The Communication Breakdown

[Mark Stapleton]

I have no idea what Dillion may or may not have done, since he has never entered my areas of research. Therefore, I am neutral. I believe I may read Sorenson, as Tim suggests.

I am just no longer into the Political picture as I once was. I will also add that I am in fact, a registered Republican and I also voted for Nixon. At the time. I believed Nixon was the best man for the job, so to speak. I did not approve of the Kenendy's and their lifestyles. Most likely I also believed all the Right Wing Propaganda of that era....although nothing extreme.

  I also believed that because Nixon had been VP under Ike, that he would be the best President. I was also a very different type person, then I am today. Today, I do not stick to the Republican nor the Democrat platform If I choose to vote, I darn sure would vote for whomever I choose to vote for. I did not vote for our current President, nor am I pleased with him. I have had some major exchanges with close relatives who believe our current President is the greatest thing, this country has ever had. and exactly what this country needs. Needless to say I do not agree!!

It was for a long time, very hard for me to even think that Nixon would do all that has been proclaimed about him in Watergate. I wanted to believe there were other answers that would hopefully exonerate him. But then one day, I did accept the truth. He was not whom, or what I had believed him to be. For sure, I did not want to believe he may have had, at the very least, prior knowledge, about JFK's Assassination. Yet, the more I have looked at what all went down in regard to Nixon and the day of the Assn. I do accept the possibility, he may have had prior knowledge. I do not know this to be fact and even hate to believe it might be true, but I do now have to re-evaluate my previous beliefs.

Just because I did not vote for JFK, does not indicate that I was not distraught over his assn.

In fact, I have been studying the Assn for many years. ...probably since the day it occurred. This was our country's President and he was assn. right on the street for the world to see. This was unreal....such things do not occur in our country. Yet they do, and they did. Perhaps my nievenes changed on that day!

Now on to friend turning against friend! I have to believe it does happen...a whole lot.

Lets play, "what if"......

You are a Member of a Board of Directors and the Chairman, who is also your friend, is making some very bad decisions. He just will not listen to reason from the rest of the board directors. Somehow, this is affecting the whole Company. They are all screaming at the board to do something! Eventualy the board members decides to have a secret meeting, although probably unethical. Yet you all do feel justified, under the circumstances.

It is unanimous that somehing has to be done and matters taken into your own hands. Could be, since he is your friend you might volunteer to speak with him just one more time. So you do so and it is to no avail.

Another secret meeting is held and it is decided he has to go, in the best interests of the company. This hurts you very much, to turn against your friend and to be involved in a conspiracy to get rid of him. Then, another meeting is called, with the Chairman invited this time to be there. He is going to be asked to resign and if he refuses to do so, then other measures will need to be taken.

So......the day before the planned meeting, this Chairman has been found murdered. Now what? You did plot to get rid of him, even though murder was not in your head at all. ..and after all, this was your friend. So, it has never been proven who murdered him or even the reason. Perhaps there is also a cover up, among the board members, who do not ever reveal that there was a plan to get rid of him. Even if you decided to come clean and tell the truth, who is actually going to believe you? It is only your word against the rest of the board members. You even feel that one among you, did murder him, yet you really don't even know which board member it was, or even if it might have been the real plan and you were not privy to it.

It is very easy to say that we would speak out...but then there is also our family to think about. besides maybe our own life and livlihood. So, you had turned against your friend and conspired to get rid of him and yet you had belived it was for the right reasons and you also had no pre-knowledge that murdering him was involved. So, in this instance, are you guilty or not? You are definitely, at least guilty of a cover-up...and you cannot prove you had no pre-knowledge of a murder plan.

I believe this actualy did occur among some factions who believed that JFK had to go. I also believe this was all brought about, by the Fascist Regime., all the way up to the Military, to implement. Perhaps to some, this meant an impeachment by the Judicial process and not as a murder on the street. Yet, it did happen and was a real coup. ...and some who would not have gone along with such a plan, were perhaps caught up in the coversup, even though they have no idea what actually occurred, or I should also say, who was actually involved in the coup.

Friends do turn on friends, but usually it is for a bigger purpose, then the friendship can support. Unfortunately, sometimes there is, (whether right or wrong) a matter of principals before personalities.

What I am trying to say is that we cannot always make a blanket statement that a friend will not turn on a friend. I have no idea if Dillion turned on JFK or not. He may have or may not have. However, we always do need to research more then one or two books, that might actually be slanted one way or the other. If I choose to study about Dillion, (or anyone else) I will check out several sources of information, before even attempting to make a decision about him.

I do realize these are only my own opinions which I felt compelled to express in this thread.

Dixie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dixie,

Nice post. Good points. I'm the same. Without pre-judging him, he's got strong connections with banking and finance and that sector wasn't in JFK's good books. Also, he was boss of the Secret Service. I'm going to research him too-- Bernice's material looks like a good start.

[Mark Stapleton]

Bernice,

Many thanks for the material. Lucky I've got tomorrow off. This could be very interesting.

[Greg Wagner]

Hi Bernice-

Great posts!

If you, or anyone out there, has a copy of the 1963 book The Torch Is Passed, there is a great photo on page 71 titled "The Nation's Military Leaders In The Funeral Procession."

Unfortunately, I am having trouble with my scanner and can't get it digitized. If someone could post that photo, it would be most appropriate on this thread. It's haunting.

There's also a photo of a very troubled looking Ike on page 82. One wonders, given the comments he made in his farewell address and his knowledge of these military leaders, if he suspected the truth as soon as he heard about Dallas.

[Stan Wilbourne]

Dammit, Greg. Now you have me anxious to see those photographs. Anyone?

Whomever was behind the Kennedy assassination -- FWIW, I think that power was the Eastern Establishment/American Banking/US War Industry -- it could not have been accomplished without the approval and co-operation of the US military. Of course, the military could've been used, just like Oswald, just like the Cubans, just like the CIA. The men in the shadows are never seen. That's part of their power. They throw out all the rest for us to consider and digest. David Atlee Philllips, James Angleton, E. Howard Hunt, The Tramps, Multiple Oswalds, Badgeman, Texas Oil, LBJ and Hoover, Richard Nixon, Guy Banister, David Ferrie. So we can play the popular board game of, "Who Killed John F. Kennedy?". Over forty years now, and still...that's true power.

What differentiates the military from US Banking and the War Industry?

What happens to a president when he f*cks with the Federal Reserve?

For whom did John McCloy and Allen Dulles really work? If you answer that question, I think you get really close to the center of the conspiracy that murdered John Kennedy.

[Christopher T. George]

Hi Bernice-

Great posts!

If you, or anyone out there, has a copy of the 1963 book The Torch Is Passed, there is a great photo on page 71 titled "The Nation's Military Leaders In The Funeral Procession."

Unfortunately, I am having trouble with my scanner and can't get it digitized. If someone could post that photo, it would be most appropriate on this thread. It's haunting.

There's also a photo of a very troubled looking Ike on page 82. One wonders, given the comments he made in his farewell address and his knowledge of these military leaders, if he suspected the truth as soon as he heard about Dallas.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Greg

Not perhaps what you were looking for exactly but sobering nonetheless, the following is the official order of procession for a dead U.S. head of state or other dignitary as laid down by military rules.

All the best

Chris George

As quoted in "The Last Salute: Civil and Military Funerals 1921-1969" present at the funeral of President Kennedy were:

". . . a special honor guard composed of the joint Chiefs of Staff and led by General Maxwell D. Taylor. The White House military aides, Maj. Gen. Chester V. Clifton of the Army, Capt. Tazewell Shepard of the Navy, and Brig. Gen. Godfrey T. McHugh of the Air Force, followed them. Behind these officers was the national color de­tail, two men from the Army and one each from the Marine Corps, Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard. . ." (see Chapter XXIII. President John F. Kennedy State Funeral, 22-25 November 1963.

Best regards

Chris George

[Pat Speer]

What happens to a president when he f*cks with the Federal Reserve?

For whom did John McCloy and Allen Dulles really work?  If you answer that question, I think you get really close to the center of the conspiracy that murdered John Kennedy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stan, while I agree there could have been some meetings of the power elite, the more I research using primary sources, that is, reading the actual Warren Commission hearings and not someone else's account of them, and reading interviews of the men involved, the more I'm convinced that men like McCloy and Dulles were not a knowing part of a conspiracy.

They didn't need to be. A late 1960's book by a CBS employee named Stephen White, called Should We Now Believe The Warren Report?, which of course concludes yes, nevertheless includes a profound chapter questioning the basic make-up of the Commission. He points out that the Commissioners had all spent the majority of their long careers serving in Government, and were unlikely to conclude against or call into question the Government itself. Furthermore, White makes the astute point that most of these men were lawyers, and that all of the counsel spearheading the investigation were lawyers, and ambitious lawyers at that, and that lawyers, by their training, are not truth-seekers and are instead taught to twist truth to the advantage of their client. White, defender that he is of the over-all conclusions, nevertheless considers the make-up of the Commission a disastrous mistake, as he concludes that the lawyers involved in the Commission could only have interpreted that the U.S. Government, and the President himself, were their clients, and that their purpose was to present as strong a case as possible presenting the Government's prescribed view, which was that Oswald did it alone. This is important. No one had to say anything. The climate was such that the men just instinctively followed the lead of Warren and Rankin, and sought to close doors and cut off areas of investigation that might lead to uncomfortable places.

If you look back at the writings and words of Wesley Liebeler, David Belin, Arlen Specter, and even John McCloy, they all agree that the Commission fell short in some areas. If you look closely at the HSCA, whose members did not represent the power elite, they made as many or more mistakes.

Anyhow, I'm now of the opinion that Dulles and McCloy were not part of a cabal. While Ford was apparently informing Hoover of the Commission's every move, I think he did this out of a misguided sense of duty rather than out of a desire to implement a cover-up. (Ford was never completely satisfied there was no foreign involvement--I'm surprised Tim hasn't brought this up yet.) Ironically, the one member of the Commission who I suspect knowingly covered-up evidence he knew was important to the investigation was Warren. I find it extremely hard to believe he didn't understand the importance of the photos and x-rays. For him to refuse to put them in the record was one thing, but for him to refuse to let the doctors who performed the autopsy look at them was both stupid and insane. Additionally, it seems he spread the word to others--both McCloy and Specter later repeated this lie--that the Kennedy family had custody of the pictures and was very protective of them. The truth is that the Kennedy's never had or saw the pictures during the life of the Warren Commission, and that both the HSCA testimony of Nicholas Katzenbach and Specter's internal WC memo of April 30 reveal that Bobby had agreed they could be used if necessary.

Since both Warren and the Johnson tapes assert that Johnson told Warren there could be a nuclear war if he didn't run the commission, it seems likely that Warren himself was concerned the autopsy photos and x-rays would prove conspiracy, and that therefore they weren't necessary.

What I'm getting at is that there was no need for any cabal or whatever to control anyone outside of Warren, and we know he was ordered by his commander-in-chief to serve his President. The smoke-filled room we all envision may just be a puff of smoke from an LBJ cigarette.

Edited June 13, 2005 by Pat Speer

[Ron Ecker]

it could not have been accomplished without the approval and co-operation of the US military.

Operation Northwoods was the brainchild of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. It's all there in official writing. The JFK assassination was a logical, souped-up extension of it. Commit an atrocity and blame it on Castro. "Let's see, what's the best atrocity that we could commit . . . JFK shot us down before. Wonder if Johnson or Hoover or CIA have any ideas."

Ron

[Greg Wagner]

Dammit, Greg.  Now you have me anxious to see those photographs.  Anyone?

Whomever was behind the Kennedy assassination -- FWIW, I think that power was the Eastern Establishment/American Banking/US War Industry -- it could not have been accomplished without the approval and co-operation of the US military.  Of course, the military could've been used, just like Oswald, just like the Cubans, just like the CIA.  The men in the shadows are never seen.  That's part of their power.  They throw out all the rest for us to consider and digest.  David Atlee Philllips,  James Angleton, E. Howard Hunt, The Tramps, Multiple Oswalds,  Badgeman, Texas Oil, LBJ and Hoover, Richard Nixon, Guy Banister, David Ferrie.  So we can play the popular board game of, "Who Killed John F. Kennedy?".  Over forty years now, and still...that's true power.

What differentiates the military from US Banking and the War Industry?

What happens to a president when he f*cks with the Federal Reserve?

For whom did John McCloy and Allen Dulles really work?  If you answer that question, I think you get really close to the center of the conspiracy that murdered John Kennedy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Stan-

Mark Knight was kind enough to email me a copy of the photo from page 71, but neither one of us has had any success uploading it to this thread. I'll make another attempt this evening.

If the military leadership of the U.S. were the prime movers, they were most likely acting under a scenario similar to the one Shanet suggets, which means they felt Kennedy was unfit, dangerous, and perhaps even treasonous. And for those reasons, the rationalizations surely went, they had to do their duty to protect the Country.

Even if they had convinced themselves of that, what about the many dead witnesses? American citizens murdered, intimidated, and wrongfully "discredited"? What about the countless lies told to the People by their government resulting in the destruction of every shred of official credibility? And of course, the complete subversion of our most basic underlying democratic principles.

Talk about "domino theory." What a mess.

[Greg Wagner]

Double post... sorry.

Edited June 13, 2005 by Greg Wagner

[Stan Wilbourne]

Pat, that makes sense. After reading Harrison Livingstone's books on this case, I believe there is a strong possibility the conspiracy to kill JFK was conceived and executed from a Texas base. It could be that the eastern banking interests were served -- a lot of powerful interests would've benefited from Kennedy's death -- but not central to the origins of the plot. LBJ, the Texas war-making appartus, and a few key military people (Cabell and perhaps Taylor) could've done the deed.

Donald Gibson's book, "Battling Wallstreet", however, takes a different slant. His question is who sent Dulles and McCloy. That angle I find intriguing. United Fruit, and all of that.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Pat. I always enjoy reading what you have to say.

[Mark Stapleton]

Dammit, Greg.  Now you have me anxious to see those photographs.  Anyone?

Whomever was behind the Kennedy assassination -- FWIW, I think that power was the Eastern Establishment/American Banking/US War Industry -- it could not have been accomplished without the approval and co-operation of the US military.  Of course, the military could've been used, just like Oswald, just like the Cubans, just like the CIA.  The men in the shadows are never seen.  That's part of their power.  They throw out all the rest for us to consider and digest.  David Atlee Philllips,  James Angleton, E. Howard Hunt, The Tramps, Multiple Oswalds,  Badgeman, Texas Oil, LBJ and Hoover, Richard Nixon, Guy Banister, David Ferrie.  So we can play the popular board game of, "Who Killed John F. Kennedy?".  Over forty years now, and still...that's true power.

What differentiates the military from US Banking and the War Industry?

What happens to a president when he f*cks with the Federal Reserve?

For whom did John McCloy and Allen Dulles really work?  If you answer that question, I think you get really close to the center of the conspiracy that murdered John Kennedy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stan,

"What differentiates the military from US Banking and the War industry?". Good question. There's a bit of circumstantial evidence which points to the Federal Reserve, owned by major U.S. and European Banking interests. This was the removal of the notes printed under the JFK Administration which omitted reference to the FR and replaced it with "United States Banknote". Their swift removal from circulation after JFK's death might mean nothing. If so it's another coincidence.

[Ron Ecker]

I think the Federal Reserve in the JFK case may be a red herring. Economics is over my head (all I know about it is that power corrupts and there's enough of it), but see this link, which seems to make sense somewhat, even to me:

http://www.floodlight.org/theory/flaherty6.htm

Ron

[Stan Wilbourne]

Hey Mark, I see you're posting today. The only conclusion I can draw is that you've done a little speed reading and made it through the Sorenson bio on JFK. You're such a bad boy.

[Greg Wagner]

Photo from pg. 71 of the 1963 book, The Torch Is Passed.

The caption reads, "The Nation's Military Leaders In The Funeral Procession."

I've got Max Taylor and Curt LeMay. Can anyone ID the others?

[James Richards]

I've got Max Taylor and Curt LeMay. Can anyone ID the others? (Greg Wagner)

Hi Greg,

Yep, Taylor front left, LeMay front right. I believe that is Gen. Earle Wheeler behind Taylor and Adm. David McDonald behind LeMay. At the back on the left could be Gen. John McConnell but I'm not 100% on that one.

FWIW.

James