Jack W. Martin

[John Dolva]

Jack S. (Suggs) Martin was in New Orleans fistacuffing with Bannister at the time

of the assassination, while Jack W. Martin, was in Dallas, saying something

suspicious enough for him to be considered a shooting suspect. ??? thank you

[Robert Howard]

Jack S. (Suggs) Martin was in New Orleans fistacuffing with Bannister at the time

of the assassination, while Jack W. Martin, was in Dallas, saying something

suspicious enough for him to be considered a shooting suspect. ??? thank you

John: What does the F.U. stand for? Since I made the last post before you, you might see why I am curious.

By the way, whats the deal with your photo avatar and Belivaqua's, I noticed for awhile there it seemed like you and Belivacqua started looking like the Bobsie Twins, and now your avatar is gone?

F.U. huh......

Edited August 6, 2009 by Robert Howard

[John Dolva]

Jack S. (Suggs) Martin was in New Orleans fistacuffing with Bannister at the time

of the assassination, while Jack W. Martin, was in Dallas, saying something

suspicious enough for him to be considered a shooting suspect. ??? thank you

John: What does the F.U. stand for? Since I made the last post before you, you might see why I am curious.

By the way, whats the deal with your photo avatar and Belivaqua's, I noticed for awhile there it seemed like you and Belivacqua started looking like the Bobsie Twins, and now your avatar is gone?

F.U. huh......

Don't worry Robert, it's not for you.

Sorry, I wasn't thinking of that. I found that in the setup options one can see up to 40 posts in one window, as opposed to the default, and I've been pondering that one a while on the backburner. Seeing it again... do I really need to go on?

''Jack S. ... at the time of the assasination. ...''

My question is ''was he''? If so Oliver Stone has let artistic licence an inordinate ammount of leeway.

If you're right then, thank you.

(I'm on strike btw, that's all. Don't take it personal.)

[Robert Howard]

I did happen, to find an additional report concerning Jack W Martin.....

It is in a mammoth HSCA Administrative Folder Secret Service.

See below.....

ADMIN FOLDER-B12: HSCA ADMINISTRATIVE FOLDER, SECRET SERVICE REPORTS, LHO 12/13/63......385 Pages

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...c.do?docId=9893

The pertinent section reads:

At 2:06 PM November 22, 1963 Clerk Rhyan again called reporting agent advising that at that time it was thought that Jack Martin may have been the assassin of President Kennedy.

She could furnish no information regarding Jack Martin’s description or background knowing only that his address was reported as Route 1, Goldonna, Louisiana, and that it was desired that discreet inquiries regarding Martin be conducted at Goldonna at once. Reporting agent immediately telephoned SAIC John Rice who happened to be on an official raod trip to Shreveport and vicinity, in the northwest section of Louisiana, approximately 325 miles from New Orleans. Goldonna being located in Natchitoches Parish in the northwest section of Louisiana.

SAIC Rice was located at the Office of Special Investigations Barksdale Air Force Base, near Shreveport, Louisiana, and was informed of the above mentioned request that discreet inquiries regarding Martin be conducted and the results be telephoned to our office in Dallas, Texas had telephoned the that Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested in Dallas, Texas for having fired the shots that killed President Kennedy......

I believe it would be accurate to say that given the assassination of President Kennedy was, in my estimation, the most significant event of the Cold War, and that though Oswald was tried....convicted, in the media at least, and executed by Jack Ruby for being the assassin of President Kennedy, it borders on sacrilige, that no one knows squat about the elusive Jack W. Martin....Does that not say something about the subject in general.....

At the very least it would seem a historical responsibility to ascertain why and what happened in the immediate aftermath of the assassination, that led the Secret Service to be making a "discreet inquiry" regarding him.

For that matter, what in the devil is one to make of the expression discreet inquiry concerning someone, who, at that time was being speculated as the ersatz possible assassin of President Kennedy.

The whole matter stinks to high heavens....irrespective of Oswald's guilt or innocence. Another issue relative to the name Martin in general, is that there are a host of persons named Martin who figure prominently in the legacy of the Kennedy assassination, although there is no doubt a partial explanation for that fact is that very simply the Surname Martin is very common, at the same time, there were Martin's who did everything from help represent Marina Oswald legally to being involved in cashing the checks Oswald received when living in New Orleans, while the FBI and the Secret Service both stand as poor examples in the area of running down leads and following through with them, Jack W. Martin strikes me as being one of those examples.

Considering that there was a component of the assassination that involved the Minutemen, John Birch Society and somewhat bizarre religous groups, in which Jack W Martin of Goldonna, La. may have been a part of concerning the latter, it might behoove those who have an interest in this topic to ask this question.

If Jack W Martin was irrelevant to the assassination, why is there so little information about him in the files........

It is pretty much the same as the document in CD 87, except that it substitute's the words

Edited October 21, 2009 by Robert Howard

[Guest Tom Scully]

....More on Jack W. Martin from original report of SAIC John W. Rice:

Page 2

00-2-34,030

12-4-63

"Constable Frazier said that apparently Martin had never been in any trouble

in Goldonna or vicinity, but that he did leave the area about 8 or 10 years

ago and was gone for several years. He said he heard that he was either in

the armed forces or possibly in prison in another state."

"Martin reportedly has never married, and so far as is known he has never been

gainfully employed. He has communicated with his parents by mail from various

places throughout the country, and always uses a general delivery address. He

reportedly has been in Massachusetts, New Jersey, California, Texas, and other

states."

"Constable Frazer said he last saw Martin in Goldonna approximately three or

four weeks ago. Rural Carrier Quarles said that he believed that Martin's

either had been writing to him in Texas, city unrecalled, recently."

"All of the persons interviewed indicated that Martin is quiet and dos not have

any close friends in the area. He apparently does not hunt or fish, and is not

interested in sports. There was no indication that he had a gun or rifle.

He is said to be neat in appearance and rather soft spoken."

"Constable Frazier said that a brother, Bobbie Martin, age about 19 years, has

been a problem in the community."

"Jack W. Martin was described as follows: white; male; 25-30, 5-6 to 5-8; 150; dark eyes, dark hair; olive complexion; stocky build."

"At Natchitachee, Louisiana, inquiries were made at Sheriff's Office, and no

record of Jack W. Martin was located."

"At approximately 9:00 PM on 11/22/63 I contacted SA Robert A. Steuart, Dallas,

by telephone from Natchitoches, Louisiana, furnishing him with the results of the

investigation. SA Steuart advised that Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested in

Dallas in connection with the assassination of President Kennedy. He said that

Oswald, who was connected with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans,

had filed change of address from Dallas to 4907 Magazine Street, New Orleans on

on 5/15/63; that he again rented a box in Dallas on 11/2/63. SA Steuart requested

further investigation in New Orleans."

"He also advised that Jack Martin had been previously considered a

possible suspect due to suspicious remarks which he had made in

Dallas following the assassination of the President."

"At 9:30 PM on 11/22/63 I contacted SA Garrets by telephone at his residence in

New Orleans and requested that he and SA Vial conduct immediate investigation

relative to Oswald's activities in New Orleans...."

THERE HAS GOT TO BE MORE TO THIS STORY.

http://gravelocator.cem.va.gov/j2ee/servle...p;mid_nme_opt=1

111. MARTIN, JACK W

AS US NAVY

WORLD WAR II

DATE OF BIRTH: 10/10/1928

DATE OF DEATH: 04/02/2002

BURIED AT: SECTION 7 SITE 1453

FT. SNELLING NATIONAL CEMETERY

7601 34TH AVENUE, SOUTH MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55450

(612) 726-1127

Info posted in a family tree @ ancestry.com by another member....(it included the burial info I verified above.)

Parents were Ben. F and Thelma Martin (I have 1930 census image, but it lists only child of this couple as "William", age

1 yr. and 6/12 months on April 11. 1930, so October, 1928 birth date is a match.)

Only source for middle name. "Wilburn" and brother, "Bobby Ray". is from the Ancestry.com member's family tree info,

but match to info in Bill's post, quoted above, is quite close, even Bobby's age, 19 in 1963. if born in 1944.:

Jack Wilburn Martin

1928

7 Oct

Birth

West Monroe, Ouachita, Louisiana USA

Death Certificate

d. 2 Apr 2002 Minneapolis, Hennepin, Minnesota File #:2002-MN-014126

Military

AS US Navy WW II Start date 07 Nov 1945 end date 06 Oct 1947

Brother:

#

* Bobby Ray Martin

* Birth

o 6 FEB 1944

o in Louisiana USA

* Death

o 11 NOV 1977

o in Louisiana USA

Burial

Yankee Springs Cemetery, Winn Parish, LA.

Bobby Ray's and his mother, Thelma's cemetery listings can be viewed here:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?p...id=2242409&

And.....I just found this:

http://files.usgwarchives.net/la/winn/obits/m/marben64.txt

Obituaries: Ben Martin, 1964, Winn Parish, LA

Submitted by Greggory E. Davies, 120 Ted Price Lane, Winnfield, LA 71483

From: July 16, 1964 Winn Parish Enterprise News-American

Ben Martin, 59, Goldonna Native, Died July 10

Ben Martin, 59, of Goldonna, Rt. 1, died July 10 in a Monroe hospital after a

short illness.

Rites were scheduled to be held in the Cypress Baptist Church with interment

in Cypress Cemetery.

A native of Catahoula Parish, Mr. Martin was a heavy equipment operator.

He is survived by his widow, Mrs. Thelma Martin, Goldonna; two sons, Jack W.

Martin, Goldonna, and Bobby R. Martin, Ironton, Ohio; a brother, W. H. Martin,

Columbia; and a sister, Mrs. Mamie Allen, Columbia.

Edited October 22, 2009 by Tom Scully

[William O'Neil]

I did happen, to find an additional report concerning Jack W Martin.....

It is in a mammoth HSCA Administrative Folder Secret Service.

See below.....

ADMIN FOLDER-B12: HSCA ADMINISTRATIVE FOLDER, SECRET SERVICE REPORTS, LHO 12/13/63......385 Pages

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...c.do?docId=9893

The pertinent section reads:

At 2:06 PM November 22, 1963 Clerk Rhyan again called reporting agent advising that at that time it was thought that Jack Martin may have been the assassin of President Kennedy.

She could furnish no information regarding Jack Martin’s description or background knowing only that his address was reported as Route 1, Goldonna, Louisiana, and that it was desired that discreet inquiries regarding Martin be conducted at Goldonna at once. Reporting agent immediately telephoned SAIC John Rice who happened to be on an official raod trip to Shreveport and vicinity, in the northwest section of Louisiana, approximately 325 miles from New Orleans. Goldonna being located in Natchitoches Parish in the northwest section of Louisiana.

SAIC Rice was located at the Office of Special Investigations Barksdale Air Force Base, near Shreveport, Louisiana, and was informed of the above mentioned request that discreet inquiries regarding Martin be conducted and the results be telephoned to our office in Dallas, Texas had telephoned the that Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested in Dallas, Texas for having fired the shots that killed President Kennedy......

I believe it would be accurate to say that given the assassination of President Kennedy was, in my estimation, the most significant event of the Cold War, and that though Oswald was tried....convicted, in the media at least, and executed by Jack Ruby for being the assassin of President Kennedy, it borders on sacrilige, that no one knows squat about the elusive Jack W. Martin....Does that not say something about the subject in general.....

At the very least it would seem a historical responsibility to ascertain why and what happened in the immediate aftermath of the assassination, that led the Secret Service to be making a "discreet inquiry" regarding him.

For that matter, what in the devil is one to make of the expression discreet inquiry concerning someone, who, at that time was being speculated as the ersatz possible assassin of President Kennedy.

The whole matter stinks to high heavens....irrespective of Oswald's guilt or innocence. Another issue relative to the name Martin in general, is that there are a host of persons named Martin who figure prominently in the legacy of the Kennedy assassination, although there is no doubt a partial explanation for that fact is that very simply the Surname Martin is very common, at the same time, there were Martin's who did everything from help represent Marina Oswald legally to being involved in cashing the checks Oswald received when living in New Orleans, while the FBI and the Secret Service both stand as poor examples in the area of running down leads and following through with them, Jack W. Martin strikes me as being one of those examples.

Considering that there was a component of the assassination that involved the Minutemen, John Birch Society and somewhat bizarre religous groups, in which Jack W Martin of Goldonna, La. may have been a part of concerning the latter, it might behoove those who have an interest in this topic to ask this question.

If Jack W Martin was irrelevant to the assassination, why is there so little information about him in the files........

It is pretty much the same as the document in CD 87, except that it substitute's the words

I think an even more interesting question is, What was Agent Rice doing in Shreveport during this crucial time?

-Bill O

[Guest Tom Scully]

.............

I think an even more interesting question is, What was Agent Rice doing in Shreveport during this crucial time?

-Bill O

At 2:00 pm November, 22, 1963, Rice was at OSI, Barksdale AFB, according to the documents. Then and now, OSI and SS are one big happy family. With such impressive depth and breadth, how did SS/OSI still manage to lose tne President to gunshots fired at his (out of security protocol, due to it's slow forward speed at the time, and unsecured windows above in multi story buildings along the motorcade route.) motorcade?

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?um=1&...rles+J.++Powley

http://www.gtowntimes.com/print/article/Obits-12-17

Charles J. Powley

- The State - NewsBank - Dec 12, 2008

Charles J. Powley, USAF (Ret.), 89, of Surfside Beach, formerly of Wilcox, PA, died Wednesday, December 11, 2008, in National Healthcare of Garden City.

Born in Arroyo, PA, he was the son of the late John, Sr. and Julia Powley. He completed his civilian Pilot Training Program in 1941 and was issued a private pilot's license.

During the early part of World War II, he served in the New Guinea and other Southwest Pacific Islands as an air combat intelligence officer.

Later Col. Powley was assigned as Intelligence liaison officer,

providing an information link between the advanced echelons of the 5th and 13th Air Forces and the Royal Australian Air Force.

After the war his assignments included Air Intelligence staff officer with the Military Air Transport Command, special agent with the Office of Special Investigations, U.S. Air Force and the Central Intelligence Agency.

He was detailed to the secret service to assist in the personal protection of President Johnson during his inauguration and the ceremonies that followed.

After retiring from the Federal Service, he moved his family from Hillcrest Heights, Md., to Surfside Beach. Col. Powley was a member of the Military Officers Association.

Powley had a passion for old cars and owned a classic Corvette, which he entered in the Sun Fun and other local parades. He attended the Universities of Maryland and Hawaii and received a bachelor’s degree in political science from Jackson College.

He was a former member of St. Michael's Catholic Church, where he was active in their Mobile Meals...

http://www.osi.andrews.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123165694

“Honor Graduate of the Year” Award to U.S. Air Force OSI Special Agent

Posted 8/31/2009

...Special Agent xXXXXX's first duty station as an Air Force Reservist was with the Office of Special Investigations (OSI) Detachment 307 at McGuire Air Force Base, New Jersey. Following that assignment he served with the 7th Field Investigation Squadron at Andrews Air Force Base, Maryland, as a Reserve Agent. He provided assistance to criminal cases in the National Capital Region and participated in multiple protective service details for visiting foreign dignitaries....

[William Kelly]

.............

I think an even more interesting question is, What was Agent Rice doing in Shreveport during this crucial time?

-Bill O

Good question Bill,

and thanks for your input Tom.

Jack W. Martin is certainly an interesting character.

As Robert says, its pretty amazing that you have a shooting suspect in the assassination of JFK before Oswald, and can't find out anything about him.

As for John W. Rice, he is a very important character in this story, as he was the head of the Secret Service office in New Orleans, and was the person that Adele contacted before the assassination, and it was Rice and FBI agent Orrin Bartlett who were interviewing her at the time Ruby killed Oswald.

Rice led the New Orleans Secret Service investigation into the assassination, and his name is on many reports, but he was never officially interviewed or questioned by the Warren Commission, HSCA or ARRB.

And he might even be still alive.

That the Dallas Secret Service Office, immediately after the assassination, would contact the New Orleans SS office and request they discretely investigate John W. Martin, and send John W. Rice on this, an investigation that takes up the entire day, and when completed, Rice is told never mind, we got Oswald and are no longer interested in Martin. Well, that says a lot.

They sent him on a wild goose chase.

And what was he doing at Barksdale AFB at the time of the assassination?

He wasn't investigating counterfitters.

He was there for some reason related to presidential security.

And it would be real interesting to locate JWRice and ask him a few questions before he dies, if he hasn't already.

Bill Kelly

At 2:00 pm November, 22, 1963, Rice was at OSI, Barksdale AFB, according to the documents. Then and now, OSI and SS are one big happy family. With such impressive depth and breadth, how did SS/OSI still manage to lose tne President to gunshots fired at his (out of security protocol, due to it's slow forward speed at the time, and unsecured windows above in multi story buildings along the motorcade route.) motorcade?

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?um=1&...rles+J.++Powley

http://www.gtowntimes.com/print/article/Obits-12-17

Charles J. Powley

- The State - NewsBank - Dec 12, 2008

Charles J. Powley, USAF (Ret.), 89, of Surfside Beach, formerly of Wilcox, PA, died Wednesday, December 11, 2008, in National Healthcare of Garden City.

Born in Arroyo, PA, he was the son of the late John, Sr. and Julia Powley. He completed his civilian Pilot Training Program in 1941 and was issued a private pilot's license.

During the early part of World War II, he served in the New Guinea and other Southwest Pacific Islands as an air combat intelligence officer.

Later Col. Powley was assigned as Intelligence liaison officer,

providing an information link between the advanced echelons of the 5th and 13th Air Forces and the Royal Australian Air Force.

After the war his assignments included Air Intelligence staff officer with the Military Air Transport Command, special agent with the Office of Special Investigations, U.S. Air Force and the Central Intelligence Agency.

He was detailed to the secret service to assist in the personal protection of President Johnson during his inauguration and the ceremonies that followed.

After retiring from the Federal Service, he moved his family from Hillcrest Heights, Md., to Surfside Beach. Col. Powley was a member of the Military Officers Association.

Powley had a passion for old cars and owned a classic Corvette, which he entered in the Sun Fun and other local parades. He attended the Universities of Maryland and Hawaii and received a bachelor’s degree in political science from Jackson College.

He was a former member of St. Michael's Catholic Church, where he was active in their Mobile Meals...

http://www.osi.andrews.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123165694

“Honor Graduate of the Year” Award to U.S. Air Force OSI Special Agent

Posted 8/31/2009

...Special Agent xXXXXX's first duty station as an Air Force Reservist was with the Office of Special Investigations (OSI) Detachment 307 at McGuire Air Force Base, New Jersey. Following that assignment he served with the 7th Field Investigation Squadron at Andrews Air Force Base, Maryland, as a Reserve Agent. He provided assistance to criminal cases in the National Capital Region and participated in multiple protective service details for visiting foreign dignitaries....

Edited October 23, 2009 by William Kelly

[Robert Howard]

.............

I think an even more interesting question is, What was Agent Rice doing in Shreveport during this crucial time?

-Bill O

At 2:00 pm November, 22, 1963, Rice was at OSI, Barksdale AFB, according to the documents. Then and now, OSI and SS are one big happy family. With such impressive depth and breadth, how did SS/OSI still manage to lose tne President to gunshots fired at his (out of security protocol, due to it's slow forward speed at the time, and unsecured windows above in multi story buildings along the motorcade route.) motorcade?

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?um=1&...rles+J.++Powley

http://www.gtowntimes.com/print/article/Obits-12-17

Charles J. Powley

- The State - NewsBank - Dec 12, 2008

Charles J. Powley, USAF (Ret.), 89, of Surfside Beach, formerly of Wilcox, PA, died Wednesday, December 11, 2008, in National Healthcare of Garden City.

Born in Arroyo, PA, he was the son of the late John, Sr. and Julia Powley. He completed his civilian Pilot Training Program in 1941 and was issued a private pilot's license.

During the early part of World War II, he served in the New Guinea and other Southwest Pacific Islands as an air combat intelligence officer.

Later Col. Powley was assigned as Intelligence liaison officer,

providing an information link between the advanced echelons of the 5th and 13th Air Forces and the Royal Australian Air Force.

After the war his assignments included Air Intelligence staff officer with the Military Air Transport Command, special agent with the Office of Special Investigations, U.S. Air Force and the Central Intelligence Agency.

He was detailed to the secret service to assist in the personal protection of President Johnson during his inauguration and the ceremonies that followed.

After retiring from the Federal Service, he moved his family from Hillcrest Heights, Md., to Surfside Beach. Col. Powley was a member of the Military Officers Association.

Powley had a passion for old cars and owned a classic Corvette, which he entered in the Sun Fun and other local parades. He attended the Universities of Maryland and Hawaii and received a bachelor’s degree in political science from Jackson College.

He was a former member of St. Michael's Catholic Church, where he was active in their Mobile Meals...

http://www.osi.andrews.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123165694

“Honor Graduate of the Year” Award to U.S. Air Force OSI Special Agent

Posted 8/31/2009

...Special Agent xXXXXX's first duty station as an Air Force Reservist was with the Office of Special Investigations (OSI) Detachment 307 at McGuire Air Force Base, New Jersey. Following that assignment he served with the 7th Field Investigation Squadron at Andrews Air Force Base, Maryland, as a Reserve Agent. He provided assistance to criminal cases in the National Capital Region and participated in multiple protective service details for visiting foreign dignitaries....

Congratulations Tom, that's a great find. And very thorough....Looks like you the house genealogist, I have a list.......

But seriously, there are a myriad of potential names, that if even a few turned out to be real familial linkages would blow people away. This is a great find.....

Re the above The Warren Commission reflects that a Denver Lee Cheek was overheard making comments that led a telephone operator to contact the FBI. There was a noticeable lack of information ie ethnicity on the FBI Report when he was interviewed twice......I have often wondered if Denver Lee Cheek was related to Bertha Cheek whose sister was Earlene Roberts and who, was incidentally, the person who called Earlene Roberts to tell her that JFK was killed in approximately the same time period that Lee Oswald walked in the door after leaving the TSBD. My suspicions are further compounded by the fact that there is at least one document related to Bertha Cheek that is still postponed in full.

Suffice to say that if there was a blood relationship, it would be significant....

Again thanks

[Guest Tom Scully]

...................................

Congratulations Tom, that's a great find. And very thorough....Looks like you the house genealogist, I have a list.......

But seriously, there are a myriad of potential names, that if even a few turned out to be real familial linkages would blow people away. This is a great find.....

Re the above The Warren Commission reflects that a Denver Lee Cheek was overheard making comments that led a telephone operator to contact the FBI. There was a noticeable lack of information ie ethnicity on the FBI Report when he was interviewed twice......I have often wondered if Denver Lee Cheek was related to Bertha Cheek whose sister was Earlene Roberts and who, was incidentally, the person who called Earlene Roberts to tell her that JFK was killed in approximately the same time period that Lee Oswald walked in the door after leaving the TSBD. My suspicions are further compounded by the fact that there is at least one document related to Bertha Cheek that is still postponed in full.

Suffice to say that if there was a blood relationship, it would be significant....

Again thanks

You are welcome, Robert, and thank you! I've replied to the Bertha Cheek portion of you post here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=173679

Now that we know the "W" in Jack W Martin is for the name "Wilburn" (Apparently Wilburn is the middle name listed on Jack Martin's 2002 death cetificate.)

....it it just a coincidence that WW Litchfield II is also "Wilburn"?

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=110

Litchfield used aliases, but he is described as being nearly a foot taller than Jack W. Martin (6 ft. 4 inches, vs. 5 ft. 6 inches to possibly 5 ft. 8 inches tall.), so if there is a connection, it is not a physical impersonation by Jack.

Denver Lee Cheek's obit....he sure had a big family, but I don't expect we will find a link to Bertha Bogle Cheek:

http://www.wataugademocrat.com/2005/0812we...obituaries.php3

August 8, 2005

Denver Lee Cheek

.....Mr. Cheek was a U.S. Navy veteran of World War II and retired owner and operator of Denver Cheek Trucking Company.

After moving back to Fleetwood in 1988, he was an antiques dealer and had a booth at Wildcat Flea Market in Deep Gap......

[Robert Howard]

In the years I have spent researching the assassination of JFK, I have delved into many deaths that occurred prior to the assassination, that had overtones of "more than what meets the eye."

Senator Robert Samuel Kerr of Oklahoma is one of those examples, his death took place on January 1, 1963

See

http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodi...l?index=K000144

although such things are the laughing stock of the Bugliosi/Fuhrman/Posner crowd. Kerr's death, although nothing indicates there was anything suspicious about it, does appear compelling in light of the interest in the Suite 8-F Group, which among its proponents is one name familiar to anyone who has ever heard of the Education Forum......General Walker seemed to enjoy speaking of this area as indicated in my thread Of Lone Nut's, Lawyers and Psychiatrists from which the following is taken

There were indeed, several unexpected twist's and turns in Walker's Warren Commission Testimony. Among other things the theme of Walker's testimony, at times seemed like a shell game, where what is being discussed "off the record" is arguably more interesting that what the court stenographer is taking down on paper. Case in point? Well, in his testimony, General Walker and Mr. Liebeler are discussing the attempt on Mr. Walker's life which took place on April 10th, 1963. William McEwan Duff is the prime topic at this point as he had been "asked to leave" the Walker headquarters while Edwin Walker was away traveling.

Liebeler: Do you have any basis for believing there was any connection between Duff and Oswald?

Walker: None at all.

The conversation turns to Mr. Coleman, a witness to the Walker shooting, the description is deceiving, in the sense that Mr Coleman didn't witness the actual shooting, but saw two individuals in a car leaving after hearing the shot's fired. What is equally misleading is that Mr. Coleman was fifteen years old.

At this point in Walker's testimony, there is an "off the record" discussion. When testimony is resumed there is something of a flap between Walker and Liebeler, when Liebeler asks Walker if he has attempted to contact Mr. Coleman.

Walker's response is to insinuate that the Commission was instructed not to bring up the subject of the April 10th "shooting," a charge Liebeler categorically rejects.

Walker mentions that, Oswald and Jack Ruby had opened PO Boxes where mail could be sent somewhere other than their residence's, which made Wesley Liebeler inquire as to whether Mr Walker was alluding to a conspiratorial association between the two. At which point Walker delves into subjects ranging from information which appeared to indicate that Oswald had 'picked up' Jack Ruby's car after it had been worked on, that Oswald had rented an apartment from Jack Ruby's sister and, of course Ruby's shooting of Oswald. Then, Walker goes off into talking about the April 10, 1963 attempt on his life, in the process he mentions the death of a Professor William T. Wolf, who perished in a fire. According to Walker, Professor Wolf was burnt to death in the fire and this happened about 8 day's after the attempt on his life. [it was actually 10 day's later] Walker indicates his death seemed strange in that he was trapped in the fire despite the fact that he was on the first floor, when the fire occurred. Liebeler asks Walker if he thinks his death suggests a conspiracy "between Oswald and Ruby", to which Walker cites a couple of unusual deaths in the same sentence in relation to "what was going on in Dallas."

See Warren Commission Volume 11 Page 433 Hearings General Walker.

Dallas Morning News - April 19, 1963 Fire Death Of Professor Gets Probe

University Park fire investigator's probed Thursday the fire death of William Thompson Wolf, 32 year old history Professor at Southern Methodist University. Wolf's body was found early Thursday in the hallway of his duplex apartment at 6618 Dickens three blocks from the university campus. It marked University Park's first fire fatality for 1963, and only the third for the city in the last seven years. Fire Marshall Fred L. Chambers said the 12:25 A.M. blaze caused about $ 7,000 damage to the front living room and kitchen. He said it appeared Wolf attempted to retrieve some valuables, when he was overcome. Justice of the Peace David L. Johnston ruled death accidental, resulting from burns and fire exposure. [/i]

In the October 5th, 1963 Edition of the Dallas Morning News, Deen's death was carried in a short article with the heading

"Dr. Deen Found dead at home" Dallas Morning News October 5, 1963

The body of Dr. George C. Deen, 30 was found Friday in his apartment on the grounds of Timberlawn Psychiatric Center 4600 Samuell Blvd where he had been a resident physician since 1962. Justice of the Peace W.E. Richburg ordered an autopsy before returning a verdict. Dr. Joe W. King, also a resident physician, told police that when Dr Deen failed to report for duty, he went to his apartment and discovered the body slumped in a chair. Deen was head of a bi-racial group in Dallas known as the Committee for Full Citizenship, under his leadership the Committee this fall urged every eligible Negro student in the Dallas area to apply for admittance to an integrated school. Survivors include his wife; family Dr and Mrs C.C. Deen of Wichita Falls.

Beyond interesting, is the fact that in that time period, George DeMohrenschildt lived five doors down from William Thompson Wolf's residence on Dickens Ave., which is so close to SMU it is practically a "stones throw away from the campus." DeMohrenschildt lived at 6628 Dickens Ave., Wolf as indicate above, lived at 6618 Dickens.

See

http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=662...;name=&qty=

As it turns out Deen's death was not the first one at Timberlawn in 1963. In July a patient named Melvin Lehrmann had been discovered dead there.

"Patient Found Shot to Death" July 11, 1963 The article stated

A 35 year old patient at Timberlawn Psychiatric Hospital 4600 Samuell Blvd. was found dead late Tuesday night, shot in the right temple. A .22 caliber pistol was lying near the body.

The victim was Melvin Lehrmann of Ft. Worth. Timberlawn authorities said Lehrmann was last seen at 7:00 P.M. by a nurse and that his body was discovered in a restroom two hours later by another patient. Justice of the Peace W.E. Richburg ruled the death a suicide.

But as it turns out, Timberlawn Psychiatric Hospital had a link to Jack Ruby's Sovereign Club in the person of --- Ann Marie Carlson, aka Mrs Carl William Carlson, who at one time, was a nurse at Timberlawn Psychiatric Hospital. According to Ann Marie, her husband Carl, was a musician who came to Dallas in 1959 and sought employment at Sovereign Club. She said her husband was a former member of Ruby's band, Carl Carlson denied it.

However as of 2009 there is a pre-assassination death that is even more interesting than all of those indicated above, while I reserve judgment on the significance or insignificance of same it concerns, Bruce Carlin, someone named James H Martin, The Hill and Martin Ice Cold Storage Co, and indirectly the US Navy.

While the obituary is taken from the Dallas Morning News of 9/23/63 it is as mary ferrell's website indicates a matter of record that Bruce Carlin called this number before the assassination.......

Funeral Rites Set Tuesday for James H Martin

James H. Martin US Navy Veteran Hill and Martin Ice & Cold Storage Co

this company was mentioned in the WC.

WC Vol 25, pp. 265, 269

Mary's Comments: Bruce Carlin called that number 10/21/63.

also

DMN Mrs Joe Martin 11-10-63 of injuries sustained in an automobile accident probably Joyce Marie Martin 619 N Bishop

An excerpt of Bruce Carlin's testimony is included below

Mr. HUBERT. Do you concur in your wife's statement that her request to Ruby on the 24th was not made solely for the purpose of rent?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now did you actually hear her conversation?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And she mentioned rent and groceries?

Mr. CARLIN. It seems to me she said something like rent, groceries and other things, just as you would say everybody else. In other words, we needed money to exist until she could get the rest of her check.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Carlin, the purpose of this call to Mr. Ruby was, as you have stated it, is that correct?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You were not asked by anyone to make this call, is that correct?

Mr. CARLIN. That's correct, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. No one suggested to you other than your wife, of course, and Ruby himself, that this call be made?

Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Insofar as Ruby suggested it be made, he didn't suggest anytime, as far as you were concerned, that it be made?

Mr. CARLIN. If he said this, I didn't hear him saying it to her on the phone. She did ask me to call, I believe, once, maybe twice, before we found the money was there. Just as soon as we found out----

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how you all decided to call Ruby on the 24th when you did call him?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes. The fact that he said to call, and when we got up, she said that we should call, and then after we heard of Oswald's death, I think just a few minutes, I asked if the money had come in, and they said no, and I think she called and found out later that the money had come in.

Mr. HUBERT. But I mean, the time of the call to Ruby was not planned or fixed in anyway? It was completely gratuitous?

Mr. CARLIN. When we woke up, we called him. We slept late that day.

Mr. HUBERT. No time had been set prior to calling him?

Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Carlin, have you been interviewed by any members of the President's Commission other than myself today?

Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose we did have what might be considered to be a little interview in some conversation in the hall. Do you recall anything that was said in the hall which has not been brought out in your deposition and your wife's deposition which I understand you have adopted with the amendments that have been made? In other words, I am trying to ask you if there is anything that we talked about that hasn't been put in the record, because if it hasn't we ought to get it in there now.

Mr. CARLIN. I understand, but I cannot think of anything.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Jackson, have you anything that you would like to question your client, Mr. Carlin, about, or any statement you wish to make, or observation?

Mr. JACKSON. None.

Mr. HUBERT. That being the case, I think that is all.

On another note regarding those Phase One Castro Assassination plots and the ONI, it is interesting to note that one Robert Morris was stationed at Guam circa 1945 which is of extreme interest for those in the know.

Officer-in-Charge Advance Psychological Warfare Section of CINCPAC [under Commander-in-Chief, Chester Nimitz] on Guam. (20)

In the Pacific, Morris interrogated Japanese POWs and wrote threats on what looked like money which were then dropped by the proverbial planeload on Japanese cities.(21) This was part of Pastel which had been "hastily sketched by Admiral Nimitz' staff in May 1945." Pastel was a pure psyop designed to "convey to the Japanese a false story of where the actual assault landings [as part of a planned invasion of Japan] would occur." It involved, among other things, submarine penetration, leafleting, aerial reconnaissance, photography, bombing and strafing missions, manipulation of radio traffic, media deception, and allowing POWs to escape after letting them witness bogus amphibious training where misleading place names were used.(22)

See ROBERT J MORRIS TIMELINE, PART 1 - 1939-1945

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...pic=8770&hl

END

Edited October 28, 2009 by Robert Howard

[Greg Parker]

In the October 5th, 1963 Edition of the Dallas Morning News, Deen's death was carried in a short article with the heading

"Dr. Deen Found dead at home" Dallas Morning News October 5, 1963

The body of Dr. George C. Deen, 30 was found Friday in his apartment on the grounds of Timberlawn Psychiatric Center 4600 Samuell Blvd where he had been a resident physician since 1962. Justice of the Peace W.E. Richburg ordered an autopsy before returning a verdict. Dr. Joe W. King, also a resident physician, told police that when Dr Deen failed to report for duty, he went to his apartment and discovered the body slumped in a chair. Deen was head of a bi-racial group in Dallas known as the Committee for Full Citizenship, under his leadership the Committee this fall urged every eligible Negro student in the Dallas area to apply for admittance to an integrated school. Survivors include his wife; family Dr and Mrs C.C. Deen of Wichita Falls.

FWIW,

Throughout its history at 2700 Flora Street, Moorland YMCA served as a meeting place for various

groups. It was “neutral ground” for different church groups to meet with one another. It also was the

meeting place for civil rights advocacy groups45. Much of the civil rights movement in Dallas was based

at Moorland YMCA. In the 1950s, the NAACP held its public meetings at the YMCA, and many

travelers who would come to the area throughout this time and into the 1960s stayed at Moorland when

no other facilities would shelter them46.

In 1963, in the heat of the Civil Rights Movement, the Dallas Committee for Full Citizenship was formed.

Calling for full desegregation of Dallas schools and “dedicated to working for the complete desegregation

of the greater Dallas community through nonviolent methods,” the 50-member group was one of several

that met at Moorland YMCA47. The Committee for Full Citizenship, led by Dr. George Deen, staff

psychiatrist at Timberlawn hospital, went on to participate in statewide demonstrations for integration

http://www.dbdt.com/downloads/2700-Flora-Street.pdf.

Beyond interesting, is the fact that in that time period, George DeMohrenschildt lived five doors down from William Thompson Wolf's residence on Dickens Ave., which is so close to SMU it is practically a "stones throw away from the campus." DeMohrenschildt lived at 6628 Dickens Ave., Wolf as indicate above, lived at 6618 Dickens.

DeM had a habit of being "in proximity". When he lived in New York, it was just down the road from the law firm where Robert Morris was working. And then there was that walking tour of Latin America which took him to Guatemala City coinciding with the BoP.

[Guest John Gillespie]

"For that matter, what in the devil is one to make of the expression discreet inquiry concerning someone, who, at that time was being speculated as the ersatz possible assassin of President Kennedy."

Robert,

First, I admire your restraint and that of Bill in dealing with the purposefully vague and ever pompous Mr. Thom. But FYI, in the matter of 'discreet inquiry': I feel comfortable in stating that the expression simply means that the Agent is advised not to imply, act or otherwise hint in any way, including demeanor, that the subject of the investigation - or the investigtion intself - is anything but routine. One tends to get more information with that approach, anyway, right BK?

Not to overstate this, but I'm sure we all realize that if Oswald had gotten away and then Jack W. Martin's name, or any other name connected with any of the contingency plans, hit the fan, the 'discreet inquiry' instruction would have been off the board.

Keep Up The Good Work,

JG

[Guest Tom Scully]

"For that matter, what in the devil is one to make of the expression discreet inquiry concerning someone, who, at that time was being speculated as the ersatz possible assassin of President Kennedy."

Robert,

First, I admire your restraint and that of Bill in dealing with the purposefully vague and ever pompous Mr. Thom. But FYI, in the matter of 'discreet inquiry': I feel comfortable in stating that the expression simply means that the Agent is advised not to imply, act or otherwise hint in any way, including demeanor, that the subject of the investigation - or the investigtion intself - is anything but routine. One tends to get more information with that approach, anyway, right BK?

Not to overstate this, but I'm sure we all realize that if Oswald had gotten away and then Jack W. Martin's name, or any other name connected with any of the contingency plans, hit the fan, the 'discreet inquiry' instruction would have been off the board.

Keep Up The Good Work,

JG

Again, and not to belabor the point (and I think it would be a tall order to do do, given my recent experience in looking into SA Rice's background...)... the common theme when one examines the record related to the SS investigation coming from the city Oswald had deepest and recent, lengthy ties to, is the lack of transparency. A void that exists not only in the details that have emerged from the various segments of investigation, Jack W. Martin; instant suspect with no visible means of support who then fades permanently from the scene, Adele Edisen and her story of approaching SA Rice on 24 Nov., 1963, and the mystery of the details of the life and SS career of John W. Rice, himself.

One of the most important figures in the events surrounding the assassination of JFK is Adele Edisen. ...

....Edisen told them the story of how she met Rivera in Atlantic City and Washington in April. She also supplied the agents with Rivera's office and home telephone numbers. Edisen later claimed that: "Agent Rice asked me to call them if I remembered anything else, and requested that I not tell anyone I had been there to speak with them. I understood this to be for my own protection as well as for their investigation. Both agents thanked me for speaking with them."

Edisen contacted Rice a few days later and he told her, "Don't worry. That man can't hurt you." Edisen assumed that Rivera had been arrested and that she would be called as a witness before the Warren Commission. "When the Warren Report was published, I was mystified and dismayed by the conclusion that Oswald acted alone, and that Jack Ruby acted alone, for my experiences told me otherwise."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKedisen.htm

Icing on this cake are the observation that SA Rice was not called to testify by the WC or by the HSCA, although, even if the details posted above did not exist, he was responsible for finding out what Oswald was doing in New Orleans during the last months of his life, and earlier, and because Oswald had relatives living in that city who should have been of interest to serious and thorough investigators.

Further, one now wonders why Vince Palamara permitted almost all details related to John W. Rice and his career to remain undisclosed to the point that Bill Kelly started posting blunt, serious questions about who Rice was and where he came from. Vince posts on his blog that he has interviewed 70 SS members and or their relatives; that he specializes in the research of SS agents during the JFK and LBJ administrations, yet he leaves Rice unexamined.

http://vincepalamara.blogspot.com/2009/02/...ian-secret.html

Even if Vince was unable to find out and relate how Rice came to be New Orleans SAIC, the things I posted above make what I think are a strong justification for intense effort by Vince to find out what he could about John Rice. Surely, if Vince asked, some of the 70 agents he has interviewed would have provided some details about Rice for Vince to pass along, during all of the years Vince has been doing this.

Where is Vince's information about John W Rice?

Bill Kelly intuitively summed up the problems I have with this serial lack of transparency in post #1 of this thread:

At 1:40 PM, an hour and ten minutes after the assassination, Dallas Secret Service Agent Robert A. Steuart, who was assigned to the Trade Mart that day, had the name of a suspect in the shooting, and requested clerk in the Dallas Secret Service office Lillian Rhyan to call the New Orleans office and ask them to make some discreet inquiries about this suspect - Jack W. Martin, of Goldonna, Louisiana.

The story is reported at the bottom of a report on:

List of books obtained by Lee Harvey Oswald form New Orleans Public Library. ...

.....

Of course, someone as important as the Special Agent In Charge of the New Orleans Secret Service office John W. Rice was never called to testify before the Warren Commission and has never been interviewed about the assassination.

It would be nice to know what SPIC NO SS John W. Rice was doing on official business at the Special Investigations office at Barksdale AFB in Shreveport, La., and whether he was investigating the Rose Cheramie allegations, or another possible threat to the life of the president.

SA Robert Steuart also managed to avoid being properly interviewed, but one writer got him to talk without attribution, as Vince Palmara notes.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:9e6rek...=clnk&gl=us

Vince wrote: "One final clue to both the mystery of ..... November 22 may come from the statements of former Dallas agent Robert A. Steuart, as revealed in Bill Sloan's 1993 work, (JFK- Breaking the Silence pp 1-5). Although the agent who spoke to Sloan was unnamed in the book, Sloan confirmed to me the agent's identity based on my firm conviction that this agent HAD to have been Steuart. Why? Because, as I told Sloan, the agent used the identical language with me during my two "attempted" interviews with him in 1992 and 1993; in any event, Sloan confirmed my suspicions. So, just what did Steuart say to Sloan (and me)?"

"Sworn to absolute secrecy about the 'Kennedy thing,' Steuart went on to say, 'I can't talk about it...There are so many things I could tell you, but I just can't... I can't tell you anything... I'd like to, but I can't.... It was a very heavy deal, and they would know. Someone would know. It's...too dangerous, even now.'"

There should be more information on John W. Martin, but I haven't been able to find it.

(Thanks to Robert Howard for assistance on this)

[William O'Neil]

In the October 5th, 1963 Edition of the Dallas Morning News, Deen's death was carried in a short article with the heading

"Dr. Deen Found dead at home" Dallas Morning News October 5, 1963

The body of Dr. George C. Deen, 30 was found Friday in his apartment on the grounds of Timberlawn Psychiatric Center 4600 Samuell Blvd where he had been a resident physician since 1962. Justice of the Peace W.E. Richburg ordered an autopsy before returning a verdict. Dr. Joe W. King, also a resident physician, told police that when Dr Deen failed to report for duty, he went to his apartment and discovered the body slumped in a chair. Deen was head of a bi-racial group in Dallas known as the Committee for Full Citizenship, under his leadership the Committee this fall urged every eligible Negro student in the Dallas area to apply for admittance to an integrated school. Survivors include his wife; family Dr and Mrs C.C. Deen of Wichita Falls.

FWIW,

Throughout its history at 2700 Flora Street, Moorland YMCA served as a meeting place for various

groups. It was “neutral ground” for different church groups to meet with one another. It also was the

meeting place for civil rights advocacy groups45. Much of the civil rights movement in Dallas was based

at Moorland YMCA. In the 1950s, the NAACP held its public meetings at the YMCA, and many

travelers who would come to the area throughout this time and into the 1960s stayed at Moorland when

no other facilities would shelter them46.

In 1963, in the heat of the Civil Rights Movement, the Dallas Committee for Full Citizenship was formed.

Calling for full desegregation of Dallas schools and “dedicated to working for the complete desegregation

of the greater Dallas community through nonviolent methods,” the 50-member group was one of several

that met at Moorland YMCA47. The Committee for Full Citizenship, led by Dr. George Deen, staff

psychiatrist at Timberlawn hospital, went on to participate in statewide demonstrations for integration

http://www.dbdt.com/downloads/2700-Flora-Street.pdf.

Beyond interesting, is the fact that in that time period, George DeMohrenschildt lived five doors down from William Thompson Wolf's residence on Dickens Ave., which is so close to SMU it is practically a "stones throw away from the campus." DeMohrenschildt lived at 6628 Dickens Ave., Wolf as indicate above, lived at 6618 Dickens.

DeM had a habit of being "in proximity". When he lived in New York, it was just down the road from the law firm where Robert Morris was working. And then there was that walking tour of Latin America which took him to Guatemala City coinciding with the BoP.

Greg , Funny how Walker tries to tie Os and Ruby to Wolf's demise. Knowing what I do about "Ted" and his penchant for mis-direction, I would start looking among Walkers group, for a suspect in Wolf's death. As for Deen, well... "The Eye's of Texas are Upon You" son....and when your in the biz of Civil Rights... that's not a good thing.

-Bill