Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Richard Hocking]

Interesting encounter. However, I don't agree with the headline:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2511848/How-Lee-Harvey-Oswald-helped-reporter-telephone-chance-encounter-just-seconds-shot-JFK.html

The article also has a good photo of a young Pierce Allman. Thanks for the link, Mark.

[Richard Hocking]

This has been an excellent thread, and I think it has some very (potentially) explosive information. I was curious if anyone here has a high resolution scan of Jack Weaver's polaroid photo. It is quite over-exposed, but that is a good thing for capturing our "prayer man" in the shadows. The only versions I've seen online are highly pixelated. Photo can be seen below, but please post if you have a HD scan or copy. Thanks.

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/1518/tuul.jpg

My guess is thats about the best quality you're going to get from a polaroid, but I figured I'd pose the question. Keep up the great work guys!

Also, while I'm not sure what I think actually occured, I tend to agree that the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter could still happen if Prayer Man is in-fact Oswald.

Hi Michael,

I agree Weaver took a most interesting shot(s) showing both the 6th floor SE Window, and the TSBD entrance, moments before the Presidential limo made the turn on to Elm St.

The Entrance area does show a man in the approximate position of Prayer Man, but as you pointed out, higher resolution might be very valuable. Earlier in this thread, several members discussed some movements on the steps as the Limo approached the turn onto Elm that may have coincided with Prayer Man arriving.

I am not sure who has the original Weaver photo. Gary Mack or Robin Unger might have more information.

Richard and Michael,

I've always wondered if the 1955-1957 Oldsmobile that Howard Brennan claimed to have noticed parked strangely near the TSBD is visible in this photograph.

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/1518/tuul.jpg

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16323

--Tommy

PS Is that another "hard hat man" at the far right of the photo, partially obscured by the motorcycle antenna? It seems to me he appears there in other photos. (Too lazy to look right now...)

Tommy,

Given the fuzzy resolution, it's difficult to be definitive ... however, I can make out a couple things.

There is an older make vehicle in the position Brennan described. It is parallel parked on Houston next to the East side of the TSBD facing South. There is also another vehicle that appears to be close behind the Oldsmobile(?). It is perpendicular to the Olds with the front facing West.

If it is back far enough it could be pulling into the lot behind the TSBD. If it is parked, it would be blocking Southbound traffic on Houston.

I like Michael's idea of finding the original and getting a high resolution scan.

[John Dolva]

Been paying a bit more attention to this topic lately. Some bits seem to me to be not altogether reconcilable with oswalds last words re Mae. Going back a few posts re Holmes trustworthiness. The lancer link doesn't deal with various items that have come to be known since when that article was written (eg we now have a photo). When I was digging for anything Holmes I found bits that were very strange a lot like in 4 faces. There has been expressed doubt about his origins. Whether whoever was shoveling '''' my way or not, no idea. Holmes says in an interview that he had an excellent memory and went on to describe how he could in the night remember everything that happened, that he did, from when he woke up to 'now'. Which foot touched the floor first etc etc. When it comes to remembering who the others with him in his office looking at the assassination were he 'cannot remember'. ie either way he is a xxxx. Selectively.

Theres more.

Out.

edit typo

Edited December 6, 2013 by John Dolva

[Robert Prudhomme]

Anyone seen Sean Murphy lately?

[David Josephs]

Fritz's interrogation notes suggest a different means of OSWALD getting to his room...

"He told me he left by bus and rode to a stop near home and walked on to his house"

Followed by a "QUOTE" from Oswald.... changing the previous answer to now include a cab ride...

This is one of the few "QUOTES" attributed to OSWALD... This screams to me that Fritz simply wrote what needed to be written...

If OSWALD really took a bus home, the BLEDSOE bus and WHALEY cab stories are fabricated (and to me proven by the description of the ARREST clothing rather than what he was wearing to work...

The final line on this page reinforces that OSWALD changed his clothes when he got home.... one of the few constants in his "as told to" comments.

[David Josephs]

Kelley goes a step further to say OSWALD "says" he took the bus, via a transfer, all the way to the Texas Theater..

He then claims, after FRITZ mentions the cab, that Oswald changed his story....

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=29105&relPageId=1

[Gene Kelly]

David: I agree that one needs to get beyond any doubt about two Oswalds, and start thinking in terms of the movement of both Harvey and Lee. Only then do the pieces of the puzzle start to come together. Lee is setting up Harvey as a patsy, its that simple. I have not read the H&L book, so there's deeper insights that I need to learn ... but my first question (of many) would be, whatever happened to Lee?

Richard: I'm inclined to agree with Bjorn that there were no real assasins in the TSBD that day. Surely some plotters intentionally being seen at the window, and perhaps even someone firing a gun from another spot in the building - all as diversionary tactics - but not the real shooters. The idea that a trained sniper (and his handlers, spotters, break-down man, etc.) would risk being in the same building where all of the evidence is being planted and overt attention is being drawn to doesn't fit with the elaborate nature of this plot.

Sean: This is excellent attention to detail, and your insights about Redlich (and his lingering questions) are thought provoking. Its refreshing to focus back in on the basic facts of exactly where "Oswald" was (in the Building) and who actually saw him. Presuming that both Harvey and Lee are somewhere in that building, is it possible that Lee is running around (inside) being seen while Harvey is on the front steps (i.e. prayer man)? This begs the question of what exactly Harvey thought he was actually doing while watching the motorcade.

Gene

[Richard Hocking]

Gene Kelly wrote:

Richard: I'm inclined to agree with Bjorn that there were no real assasins in the TSBD that day. Surely some plotters intentionally being seen at the window, and perhaps even someone firing a gun from another spot in the building - all as diversionary tactics - but not the real shooters. The idea that a trained sniper (and his handlers, spotters, break-down man, etc.) would risk being in the same building where all of the evidence is being planted and overt attention is being drawn to doesn't fit with the elaborate nature of this plot.

Gene,

If any shots were fired from the upper floors of the TSBD, my argument would be a shooter in a West facing window (facing the triple underpass).

There are several hints this may have been the case:

- Virtually none of the hundreds of people in front of the TSBD looked up as one would expect if rifle fire was directly above them.

- a shot(s) from a West window would echo off the triple underpass marking that area as a possible source. A West window shooter combined with a shooter behind the fence are compatible with the crowd reaction of running up the knoll after the shots.

- The trajectory of Connally's wounds better fit a shot from that location then other locations that have been suggested.

I agree with you and others who feel the Rifle men and associates in the upper floor windows were showing themselves as a diversion.

[David Josephs]

Gene Kelly wrote:

Richard: I'm inclined to agree with Bjorn that there were no real assasins in the TSBD that day. Surely some plotters intentionally being seen at the window, and perhaps even someone firing a gun from another spot in the building - all as diversionary tactics - but not the real shooters. The idea that a trained sniper (and his handlers, spotters, break-down man, etc.) would risk being in the same building where all of the evidence is being planted and overt attention is being drawn to doesn't fit with the elaborate nature of this plot.

Gene,

If any shots were fired from the upper floors of the TSBD, my argument would be a shooter in a West facing window (facing the triple underpass).

There are several hints this may have been the case:

- Virtually none of the hundreds of people in front of the TSBD looked up as one would expect if rifle fire was directly above them.

- a shot(s) from a West window would echo off the triple underpass marking that area as a possible source. A West window shooter combined with a shooter behind the fence are compatible with the crowd reaction of running up the knoll after the shots.

- The trajectory of Connally's wounds better fit a shot from that location then other locations that have been suggested.

I agree with you and others who feel the Rifle men and associates in the upper floor windows were showing themselves as a diversion.

Here Richard... it does appear as if the 6th floor WEST facing window is open prior to our three guys opening the west window on the 5th... or so they say (the 5th floor windows are open at 12:40)

and we do have the man in Dillard in the far WEST 6th floor window...

Re the echo.... as I had posted at some point, the openess of the overpass area is not a good echo creator as opposed to the building up at ELM/HOUSTON... a shot from down by the overpass WOULD echo off buildings and could appear as a shot from up there... I don't think it works the same way in reverse... Holland was very sure between the first shots from UP by the corner of Elm/Houston and the shot that was fired from the GK fence....

The idea that UNKNOWN and ASSISTED assassins shooting from and planting evidence in the TSBD and just walking out is not something to be considered becasue "it makes no sense" or is not understood by those of us who were not in on the plot... seems to me dismissing one of the most obvious and easiest ways to leave the TSBD.

Mr. BALL - Mr. Mooney, what is your occupation?

Mr. MOONEY - I am a deputy sheriff, Dallas County, Tex.

Mr. BALL - Where did you go?

Mr. MOONEY - Mr. Webster and Mr. Vickery were there with me at the time that we received these orders from another deputy.

Mr. BALL - They are deputy sheriffs?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir; they were plainclothes officers like myself, work in the same department,

Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

As mentioned on another thread/post... does it not make sense if MOONEY's ASSOCIATES - plainclothes officers - are coming down from where Mooney was rushing to, he would talk to these deputy sheriffs? WHO are they, WHEN/HOW did they get into the building so fast...

I am not saying these people coming down were necessarily sinister... but the idea of just leaving thru the front or back door with SS/FBI credentials is really not that far-fetched.

When the FIX is in and you are on the FIXED side... confidence and arrogance go a long way. HIDE IN PLAIN SIGHT...

DJ

[Richard Hocking]

Thanks for that photo, David

It looks like there may also be some windows open on the 4th floor.

When looking at the audio record and echoes, we also have to consider the issue of suppressed weapons.

You wrote:

Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

"As mentioned on another thread/post... does it not make sense if MOONEY's ASSOCIATES - plainclothes officers - are coming down from where Mooney was rushing to, he would talk to these deputy sheriffs? WHO are they, WHEN/HOW did they get into the building so fast..."

Mooney had to know he was one of the very first responders in the building. If the plain clothes men coming down the steps impressed him as Police Detectives, why did he not ask them if they had seen a man with a rifle roaming around on the upper floors?

His testimony of passing these individuals like two silent ships in the night makes no sense.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Richard Hocking

[David Josephs]

Couple of things Richard...

The image is very hard to tell about the 4th floor windows... but it is possible and would indeed be a GREAT place to shoot from and stay hidden and ADD to the echoes...

Supressed weapons of the day were not silenced by any means... yet that could account for the way in which the shots are described as sounding so different.

I only recently learned about the Mooney quote... and yes, it is VERY strange.. Add to this the "MAN" Sawyer runs into getting off the elevator at about 12:34... and the planting of evidence is about the easiest thing in the world to accomplish.

Do you give much credibility to the Alyea story of the original shell positions, and the crimescene dolt Fritz picking them up, only to be throw/placed down later for photos?

That statement is very damaging to any Oswald did it theory, if true.

DJ

Edited January 3, 2014 by David Josephs

[Robert Prudhomme]

I hope Sean Murphy's absence from this forum is due to him doing some heavy duty research into Prayer Man. I truly miss reading his posts.

[Gene Kelly]

Richard:

Your suspicion of a shooter(s) in a West-facing window makes sense, of course, and perhaps I should not dismiss such a strategic position. I'm making the classic mistake of trying to put myself in the plotters' "shoes" and applying my own logic to something that's unfortunately so speculative 50 years later. Whenever I take the entire assassination story up to 1,000 feet, I'm always left with an over-arching conclusion that the people who set this up were expert in such matters, and therefore had contingency plans in place, along with ground-level precautions such as using police (and "sweepers") to control evidence and eyewitnesses. Therefore, the TSBD becomes (for me) a place to draw attention and to incriminate Oswald ... a pure head fake or diversionary measure (like the stalled pickup truck, the ambulance, canyon fire, Tippit's murder). Someone once posted an intelligence strategy akin to magic, where such slight-of-hand and illusionary tactics are applied to an operation like this. That's why I have difficulty in allowing actual shooters to be positioned in the TSBD.

I do still like David's idea that we need to think in terms of two Oswald's in trying to unravel this story. One excellent outfall of this thread is that I no longer take as gospel the lunchroom legend, or the written statements about Baker, Truly, and the coke... as David put it so well, the eyewitness accounts are accurate but none of the "evidence" seems to hold water. And if Prayer Man is indeed Oswald, then this becomes a real game-breaker.

Gene

[Richard Hocking]

Couple of things Richard...

The image is very hard to tell about the 4th floor windows... but it is possible and would indeed be a GREAT place to shoot from and stay hidden and ADD to the echoes...

Supressed weapons of the day were not silenced by any means... yet that could account for the way in which the shots are described as sounding so different.

I only recently learned about the Mooney quote... and yes, it is VERY strange.. Add to this the "MAN" Sawyer runs into getting off the elevator at about 12:34... and the planting of evidence is about the easiest thing in the world to accomplish.

Do you give much credibility to the Alyea story of the original shell positions, and the crimescene dolt Fritz picking them up, only to be throw/placed down later for photos?

That statement is very damaging to any Oswald did it theory, if true.

DJ

David,

Missing photo and film provide additional food for thought regarding the West facing windows of the TSBD.

Mary Ann Moorman took a Polaroid photo showing the TSBD in the background.

That photowas confiscated and never returned.

From her position, the West side of the building was visible.

The Babushka Lady was shooting film not far from Moorman and would also have an unobstructed view of the West side of the TSBD. This film has never surfaced.

So two pieces of photo evidence that share a similar view of the West side are both missing.

In the case of Moorman's photo, the known chain of custody starts with Deputy Sheriff John Wiseman, goes to Chief Deputy Sheriff Allan Sweat, and terminates with SSA William Patterson.

The evidence relating to the Sniper's Lair is a mess. Fritz, Hill, Johnson, Montgomery, Mooney, Studebaker, and Weatherford provide a jumble of testimony of cloudy observations and contradictions concerning the shells, the chicken bones, the boxes, and a large brown paper bag.

I place more stock in Alyea's observations than any of the above. It is likely that most, if not all of the photographic evidence of the Sniper's Lair was taken after various items had been moved or repositioned.

[Larry Hancock]

Alyea's observations are especially interesting in that he is very adamant about the fact that the police not only mishandled evidence but screwed up the official crime scene so badly that the boxes in the "snipers nest" had to be re-staged and the photos taken over again...which of course is not mentioned in any of the police statements or official record. Alyea's felt so strongly about this that he published a series of at least three newsletters addressing issues of the photographs and police mistakes. However the newsletters also addressed his belief that Oswald was the sole shooter and there was no conspiracy and that much conspiracy writing was bogus and self serving. I tried to introduce the contradiction in accepting all the evidence offered to the record at the same time challenging some of the most basic police practices but he wasn't much open to that - we did have a good Mexican lunch during the dialog though...

-- Larry