Jack the Ripper

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Any visitors to this thread please feelfree to make comments, suggestions,

ask questions etc. I want a real lively debate over this case. Later I shall

post my own theories (a few surprises I promise you.)

Thanks ,Steve.

[Shanet Clark]

Good research, well presented.

I read the Prince Jack paperback, and a pretty scathing examination of Prince Jack. So I am open to a more solidly based theme. What do you all think of the Duke of Clarence theme? Is it totally debunked or still a contender? The weaknesses and fictions in the paperbaack were fairly obvious, but the tie in with the letter and the royal tutor?

(it has been a few years)

[Don Jeffries]

I do feel that there was some kind of Royal involvement in the Ripper murders, though I am unsure about the exact nature of that involvement. I think that either the Duke of Clarence (Prince Eddy) himself may have been the Ripper (as postulated in "Prince Jack"), or he may have been connected via his tutor James Stephen, who was a strange and interestting character (his poetry was laced with really obscene and violent passages about females). I tend more towards the Stephen Knight thesis, however, which theorized that Freemasonry played a hand in the killings, and maintained there were a trio of killers, with Royal surgeon Sir William Gull the actual murderer. "Jack The Ripper:The Final Solution" is still my favorite work on the subject, although I know that most Ripperologists don't share my view, and have tended to dismiss any allegations about the Royal family. Of course, that only tends to make naturally suspicious guys like me believe it a little more strongly.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Good research, well presented.

I read the Prince Jack paperback, and a pretty scathing examination of Prince Jack. So I am open to a more solidly based theme.  What do you all think of the Duke of Clarence theme? Is it totally debunked or still a contender? The weaknesses and fictions in the paperbaack were fairly obvious, but the tie in with the letter and the royal tutor?

(it has been a few years)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shanet & Don

James Kenneth Stephen was roped in for entertainment value, William Gull,

Walter sickert, & John Netley were emphatically not Britain's Watergate,more

Ripperology's Piltdown Men. Prince Eddy, who was in Yorkshire & Scotland

on the dates of the murders,proved an irresistible soap opera lure because

he was royalty. The Ripper suspects must be viewed in a harsh light, when we

look at them in nitty-gritty terms, you will find that virtually all of them(Ostrog

Kosminski,Stephenson,Chapman,Maybrick etc) are flights of fancy.

I belive the answer's are much simpler, and later I will present evidence against

the MURDERERS,of three of the woman.Namely Turner/Tabram,Stride,& Kelly.

Thank's for your interest. Steve.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

THE THIRD CANONICAL VICTIM ELIZABETH "LONG LIZ "STRIDE (1843-88)

Elizabeth Stride,was born near Gothenburg, Sweden in 1843. Her father

was Gustaf Ericsson a farmer, & her Mother was Beata. On 25 April 1865

she gave birth to a still born girl, & was twice treated for venereal disease.

In 1866 she moved to London,& married John Stride,there was no issue

John Stridedied in 1884. Liz then lived with one Michael Kidney A dockside

labourer for roughly three years from 1885.

During 1887-88 Stride had eight D & D charges at thames Magistrates Court.

On 27 sept, Stride took up lodgings at 32, Flower & Dean St after leaving Kidney

on 25 Sept. Her main income at this time was from prostitution.

THE MURDER.

29 Sept 6-30pm, She was seen in the Queen's Head public house, Commercial

St, by Elizabeth Tanner,deputy of Stride's common lodging house. They drank

together then walked back to the lodging house.

7-8pm, seen by Charles Preston, a Barber, & Catherine Lane a cleaner at 32

Flower & Dean St.

11-pm,two labourers J Best & J Gardner, saw a woman they belived to be

Stride,outside the, Bricklayers Arms in Settle St. Stride was with a man

(description 5ft 5ins, smartly dressed in black suit & black hat,with a

thick moustache) Best teased the couple, saying the man was "Leather

Apron".

11-12pm, Mathew Packer, claimed to have sold grapes to the couple (much

disputed testimony.)

11-45pm William Marshall, was standing outside his lodgings at 64, Berner St

He saw a man & woman outside, the couple kissed & the man

remarked "You would say anything but your prayers" They then

headed in the direction of Dutfields Yard.(description 5ft 6ins well

dressed, dark clothing, middle aged.)

30 Sept 12-30am,Walking his beat PC, William Smith observed a man & woman

in Berner St. (description 5ft 7in 30-35 years old, dark

moustache, wearing a black coat dark hat, white collar & tie

& carrying paper parcel 18 ins long 6-8 ins wide.)

12-45am, Israel Schwartz,walked passed the gates of the,International Workmen's

Club in Berner St. he saw a man stop & talk to a woman who was

standing in the gateway.(description 5ft 5 ins dark jacket, dark hat

light moustache,) he tried to pull the woman into the street,she

screamed and he threw her to the ground. Schwartz later identified

Stride's body as the woman he saw.

1-00am, Louis Diemschutz Steward of the Berner St club, noticed a small heap on

the ground. he prodded it then descended & lit a match. It was the body

of a woman. he ran to the club to get help. once outside they could see

blood by the body. her right arm was over her belly,her hands & Wrists

were covered with blood,& her throat was cut. At this point two men

hurried off to find a constable.

NEXT LIZ STRIDES POST MORTEM

.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

POST-MORTEM OF ELIZABETH STRIDE.

1stOct,3pm, Dr Phillips & Dr Blackwell conducted.

They found a long gash in Strides throat,a clean incision from left to right

about six inches in length. There were no other cuts or marks to suggest

strangulation. There were however pressure marks on both shoulders,

under the collar bones.

Both doctors agreed that cause of death had been haemorrhage resulting from the

severance of the LEFT carotid artery. This injury could have been inflicted in

seconds.

Contrary to a few histrionic newspaper reports, Stride was not clutching

grapes in her hand when she was killed. and no residue was found in her stomach

at P/M.

NEXT "DOUBLE EVENT" CATHERINE EDDOWES

[Guest Stephen Turner]

FORTH CANONICAL VICTIM CATHERINE EDDOWES (1842-88)

Catherine Eddowes was born in Wolverhampton in 1842. Her father was

George Eddowes,a tinplate worker, Mother Catharine.

Between 1861-1863 she lived with Thomas Conway,who was a pensioned

soldier (18th Royal Irish Reg). At sometime in 1881 they seperated &

Catherine had custody of her Daughter Annie. For the past Seven Years

she had lived withJohn Kelly,a porter,loding at 55 Flower & Dean St.

THE MURDER.

27 Sept,Eddowes & Kelly returned to London, after several months hop

picking in Kent.

29 Sept 10-11am,Eddowes was turned out of the casual ward,& went to

flower & Dean St to see Kelly.

2pm, The couple parted company in Houndsditch,Eddowes going off

in search of money.

8-30 pm,PC Louis Robinson & PC George Simmons took Eddowes to

Bishopegate Police Station because she had been drunkenly

causing a disturbance by imitating a fire engine.

8-50pm, PC Robinson looked in on her. She was asleep & stunk of

alcohol.

12-55 am, A relatively sober Eddowes is brought up from the cells. When

Discovered the time,she tells PC Hunt,"I shall get a damn

fine hiding when I get home" He reply's "serves you right".

1-00am (The time Liz Stride was discovered in Berner St) Eddowes leaves

the Station crying "All right. "Goodnight old cock"These were her

last recorded words.

1-30am, PC Edward Watkins passes by Mitre Square. He doesnt see

anything suspicious.

1-34am, Joseph Lawende, Joseph Hyam Levy,& Harry Harris,left the

Imperial Club at 16-17 Dukes place. They saw a man and

woman talking. Lawende & Levy later identified Eddowes

cloths as those worn by the woman they saw(Description of

suspect. 5ft 8ins about 30 years old,dark coloured jacket

and hat,fair complection,

1-40 am PC James Harvey reaches the entrance to mitre square, but

does not enter.

1-45am, PC Edward Watkins enters Mitre square, & discovers the body of

Catherine Edowes in the southwest corner of the square, lying

on her back in a pool of blood. her throat was cut. her cloths

were above her waist, herstomach was ripped open, & her b

bowels were protruding.

NEXT "THE GOULSTON STREET GRAFITTI"

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Greetings!

Before I post on the grafitti,I should like to pose a question to members,

about the "Double Event". As an aide to memory here is a time-line

of events.

ELIZABETH STRIDE.

6-30pm,Stride visits Queen's Head,Dorset St. (Witness Liz Tanner.)

7-00pm, At Lodging House,F & Dean St (C. Preston & C.Lane )

7-00-11-00pm,Movements unknown.

11-00pm, Drinking with man in, Bricklayers Arms. (J. Best & J. Gardner.)

11-45pm, At 63 Berner St with a man. ( W. Marshall.)

12-30am, Outside Workmans club corner Commercial St (PC Smith )

12-35am, Walking past club, M Eagle(Witness) see's nothing suspicious.

12-45am Outside Club, being attacked by two men? one of the men shouts

"Lipski" at witness, I. Schwartz.

1-00am, L. Diemschultz discovers Strides body, inside court-yard of Berner

St Club.

CATHARINE EDDOWES.

2-00-8-00pm, Movements unknown.

8-30pm, Arrested by, PC Robinson, D&D in Aldgate High St.

12-55am, Released from protective custody,Bishopgate P/Station

(Witness PC G Hunt.)

1-30am, PC Watkins, passes though Mitre Sq, see's nothing suspicious.

1-35am, Seen by Lawende, Levy, & Harris at the entrance to Mitre Sq.

1-40am, PC Harvey arrives at entrance to, MItre Sq. He see's ntohing

suspicous.

1-45am,Body discovered by, PC Watkins in Mitre Sq.

And now the question. You will observe that the killer had between 12-45am

to 1-00am,to have inflicted further injuries to Stride, other than the cut to

the Carotid Artery, in all the other murders much more damage was done

to the victims, yet he breaks his M/O & walks three quarters of a mile,with

the Police hard at his heals, finda another victim, kills her, inflicts the

multiple wounds that he did not on Stride.Leaves part of her blood soaked

apron in Goulston St, and disappears into the mist. Does this scenario

make any sence if the same person killed both women?

[Guest Stephen Turner]

THE GOULSTON STREET GRAFITTI.

2-55am, PC Long passed though Goulston St for the second time on his

beat. He saw a piece of bloody apron on the floor of a stairway

leading to 108-119, Wentworth Model Dwellings, Goulston St. the

peice of ripped material matched the apron worn by Catharine

Eddowes. Above the material was a message written in white chalk

"THE JUWES ARE THE MEN THAT WILL NOT BE BLAMMED FOR

NOTHING" There has been a great deal of dispute over the meaning

of the message, Because it is not clear whether the Jews should be

blamed oe excluded from the murders, or whether the word JUWES

even means Jews. The message was seen by many as the rippers

calling card,But it could well have beenon the wall for days

The message was conected with the murders, because it seemed

to be a comment on the rise in Anti-Semitism during the Whitechapel

murders. There is no photographic record of the evidence, because

Sir Charles Warren ordered it to be erased,this was done at 5-30am

with the hope of preventing further Anti- Semitism. The piece of

apron was given to DR Phillips at Golden Lane Mortuary. it was the

only physical clue ever left by Jack.

NEXT, THE POST-MORTEM OF CATHARINE EDDOWES.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

POST-MORTEM OF CATHARINE EDDOWES.

BY DR BROWN, OBSERVED BY DR SEQUEIRA.

There was a cut of one quarter inch through the left lower eyelid,

the right eyelid was cut through. There was a deep cut over the

bridge of the nose down to the angle of the jaw (right side).The

tip of the nose was sliced off

The throat was slit across the gash about 6-7 ins in length. The

larynx was severed below the vocal chords.

The cause of death was Haemorrhage from the left common

carotid artery.

The front walls of the abdomen were laid open from the breast

bone to the pubes. There was an incision into the liver of 2-3 Ins.

There was a stab on the left side of the groin, and an incision about

3 Ins below this.

The pancreas was cut but not removed. the left kidney was taken out

and removed by the killer. The womb was cut through horizontally

and taken away with some of the ligaments

Dr Brown surmised that the victim must have been lying on the ground

when the wounds were inflicted. & all the injuries were performed by a

sharpe pointed knife,6 Ins in length.

NEXT "DEAR BOSS- FROM HELL" YOURS TRULY JACK THE RIPPER.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Before I post on the ripper letters, lets see if we can get a debate

going. Of the four victims posted so far, I belive one can almost

certainly be atributed to a second murderer. Care to speculate on

which.( There's a rather large clue in post #23). Good luck.

[Don Jeffries]

Before I post on the ripper letters, lets see if we can get a debate

going. Of the four victims posted so far, I belive one can almost

certainly be atributed to a second murderer. Care to speculate on

which.( There's a rather large clue in post #23). Good luck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you must be talking about Elizabeth Stride. Conventional wisdom has had it that the Ripper was interrupted just after he'd begun his grisly work, and thus didn't finish the job according to his usual standards. This murder was the only one with a reliable witness who reported seeing the victim in a suspicious interaction with someone (in this case, a physical altercation with two men) just prior to being killed. Of course, the fact that the witness reported seeing two men together has led some to speculate that this is evidence of more than one person being involved in the murders. Who knows? Thanks for posting all this good stuff.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Before I post on the ripper letters, lets see if we can get a debate

going. Of the four victims posted so far, I belive one can almost

certainly be atributed to a second murderer. Care to speculate on

which.( There's a rather large clue in post #23). Good luck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you must be talking about Elizabeth Stride. Conventional wisdom has had it that the Ripper was interrupted just after he'd begun his grisly work, and thus didn't finish the job according to his usual standards. This murder was the only one with a reliable witness who reported seeing the victim in a suspicious interaction with someone (in this case, a physical altercation with two men) just prior to being killed. Of course, the fact that the witness reported seeing two men together has led some to speculate that this is evidence of more than one person being involved in the murders. Who knows? Thanks for posting all this good stuff.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don.

Thanks for your continued interest.

SPOT ON MY MAN, I belive Liz Stride was murdered by one of the men

Schartz see's her with. Ifurther belive that I can name her killer. & hope

to do so,BEYOND RESONABLE DOUBT. But as in all good soap opera's

I'll leave it there for now. anyone else care to comment? Have a good

Easter Don. Now " FROM HELL ".

[Guest Stephen Turner]

FROM HELL " YOURS TRULY JACK THE RIPPER."

27th Sept 1888,The central news agency recieved a letter from someone

who called himself " Jack the Ripper." This was the first time the

nickname was used, & it soon replaced " Leather Apron "

The letter which started " Dear Boss "was written in red ink as the writer

could not use blood because it went, " thick like glue." The writer

mocked the police investigation,& then stated that he was " down on

whores " & would not stop " ripping" them until he was " buckled." He

proudly asserts that he gave the last one no time to " squeal " & said

that he intended to clip the next victims ears off & send them to the police,

" just for jolly ".He requested that the letter be "kept back " until he had

done "a bit more work ".It was signed "Yours truly/ Jack the Ripper".

1st Oct, the day after the " double event "a postcard ,which was apparently

bloodstained, was sent to the CNA from "JACK THE RIPPER" .It told the

agency that they would hear about a "double event". Caused by "Saucy

Jack"on the following day. He wrote that the first victim" (Liz Stride.)

"squealed a bit "& that he could not kill her immediately. He did not have

time to get the victims ears for the police. He then thanked the agency

for holding back the letter until he had killed again.

NEXT " I SEND YOU HALF THE KIDNE" (Sic).

[Shanet Clark]

Stephen and Don

Just got back from offline. Will send comments soon. Great thread, people are reading it, I am sure, so don't get discouraged....so Clarence was a false trail, I thought so...more later

Shanet