The Gerhart incident

[Lee Forman]

Shared this with Tim and he agreed it was worthy of it's own thread.

Page 146, The man on the grassy knoll - which is essentially the story of Charles Rogers. Marietta and Elmer Gerhart were Roger's neighbors - Sept 25, 1963, had 2 young anglo men show up at their door in Houston at around 9:30pm. One is dark haired, and under 6 feet -the other is taller, handsome and athletic looking. Both carrying suitcases. Dark haired man did the talking - produced some form of ID, 'Are you Mrs. Gerhart?' The Gerhart's were associated with the Lord's Church. He introduced himself as 'Lee' and his friend as 'Charles.' Though he mentioned last names, Marietta forgot them. They had just come up from New Orleans and were looking to meet with 'Carlos,' but he wasn't there - the church was apparently the rendezvous point. Lee had a hand drawn map which showed the route to the church from the bus station. Both men looked sweaty. They were invited in, and eventually to stay for dinner. They did not know Carlos last name. Lee used the phone to try to reach him.

Here's a good passage - Lee's beliefs in God were shared - paraphrased - I can't see how a God worth believing in would have put my mother in a situation where she would have had to put me and my brothers in an orphanage for awhile.

Anyway - they eat, make small talk and leave. When they go to meet up with Carlos, which they do while Elmer and Marietta watch from the window, Carlos turns out to be none other than Charles Rogers - their neighbor.

One month later, when they opened their newspaper and saw that Lee Harvey Oswald 'was suspected' of having assassinated Kennedy - they recognized him immediately as the 'Lee' that visited their home in September, and contacted the FBI.

I'll have to read the preceding chapter again, as well as the chapter next - it's interesting, as it appears that Elmer was quite agitated with the incident, and I think the authors imply he had some knowledge as to Charles Rogers being associated with the CIA, and his pressing of the issue led him to receive a stern warning to let it alone.

Need to read it over again. Does anyone have more on this? How would this fit into an overall Oswald timeline? Let's say it was Lee Oswald - who is Charles? - since it is clear he is not Charles Rogers, who is using the alias of Carlos? AND - why are so many individuals associated with the assassination in possession of Spanish aliases?

- lee

[James Richards]

Hi Lee,

Was there any tie in here with the murders of Rogers' parents?

Carlos seemed to be the common name used by ghouls. Rip Robertson introduced himself as Carlos when he landed in the Congo.

FWIW.

James

[Lee Forman]

Hi Lee,

Was there any tie in here with the murders of Rogers' parents?

Carlos seemed to be the common name used by ghouls. Rip Robertson introduced himself as Carlos when he landed in the Congo.

FWIW.

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks as always James.

Well...I am having fun wading through some of it. I really should take the time to do a straight sit-down and read the whole thing. Turns out that the Gerharts were contacted as references for Charles when he joined intelligence back in 1956. You can see why they would be alarmed when finding an association between Lee Oswald and Charles.

The connections here, beyond Oswald, are amazing. Shell oil, CIA, Latin America, Charles learning Spanish, flying small planes, David Ferrie, the use of disguises, and on and on.

No special ties to the murder as far as I can tell. Need to read more. Edwina Rogers apparently had a breakdown following the assassination and called Elmer Gerhart. He was a bit apprehensive about speaking with her, since he wasn't sure where the conversation may go, and what he had witnessed in regards to her son Charles and Lee.

It get's better and better - this is a very interesting book. Elmer, by some coincidence or other, has an old friend named Carl, nicknamed 'The Dutchman.' OSS, and an assassin during WWII. After Elmer contacts the FBI for the 2nd time, he calls Carl to see if he can't use his weight to get something to happen in regards to a clear connection between a CIA contract agent [Rogers] and the alleged assassin of the President. 'Carl' [not his real name] says:

'Elmer.  I concur with your version of the facts.  I believe the man you and Marietta saw was whom you believe him to be.'  Then Carl became urgent.  "Elmer, you and Marietta have done your duty.  There is nothing more you can do.  I am asking you, as a friend, to drop it, now.  Let the government handle it.  Leave it alone please.  They are aware of the situation.  This is all I can tell you."

p163

Okay - there is a possible connection. It seems that Charles left before the assassination, and wasn't seen again by his neighbors until some time after. The neighbors talked, and Edwina shared some of her fears for Charles, who was receiving a lot of very odd phone calls from people whose voices made her nervous - she confessed that she believed Charles was in over his head, but they did not speak of the Lee & Charles / Carlos meeting. Then one night in 1965 [June 20th], Marietta is out pulling th garbage cans to the street and is startled by someone. It is Charles Rogers, who thanks her for having been kind to his Mother, and says good-bye, that he has to go away. Marietta sees Charles Rogers join a man she thinks may have been the other Charles - the one that accompanied Lee that night in September. June 23rd, the murder is reported, as the bodies are found.

Edwina and Elmer Gerhart never accept the fact that Charles could have committed these gruesome murders, and name him heir to their estate - valued at some $750K.

Hmm - later in the book the authors [John R. Craig and Philip A Rogers] identify the other Charles as Charles Hunter, aka Charles Voyde Harrelson.

There are quite a few details in this book which are provided sans reference. Interesting, none-the-less. They have Rogers asking Lee Oswald for his ID and Visa for a Mexico operation. Rogers needs the cover, and Lee has already been prepped to assist, through Bannister. The ID has no photo, and it is Rogers who then goes on to Mexico, posing as Oswald. That's interesting.

- lee

[James Richards]

Thanks Lee.

Interesting indeed. I am not sure what to make of all this. There was a rumor floating about a few years ago that Charles Rogers had retired to a Perth suburb (Western Australia) called Mundaring. It is an outlying community with a semi-rural feel.

I tried to check into it but went nowhere. Anyway, this is Charles Rogers below as a very young man.

James

[Thomas Graves]

Thanks Lee.

Interesting indeed. I am not sure what to make of all this. There was a rumor floating about a few years ago that Charles Rogers had retired to a Perth suburb (Western Australia) called Mundaring. It is an outlying community with a semi-rural feel.

I tried to check into it but went nowhere. Anyway, this is Charles Rogers below as a very young man.

James

__________________________________

Does anyone know how tall Rogers was? I remember reading somewhere that he was quite short.

--Thomas

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Edited April 3, 2008 by Thomas Graves

[Chris Brown]

Charles Rogers.

http://www.iceboxmurders.com/KDFWInterview.htm

[Wim Dankbaar]

Richard Ray

Not long ago a Houston police artist used old photos to construct an image of what Charles Rogers might look like now.

Yeah, Lois Gibson. You can find her presentation here:

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/lois1.htm

By the way, the author John Craig conducted the first video interview in 1991 with the other "tramp" Chauncey Holt.

It was never made public, and John was so gracious to hand it over to me. You can find a fragment here:

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-3809736358843120698

The total raw interview is 3 hours (2 DVDs).

Wim

PS: By the way, I have a picture of the icebox with a view of its contents as found. Gruesome. I am convinced Charles murdered his parents when they found out and threatened to spill the beans on his involvement in Dallas.

Edited April 3, 2008 by Wim Dankbaar

[Bernice Moore]

Rogers Charles:

According to his, medical flight certificate ..he was 5'5" tall..145 lbs...Receding Brown hair..

and blue eyes...slight build....

According to The Continuing Enquiry....the tall tramp and Charles Harrelson were approx..6' 1'..

B......

[Lee Forman]

I do not believe Rogers was one of the tramps, FWIW. Always found this one to be a bit odd though....

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

"(The authors of The Man on the Grassy Knoll) have Rogers asking Lee Oswald for his ID and Visa for a Mexico operation. Rogers needs the cover, and Lee has already been prepped to assist, through Bannister. The ID has no photo, and it is Rogers who then goes on to Mexico, posing as Oswald. That's interesting.

- lee

_______________________________

I'll say. If it wasn't for hair color, he'd fit Cuban Consul Azcue's and Sylvia Duran's description of the M.C. "Oswald" to a "T"-- very thin face, blue eyes, very short, and over 30. And for good measure, CIA and connected with Bannister and Ferrie.

--Thomas

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Edited April 5, 2008 by Thomas Graves

[Wim Dankbaar]

Does anyone know how tall Rogers was? I remember reading somewhere that he was quite short.

--Thomas

And there is the shorter tramp. Charles Rogers was five foot five, a 145 pounds, and he was 41 years old that day. every single feature is consistent. The only thing is the the person on the right has aged, from that highschool picture.

Here is another view of the shorter tramp. Again, the tramp that I believe is Charles Harrelson, who is definitely taller than Charles Rogers, he is behind him like 10 or 15 feet and he still appears taller than the shorter tramp. So I would guess this man to be 5.5. It is hard to do that, but notice the vehicle. That man's body relative to the vehicle. He is 5.5.

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

"(The authors of The Man on the Grassy Knoll) have Rogers asking Lee Oswald for his ID and Visa for a Mexico operation. Rogers needs the cover, and Lee has already been prepped to assist, through Bannister. The ID has no photo, and it is Rogers who then goes on to Mexico, posing as Oswald. That's interesting.

- lee

_______________________________

I'll say. If it wasn't for hair color which he easily could have changed, he'd fit Azcue's and Duran's description of the M.C. "Oswald" to a "T"-- thin face, blue eyes, short, and let's face it, he was "over 30 years of age" (41). And for good measure he was CIA, connected with Bannister and Ferrie, and bore a resemblance to LHO.

I don't think Rogers was the short tramp, but I do think he was the Mexico City "Oswald."

--Thomas

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bump

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Edited April 5, 2008 by Thomas Graves

[Lee Forman]

Does anyone know how tall Rogers was? I remember reading somewhere that he was quite short.

--Thomas

And there is the shorter tramp. Charles Rogers was five foot five, a 145 pounds, and he was 41 years old that day. every single feature is consistent. The only thing is the the person on the right has aged, from that highschool picture.

Here is another view of the shorter tramp. Again, the tramp that I believe is Charles Harrelson, who is definitely taller than Charles Rogers, he is behind him like 10 or 15 feet and he still appears taller than the shorter tramp. So I would guess this man to be 5.5. It is hard to do that, but notice the vehicle. That man's body relative to the vehicle. He is 5.5.

I would prefer first seeing a photo of Gerry Hoy of General Dynamics as per Dick Spragues notes to RB Cutler before wasting any more time on Rogers as a possible, personally. Wim - any chance of getting that acheived.

- lee

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

"(The authors of The Man on the Grassy Knoll) have Rogers asking Lee Oswald for his ID and Visa for a Mexico operation. Rogers needs the cover, and Lee has already been prepped to assist, through Bannister. The ID has no photo, and it is Rogers who then goes on to Mexico, posing as Oswald. That's interesting.

- lee

_______________________________

I'll say. If it wasn't for hair color (which he could have altered), he'd fit Azcue's and Duran's description of the M.C. "Oswald" to a "T"-- thin face, blue eyes, short, and let's face it, he was "over 30 years of age" (41). And for good measure he was CIA, connected with Bannister and Ferrie, and bore a resemblance to LHO...

I don't think Rogers was the short tramp, but I do think he was the Mexico City "Oswald."

--Thomas

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bump

_____________________________

again

__________________________

Edited April 5, 2008 by Thomas Graves

[Don Bailey]

Wim, the lead tramp is Charles Harrelson! Woody is 5'10 and his dad was almost the same height... TMWKK portrays Harrelson as the Tall Tramp... this information was incorrect. Frank Sturgis was the Tall Tramp.

Don