Mike Perez Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 Well I quess The criminal justice system is no longer America. What with the O. J. trial and now the Michael jackson trial, all of you people that dont live in the United States can now see how thing operate in the the good old U.S.A. If you're black and rich you can get by with murder. Why, because God forbid we would accuse a Black man of committing a violent act in this country. I have worked in Law enforcement since 1985, And I will be the first to admit that I am embarrassed because of our criminal justice system. I don't want top sound like a racist, but I am sure if Al Carrier is reading this he will say the same thing I am saying. He may work in a city that is bigger that the one i work in, b ut I have worked in a ith that is bigger than Waterloo, Iowa. Al I know how big Waterloo is i was born and raised in Oelwein. But I've worked in Little Rock Ar. which is bigger than Waterloo and let me tell you things are different down South. But what has happened in California 2 times in the last 10 to 15 yearsd is ridicules, everybody and they're dog knew O.J. was guilty and the same holds true for Michael Jackson. The only thing that go0t Simpson off was his lawyer playing the RACE card. Just let a WHITE man try that. and the same holds true for Jackson. I am so sick of this that it almost makes me feel like turning my badge. After all what good does it do is the person you arrest for a crime, no matter how gui;ty the evidence shows them to be, if thjey walk at the end of the trial just because of WHO they are or WHAT they are...... I do want to apoligize to the forum for blasting off, but the frustration level is real high right now. John move this subject wherever you see that it fits, I understand Thanks for letting me vent!!!!!!!!!! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Cheslock Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 Well I quess The criminal justice system is no longer America. What with the O. J. trial and now the Michael jackson trial, all of you people that dont live in the United States can now see how thing operate in the the good old U.S.A. If you're black and rich you can get by with murder. Why, because God forbid we would accuse a Black man of committing a violent act in this country. I have worked in Law enforcement since 1985, And I will be the first to admit that I am embarrassed because of our criminal justice system. I don't want top sound like a racist, but I am sure if Al Carrier is reading this he will say the same thing I am saying. He may work in a city that is bigger that the one i work in, b ut I have worked in a ith that is bigger than Waterloo, Iowa. Al I know how big Waterloo is i was born and raised in Oelwein. But I've worked in Little Rock Ar. which is bigger than Waterloo and let me tell you things are different down South. But what has happened in California 2 times in the last 10 to 15 yearsd is ridicules, everybody and they're dog knew O.J. was guilty and the same holds true for Michael Jackson. The only thing that go0t Simpson off was his lawyer playing the RACE card. Just let a WHITE man try that. and the same holds true for Jackson. I am so sick of this that it almost makes me feel like turning my badge. After all what good does it do is the person you arrest for a crime, no matter how gui;ty the evidence shows them to be, if thjey walk at the end of the trial just because of WHO they are or WHAT they are......I do want to apoligize to the forum for blasting off, but the frustration level is real high right now. John move this subject wherever you see that it fits, I understand Thanks for letting me vent!!!!!!!!!! Mike <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Mike: Your frustration is coming through loud and strong. You mentioned the "American criminal justice system is no longer America." If we look at the system working in the opposite direction, as in how Lee Harvey Oswald was treated, we get a good idea as to how the "system" can be flexible enough to be biased in both ways. In Oswald's case, the media played both judge and jury and found him guilty in the pages of its newspapers, and on the air waves of its television and radio programs. The Warren Commission appointed Walter E. Craig, president of the American Bar Association, to represent Oswald during the Commission hearings, three months after the formation of the Commission. Not once did Craig cross examine a witness. And Craig was present to "protect" Oswald's rights for only eight testimonies before the Commission. So when you say that you "are embarrassed because of our criminal justice system," your statement could've been said during the WC hearings over forty years ago. Some things in this country do not change, Mike. In my opinion, Mike, the American system has been corrupt for many years now. When is the last time a millionaire was sent to the death chamber?? Bill Cheslock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 Didn't Mac Wallace get probation for first degree murder? Yes, I would agree that the system has been corrupt for many years now. As for Michael Jackson, I didn't know he was black. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Eldreth Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Ron that was a little humor. My feeling exactly though on OJ and Jackson and I vented the same exact words today. NO JUSTICE in US today maybe we need to get rid of our old system and get a new one. Like no more on the jury stand get rid of them if they can't know right from wrong. Have a persons that no one knows who be on the jury and with a law degree but you know I thought about that as well and somehow doubt if even that would work. I am not sure if it is because of skin color but I stated it seems to be the fame thing and as well as that one that has money. The poor person can't afford to take things to trial and the rich get away with it. There is not any form of justice today. Take a president like one that some Senators wish to bring down HE IS DOWN just because of their wish. Clinton vs. truth about Monica, people wished him out because of other issues silence in the White House on the Nixon visit. Nixon vs. truth about money, power, justice Kennedy vs. didn't wish to get into war, Judy, Bay of Pigs mess up vs. Bobby Kennedy as well and what ever was behind that mess up, Hoover and his gayness. Lincoln vs. Freedom of slaves act, power to the south more behind it all. OK so if we wish to bring down someone has to be someone powerful and wanting him out of office dead or alive. IF we ourselves wish for justice we don't get it unless we ourselves are rich and powerful. If we are against one that is for reasons of child abuse or murder and they are powerful famous people, miles well not have a trail than. Throw it out the window, it goes no where. I hope the families of these children do go civil suit and get Jackson hard or someone rich and powerful pays off one of Jackson guards to get a secret camera in his living areas and make lots of films. GO GET HIM. For once I would love to see somebody who does wrongful acts of injustice get it and not get away with it. I should say spare our president now, but in truth I would love to see him be impeached, too. Airing out more, In truth I do think Bush Sr. and Jr. have more crimes behind them that are far more serious than all of Clinton's Nixon's and also JFK and Robert Kennedy's, Bay of Pigs mess. Can't see any wrong on Lincoln. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Gratz Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 (edited) 1. Jackson did not get away with murder, literally. Figuratively, perhaps. 2. It is my understanding there were few if any blacks on the Jacjson jury so "the race card" does not explain the Jackson verdict. Celebrity, perhaps. 3. From news accounts, I would tend to agree that Jackson was probably guilty. I too was shocked at the verdict. I would say, however, that I watched almost all of the Simpson trial on tv and it may be wrong to second-guess the jury when we were unable to hear all of the evidence and relied only on news reports. 4. Re Oswald, do any of us doubt that if he had had legal representation of the caliber of Cochran he would have been acquitted? 5. I do however share doubts about our legal experience based on two exper- iences I had as an attorney. A judge would not let me represent a friend in a criminal matter because I had formerly represented (in business organi- zation cases) two of the witnesses in the case. I sat through the case and my friend was, in my opinion, wrongfully convicted (of one of three counts against him). In a second, civil trial, I represented a child brain-damaged at birth as a result, we alleged, of the malpractice of the attending pedia- trician. The jury found the pediatrician was in fact negligent in rendering emergency care at birth but ruled against us on causation, stating it was a 50/50 matter if the negligence caused the injurues. So we lost by literally 1 per cent. The problem is the judge allowed us no rebuttal testimony (we had a pediatric neurologust ready to rebut the chief claim of the defendant's causation expert). Had we been allowed the rebuttal testimony, we are con- fident we would have won on causation. Hence my severely damaged client was denied justice because the jury was not allowed to hear all of the evi- dence. I am confident that there have probably been innocent people even executed as well as having guilty people (such as Simpson). Scheck's work on the "innocence project" demonstrates the innocent people who have been convicted. The system is clearly not perfect. But what are the ways to reform it? PS Love Ron's humour! Edited June 14, 2005 by Tim Gratz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stapleton Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Didn't Mac Wallace get probation for first degree murder? Yes, I would agree that the system has been corrupt for many years now.As for Michael Jackson, I didn't know he was black. Ron <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ron, You crack me up . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Gratz Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Wow! Mark and I are in agreement on one item anyway: Ron's humour is great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Eldreth Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 But what are the ways to reform it? Good question and one I am sure all of ask a thousand times even in our own experiences of life, when a crime is done around us. What is needed is a full proof lie decortive device, one that is one hundred per cent. Would not need witnesses only to state what they know. Would not need jury ones that can get swayed or paid off. The system we have now is terrible for sure. Some witnesses have been killed before they can make statements. Some get so discredited by their own aflections or past wrong deeds. Victims even go though worse. Also discredited so often and have to go through the whole crime scene in front of so many. Take for instances Jackson and wearing PJ's in front of a child that was abused. This had to have been a trauma to that child. Also so unfitting to the courtroom. Yes, he was put down for it. But frankly I think charges should have been made to him that day for inproper dress in a courtroom setting. He could have had one of his staff go home and get cloths and changed and made address to the fact the issues and circumstances. No it was like he was doing this on purpose. We need a new device that is full proof and made by force to take when a crime is committed. No more of this courtroom nonsenses done. Pay off's by atty. deals done by atty. over to atty. Yes, a lot of atty. out of work not really it would be only defense atty. in front of a judge. I know I am dreaming but who knows maybe one day we could have this kind of justice that is justice. I bet a lot in governments would not like this because of their own crimes? Than again maybe we all ready have it and they don't want it to be used just because of this. All a person would have to do is make statements and that would be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Gratz Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Nancy wrote: Would not need witnesses only to state what they know. Reminds me of the old cartoon where the judge has asked the defendant if the court should appoint an attorney to represent him and the defendant replies he would rather have the judge appoint witnesses for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Carrier Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Well I quess The criminal justice system is no longer America. What with the O. J. trial and now the Michael jackson trial, all of you people that dont live in the United States can now see how thing operate in the the good old U.S.A. If you're black and rich you can get by with murder. Why, because God forbid we would accuse a Black man of committing a violent act in this country. I have worked in Law enforcement since 1985, And I will be the first to admit that I am embarrassed because of our criminal justice system. I don't want top sound like a racist, but I am sure if Al Carrier is reading this he will say the same thing I am saying. He may work in a city that is bigger that the one i work in, b ut I have worked in a ith that is bigger than Waterloo, Iowa. Al I know how big Waterloo is i was born and raised in Oelwein. But I've worked in Little Rock Ar. which is bigger than Waterloo and let me tell you things are different down South. But what has happened in California 2 times in the last 10 to 15 yearsd is ridicules, everybody and they're dog knew O.J. was guilty and the same holds true for Michael Jackson. The only thing that go0t Simpson off was his lawyer playing the RACE card. Just let a WHITE man try that. and the same holds true for Jackson. I am so sick of this that it almost makes me feel like turning my badge. After all what good does it do is the person you arrest for a crime, no matter how gui;ty the evidence shows them to be, if thjey walk at the end of the trial just because of WHO they are or WHAT they are......I do want to apoligize to the forum for blasting off, but the frustration level is real high right now. John move this subject wherever you see that it fits, I understand Thanks for letting me vent!!!!!!!!!! Mike <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hey Mike, Excellent post and I could not agree more with you! The criminal justice system does not break down with the street officers or the investigators in most cases, but when it gets into the hands of the elected officials such as the prosecutors and judges. They are easily influenced by the human rights radicals screaming the race card or the higher level politicians screaming to be careful of who you prosecute. In my 22 years of service as a LE officer, I have come to accept that we can only do our duty to the best we know how and let the politicos make their deals. I tell my officers to do their job and cut no deals. There are enough deals cut beyond us. OJ walked because the jury had their mind made up before the trial started. The dream team fed them bull**** to ease what little intelligence they had into justifying their decision. Blake was a celeb and in California, it is obvious that a name and face means more than morality and justice any day. Jackson's die hard supporters lining the streets is a classic example. If a pedophile can be made out as a martyr, then God help California. And the country calls Iowa "hicks". Ever watch Jay-Walking on The Tonight Show? What a sorry bunch of Americans. If you haven't been on the big screen or the tube out their, they are clueless to who you are. Wonder how a newspaper is ever sold! Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephen Turner Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Hi All. There's an old English song that goes " Its the same the whole world over, aint it all a *!!"*@!! shame, its the rich what gets the pleasure, and the poor what gets the blame. Sums it up for me.. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Gratz Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Interesting that Al mentioned Blake. A good point. It seems that it is hard to convict celebrities. Of course it may be because they have the funds to hire the best legal defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Eldreth Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Tim you are right. It is like a cartoon. Not what I meant to say though. Witnesses would state what they would know but would not have to go through the courtroom sceen. Sorry for my not to intelligant way of wording that. Of course Witnesses would be needed but all they would need to do is outside of the courtroom statements. When a witness gets crossed examined they go though hell. This brings me back into focus on one who testified in a courtroom and changed their testimony so much it shocked the defendant's attorney when they were to speak on the case for the defendant and went against him rather than for him. Lies even go on with witnesses so often. Am I wrong on this? Even to the other side of it going against the plantiff as well sometimes when an atty. thinks they will go with what they stated to a police officer and then alter their own statements later on in a courtroom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Carrier Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Interesting that Al mentioned Blake. A good point.It seems that it is hard to convict celebrities. Of course it may be because they have the funds to hire the best legal defense. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not in all cases Tim and certainly not in Blake's. He was a second rate actor living off reruns at best. He received the level of a defense team that he did because of who he was and the media attention it would draw. Like sharks to fresh blood, they swarmed in and made a bigger name for themselves for a bigger payoff. Look at what the OJ dream team and the second rate prosecutors made through book deals and cable appearances since the OJ trial. What a sad world we live in. Clark and Darden made big bucks after losing a slam dunk case! Media sensationalism feeds the ignorant public! The sharks then draw off this and suck the system dry with their immoral greed. What ever happens to the victims and the justice they cry out for? Sorry if I am getting melodramatic here, but I too get sick of what society has evolved into since '63. Lived it in Central America under the unapproachable GHWB and continue to see the lack of justice today all over. Sometimes because of the power behind it and with this thread, the ignorance of the public who thrives on it. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Gratz Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Certainly agree with you about the OJ case and even how the losing attorneys made money from it. Did you ever read Bugliosi's book on the failings of the prosecution in the Simpson case? It's devestating. It is hard to understand how a man with a mind as sharp as Bugliosi's can subscribe to the proposition that Oswald was the sole assassin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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