Gender

[Susan Wilde]

Quoting Andrew now :

Jen Coates was on Thinking Allowed (BBC R4) (c. 16th June 2004) very interesting on men's language. She claims that men construct solidarity through playful conflict, while women do through mutual disclosure.

There was a good brief account of her research methods.

You can get it again at

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/thinki..._20040616.shtml

I'd agree with this - and I usually point it quite explicitly in my classes, after we've dicussed gender in general, and boys always say girls are bitchy - you just point out every time a boy says something "bitchy" to another boy - they do it ALL the time (presumably that is "playful conflict" ) I guess the bitchiness girls are accused of is more covert (behind ppl's backs!!

[Graham Davies]

There has been a lot of research on gender and language, sexism and language, etc.

I worked regularly in Hungary from 1991 to 1996, which was an interesting period as Hungary was opening up to new ideas following the fall of the Berlin Wall. I recall a Californian feminist touring the country and lecturing on gender and language, e.g. pointing out that one should always avoid gender bias in writing, being careful to say 'he/she' and avoid words such as 'actress'. The Hungarians were a bit puzzled, however, as their language does not use gender markers in the same way as other European languages. Hungarian has one word for the third person pronoun, which can mean 'he' or 'she', and gender is only marked when there is likely to be confusion.

[Guest brinn]

Quoting Andrew now :

Jen Coates was on Thinking Allowed (BBC R4) (c. 16th June 2004)  very interesting on men's language. She claims that men construct solidarity  through playful conflict, while women do through mutual disclosure.

There was a good brief account of her research methods.

You can get it again at

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/thinki..._20040616.shtml

I'd agree with this - and I usually point it quite explicitly in my classes, after we've discussed gender in general, and boys always say girls are bitchy - you just point out every time a boy says something "bitchy" to another boy - they do it ALL the time (presumably that is "playful conflict" )  I guess the bitchiness girls are accused of is more covert (behind ppl's backs!!

Having listened to the entire Radio Report - I have to thank you for the nudist moment.

I did enjoy the geezer talk section (including the D Moore spoof...). Having Michael Holden (D Editor of mag 'Loaded'.) was a bonus - or not - tee hee et al.

Worth ENB4 candidates listening too, if only for how a serious investigation into Lang. can be held.

[Susan Wilde]

I am just at that horrible moment when no-one seems to have any clue about any aspect of anything which might motivate them to a real investigation for ENB4

ho hum

and it brings me back to the adage that youth is wasted on the young .. I'd be so happy to burrow away in any number of linguistic channels and "they" seem unable to find one little crevice to start in

aside - is masculinity wasted on men! LOL

[Cormack Kirby]

Girls' relationships would be destroyed by the normal jockeying for attention that boys delight in. The cruellest mockery is brushed aside instantly and the greatest adulation is accorded to the lad who can make the others laugh. If he fails, it's instant derision. No wonder so few women tell jokes

Edited October 6, 2004 by Cormack Kirby

[Guest Andrew Moore]

Hi, Susan,

Can you not direct them to tasks which will support other parts of the course? You must have thought of that before - basically replicating and extending what other students have done.

All those tasks you would readily undertake - give them to your students to see how they get on.

In that case, in order not to do what you suggest, they will need to come up with a sensible alternative.

[Susan Wilde]

No wonder so few women tell jokes

and why do so many men think that repeating something that they didnt even think of themselves is clever? (ie telling "jokes")

Or that "not telling jokes" = "no sense of humour" ?

These, and other nonsenses occupy my mind from time to time!

Edited October 8, 2004 by Susan Wilde

[Graham Davies]

Cormack writes:

No wonder so few women tell jokes

You should spend some time in the company of my wife, Sally, who hails from Belfast, where jokes and swift repartee are part and parcel of everyday life and common to both sexes. I can't keep up with her! My sister-in-law (from Cork) also has a great sense of humour - and when the two of them get together... Doesn't Irish English just ooze humour anyway?

I've just finished watching extracts from Victoria Woods' sketches in the top five comedians series on TV. She makes me laugh a lot, and I reckon she stands a good chance of winning. Dawn French is up there with her too.

Maybe it's a cultural or regional thing.

[Graham Davies]

I followed the link at:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/thinki..._20040616.shtml

which contained the following statement:

“If the stereotypes are to be believed, men either don’t talk very much, or talk compulsively and competitively about sport, cars and their latest drinking exploits.”

Coincidentally, I just posted John Betjeman’s “Slough” poem to the favourite poems section of this section of the forum. To quote three verses in the middle:

But spare the bald young clerks who add

The profits of the stinking cad;

It's not their fault that they are mad,

They've tasted Hell.

It's not their fault they do not know

The birdsong from the radio,

It's not their fault they often go

To Maidenhead

And talk of sports and makes of cars

In various bogus Tudor bars

And daren't look up and see the stars

But belch instead.

Tudor bars are a bit passé now, but the rest is true. I know – I live in Maidenhead.

[Cormack Kirby]

Cormack writes:

No wonder so few women tell jokes

You should spend some time in the company of my wife, Sally, who hails from Belfast, where jokes and swift repartee are part and parcel of everyday life and common to both sexes. I can't keep up with her! My sister-in-law (from Cork) also has a great sense of humour - and when the two of them get together... Doesn't Irish English just ooze humour anyway?

I've just finished watching extracts from Victoria Woods' sketches in the top five comedians series on TV. She makes me laugh a lot, and I reckon she stands a good chance of winning. Dawn French is up there with her too.

Maybe it's a cultural or regional thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Incidentally, that wasn't a criticism of women. Repartee and humour are very different from jokes. The former are much more closely linked to wit and have to be linked by coherence to the topic thread whereas jokes are pre-rehearsed routines which are hard to respond to. I'm sure we all know the stress of waiting for a joke to end & wondering if we will be able to fashion an appropriate response whereas repartee and even anecdotes creat a warmth in conversation and advance relationships. God save us from jokes and let's have more humour.

[Graham Davies]

Yes, I think Cormack is right in making a distinction here. But men don't tell many jokes either these days - at least my male friends don't. Jokes are for stand-up comedians, a growing number of whom are female. I get very bored with people (male and female) who insist on hogging the conversation in our pub by telling a string of jokes. The odd one is OK - if it's new and delivered well.

[Susan Wilde]

@ cormack it seems we are in agreement!