Robert Harris and the CE399 Tom Foolery!

Mike Williams · May 16, 2010

From DVP,

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassi...0b29d1e6fb9f760

In September of 2009, conspiracy theorist Robert Harris started the forum thread linked above, wherein he was positive that Texas Highway Patrol Officer Bobby M. Nolan had not placed his initials on Commission Exhibit No. 842 (the "foreign body" envelope containing bullet fragments removed from Governor Connally's wrist), which is an envelope that Nolan received from Parkland Hospital nurse Audrey Bell.

Harris said this in the above-linked thread:

"The [Connally] fragments were labelled as CE842. .... Where do you see Nolan's initials [on CE842]? .... There is NO envelope among all the records that are available to the public which contain Nolan's initials. That envelope was destroyed." -- Robert Harris; September 8, 2009

But when eagle-eyed "ShutterBun" discovered the very next day that Bobby Nolan's initials were, in fact, on CE842 (but the envelope needed to be turned upside-down to read the initials properly), Bob Harris was forced to eat a substantial bit of crow concerning this issue and was forced to acknowledge that Nolan's initials are, indeed, visible on CE842.

Here is ShutterBun's 9/9/09 post concerning the verification of Nolan's initials:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassi...5e6514781981040

Well, Robert Harris wasn't bound to accept total defeat regarding this CE842 issue. Since he could no longer claim that Nolan's initials were not on the envelope in question, Harris decided to look more closely at some of the other initials that appear on that piece of evidence. And what did Mr. Harris find? He found that Audrey Bell's initials had very likely been planted or forged onto CE842 (and somebody else's initials had been crudely erased right underneath Bell's initials).

Harris makes this allegation regarding the alleged "forged" initials of Audrey Bell in an Internet forum thread he started at John Simkin's Education Forum last month, on April 19, 2010 (and he has probably made the very same allegation at other Internet forums too):

"The FBI...altered the evidence envelope that held the bullet and forged the name of nurse Audrey Bell, to make it appear that the envelope held the fragments from Connally's wrist, instead of the bullet from his leg." -- Robert Harris; 4/19/10

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15792

Well, here on May 16, 2010, eight months after the confirmation of Bobby Nolan's initials on the envelope seen in CE842, I decided to take another look at Bob Harris' video called "The Scam Of CE399" (which was recently made available on Jim DiEugenio's CTKA.net website as well).

http://jfkhistory.com/ce399f/ce399f.mov

And then I decided to perform the same simple piece of investigation that ShutterBun had performed in September 2009 -- I simply turned Commission Exhibit No. 842 upside-down and looked at the initials that Harris is claiming are the "forged" initials of nurse Audrey Bell.

And what did I find?

I found that the initials that Harris believes are Bell's are, in fact, the initials of Dallas Police Captain J. Will Fritz ("JWF"). Let's have a look:

Here's CE842 as it appears on page 841 of Warren Commission Volume 17:

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0434a.htm

And to confirm that the "JWF" initials that we see in CE842 are consistent with the known handwriting of Captain John Will Fritz of the Dallas Police Department, I looked up several different documents that contained Fritz' signature, and I confirmed that the "JWF" seen in CE842 does, indeed, match the handwriting of Fritz (see the three examples linked below; and pay particular attention to the way Captain Fritz writes the letter "W", with very sharp points at the bottom of each "W"):

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0494-002.gif

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0497-002.gif

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/05/0500-002.gif

And, btw, in Robert Harris' very own telephone interview with Bobby Nolan, Nolan told Harris that after he received the envelope from Nurse Bell at Parkland, he then took the envelope to the Dallas Police Department and turned it over to "someone...in Will Fritz' office":

"When I took the bullet down to the police department, I gave it to someone there. .... IT WAS IN WILL FRITZ' OFFICE." -- Bobby M. Nolan; Via telephone conversation between Nolan and Robert Harris; circa 2009 (Emphasis added by DVP)

Therefore, it seems perfectly reasonable to find Fritz' initials ("JWF") on that envelope in CE842.

I guess Mr. Harris didn't learn his lesson last September. That lesson being this one:

Before accusing people of planting or forging evidence in the JFK murder case, be sure to look at all of the evidence UPSIDE-DOWN.

And that really should be an easy rule for conspiracy theorists to follow too, because all of their theories about the JFK assassination are always upside-down and topsy-turvy anyway.

So, I guess Bob Harris will need to revise his conspiracy theory concerning CE842 yet again. And this time I would assume that Harris will claim that Captain Fritz' "JWF" initials have been "forged" onto the envelope.

Right, Bob?

How could someone have missed such an obvious error?

More importantly, after having been shown such an error, why would someone continue on knowing they were wrong?

The snake oil business must be booming.

Robert Harris · June 1, 2010

From DVP,
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassi...0b29d1e6fb9f760

In September of 2009, conspiracy theorist Robert Harris started the forum thread linked above, wherein he was positive that Texas Highway Patrol Officer Bobby M. Nolan had not placed his initials on Commission Exhibit No. 842 (the "foreign body" envelope containing bullet fragments removed from Governor Connally's wrist), which is an envelope that Nolan received from Parkland Hospital nurse Audrey Bell.

Harris said this in the above-linked thread:

"The [Connally] fragments were labelled as CE842. .... Where do you see Nolan's initials [on CE842]? .... There is NO envelope among all the records that are available to the public which contain Nolan's initials. That envelope was destroyed." -- Robert Harris; September 8, 2009

But when eagle-eyed "ShutterBun" discovered the very next day that Bobby Nolan's initials were, in fact, on CE842 (but the envelope needed to be turned upside-down to read the initials properly), Bob Harris was forced to eat a substantial bit of crow concerning this issue and was forced to acknowledge that Nolan's initials are, indeed, visible on CE842.

Here is ShutterBun's 9/9/09 post concerning the verification of Nolan's initials:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassi...5e6514781981040

Well, Robert Harris wasn't bound to accept total defeat regarding this CE842 issue. Since he could no longer claim that Nolan's initials were not on the envelope in question, Harris decided to look more closely at some of the other initials that appear on that piece of evidence. And what did Mr. Harris find? He found that Audrey Bell's initials had very likely been planted or forged onto CE842 (and somebody else's initials had been crudely erased right underneath Bell's initials).

Harris makes this allegation regarding the alleged "forged" initials of Audrey Bell in an Internet forum thread he started at John Simkin's Education Forum last month, on April 19, 2010 (and he has probably made the very same allegation at other Internet forums too):

"The FBI...altered the evidence envelope that held the bullet and forged the name of nurse Audrey Bell, to make it appear that the envelope held the fragments from Connally's wrist, instead of the bullet from his leg." -- Robert Harris; 4/19/10

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15792

Well, here on May 16, 2010, eight months after the confirmation of Bobby Nolan's initials on the envelope seen in CE842, I decided to take another look at Bob Harris' video called "The Scam Of CE399" (which was recently made available on Jim DiEugenio's CTKA.net website as well).

http://jfkhistory.com/ce399f/ce399f.mov

And then I decided to perform the same simple piece of investigation that ShutterBun had performed in September 2009 -- I simply turned Commission Exhibit No. 842 upside-down and looked at the initials that Harris is claiming are the "forged" initials of nurse Audrey Bell.

And what did I find?

I found that the initials that Harris believes are Bell's are, in fact, the initials of Dallas Police Captain J. Will Fritz ("JWF"). Let's have a look:

Here's CE842 as it appears on page 841 of Warren Commission Volume 17:

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0434a.htm

And to confirm that the "JWF" initials that we see in CE842 are consistent with the known handwriting of Captain John Will Fritz of the Dallas Police Department, I looked up several different documents that contained Fritz' signature, and I confirmed that the "JWF" seen in CE842 does, indeed, match the handwriting of Fritz (see the three examples linked below; and pay particular attention to the way Captain Fritz writes the letter "W", with very sharp points at the bottom of each "W"):

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0494-002.gif

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0497-002.gif

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/05/0500-002.gif

And, btw, in Robert Harris' very own telephone interview with Bobby Nolan, Nolan told Harris that after he received the envelope from Nurse Bell at Parkland, he then took the envelope to the Dallas Police Department and turned it over to "someone...in Will Fritz' office":

"When I took the bullet down to the police department, I gave it to someone there. .... IT WAS IN WILL FRITZ' OFFICE." -- Bobby M. Nolan; Via telephone conversation between Nolan and Robert Harris; circa 2009 (Emphasis added by DVP)

Therefore, it seems perfectly reasonable to find Fritz' initials ("JWF") on that envelope in CE842.

I guess Mr. Harris didn't learn his lesson last September. That lesson being this one:

Before accusing people of planting or forging evidence in the JFK murder case, be sure to look at all of the evidence UPSIDE-DOWN.

And that really should be an easy rule for conspiracy theorists to follow too, because all of their theories about the JFK assassination are always upside-down and topsy-turvy anyway.

So, I guess Bob Harris will need to revise his conspiracy theory concerning CE842 yet again. And this time I would assume that Harris will claim that Captain Fritz' "JWF" initials have been "forged" onto the envelope.

Right, Bob?

How could someone have missed such an obvious error?

More importantly, after having been shown such an error, why would someone continue on knowing they were wrong?

The snake oil business must be booming.

This kind of article is typical of David Von Pein and his partner, Mike Williams. He seems to believe he has a scored some kind of victory by stating that the garbled initials which have been written over erased and partially erased characters on that envelope, look more like Will Fritz's than nurse Audrey Bell's. But the simple fact is, that whoever those initials belonged to, they could not be authentic.

Look at the image in the posting above, paying particular attention to the character segments and partially erased characters that are mixed in with the garbled initials. Fritz should have been the last man to sign off on that envelope before it went to the FBI and would NEVER have signed off on a garbled mess like that, which would have gotten the evidence in the envelope thrown out of court. The erasures and alterations could ONLY have been done AFTER the envelope was passed on to the FBI.

More importantly, nurse Bell's initials are nowhere to be seen on the envelope, in spite of the fact that she was required to sign off on it, and that she obviously expected to spot them when she was shown the envelope during her ARRB interrogation.

Almost everything Bell stated, contradicted what Nolan said. Bell said two men in suits who were from the FBI or Secret Service, came into her office, where she turned over the envelope that contained particles from Connally's wrists. She was adamant that they were not in uniform, as Officer Nolan was.

Nolan said a young nurse came out into the hallway and asked who she should give the envelope to and Connallly's aide, Bill Stinson told her to give it to Nolan. She told him at the time that it contained a "bullet" from Gov. Connally's leg. The next day, Nolan took it to the DPD, where it was logged in as a single fragment. But how could they have done that if it was labeled as containing multiple "fragments" from Connally's wrist, as the final version of that envelope was?

Perhaps the fact that the handwriting which described them as plural, was distinctly different from the handwriting above that line, just might have had something to do with it. This was important evidence folks, in a rather important case. There is no way the police would have labeled it as singular if the envelope was labeled then, as plural - unless of course, that description was written in later.

This was undoubtedly, the same nurse who Gov. Connally described, retrieving the bullet that fell from his thigh as he was being transferred into his hospital bed, and the same nurse who showed the bullet to Dallas DA Henry Wade. It was certainly NOT nurse Bell, who as an experienced supervisor would never have walked out into the hall, asking what she should do with an evidence envelope.

Of course David and his minion is aware of all this but chooses to evade the facts which prove this envelope was an obvious forgery. Even he does not dispute the fact that initials have been erased and overwritten. But rather than discuss those facts, he instead looks for "gotchas" which he hopes to use to embarrass his adversaries. The simple fact is, that every relevant piece of evidence supports the fact that the ce842 envelope was altered and contained forged characters. Look at it yourself. In particular, look at the handwriting in the lines in the top section, all of which Bell stated that she filled out herself. The line containing the description of the contents is clearly different from those above it.

David knows he is wrong about this and continues to evade the facts and evidence. It's not surprising that he didn't even have the courage to post this sewage here himself.

Robert Harris

Edited June 1, 2010 by Robert Harris

Mike Williams · June 1, 2010

Even he does not dispute the fact that initials have been erased and overwritten.

Another complete fabrication by Harris.

DVP said exactly:"You can't prove any initials were "erased". You just want to believe that. And even if something was erased, you can't prove that such action was conspiratorial in nature. Can you, Bob?" --- DVP; 05/19/10

SO now that we all realize that Harris simply examined the evidence up side down, which is funny as all get out, we see that he can not even be relied upon to tell the truth regarding a simple exchange.

I dont know about anyone else, but I for one and not surprised.

William Kelly · June 2, 2010

James DiEugenio writes:

"Since I have given Von Pein three pastings in a little over a month, one of them specifically over the issue of the provenance of CE 399, I kind of guessed that he would go after the Bob Harris video since John Kelin and myself posted it at ctka.net.

(You can see two of the pastings at http://www.ctka.net/2010/dvp.html)

The reason I posted it there was because Robert included the previous work of Tink Thompson, Gary Aguilar, and John Hunt on this issue i.e. the switching of the Parkland Hospital bullet for CE 399.

In the first part of my two-part essay on Von Pein, I closed with eight questions that DVP should have posed to Vince Bugliosi about this issue. He did not pose any of them. All he did was relay the message from the prosecutor that the judge in that phony London Showtime trial had admitted a picture of CE 399 into evidence, and that he felt he could get the exhibit admitted at an actual trial. Von Pein, predictably, did not challenge either point. Even though Bugliosi said that the chain of custody test means showing that the prosecution's exhibit is what they say it is.

As Bob Tanenbaum said in Pittsburgh in 2003, one way to do this is through eyewitness identification.

Now, a pre-trial evidence admittance hearing is called a 402 proceeding. If the Dallas Police had not helped Ruby kill Oswald, there would have been several of these at Oswald's trial e.g. over the paper package which Wesley Frazier and his sister saw. (Although it is highly unlikely she saw it, and the mother made no mention of it to the FBI.)

But the one on CE 399 would have been most interesting. Even amusing.

If I were defending Oswald, I would have called D. Tomlinson, O P Wright, his wife, Bardwell Odum, and Elmer Lee Todd for starters.

Tomlinson would show two things: there is a question as to whose stretcher CE 399 was found on. TInk Thompson deduced that it probably was not found on Kennedy's or Connally's but a little boy named Ronald Fuller. (See Thompson pgs. 161-164, Marrs p. 364) And Tomlinson always felt that Arlen Specter had manipulated him on the stretcher identification issue. (Marrs pgs 363-64) Secondly, although he was not as familiar with weapons and ammo as Wright, he rejected CE 399 as the bullet found and said it was more like a pointed hunting round. (Marrs, p. 365) Right here, with the first witness, you have the beginning of an origination problem and an identification problem.

OP Wright would deepen this. Since he was very experienced with guns and ammo. When Thompson showed him a photo of CE 399 he immediately rejected it. (Thompson, p. 175) And he showed Thompson what it actually looked like and Thompson has a photo of this in his book. (ibid) No one as familiar with guns as ex law enforcement officer Wright could mistake one for the other.

Arlen Specter knew this. So when you look at the listing of Commission witnesses in Walt Brown's valuable book "The Warren Omission", you will not see OP Wright's name. Does anyone except Dave Von Pein -- and maybe Mike Williams -- think there were 500 witnesses more important than Wright? If you do, you need some help.

So now, you have both people who handled the stretcher bullet saying that the bullet in evidence -- the Magic Bullet which is absolutely essential to the Commission's efficacy ---- is not the bullet they turned over to the authorities. By Vincent Bugliosi's own definition, the government's version of the exhibit is not what the primary witnesses say it was. (See the first part of my DVP essay.)

Wright's wife was supervisor of nursing at Parkland. When Thompson went looking for Wright again after Oliver Stone's film came out, he found out he had passed away, but she was still alive. She told Thompson that there were other bullets found that day! (See Part 1 of my Reclaiming History review.)

This was startling, to everyone except Von Pein. And it may be that this Harris bullet is one of the others planted that day. Her testimony gives you a background to make the evidence planting more viable.

Bardwell Odum would give you the witness you need inside the FBI to show that Hoover knew that Wright would never identify CE 399 as the evidence he turned over.

When Aguilar and Thompson found him in retirement they decided to interview him.

For an FBI report of 6/12/64 says that Odum showed CE 399 to Wright and Tomlinson. The report says that both men said the bullet "appears to be the same one" they found on the stretcher.

So on November 24, 2001, 38 years after Kennedy's murder, the public found out that Hoover lied about this identification. For on that day, Thompson and Aguilar did what the HSCA should have done if Robert Blakey would not have been such a flunky. They showed the FBi report to Odum. He denied he ever showed CE 399 to any Parkland Hospital employee. (The Assassinations, edited by James DiEugenio and Lisa Pease, p. 284) Further, since he knew Wright, he would have recalled such an event.

Odum would show that the FBI knew that CE 399 was not the bullet found at Parkland.

Does it get any better than that?

Actually, it does. As everyone knows both the FBI and the Commission say in writing that FBI agent Elmer Lee Todd put his initials on CE 399. (Thompson, p. 155) Todd is crucial since he picked up the bullet at the White House from the Secret Service and then delivered it to the FBI lab and Robert Frazier that evening. Researcher John Hunt did something that neither Von Pein nor his hero Vincent Bugliosi did not. He went to the National Archives to see if this was true. Guess what, to no one's surprise except maybe Von Pein's, it is not. Hunt photographed the entire circumference of CE 399 and Todd's initials are not there. (See my Reclaiming History series, Part 7, Section 3.) So you would now have Todd on the stand trying to explain why the FBI lied about his initials and why they are not there if he did handle the bullet.

But further, Todd would have something else to explain. Frazier wrote down the time he received the stretcher bullet as 7:30. This one would tie Todd in knots. For he wrote down the time he got the bullet from the Secret Service as 8:50. If that does not constitute a break in the chain of custody then I don't know what does. The Magic Bullet is more magical than anyone ever dreamed.

So on both the chain of custody and the identification question, what prosecutor would want to go through a 402 hearing on CE 399? Maybe Von Pein, but who else? This is why this was all avoided in the phony trial that Bugliosi took part in. But if I were defending Oswald I would not ask for the 402 proceeding. At a 402, the jury is out of the room. I would want them to see and her all of this. Especially the parts about Hoover lying about a bullet he knows is the wrong one. Judges and juries don' t like to hear this kind of thing. Because it says the prosecution cannot be trusted. And it casts aspersions on the entire phalanx of evidence presented.

I would want this all in the open because after you destroyed Brennan, showed how the police coerced Frazier, showed how Givens changed history, and have Sebastian LaTona show how a print in Dallas disappeared on a plane to Washington, CE 399 would be the icing on the cake.

After that debacle, I would move to throw out the prosecution case on the grounds that it was the result of misconduct. Which of course, we know that Wade and Fritz did a lot of. But not as much as Hoover. I would then sue both the DPD and FBI and make Oswald -- and myself -- rich men.

Von Pein and Williams ignore all this. And they try and discredit it all by saying Harris made a mistake. As if Bob making an error erases the clear substitution of evidence that was concealed by the FBI for almost 40 years. And which helped frame an innocent man.

The Harris video is not perfect. It couldn't be since Specter and the FBI made sure the trail would be cold and covered up when it came time to show how the bullet was actually switched. But Harris has made a decent start. That Von Pein says not a word about what Hoover and the Commission did in this fiasco, or how it was concealed for decades, but instead goes after a mistake by Harris -- well that tells you all you need to know about Davey Boy.

And also Mr. Williams.

Edited June 2, 2010 by William Kelly

Mike Williams · June 2, 2010

James DiEugenio writes:
"Since I have given Von Pein three pastings in a little over a month, one of them specifically over the issue of the provenance of CE 399, I kind of guessed that he would go after the Bob Harris video since John Kelin and myself posted it at ctka.net.

(You can see two of the pastings at http://www.ctka.net/2010/dvp.html)

The reason I posted it there was because Robert included the previous work of Tink Thompson, Gary Aguilar, and John Hunt on this issue i.e. the switching of the Parkland Hospital bullet for CE 399.

In the first part of my two-part essay on Von Pein, I closed with eight questions that DVP should have posed to Vince Bugliosi about this issue. He did not pose any of them. All he did was relay the message from the prosecutor that the judge in that phony London Showtime trial had admitted a picture of CE 399 into evidence, and that he felt he could get the exhibit admitted at an actual trial. Von Pein, predictably, did not challenge either point. Even though Bugliosi said that the chain of custody test means showing that the prosecution's exhibit is what they say it is.

As Bob Tanenbaum said in Pittsburgh in 2003, one way to do this is through eyewitness identification.

Now, a pre-trial evidence admittance hearing is called a 402 proceeding. If the Dallas Police had not helped Ruby kill Oswald, there would have been several of these at Oswald's trial e.g. over the paper package which Wesley Frazier and his sister saw. (Although it is highly unlikely she saw it, and the mother made no mention of it to the FBI.)

But the one on CE 399 would have been most interesting. Even amusing.

If I were defending Oswald, I would have called D. Tomlinson, O P Wright, his wife, Bardwell Odum, and Elmer Lee Todd for starters.

Tomlinson would show two things: there is a question as to whose stretcher CE 399 was found on. TInk Thompson deduced that it probably was not found on Kennedy's or Connally's but a little boy named Ronald Fuller. (See Thompson pgs. 161-164, Marrs p. 364) And Tomlinson always felt that Arlen Specter had manipulated him on the stretcher identification issue. (Marrs pgs 363-64) Secondly, although he was not as familiar with weapons and ammo as Wright, he rejected CE 399 as the bullet found and said it was more like a pointed hunting round. (Marrs, p. 365) Right here, with the first witness, you have the beginning of an origination problem and an identification problem.

OP Wright would deepen this. Since he was very experienced with guns and ammo. When Thompson showed him a photo of CE 399 he immediately rejected it. (Thompson, p. 175) And he showed Thompson what it actually looked like and Thompson has a photo of this in his book. (ibid) No one as familiar with guns as ex law enforcement officer Wright could mistake one for the other.

Arlen Specter knew this. So when you look at the listing of Commission witnesses in Walt Brown's valuable book "The Warren Omission", you will not see OP Wright's name. Does anyone except Dave Von Pein -- and maybe Mike Williams -- think there were 500 witnesses more important than Wright? If you do, you need some help.

So now, you have both people who handled the stretcher bullet saying that the bullet in evidence -- the Magic Bullet which is absolutely essential to the Commission's efficacy ---- is not the bullet they turned over to the authorities. By Vincent Bugliosi's own definition, the government's version of the exhibit is not what the primary witnesses say it was. (See the first part of my DVP essay.)

Wright's wife was supervisor of nursing at Parkland. When Thompson went looking for Wright again after Oliver Stone's film came out, he found out he had passed away, but she was still alive. She told Thompson that there were other bullets found that day! (See Part 1 of my Reclaiming History review.)

This was startling, to everyone except Von Pein. And it may be that this Harris bullet is one of the others planted that day. Her testimony gives you a background to make the evidence planting more viable.

Bardwell Odum would give you the witness you need inside the FBI to show that Hoover knew that Wright would never identify CE 399 as the evidence he turned over.

When Aguilar and Thompson found him in retirement they decided to interview him.

For an FBI report of 6/12/64 says that Odum showed CE 399 to Wright and Tomlinson. The report says that both men said the bullet "appear to be the same one" they found on the stretcher. A funny thing happened when the authors confronted Odum with this report. This was puzzling since another FBI report of 6/2/64 says that neither man can identify the bullet.

So on November 24, 2001, 38 years after Kennedy's murder, the public found out that Hoover lied about this identification. For on that day, Thompson and Aguilar did what the HSCA should have done if Robert Blakey would not have been such a flunky. They showed the FBi report to Odum. He denied he ever showed CE 399 to any Parkland Hospital employee. (The Assassinations, edited by James DiEugenio and Lisa Pease, p. 284) Further, since he knew Wright, he would have recalled such an event.

Odum would show that the FBI knew that CE 399 was not the bullet found at Parkland.

Does it get any better than that?

Actually, it does. As everyone knows both the FBI and the Commission say in writing that FBI agent Elmer Lee Todd put his initials on CE 399. (Thompson, p. 155) Todd is crucial since he picked up the bullet at the White House from the Secret Service and then delivered it to the FBI lab and Robert Frazier that evening. Researcher John Hunt did something that neither Von Pein nor his hero Vincent Bugliosi did not. He went to the National Archives to see if this was true. Guess what, to no one's surprise except maybe Von Pein's, it is not. Hunt photographed the entire circumference of CE 399 and Todd's initials are not there. (See my Reclaiming History series, Part 7, Section 3.) So you would now have Todd on the stand trying to explain why the FBI lied about his initials and why they are not there if he did handle the bullet.

But further, Todd would have something else to explain. Frazier wrote down the time he received the stretcher bullet as 7:30. This one would tie Todd in knots. For he wrote down the time he got the bullet from the Secret Service as 8:50. If that does not constitute a break in the chain of custody then I don't know what does. The Magic Bullet is more magical than anyone ever dreamed.

So on both the chain of custody and the identification question, what prosecutor would want to go through a 402 hearing on CE 399? Maybe Von Pein, but who else? This is why this was all avoided in the phony trial that Bugliosi took part in. But if I were defending Oswald I would not ask for the 402 proceeding. At a 402, the jury is out of the room. I would want them to see and her all of this. Especially the parts about Hoover lying about a bullet he knows is the wrong one. Judges and juries don' t like to hear this kind of thing. Because it says the prosecution cannot be trusted. And it casts aspersions on the entire phalanx of evidence presented.

I would want this all in the open because after you destroyed Brennan, showed how the police coerced Frazier, showed how Givens changed history, and have Sebastian LaTona show how a print in Dallas disappeared on a plane to Washington, CE 399 would be the icing on the cake.

After that debacle, I would move to throw out the prosecution case on the grounds that it was the result of misconduct. Which of course, we know that Wade and Fritz did a lot of. But not as much as Hoover. I would then sue both the DPD and FBI and make Oswald -- and myself -- rich men.

Von Pein and Bugliosi ignore all this. And they try and discredit it all by saying Harris made a mistake. As if Bob making an error erases the clear substitution of evidence that was concealed by the FBI for almost 40 years. And which helped frame an innocent man.

The Harris video is not perfect. It couldn't be since Specter and the FBI made sure the trail would be cold and covered up when it came time to show how the bullet was actually switched. But Harris has made a decent start. That Von Pein says not a word about what Hoover and the Commission did in this fiasco, or how it was concealed for decades, but instead goes after a mistake by Harris -- well that tells you all you need to know about Davey Boy.

And also Mr. Williams.

So lets see.

In Harris theory the initials of Bell, turn out to be that of Fritz when turned over!

Hilariously stupid error in my book.

SO Bill,

Perhaps you would like to prove another part of the theory for Robert, since he so obviously cant.

Can you prove there was anything erased and written over?

Can you prove any of his other ridiculous assumptions?

Step on up. Everyone gets a swing at the ball!

Mike

William Kelly · June 2, 2010

James DiEugenio writes:
"Since I have given Von Pein three pastings in a little over a month, one of them specifically over the issue of the provenance of CE 399, I kind of guessed that he would go after the Bob Harris video since John Kelin and myself posted it at ctka.net.

(You can see two of the pastings at http://www.ctka.net/2010/dvp.html)

The reason I posted it there was because Robert included the previous work of Tink Thompson, Gary Aguilar, and John Hunt on this issue i.e. the switching of the Parkland Hospital bullet for CE 399.

In the first part of my two-part essay on Von Pein, I closed with eight questions that DVP should have posed to Vince Bugliosi about this issue. He did not pose any of them. All he did was relay the message from the prosecutor that the judge in that phony London Showtime trial had admitted a picture of CE 399 into evidence, and that he felt he could get the exhibit admitted at an actual trial. Von Pein, predictably, did not challenge either point. Even though Bugliosi said that the chain of custody test means showing that the prosecution's exhibit is what they say it is.

As Bob Tanenbaum said in Pittsburgh in 2003, one way to do this is through eyewitness identification.

Now, a pre-trial evidence admittance hearing is called a 402 proceeding. If the Dallas Police had not helped Ruby kill Oswald, there would have been several of these at Oswald's trial e.g. over the paper package which Wesley Frazier and his sister saw. (Although it is highly unlikely she saw it, and the mother made no mention of it to the FBI.)

But the one on CE 399 would have been most interesting. Even amusing.

If I were defending Oswald, I would have called D. Tomlinson, O P Wright, his wife, Bardwell Odum, and Elmer Lee Todd for starters.

Tomlinson would show two things: there is a question as to whose stretcher CE 399 was found on. TInk Thompson deduced that it probably was not found on Kennedy's or Connally's but a little boy named Ronald Fuller. (See Thompson pgs. 161-164, Marrs p. 364) And Tomlinson always felt that Arlen Specter had manipulated him on the stretcher identification issue. (Marrs pgs 363-64) Secondly, although he was not as familiar with weapons and ammo as Wright, he rejected CE 399 as the bullet found and said it was more like a pointed hunting round. (Marrs, p. 365) Right here, with the first witness, you have the beginning of an origination problem and an identification problem.

OP Wright would deepen this. Since he was very experienced with guns and ammo. When Thompson showed him a photo of CE 399 he immediately rejected it. (Thompson, p. 175) And he showed Thompson what it actually looked like and Thompson has a photo of this in his book. (ibid) No one as familiar with guns as ex law enforcement officer Wright could mistake one for the other.

Arlen Specter knew this. So when you look at the listing of Commission witnesses in Walt Brown's valuable book "The Warren Omission", you will not see OP Wright's name. Does anyone except Dave Von Pein -- and maybe Mike Williams -- think there were 500 witnesses more important than Wright? If you do, you need some help.

So now, you have both people who handled the stretcher bullet saying that the bullet in evidence -- the Magic Bullet which is absolutely essential to the Commission's efficacy ---- is not the bullet they turned over to the authorities. By Vincent Bugliosi's own definition, the government's version of the exhibit is not what the primary witnesses say it was. (See the first part of my DVP essay.)

Wright's wife was supervisor of nursing at Parkland. When Thompson went looking for Wright again after Oliver Stone's film came out, he found out he had passed away, but she was still alive. She told Thompson that there were other bullets found that day! (See Part 1 of my Reclaiming History review.)

This was startling, to everyone except Von Pein. And it may be that this Harris bullet is one of the others planted that day. Her testimony gives you a background to make the evidence planting more viable.

Bardwell Odum would give you the witness you need inside the FBI to show that Hoover knew that Wright would never identify CE 399 as the evidence he turned over.

When Aguilar and Thompson found him in retirement they decided to interview him.

For an FBI report of 6/12/64 says that Odum showed CE 399 to Wright and Tomlinson. The report says that both men said the bullet "appear to be the same one" they found on the stretcher. A funny thing happened when the authors confronted Odum with this report. This was puzzling since another FBI report of 6/2/64 says that neither man can identify the bullet.

So on November 24, 2001, 38 years after Kennedy's murder, the public found out that Hoover lied about this identification. For on that day, Thompson and Aguilar did what the HSCA should have done if Robert Blakey would not have been such a flunky. They showed the FBi report to Odum. He denied he ever showed CE 399 to any Parkland Hospital employee. (The Assassinations, edited by James DiEugenio and Lisa Pease, p. 284) Further, since he knew Wright, he would have recalled such an event.

Odum would show that the FBI knew that CE 399 was not the bullet found at Parkland.

Does it get any better than that?

Actually, it does. As everyone knows both the FBI and the Commission say in writing that FBI agent Elmer Lee Todd put his initials on CE 399. (Thompson, p. 155) Todd is crucial since he picked up the bullet at the White House from the Secret Service and then delivered it to the FBI lab and Robert Frazier that evening. Researcher John Hunt did something that neither Von Pein nor his hero Vincent Bugliosi did not. He went to the National Archives to see if this was true. Guess what, to no one's surprise except maybe Von Pein's, it is not. Hunt photographed the entire circumference of CE 399 and Todd's initials are not there. (See my Reclaiming History series, Part 7, Section 3.) So you would now have Todd on the stand trying to explain why the FBI lied about his initials and why they are not there if he did handle the bullet.

But further, Todd would have something else to explain. Frazier wrote down the time he received the stretcher bullet as 7:30. This one would tie Todd in knots. For he wrote down the time he got the bullet from the Secret Service as 8:50. If that does not constitute a break in the chain of custody then I don't know what does. The Magic Bullet is more magical than anyone ever dreamed.

So on both the chain of custody and the identification question, what prosecutor would want to go through a 402 hearing on CE 399? Maybe Von Pein, but who else? This is why this was all avoided in the phony trial that Bugliosi took part in. But if I were defending Oswald I would not ask for the 402 proceeding. At a 402, the jury is out of the room. I would want them to see and her all of this. Especially the parts about Hoover lying about a bullet he knows is the wrong one. Judges and juries don' t like to hear this kind of thing. Because it says the prosecution cannot be trusted. And it casts aspersions on the entire phalanx of evidence presented.

I would want this all in the open because after you destroyed Brennan, showed how the police coerced Frazier, showed how Givens changed history, and have Sebastian LaTona show how a print in Dallas disappeared on a plane to Washington, CE 399 would be the icing on the cake.

After that debacle, I would move to throw out the prosecution case on the grounds that it was the result of misconduct. Which of course, we know that Wade and Fritz did a lot of. But not as much as Hoover. I would then sue both the DPD and FBI and make Oswald -- and myself -- rich men.

Von Pein and Bugliosi ignore all this. And they try and discredit it all by saying Harris made a mistake. As if Bob making an error erases the clear substitution of evidence that was concealed by the FBI for almost 40 years. And which helped frame an innocent man.

The Harris video is not perfect. It couldn't be since Specter and the FBI made sure the trail would be cold and covered up when it came time to show how the bullet was actually switched. But Harris has made a decent start. That Von Pein says not a word about what Hoover and the Commission did in this fiasco, or how it was concealed for decades, but instead goes after a mistake by Harris -- well that tells you all you need to know about Davey Boy.

And also Mr. Williams.

So lets see.

In Harris theory the initials of Bell, turn out to be that of Fritz when turned over!

Hilariously stupid error in my book.

SO Bill,

Perhaps you would like to prove another part of the theory for Robert, since he so obviously cant.

Can you prove there was anything erased and written over?

Can you prove any of his other ridiculous assumptions?

Step on up. Everyone gets a swing at the ball!

Mike

Hi Mike,

That was all Jimmy D speaking, not me. I just posted it for him. But he seems to make sense. Although we don't have to think in terms of the fake trail they had in London or a hypothetical trial of Oswald, we can still take this to court while going after the real killers.

Sorry, I can't follow this chain or hardly any of the chain of custody of any of the evidence. All the chains seem to break at the first few rungs and I don't think its because of the incompentency of the Dallas cops. I think they did it on purpose.

Now looking at this just briefly, you mean to tell me that there even is/was an envelop that contained a bullet and two to four fragments taken from Connally, and all the people who handled this envelop signed their initials to it just like they do on CSI Miami?

But nobody knows who the nurse was who started the chain?

I get the part where the cop delivers it to Fritz's office, but he doesn't know who he gave it to there? And then we have Fritz's signature initials on it, upside down.

And Von Pain quotes a Warren Commission doctor who actually had the fragments in hand who, when asked if they weighed more than what was missing from CE399 actually responds with the size, and says they weighted as much as a postage stamp?

How much does a postage stamp weight, and how much is missing from CE399?

BK

Edited June 2, 2010 by William Kelly

William Kelly · June 2, 2010

James DiEugenio writes:
"Since I have given Von Pein three pastings in a little over a month, one of them specifically over the issue of the provenance of CE 399, I kind of guessed that he would go after the Bob Harris video since John Kelin and myself posted it at ctka.net.

(You can see two of the pastings at http://www.ctka.net/2010/dvp.html)

The reason I posted it there was because Robert included the previous work of Tink Thompson, Gary Aguilar, and John Hunt on this issue i.e. the switching of the Parkland Hospital bullet for CE 399.

In the first part of my two-part essay on Von Pein, I closed with eight questions that DVP should have posed to Vince Bugliosi about this issue. He did not pose any of them. All he did was relay the message from the prosecutor that the judge in that phony London Showtime trial had admitted a picture of CE 399 into evidence, and that he felt he could get the exhibit admitted at an actual trial. Von Pein, predictably, did not challenge either point. Even though Bugliosi said that the chain of custody test means showing that the prosecution's exhibit is what they say it is.

As Bob Tanenbaum said in Pittsburgh in 2003, one way to do this is through eyewitness identification.

Now, a pre-trial evidence admittance hearing is called a 402 proceeding. If the Dallas Police had not helped Ruby kill Oswald, there would have been several of these at Oswald's trial e.g. over the paper package which Wesley Frazier and his sister saw. (Although it is highly unlikely she saw it, and the mother made no mention of it to the FBI.)

But the one on CE 399 would have been most interesting. Even amusing.

If I were defending Oswald, I would have called D. Tomlinson, O P Wright, his wife, Bardwell Odum, and Elmer Lee Todd for starters.

Tomlinson would show two things: there is a question as to whose stretcher CE 399 was found on. TInk Thompson deduced that it probably was not found on Kennedy's or Connally's but a little boy named Ronald Fuller. (See Thompson pgs. 161-164, Marrs p. 364) And Tomlinson always felt that Arlen Specter had manipulated him on the stretcher identification issue. (Marrs pgs 363-64) Secondly, although he was not as familiar with weapons and ammo as Wright, he rejected CE 399 as the bullet found and said it was more like a pointed hunting round. (Marrs, p. 365) Right here, with the first witness, you have the beginning of an origination problem and an identification problem.

OP Wright would deepen this. Since he was very experienced with guns and ammo. When Thompson showed him a photo of CE 399 he immediately rejected it. (Thompson, p. 175) And he showed Thompson what it actually looked like and Thompson has a photo of this in his book. (ibid) No one as familiar with guns as ex law enforcement officer Wright could mistake one for the other.

Arlen Specter knew this. So when you look at the listing of Commission witnesses in Walt Brown's valuable book "The Warren Omission", you will not see OP Wright's name. Does anyone except Dave Von Pein -- and maybe Mike Williams -- think there were 500 witnesses more important than Wright? If you do, you need some help.

So now, you have both people who handled the stretcher bullet saying that the bullet in evidence -- the Magic Bullet which is absolutely essential to the Commission's efficacy ---- is not the bullet they turned over to the authorities. By Vincent Bugliosi's own definition, the government's version of the exhibit is not what the primary witnesses say it was. (See the first part of my DVP essay.)

Wright's wife was supervisor of nursing at Parkland. When Thompson went looking for Wright again after Oliver Stone's film came out, he found out he had passed away, but she was still alive. She told Thompson that there were other bullets found that day! (See Part 1 of my Reclaiming History review.)

This was startling, to everyone except Von Pein. And it may be that this Harris bullet is one of the others planted that day. Her testimony gives you a background to make the evidence planting more viable.

Bardwell Odum would give you the witness you need inside the FBI to show that Hoover knew that Wright would never identify CE 399 as the evidence he turned over.

When Aguilar and Thompson found him in retirement they decided to interview him.

For an FBI report of 6/12/64 says that Odum showed CE 399 to Wright and Tomlinson. The report says that both men said the bullet "appears to be the same one" they found on the stretcher.

So on November 24, 2001, 38 years after Kennedy's murder, the public found out that Hoover lied about this identification. For on that day, Thompson and Aguilar did what the HSCA should have done if Robert Blakey would not have been such a flunky. They showed the FBi report to Odum. He denied he ever showed CE 399 to any Parkland Hospital employee. (The Assassinations, edited by James DiEugenio and Lisa Pease, p. 284) Further, since he knew Wright, he would have recalled such an event.

Odum would show that the FBI knew that CE 399 was not the bullet found at Parkland.

Does it get any better than that?

Actually, it does. As everyone knows both the FBI and the Commission say in writing that FBI agent Elmer Lee Todd put his initials on CE 399. (Thompson, p. 155) Todd is crucial since he picked up the bullet at the White House from the Secret Service and then delivered it to the FBI lab and Robert Frazier that evening. Researcher John Hunt did something that neither Von Pein nor his hero Vincent Bugliosi did not. He went to the National Archives to see if this was true. Guess what, to no one's surprise except maybe Von Pein's, it is not. Hunt photographed the entire circumference of CE 399 and Todd's initials are not there. (See my Reclaiming History series, Part 7, Section 3.) So you would now have Todd on the stand trying to explain why the FBI lied about his initials and why they are not there if he did handle the bullet.

But further, Todd would have something else to explain. Frazier wrote down the time he received the stretcher bullet as 7:30. This one would tie Todd in knots. For he wrote down the time he got the bullet from the Secret Service as 8:50. If that does not constitute a break in the chain of custody then I don't know what does. The Magic Bullet is more magical than anyone ever dreamed.

So on both the chain of custody and the identification question, what prosecutor would want to go through a 402 hearing on CE 399? Maybe Von Pein, but who else? This is why this was all avoided in the phony trial that Bugliosi took part in. But if I were defending Oswald I would not ask for the 402 proceeding. At a 402, the jury is out of the room. I would want them to see and her all of this. Especially the parts about Hoover lying about a bullet he knows is the wrong one. Judges and juries don' t like to hear this kind of thing. Because it says the prosecution cannot be trusted. And it casts aspersions on the entire phalanx of evidence presented.

I would want this all in the open because after you destroyed Brennan, showed how the police coerced Frazier, showed how Givens changed history, and have Sebastian LaTona show how a print in Dallas disappeared on a plane to Washington, CE 399 would be the icing on the cake.

After that debacle, I would move to throw out the prosecution case on the grounds that it was the result of misconduct. Which of course, we know that Wade and Fritz did a lot of. But not as much as Hoover. I would then sue both the DPD and FBI and make Oswald -- and myself -- rich men.

Von Pein and Williams ignore all this. And they try and discredit it all by saying Harris made a mistake. As if Bob making an error erases the clear substitution of evidence that was concealed by the FBI for almost 40 years. And which helped frame an innocent man.

The Harris video is not perfect. It couldn't be since Specter and the FBI made sure the trail would be cold and covered up when it came time to show how the bullet was actually switched. But Harris has made a decent start. That Von Pein says not a word about what Hoover and the Commission did in this fiasco, or how it was concealed for decades, but instead goes after a mistake by Harris -- well that tells you all you need to know about Davey Boy.

And also Mr. Williams.

Mike Williams · June 3, 2010

James DiEugenio writes:
"Since I have given Von Pein three pastings in a little over a month, one of them specifically over the issue of the provenance of CE 399, I kind of guessed that he would go after the Bob Harris video since John Kelin and myself posted it at ctka.net.

(You can see two of the pastings at http://www.ctka.net/2010/dvp.html)

The reason I posted it there was because Robert included the previous work of Tink Thompson, Gary Aguilar, and John Hunt on this issue i.e. the switching of the Parkland Hospital bullet for CE 399.

In the first part of my two-part essay on Von Pein, I closed with eight questions that DVP should have posed to Vince Bugliosi about this issue. He did not pose any of them. All he did was relay the message from the prosecutor that the judge in that phony London Showtime trial had admitted a picture of CE 399 into evidence, and that he felt he could get the exhibit admitted at an actual trial. Von Pein, predictably, did not challenge either point. Even though Bugliosi said that the chain of custody test means showing that the prosecution's exhibit is what they say it is.

As Bob Tanenbaum said in Pittsburgh in 2003, one way to do this is through eyewitness identification.

Now, a pre-trial evidence admittance hearing is called a 402 proceeding. If the Dallas Police had not helped Ruby kill Oswald, there would have been several of these at Oswald's trial e.g. over the paper package which Wesley Frazier and his sister saw. (Although it is highly unlikely she saw it, and the mother made no mention of it to the FBI.)

But the one on CE 399 would have been most interesting. Even amusing.

If I were defending Oswald, I would have called D. Tomlinson, O P Wright, his wife, Bardwell Odum, and Elmer Lee Todd for starters.

Tomlinson would show two things: there is a question as to whose stretcher CE 399 was found on. TInk Thompson deduced that it probably was not found on Kennedy's or Connally's but a little boy named Ronald Fuller. (See Thompson pgs. 161-164, Marrs p. 364) And Tomlinson always felt that Arlen Specter had manipulated him on the stretcher identification issue. (Marrs pgs 363-64) Secondly, although he was not as familiar with weapons and ammo as Wright, he rejected CE 399 as the bullet found and said it was more like a pointed hunting round. (Marrs, p. 365) Right here, with the first witness, you have the beginning of an origination problem and an identification problem.

OP Wright would deepen this. Since he was very experienced with guns and ammo. When Thompson showed him a photo of CE 399 he immediately rejected it. (Thompson, p. 175) And he showed Thompson what it actually looked like and Thompson has a photo of this in his book. (ibid) No one as familiar with guns as ex law enforcement officer Wright could mistake one for the other.

Arlen Specter knew this. So when you look at the listing of Commission witnesses in Walt Brown's valuable book "The Warren Omission", you will not see OP Wright's name. Does anyone except Dave Von Pein -- and maybe Mike Williams -- think there were 500 witnesses more important than Wright? If you do, you need some help.

So now, you have both people who handled the stretcher bullet saying that the bullet in evidence -- the Magic Bullet which is absolutely essential to the Commission's efficacy ---- is not the bullet they turned over to the authorities. By Vincent Bugliosi's own definition, the government's version of the exhibit is not what the primary witnesses say it was. (See the first part of my DVP essay.)

Wright's wife was supervisor of nursing at Parkland. When Thompson went looking for Wright again after Oliver Stone's film came out, he found out he had passed away, but she was still alive. She told Thompson that there were other bullets found that day! (See Part 1 of my Reclaiming History review.)

This was startling, to everyone except Von Pein. And it may be that this Harris bullet is one of the others planted that day. Her testimony gives you a background to make the evidence planting more viable.

Bardwell Odum would give you the witness you need inside the FBI to show that Hoover knew that Wright would never identify CE 399 as the evidence he turned over.

When Aguilar and Thompson found him in retirement they decided to interview him.

For an FBI report of 6/12/64 says that Odum showed CE 399 to Wright and Tomlinson. The report says that both men said the bullet "appear to be the same one" they found on the stretcher. A funny thing happened when the authors confronted Odum with this report. This was puzzling since another FBI report of 6/2/64 says that neither man can identify the bullet.

So on November 24, 2001, 38 years after Kennedy's murder, the public found out that Hoover lied about this identification. For on that day, Thompson and Aguilar did what the HSCA should have done if Robert Blakey would not have been such a flunky. They showed the FBi report to Odum. He denied he ever showed CE 399 to any Parkland Hospital employee. (The Assassinations, edited by James DiEugenio and Lisa Pease, p. 284) Further, since he knew Wright, he would have recalled such an event.

Odum would show that the FBI knew that CE 399 was not the bullet found at Parkland.

Does it get any better than that?

Actually, it does. As everyone knows both the FBI and the Commission say in writing that FBI agent Elmer Lee Todd put his initials on CE 399. (Thompson, p. 155) Todd is crucial since he picked up the bullet at the White House from the Secret Service and then delivered it to the FBI lab and Robert Frazier that evening. Researcher John Hunt did something that neither Von Pein nor his hero Vincent Bugliosi did not. He went to the National Archives to see if this was true. Guess what, to no one's surprise except maybe Von Pein's, it is not. Hunt photographed the entire circumference of CE 399 and Todd's initials are not there. (See my Reclaiming History series, Part 7, Section 3.) So you would now have Todd on the stand trying to explain why the FBI lied about his initials and why they are not there if he did handle the bullet.

But further, Todd would have something else to explain. Frazier wrote down the time he received the stretcher bullet as 7:30. This one would tie Todd in knots. For he wrote down the time he got the bullet from the Secret Service as 8:50. If that does not constitute a break in the chain of custody then I don't know what does. The Magic Bullet is more magical than anyone ever dreamed.

So on both the chain of custody and the identification question, what prosecutor would want to go through a 402 hearing on CE 399? Maybe Von Pein, but who else? This is why this was all avoided in the phony trial that Bugliosi took part in. But if I were defending Oswald I would not ask for the 402 proceeding. At a 402, the jury is out of the room. I would want them to see and her all of this. Especially the parts about Hoover lying about a bullet he knows is the wrong one. Judges and juries don' t like to hear this kind of thing. Because it says the prosecution cannot be trusted. And it casts aspersions on the entire phalanx of evidence presented.

I would want this all in the open because after you destroyed Brennan, showed how the police coerced Frazier, showed how Givens changed history, and have Sebastian LaTona show how a print in Dallas disappeared on a plane to Washington, CE 399 would be the icing on the cake.

After that debacle, I would move to throw out the prosecution case on the grounds that it was the result of misconduct. Which of course, we know that Wade and Fritz did a lot of. But not as much as Hoover. I would then sue both the DPD and FBI and make Oswald -- and myself -- rich men.

Von Pein and Bugliosi ignore all this. And they try and discredit it all by saying Harris made a mistake. As if Bob making an error erases the clear substitution of evidence that was concealed by the FBI for almost 40 years. And which helped frame an innocent man.

The Harris video is not perfect. It couldn't be since Specter and the FBI made sure the trail would be cold and covered up when it came time to show how the bullet was actually switched. But Harris has made a decent start. That Von Pein says not a word about what Hoover and the Commission did in this fiasco, or how it was concealed for decades, but instead goes after a mistake by Harris -- well that tells you all you need to know about Davey Boy.

And also Mr. Williams.

So lets see.

In Harris theory the initials of Bell, turn out to be that of Fritz when turned over!

Hilariously stupid error in my book.

SO Bill,

Perhaps you would like to prove another part of the theory for Robert, since he so obviously cant.

Can you prove there was anything erased and written over?

Can you prove any of his other ridiculous assumptions?

Step on up. Everyone gets a swing at the ball!

Mike

Hi Mike,

That was all Jimmy D speaking, not me. I just posted it for him. But he seems to make sense. Although we don't have to think in terms of the fake trail they had in London or a hypothetical trial of Oswald, we can still take this to court while going after the real killers.

Sorry, I can't follow this chain or hardly any of the chain of custody of any of the evidence. All the chains seem to break at the first few rungs and I don't think its because of the incompentency of the Dallas cops. I think they did it on purpose.

Now looking at this just briefly, you mean to tell me that there even is/was an envelop that contained a bullet and two to four fragments taken from Connally, and all the people who handled this envelop signed their initials to it just like they do on CSI Miami?

But nobody knows who the nurse was who started the chain?

I get the part where the cop delivers it to Fritz's office, but he doesn't know who he gave it to there? And then we have Fritz's signature initials on it, upside down.

And Von Pain quotes a Warren Commission doctor who actually had the fragments in hand who, when asked if they weighed more than what was missing from CE399 actually responds with the size, and says they weighted as much as a postage stamp?

How much does a postage stamp weight, and how much is missing from CE399?

BK

The average stamp weights about a gram, or 15 grains. We know that 399 has much less loss. However a grain is 1/7000th of a pound. I hardly think we can determine anything conclusively by what anyone guessed, considering the minute weight involved.

I think the most 399 could weigh is 162. Loss from firing .4-.6 grains. So that leaves us with 161.5 potentially (using the average of .4 to.6)

Found it weighed 158.6 so it would have a loss of no more than 2.9 grains.

As you know Bill I am hardly one to support the SBT, at least not yet. So I really have no dog in this race.

I still can not help but bust a gut when I see the Robert "upside down" Harris make such gross assumptions, just to have it blow up in his face.

Since I have no communication with Jim DiEugenio Please pass on to him, that if he wished to include me in a conversation, to please have to stones to step up to the plate here himself and speak directly to me. I have little respect for a man who feels the need to go through another to make a simple post. If he cant stand his own ground, then he should refrain.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Mike Williams

William Kelly · June 3, 2010

James DiEugenio writes:
"Since I have given Von Pein three pastings in a little over a month, one of them specifically over the issue of the provenance of CE 399, I kind of guessed that he would go after the Bob Harris video since John Kelin and myself posted it at ctka.net.

(You can see two of the pastings at http://www.ctka.net/2010/dvp.html)

The reason I posted it there was because Robert included the previous work of Tink Thompson, Gary Aguilar, and John Hunt on this issue i.e. the switching of the Parkland Hospital bullet for CE 399.

In the first part of my two-part essay on Von Pein, I closed with eight questions that DVP should have posed to Vince Bugliosi about this issue. He did not pose any of them. All he did was relay the message from the prosecutor that the judge in that phony London Showtime trial had admitted a picture of CE 399 into evidence, and that he felt he could get the exhibit admitted at an actual trial. Von Pein, predictably, did not challenge either point. Even though Bugliosi said that the chain of custody test means showing that the prosecution's exhibit is what they say it is.

As Bob Tanenbaum said in Pittsburgh in 2003, one way to do this is through eyewitness identification.

Now, a pre-trial evidence admittance hearing is called a 402 proceeding. If the Dallas Police had not helped Ruby kill Oswald, there would have been several of these at Oswald's trial e.g. over the paper package which Wesley Frazier and his sister saw. (Although it is highly unlikely she saw it, and the mother made no mention of it to the FBI.)

But the one on CE 399 would have been most interesting. Even amusing.

If I were defending Oswald, I would have called D. Tomlinson, O P Wright, his wife, Bardwell Odum, and Elmer Lee Todd for starters.

Tomlinson would show two things: there is a question as to whose stretcher CE 399 was found on. TInk Thompson deduced that it probably was not found on Kennedy's or Connally's but a little boy named Ronald Fuller. (See Thompson pgs. 161-164, Marrs p. 364) And Tomlinson always felt that Arlen Specter had manipulated him on the stretcher identification issue. (Marrs pgs 363-64) Secondly, although he was not as familiar with weapons and ammo as Wright, he rejected CE 399 as the bullet found and said it was more like a pointed hunting round. (Marrs, p. 365) Right here, with the first witness, you have the beginning of an origination problem and an identification problem.

OP Wright would deepen this. Since he was very experienced with guns and ammo. When Thompson showed him a photo of CE 399 he immediately rejected it. (Thompson, p. 175) And he showed Thompson what it actually looked like and Thompson has a photo of this in his book. (ibid) No one as familiar with guns as ex law enforcement officer Wright could mistake one for the other.

Arlen Specter knew this. So when you look at the listing of Commission witnesses in Walt Brown's valuable book "The Warren Omission", you will not see OP Wright's name. Does anyone except Dave Von Pein -- and maybe Mike Williams -- think there were 500 witnesses more important than Wright? If you do, you need some help.

So now, you have both people who handled the stretcher bullet saying that the bullet in evidence -- the Magic Bullet which is absolutely essential to the Commission's efficacy ---- is not the bullet they turned over to the authorities. By Vincent Bugliosi's own definition, the government's version of the exhibit is not what the primary witnesses say it was. (See the first part of my DVP essay.)

Wright's wife was supervisor of nursing at Parkland. When Thompson went looking for Wright again after Oliver Stone's film came out, he found out he had passed away, but she was still alive. She told Thompson that there were other bullets found that day! (See Part 1 of my Reclaiming History review.)

This was startling, to everyone except Von Pein. And it may be that this Harris bullet is one of the others planted that day. Her testimony gives you a background to make the evidence planting more viable.

Bardwell Odum would give you the witness you need inside the FBI to show that Hoover knew that Wright would never identify CE 399 as the evidence he turned over.

When Aguilar and Thompson found him in retirement they decided to interview him.

For an FBI report of 6/12/64 says that Odum showed CE 399 to Wright and Tomlinson. The report says that both men said the bullet "appear to be the same one" they found on the stretcher. A funny thing happened when the authors confronted Odum with this report. This was puzzling since another FBI report of 6/2/64 says that neither man can identify the bullet.

So on November 24, 2001, 38 years after Kennedy's murder, the public found out that Hoover lied about this identification. For on that day, Thompson and Aguilar did what the HSCA should have done if Robert Blakey would not have been such a flunky. They showed the FBi report to Odum. He denied he ever showed CE 399 to any Parkland Hospital employee. (The Assassinations, edited by James DiEugenio and Lisa Pease, p. 284) Further, since he knew Wright, he would have recalled such an event.

Odum would show that the FBI knew that CE 399 was not the bullet found at Parkland.

Does it get any better than that?

Actually, it does. As everyone knows both the FBI and the Commission say in writing that FBI agent Elmer Lee Todd put his initials on CE 399. (Thompson, p. 155) Todd is crucial since he picked up the bullet at the White House from the Secret Service and then delivered it to the FBI lab and Robert Frazier that evening. Researcher John Hunt did something that neither Von Pein nor his hero Vincent Bugliosi did not. He went to the National Archives to see if this was true. Guess what, to no one's surprise except maybe Von Pein's, it is not. Hunt photographed the entire circumference of CE 399 and Todd's initials are not there. (See my Reclaiming History series, Part 7, Section 3.) So you would now have Todd on the stand trying to explain why the FBI lied about his initials and why they are not there if he did handle the bullet.

But further, Todd would have something else to explain. Frazier wrote down the time he received the stretcher bullet as 7:30. This one would tie Todd in knots. For he wrote down the time he got the bullet from the Secret Service as 8:50. If that does not constitute a break in the chain of custody then I don't know what does. The Magic Bullet is more magical than anyone ever dreamed.

So on both the chain of custody and the identification question, what prosecutor would want to go through a 402 hearing on CE 399? Maybe Von Pein, but who else? This is why this was all avoided in the phony trial that Bugliosi took part in. But if I were defending Oswald I would not ask for the 402 proceeding. At a 402, the jury is out of the room. I would want them to see and her all of this. Especially the parts about Hoover lying about a bullet he knows is the wrong one. Judges and juries don' t like to hear this kind of thing. Because it says the prosecution cannot be trusted. And it casts aspersions on the entire phalanx of evidence presented.

I would want this all in the open because after you destroyed Brennan, showed how the police coerced Frazier, showed how Givens changed history, and have Sebastian LaTona show how a print in Dallas disappeared on a plane to Washington, CE 399 would be the icing on the cake.

After that debacle, I would move to throw out the prosecution case on the grounds that it was the result of misconduct. Which of course, we know that Wade and Fritz did a lot of. But not as much as Hoover. I would then sue both the DPD and FBI and make Oswald -- and myself -- rich men.

Von Pein and Bugliosi ignore all this. And they try and discredit it all by saying Harris made a mistake. As if Bob making an error erases the clear substitution of evidence that was concealed by the FBI for almost 40 years. And which helped frame an innocent man.

The Harris video is not perfect. It couldn't be since Specter and the FBI made sure the trail would be cold and covered up when it came time to show how the bullet was actually switched. But Harris has made a decent start. That Von Pein says not a word about what Hoover and the Commission did in this fiasco, or how it was concealed for decades, but instead goes after a mistake by Harris -- well that tells you all you need to know about Davey Boy.

And also Mr. Williams.

So lets see.

In Harris theory the initials of Bell, turn out to be that of Fritz when turned over!

Hilariously stupid error in my book.

SO Bill,

Perhaps you would like to prove another part of the theory for Robert, since he so obviously cant.

Can you prove there was anything erased and written over?

Can you prove any of his other ridiculous assumptions?

Step on up. Everyone gets a swing at the ball!

Mike

Hi Mike,

That was all Jimmy D speaking, not me. I just posted it for him. But he seems to make sense. Although we don't have to think in terms of the fake trail they had in London or a hypothetical trial of Oswald, we can still take this to court while going after the real killers.

Sorry, I can't follow this chain or hardly any of the chain of custody of any of the evidence. All the chains seem to break at the first few rungs and I don't think its because of the incompentency of the Dallas cops. I think they did it on purpose.

Now looking at this just briefly, you mean to tell me that there even is/was an envelop that contained a bullet and two to four fragments taken from Connally, and all the people who handled this envelop signed their initials to it just like they do on CSI Miami?

But nobody knows who the nurse was who started the chain?

I get the part where the cop delivers it to Fritz's office, but he doesn't know who he gave it to there? And then we have Fritz's signature initials on it, upside down.

And Von Pain quotes a Warren Commission doctor who actually had the fragments in hand who, when asked if they weighed more than what was missing from CE399 actually responds with the size, and says they weighted as much as a postage stamp?

How much does a postage stamp weight, and how much is missing from CE399?

BK

The average stamp weights about a gram, or 15 grains. We know that 399 has much less loss. However a grain is 1/7000th of a pound. I hardly think we can determine anything conclusively by what anyone guessed, considering the minute weight involved.

I think the most 399 could weigh is 162. Loss from firing .4-.6 grains. So that leaves us with 161.5 potentially (using the average of .4 to.6)

Found it weighed 158.6 so it would have a loss of no more than 2.9 grains.

As you know Bill I am hardly one to support the SBT, at least not yet. So I really have no dog in this race.

I still can not help but bust a gut when I see the Robert "upside down" Harris make such gross assumptions, just to have it blow up in his face.

Since I have no communication with Jim DiEugenio Please pass on to him, that if he wished to include me in a conversation, to please have to stones to step up to the plate here himself and speak directly to me. I have little respect for a man who feels the need to go through another to make a simple post. If he cant stand his own ground, then he should refrain.

What do you mean what the average stamp weighs? Can't they weight bullet fragments?

Is that how you determine ballistics, compare the weight of bullet fragments to average postage stamps and then weight the stamp to see how much the bullet fragment weighs?

What kind of investigation is that?

And if you have such little respect for a man who feels the need to go through another to make a simple post, who can't stand on his own ground, then why did you bring a donkey like Barron Von Pain to a dog race?

BK

Edited June 3, 2010 by William Kelly

Don Jeffries · June 3, 2010

This is why the critical community cannot come together; if we cannot, at this point, understand that CE399 is not a legitimate piece of "evidence," then what can we agree on?

A ten year old child can understand that bullet could not have done what they say it did. As Cyril Wecht is fond of saying, "Just show me one bullet, in the history of the world, who did what this bullet did."

That bullet hit no one, and you don't have to study the evidence at all to know it.

Mike Williams · June 3, 2010

James DiEugenio writes:
"Since I have given Von Pein three pastings in a little over a month, one of them specifically over the issue of the provenance of CE 399, I kind of guessed that he would go after the Bob Harris video since John Kelin and myself posted it at ctka.net.

(You can see two of the pastings at http://www.ctka.net/2010/dvp.html)

The reason I posted it there was because Robert included the previous work of Tink Thompson, Gary Aguilar, and John Hunt on this issue i.e. the switching of the Parkland Hospital bullet for CE 399.

In the first part of my two-part essay on Von Pein, I closed with eight questions that DVP should have posed to Vince Bugliosi about this issue. He did not pose any of them. All he did was relay the message from the prosecutor that the judge in that phony London Showtime trial had admitted a picture of CE 399 into evidence, and that he felt he could get the exhibit admitted at an actual trial. Von Pein, predictably, did not challenge either point. Even though Bugliosi said that the chain of custody test means showing that the prosecution's exhibit is what they say it is.

As Bob Tanenbaum said in Pittsburgh in 2003, one way to do this is through eyewitness identification.

Now, a pre-trial evidence admittance hearing is called a 402 proceeding. If the Dallas Police had not helped Ruby kill Oswald, there would have been several of these at Oswald's trial e.g. over the paper package which Wesley Frazier and his sister saw. (Although it is highly unlikely she saw it, and the mother made no mention of it to the FBI.)

But the one on CE 399 would have been most interesting. Even amusing.

If I were defending Oswald, I would have called D. Tomlinson, O P Wright, his wife, Bardwell Odum, and Elmer Lee Todd for starters.

Tomlinson would show two things: there is a question as to whose stretcher CE 399 was found on. TInk Thompson deduced that it probably was not found on Kennedy's or Connally's but a little boy named Ronald Fuller. (See Thompson pgs. 161-164, Marrs p. 364) And Tomlinson always felt that Arlen Specter had manipulated him on the stretcher identification issue. (Marrs pgs 363-64) Secondly, although he was not as familiar with weapons and ammo as Wright, he rejected CE 399 as the bullet found and said it was more like a pointed hunting round. (Marrs, p. 365) Right here, with the first witness, you have the beginning of an origination problem and an identification problem.

OP Wright would deepen this. Since he was very experienced with guns and ammo. When Thompson showed him a photo of CE 399 he immediately rejected it. (Thompson, p. 175) And he showed Thompson what it actually looked like and Thompson has a photo of this in his book. (ibid) No one as familiar with guns as ex law enforcement officer Wright could mistake one for the other.

Arlen Specter knew this. So when you look at the listing of Commission witnesses in Walt Brown's valuable book "The Warren Omission", you will not see OP Wright's name. Does anyone except Dave Von Pein -- and maybe Mike Williams -- think there were 500 witnesses more important than Wright? If you do, you need some help.

So now, you have both people who handled the stretcher bullet saying that the bullet in evidence -- the Magic Bullet which is absolutely essential to the Commission's efficacy ---- is not the bullet they turned over to the authorities. By Vincent Bugliosi's own definition, the government's version of the exhibit is not what the primary witnesses say it was. (See the first part of my DVP essay.)

Wright's wife was supervisor of nursing at Parkland. When Thompson went looking for Wright again after Oliver Stone's film came out, he found out he had passed away, but she was still alive. She told Thompson that there were other bullets found that day! (See Part 1 of my Reclaiming History review.)

This was startling, to everyone except Von Pein. And it may be that this Harris bullet is one of the others planted that day. Her testimony gives you a background to make the evidence planting more viable.

Bardwell Odum would give you the witness you need inside the FBI to show that Hoover knew that Wright would never identify CE 399 as the evidence he turned over.

When Aguilar and Thompson found him in retirement they decided to interview him.

For an FBI report of 6/12/64 says that Odum showed CE 399 to Wright and Tomlinson. The report says that both men said the bullet "appear to be the same one" they found on the stretcher. A funny thing happened when the authors confronted Odum with this report. This was puzzling since another FBI report of 6/2/64 says that neither man can identify the bullet.

So on November 24, 2001, 38 years after Kennedy's murder, the public found out that Hoover lied about this identification. For on that day, Thompson and Aguilar did what the HSCA should have done if Robert Blakey would not have been such a flunky. They showed the FBi report to Odum. He denied he ever showed CE 399 to any Parkland Hospital employee. (The Assassinations, edited by James DiEugenio and Lisa Pease, p. 284) Further, since he knew Wright, he would have recalled such an event.

Odum would show that the FBI knew that CE 399 was not the bullet found at Parkland.

Does it get any better than that?

Actually, it does. As everyone knows both the FBI and the Commission say in writing that FBI agent Elmer Lee Todd put his initials on CE 399. (Thompson, p. 155) Todd is crucial since he picked up the bullet at the White House from the Secret Service and then delivered it to the FBI lab and Robert Frazier that evening. Researcher John Hunt did something that neither Von Pein nor his hero Vincent Bugliosi did not. He went to the National Archives to see if this was true. Guess what, to no one's surprise except maybe Von Pein's, it is not. Hunt photographed the entire circumference of CE 399 and Todd's initials are not there. (See my Reclaiming History series, Part 7, Section 3.) So you would now have Todd on the stand trying to explain why the FBI lied about his initials and why they are not there if he did handle the bullet.

But further, Todd would have something else to explain. Frazier wrote down the time he received the stretcher bullet as 7:30. This one would tie Todd in knots. For he wrote down the time he got the bullet from the Secret Service as 8:50. If that does not constitute a break in the chain of custody then I don't know what does. The Magic Bullet is more magical than anyone ever dreamed.

So on both the chain of custody and the identification question, what prosecutor would want to go through a 402 hearing on CE 399? Maybe Von Pein, but who else? This is why this was all avoided in the phony trial that Bugliosi took part in. But if I were defending Oswald I would not ask for the 402 proceeding. At a 402, the jury is out of the room. I would want them to see and her all of this. Especially the parts about Hoover lying about a bullet he knows is the wrong one. Judges and juries don' t like to hear this kind of thing. Because it says the prosecution cannot be trusted. And it casts aspersions on the entire phalanx of evidence presented.

I would want this all in the open because after you destroyed Brennan, showed how the police coerced Frazier, showed how Givens changed history, and have Sebastian LaTona show how a print in Dallas disappeared on a plane to Washington, CE 399 would be the icing on the cake.

After that debacle, I would move to throw out the prosecution case on the grounds that it was the result of misconduct. Which of course, we know that Wade and Fritz did a lot of. But not as much as Hoover. I would then sue both the DPD and FBI and make Oswald -- and myself -- rich men.

Von Pein and Bugliosi ignore all this. And they try and discredit it all by saying Harris made a mistake. As if Bob making an error erases the clear substitution of evidence that was concealed by the FBI for almost 40 years. And which helped frame an innocent man.

The Harris video is not perfect. It couldn't be since Specter and the FBI made sure the trail would be cold and covered up when it came time to show how the bullet was actually switched. But Harris has made a decent start. That Von Pein says not a word about what Hoover and the Commission did in this fiasco, or how it was concealed for decades, but instead goes after a mistake by Harris -- well that tells you all you need to know about Davey Boy.

And also Mr. Williams.

So lets see.

In Harris theory the initials of Bell, turn out to be that of Fritz when turned over!

Hilariously stupid error in my book.

SO Bill,

Perhaps you would like to prove another part of the theory for Robert, since he so obviously cant.

Can you prove there was anything erased and written over?

Can you prove any of his other ridiculous assumptions?

Step on up. Everyone gets a swing at the ball!

Mike

Hi Mike,

That was all Jimmy D speaking, not me. I just posted it for him. But he seems to make sense. Although we don't have to think in terms of the fake trail they had in London or a hypothetical trial of Oswald, we can still take this to court while going after the real killers.

Sorry, I can't follow this chain or hardly any of the chain of custody of any of the evidence. All the chains seem to break at the first few rungs and I don't think its because of the incompentency of the Dallas cops. I think they did it on purpose.

Now looking at this just briefly, you mean to tell me that there even is/was an envelop that contained a bullet and two to four fragments taken from Connally, and all the people who handled this envelop signed their initials to it just like they do on CSI Miami?

But nobody knows who the nurse was who started the chain?

I get the part where the cop delivers it to Fritz's office, but he doesn't know who he gave it to there? And then we have Fritz's signature initials on it, upside down.

And Von Pain quotes a Warren Commission doctor who actually had the fragments in hand who, when asked if they weighed more than what was missing from CE399 actually responds with the size, and says they weighted as much as a postage stamp?

How much does a postage stamp weight, and how much is missing from CE399?

BK

The average stamp weights about a gram, or 15 grains. We know that 399 has much less loss. However a grain is 1/7000th of a pound. I hardly think we can determine anything conclusively by what anyone guessed, considering the minute weight involved.

I think the most 399 could weigh is 162. Loss from firing .4-.6 grains. So that leaves us with 161.5 potentially (using the average of .4 to.6)

Found it weighed 158.6 so it would have a loss of no more than 2.9 grains.

As you know Bill I am hardly one to support the SBT, at least not yet. So I really have no dog in this race.

I still can not help but bust a gut when I see the Robert "upside down" Harris make such gross assumptions, just to have it blow up in his face.

Since I have no communication with Jim DiEugenio Please pass on to him, that if he wished to include me in a conversation, to please have to stones to step up to the plate here himself and speak directly to me. I have little respect for a man who feels the need to go through another to make a simple post. If he cant stand his own ground, then he should refrain.

What do you mean what the average stamp weighs? Can't they weight bullet fragments?

Is that how you determine ballistics, compare the weight of bullet fragments to average postage stamps and then weight the stamp to see how much the bullet fragment weighs?

What kind of investigation is that?

And if you have such little respect for a man who feels the need to go through another to make a simple post, who can't stand on his own ground, then why did you bring a donkey like Barron Von Pain to a dog race?

BK

Bill,

I was not the one who compared the fragments to the stamp, a doctor did. I in fact proposed that this was not an accurate method, in that the weights are very minute.

This should clearly tell you that I would not investigate that way at all.

I only addressed it at all because you asked the question:

How much does a postage stamp weight, and how much is missing from CE399?

Now as for DVP.

It was not I who tried to claim that DVP agreed to the erasing on the envelope, Harris did. I simply corrected his error, yet again, in showing that DVP was not in fact in agreement. What is the issue here?

I was not speaking for DVP, nor posting for him. I was simply relating, yet again, another piece of fabrication by Bob Harris.

I would hope that if someone misrepresented me, you would do the same. I know that if someone horribly misrepresented you, of totally fabricated a statement, and tried to pass it off as your words, I would certainly stand up for you even if I did not agree with you.

William Kelly · June 4, 2010

Counterpunch from Jimmy D

Mr. Williams:

1. Your argument about the weight of CE 399 is a cheap diversion. I just proved that CE 399 was not found at Parkland. Understand?

2. I personally have no respect for anyone who channels Von Pein for any reason on any issue. And using DVP to point out an error by Harris, while ignoring everything else he mentions in his video--which I then detailed--is typical cheap DVP trolling. Which everyone has had more than enough of. Except maybe you.

But alas, you are the guy who says there is no evidence for a front shot also. Hmm. How about the altered testimony of Sam Holland, the avulsed hole in the back of JFK's skull, the witnesses Doug Horne names in Vol. 2 who saw a hole in JFK's temple, Jackie Kennedy jumping on the back of the car to retrieve her husband's skull bones, Hargis' testimony (pre Gary mack MK Ultra) about getting hit with blood and tissue so hard it felt like a bullet, and--oh yes-- the Zapruder film's violent rearward action of JFK's body?

In light of that "non-evidence" you are a natural soul-brother of Davey Boy. Time wasters like you are one reason I lurk.

Jim D

David Josephs · June 4, 2010

:blink: :clapping

and the crowd goes wild.....

William Kelly · June 4, 2010

Bill,....What is the issue here?

Mike, you are the issue for using the forum to attack Robert Harris and to announce your attack in the head of the thread. Who is Tom Foolery? He's in the headline next to Robert Harris and CE399? And then you point out that he got one thing wrong in his film and you call it a fabrication. It is only a fabrication if he knew it was wrong ahead of time and I don't think he did, and since he's now been corrected, we all know it is Fritz's

initials upside down.

Evidence is not about Bob Harris or David Von Pein, its about the envelope, who had possession of the envelop, and what's in it. Now if we can weigh a postage stamp, why can't we weigh a few bullet fragments - all four of them, or both of them, and what happened to the whole bullet? That was different than CE399 wasn't it? And what did Nurse Bell tell the HSCA and ARRB about it?

And someone is misrepresenting you - David Von Pein - he's the one misrepresenting the truth in this case and he should not even be mentioned in any serious research, especially in regards to any ballistics that you want to be considered at all. The bottom line is the evidence, and not those who misrepresent it - like Von Pein. I don't know Robert Harris, but anybody who can sturr the displeasure of DVP is a friend of mine.

Bill Kelly

Edited June 4, 2010 by William Kelly

William Kelly · June 5, 2010

Jimmy D. :

OK, Duncan evidence Identification for Beginners:

1. Tomlinson and Wright turned over a lead colored, sharp pointed hunting round to the Secret Service. Wright was a former law enforcement officer. So he was quite familiar with guns and ammo.

2. For those who need a visual comparison to see how dramatic the difference is, see page 175 of SIx Seconds in Dallas. It does not get any more plain than that. For that reason, there is no evidence that Specter interviewed Wright. (See "The Warren Omission", by Walt Brown.)

3.This bullet then allegedly made its way through the Secret Service, specifically Johnsen and Rowley. Neither man's initials are on the bullet. And neither man could positivley ID the bullet.

4. Smelling trouble, Hoover now decides to do two things. Things that he had done throughout his career: he will now lie and make things up. He first falsifies a memo about FBI agent Bardwell Odum taking the bullet to Wright and Tomlinson and them saying it was similar to the one they turned over. He also says that Todd's initials are on the bullet, which in light of the fact that the two SS guys' are not, has to be there to save the day. If not, there is nothing to establish a chain from the time the bullet was turned over in Dallas, to the time it arrived in Washington at FBI HQ. Do you follow Duncan? Pretty simple concept huh?For if the initials are completely absent, and the originating witnesses say it ain't the right one, the prosecution is in trouble. In any court, except maybe John McAdams'.

5. Many years later, actually decades, these are both exposed as lies. In 2001, Odum tells Thompson and Aguilar that he never showed the bullet to anyone at Parkland. Years after that, John Hunt photographs the legendary CE 399 in rotation--Elmer Lee Todd's initials are not there. So Hoover was backstopping a story he knew was false. Which may be why Todd never testified before the WC. MIght be a possibility, huh Duncan?

6. This may be another reason Duncan. When Todd got the bullet from the Secret Service, he made out a receipt which he signed. He marked the time he got it as 8:50 PM. But when Frazier checked in the stretcher bullet at FBI HQ, his time was marked as 7:30 PM. That is a problem since they are in the same time zone.

To summarize: CE 399 would blow up in any attorney's face because it would fail both the eyewitness identification test and chain of custody test as outlined by Bob Tanenbaum in Pittsburgh. In fact, Bugliosi told Von Pein the test is to show that the exhibit is what the prosecution says it is. Which in this case it is not.

But further, and what is so incriminating for a frame up, Hoover seems to have known this was the case. Which is why he supplied the phony documentation for the WC. To fool the public into thinking it was OK. When it was not. But it took Thompson 38 years to interview Odum. And Thompson, and Bugliosi--separated by 40 years--both write that Todd's initials are on the bullet. So, unfortunately, Hoover's deception worked for much too long a time. Which is what happens when a defendant has no advocate protecting him.

If can't make it any more clear than that.

Perhaps someone can upload the two photos from Thompson's book on page 175.

JIm D

Signing off.

Robert Harris and the CE399 Tom Foolery!

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