Fifth floor shooter?

[James Richards]

I was wondering if anyone had a handy list of witnesses who claimed to have seen a shooter on the fifth floor? I know there were at least 2 but I have Googled around and can't seem to lock them in.

Even witnesses that claimed to have seen something unusual in the fifth floor windows would be appreciated.

Cheers,

James

[Pat Speer]

You almost certainly know this, but the fifth floor window was where Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams were crouching. Dillard caught them in his picture immediately after the shots. Nothing happened there.

If you're trying to track down whether the fifth floor was pointed out as disinfo, in order to blame the black guys and let the sixth floor men escape, it might be important that Hoover told Johnson that the shots came from the fifth floor. I wonder if he forgot which lie he was supposed to be telling.

[James Richards]

You almost certainly know this, but the fifth floor window was where Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams were crouching. Dillard caught them in his picture immediately after the shots. Nothing happened there.

If you're trying to track down whether the fifth floor was pointed out as disinfo, in order to blame the black guys and let the sixth floor men escape, it might be important that Hoover told Johnson that the shots came from the fifth floor.  I wonder if he forgot which lie he was supposed to be telling.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, Pat.

Here is the photo you cite showing Norman and Williams. Their recollections of hearing a bolt action being worked and shells hitting the floor seemed highly unlikely to me.

James

[Pat Speer]

Here is the photo you cite showing Norman and Williams. Their recollections of hearing a bolt action being worked and shells hitting the floor seemed highly unlikely to me.

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe it was only Norman who heard the shells. I also believe the WC tested whether or not someone could hear the shells hit the floor from his position and found they could.

I've studied Norman's, Williams' and Jarman's testimony, and not only found them credible, but a convincing argument for conspiracy.

[James Richards]

I believe it was only Norman who heard the shells. I also believe the WC tested whether or not someone could hear the shells hit the floor from his position and found they could.

I've studied Norman's, Williams' and Jarman's testimony, and not only found them credible, but a convincing argument for conspiracy. (Pat Speer)

Given the noise of the crowd and the buzz of the moment, I found it hard to believe that one could hear and determine that shells were hitting the floor.

That aside, it's an interesting aspect for sure.

James

[Pat Speer]

I've studied Norman's, Williams' and Jarman's testimony, and not only found them credible, but a convincing argument for conspiracy. (Pat Speer)

Given the noise of the crowd and the buzz of the moment, I found it hard to believe that one could hear and determine that shells were hitting the floor.

That aside, it's an interesting aspect for sure.

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps I should explain. None of the three men directly below the sniper's nest heard a first shot miss. They all reported activity in the car after the first shot and/or the last two shots coming right on top of each other. That the Posnerites continue to cite their testimony as proof Oswald acted alone, and get away with it, is annoying as heck.

[James Richards]

Perhaps I should explain. None of the three men directly below the sniper's nest heard a first shot miss. They all reported activity in the car after the first shot and/or the last two shots coming right on top of each other. That the Posnerites continue to cite their testimony as proof Oswald acted alone, and get away with it, is annoying as heck. (Pat Speer)

Thanks, Pat.

Given that the last two shots were reported as being on top of each other, do you consider that there were two guns firing from the 6th floor?

FWIW, my personal opinion is that there was.

James

[Pat Speer]

Given that the last two shots were reported as being on top of each other, do you consider that there were two guns firing from the 6th floor?

FWIW, my personal opinion is that there was.

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since the earwitnesss testimony indicates that a shot came from west of the TSBD but not the stockade fence, I've been in a quandary trying to figure out where the shot came from. One of the possible solutions is that the shot came from the far west window of the TSBD and just seemed west of the building.

[Al Carrier]

I believe it was only Norman who heard the shells. I also believe the WC tested whether or not someone could hear the shells hit the floor from his position and found they could.

I've studied Norman's, Williams' and Jarman's testimony, and not only found them credible, but a convincing argument for conspiracy.[/color] (Pat Speer)

Given the noise of the crowd and the buzz of the moment, I found it hard to believe that one could hear and determine that shells were hitting the floor.

That aside, it's an interesting aspect for sure.

James

Pat and James,

There are many factors that should be considered in determining the significance and reliability of Norman, Williams and Jarman's testimony in regards to the sounds over their heads. A reinactment of the event to prove that one can hear the bolt work and shell casings hit the floor and compare it to what the three wits below heard as being reliable and consistent is questionable to say the least. In a reinactment, those tested are prepared for the sounds and will focus closely on what is going on overhead. In real time and in a case of surprise or startle reaction as we would find with the three wits, there is an issue of auditory block where the much higher level of decibles of gunshots would override the immediately followed working of the bolt and shell casings hitting the floor overhead. It is highly unlikely they would hear these lighter sounds and even more unlikely they would recall hearing them. There testimony in regards to this is too convenient IMHO.

Considering there was no subfloor, the sounds would easily travel through, but the other factors I just mentioned would override the likelihood of this being reasonable. It is also interesting to note that none of the three heard footsteps overhead of the shooter fleeing the sniper's nest. These sounds would be much more audible than the sound of the bolt in action and the shell casings hitting the floor, both for the reason of the loudness of it and the fact that it would have been in the aftermath of the shots, where they could have been easily defined.

I am not saying that shots were not fired over their heads, but their precise recall and ability to depict such low level sounds overhead between gunshots is beyond being amazing. It gave the government an added earwitness to the shots on top of the physical evidence found. In other words a consistent timeline of the event to override a challenge of the planting of evidence. The three wits were simple minding and therefore easily comprimised in their testimony and recall.

Al

Edited July 21, 2005 by Al Carrier

[James Richards]

Pat and James,

There are many factors that should be considered in determining the significance and reliability of Norman, Williams and Jarman's testimony in regards to the sounds over their heads. A reinactment of the event to prove that one can hear the bolt work and shell casings hit the floor and compare it to what the three wits below heard as being reliable and consistent is questionable to say the least. In a reinactment, those tested are prepared for the sounds and will focus closely on what is going on overhead. In real time and in a case of surprise or startle reaction as we would find with the three wits, there is an issue of auditory block where the much higher level of decibles of gunshots would override the immediately followed working of the bolt and shell casings hitting the floor overhead. It is highly unlikely they would hear these lighter sounds and even more unlikely they would recall hearing them. There testimony in regards to this is too convenient IMHO.

Considering there was no subfloor, the sounds would easily travel through, but the other factors I just mentioned would override the likelihood of this being reasonable. It is also interesting to note that none of the three heard footsteps overhead of the shooter fleeing the sniper's nest. These sounds would be much more audible than the sound of the bolt in action and the shell casings hitting the floor, both for the reason of the loudness of it and the fact that it would have been in the aftermath of the shots, where they could have been easily defined.

I am not saying that shots were not fired over their heads, but their precise recall and ability to depict such low level sounds overhead between gunshots is beyond being amazing. It gave the government an added earwitness to the shots on top of the physical evidence found. In other words a consistent timeline of the event to override a challenge of the planting of evidence. The three wits were simple minding and therefore easily comprimised in their testimony and recall. (Al Carrier)

Thanks, Al.

I guess that is what I was getting at. There were plenty of distractions at the time and specifically remembering shells hitting the floor does seem a bit too neat. (IMO)

The footsteps is a good point also.

Cheers,

James

[Ryan Crowe]

Excellent post Al, you took the words right out of my mouth....