Helliwell's cat's paw

[Cliff Varnell]

From the Ruth Paine in Nic thread Larry Hancock wrote:

Helliwell and the CIA crowd that was involved first in Burma in one of the Agencies earliest covert warfare projects, then were called in to provide support the the Guatemala program, are covered in considerable detail in Shadow Warfare. In fact one of my goals in Shadow Warfare was to trace the careers of all those folks through the early years of the CIA, tie them into the deniable weapons sourcing - which by the way spiked again with the Artime project in 63/64 and to the rumors that Gary Underhill heard at the time of the Kennedy assassination. It took a lot of work separating out fact from fiction on what they were and were not doing and also developing a picture of their actual "practices" related to covert action. And of course in the end it all connected to the same stories that Gene Wheaton heard from Carl Jenkins...

Larry,

On page 161 of Charles Senseney's Church Comm. he refers to "a colonel in the Air Force and a colonel in the Army" who operated a CIA operation -- "Staff Support Group"-- within US Army Special Operations Division at Fort Detrick, MD.

http://www.aarclibra..._6_Senseney.pdf

Edward Lansdale and Lucien Conein come to mind.

Who else would have fit that profile late '50s?

Edited November 5, 2015 by Cliff Varnell

[Larry Hancock]

Cliff, I suspect that the Army Colonel was either an admin officer or possibly an engineering officer assigned to the Army support group which was attached to the biological warfare work at Fort Detrick. Army personnel provided logistics, engineering and related technical support for the CIA development there, done under Sydney Gottlieb of CIA Technical Services. The Special Operations Division (SOD) actually produced toxins and did work on developing delivery systems for them. They were essentially loaned from the Army's biowarfare activities to do the same things for CIA development projects . As to the Air Force officer, the only reason I can think of that an AF officer would be there would be as a liaison for aerial delivery systems...either spray or dust systems etc. There have always been rumors of animal and plant toxins developed for covert introduction into Cuba... I write about this sort of work at Fort Detrick in NEXUS, if you have it check pages 36-38. The support would have been given to the CIA MKNAOMI project. A memo was located which confirmed that absolutely no written records were kept for that project, everything was verbal and depended on "human continuity". We do have names of CIA headquarters personnel who knew about the CIA projects but I think it would be virtually impossible to track down the military guys providing support via SOD.

Unfortunately I know little more than that - however Hank Alberelli may have some further detail, as far as I can tell he is virtually the only researcher able to access records that relate to that sort of work, due to his participation in the inquiry into the CIA officers LSD related death.

[Chris Newton]

As to the Air Force officer, the only reason I can think of that an AF officer would be there would be as a liaison for aerial delivery systems...either spray or dust systems etc

My unit was actually the "victim" once of a Chemical unit at Ft. Hood that used an aerial system to deliver CS dust. I think that operation instigated at least one bar brawl in downtown Killeen, Tx.

Just a side note

[Cliff Varnell]

Cliff, I suspect that the Army Colonel was either an admin officer or possibly an engineering officer assigned to the Army support group which was attached to the biological warfare work at Fort Detrick.

Larry, these colonels were MKNAOMI.

From the Church Com. testimony of top civilian weapons developer Charles Senseney:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_6_Senseney.pdf

<quote on>

Q: Were you aware that the CIA was working with Fort Detrick?

Mr. Senseney: After a while. Not when I first went with the SO Division, but it became apparent later.

Q: Did the CIA people use a false name to describe themselves?

Mr. Senseney: Staff Support Group.

Q: And that was a false name; was it not?

Mr.Senseney: And it was also--you asked another question earlier this morning, at least someone did, P600

was their funding citation.

Q: P600 was their funding citation? And the Staff Support Group was a false name? And who was it designed to mislead?

Mr. Senseney: I don't know.

Q: Is that a name that sounds like an Army group?

Mr. Senseney: Well, you would have thought so to begin, because the first two that I was aware of were a colonel in

the Air Force and a colonel in the Army. It looked like an Army support group of some sort at the start.

Q: So both the name and the personnel made it look as if it was an Army group. even though, in fact, it was CIA

personnel?

Mr. Senseney: That's right.

<quote off>

Air Force/CIA guy with an Army/CIA guy.

Where do guys fitting this profile show up working in tandem?

Shadow Warfare, pgs 142-3...

Edited November 6, 2015 by Cliff Varnell

[Larry Hancock]

Yes, that was what I tried to say Cliff, they would have been officers assigned to the Fort Detrick bio/chem warfare developments as part of SOD and then tasked with supporting the CIA's MK/NAIOMI project. As you see in Shadow Warfare, military personnel are "detailed" to CIA which means they have to have additional security vetting but fundamentally its just an assignment for them. Ultimately, unless they decide to change careers, like David Morales did, they remain service personnel. Of course they may be repeatedly detailed at different times over the length of their service career to the point that it almost becomes a cover in itself. Given what these two officers were doing in supporting R&D I'm guessing that the CIA project was a fairly temporary assignment for them. Unless they decided to join CIA Tech Services of course. Of course everyone in that project was under horrendous security restrictions so I doubt either of them would talk about it in their old age.

All this is not really that mysterous. There was a bio/chem warfare group at Fort Detrick, SOD was simply an organization that supported that work and the CIA project was "hidden" under military cover, buried under the rest of the work. If somebody got assigned out of SOD to MK/NAIOMI they effectively were working for the CIA its the project was funded by the CIA. I suspect they still retained their regular service connections - whose budget their salaries came out of is a guess but I suspect that remained military as well and only the project expenses - and CIA officers or civilians working for CIA on the project - were funded out of P600 funding.

I'm not surprised to find both Army and Air Force involved because we have a pretty good view into the fact that weapons were being developed both for very personalized covert use but also for use on a larger scale....such as against livestock and crops. That would have almost certainly required some sort of aerial delivery.

[Chris Newton]

Wasn't Dr. Jose Rivera, (of Adele Edison fame), also an Army Colonel? Quite possibly assigned to a CIA program at Ft Detrick?

[Larry Hancock]

Not as far as anyone has documented that I'm aware of Chris. His rank, Major, was gained for service in the Korean war. His medical and military background is on the Spartacus site and is as follows:

Jose Rivera was born in Lima, Peru, in 1911. After studying medicine at the University of San Marcos he moved to the United States. He resumed his studies at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore. He earned his doctoral degree from Georgetown University in 1939.

In 1942 Rivera joined the United States Army and served as first lieutenant in the medical corps. He was stationed at Walter Reed Army Hospital and later assigned to Halloran General Army Hospital in New York. In 1944 he was promoted to captain and went on a series of assignments in Italy and France and at the 198th General Army Hospital in Berlin.

During the Korean War he served in the Medical Field Unit and was promoted to the rank of major. After the war, he was chief of laboratory service and pathology at the U.S. Army Hospital in Tokyo. In 1958, he was assigned to the Reserve Training Center in Washington.

Rivera sat on the National Institute of Health Board of Directors. A fellow director in the early 1960s was Alton Ochsner. In 1963 Rivera was in New Orleans handing out research grants from NIH to the Tulane Medical School.

[Chris Newton]

Hey Larry,

Bill Kelly thought he was a Col. according to this thread:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=609

Maybe that's an error but I thought I had seen the reference somewhere else. I'll try to find it.

[Larry Hancock]

Certainly could be Chris, the promotion sequence outlined at Sparticus seems reasonable but I can also see that a promotion could have occur ed later, perhaps in the reserves.

[Cliff Varnell]

Nexus, pg 36:

<quote on, emphasis in the original>

Confirmation of the MKNAOMI project was revealed in 1977, when Carter administration Defense Secretary Brown
requested an internal review of CIA projects which had involved the Department of Defense. The Department of
Defense's legal counsel conducted the investigation and among other things reported back that MKNAOMI had begun
in the early 1950's and was "intended to stockpile severely incapacitating and lethal materials and to develop gadgetry
for dissemination of these materials."

A June 29, 1975 CIA memorandum has also been located which documents the SOD/CIA relationship and confirms that no
written records were kept; management was by verbal instruction and "human continuity." The memo refers to "swarms
of project requests" and cites examples of suicide pills, chemicals to anesthetize occupants to facilitate building
entries, "L-pills" and aphrodisiacs for operational use. The memo notes "some requests for support approved by the CIA
had apparently involved assassination."

<quote off>

While pills and aerosols were developed under MKNAOMI the focus of the Staff Support Group was singular: dart weapons.

Paralytics and toxins and a variety of delivery systems. It's all they wanted. It's all they got.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_6_Senseney.pdf

Pgs 175-6. Senseney:

"The only thing the CIA asked for was a dog device. That is the only thing that was delivered to them."

"Dog device" was Senseney's pet name for the dart weapon which would dissolve in the body and not show up on x-ray or in the body during autopsy.

What makes this significant is that the night of the JFK autopsy FBI SA James Sibert put a call into the FBI lab to ask about the existence of such weaponry.

From autopsy-attendee FBI SA Francis O'Neill's sworn affidavit for the HSCA:

<quote on>

Some discussion did occur concerning the disintegration of the bullet. A general

feeling existed that a soft-nosed bullet struck JFK. There was discussion concerning

the back wound that the bullet could have been a "plastic" type or an "Ice" [sic]

bullet, one which dissolves after contact.

<quote off>

From autopsy-attendee FBI SA James Sibert's sworn affidavit for the HSCA:

<quote on>

The doctors also discussed a possible deflection of the bullet in the body caused

by striking bone. Consideration was also given to a type of bullet which fragments

completely....Following discussion among the doctors relating to the back injury, I

left the autopsy room to call the FBI Laboratory and spoke with Agent Chuch [sic]

Killion. I asked if he could furnish any information regarding a type of bullet that

would almost completely fragmentize (sic).

<quote off>

Senseney testified that the FBI had been briefed as to the existence of such weapons (bottom of pg 166 above).

The "2 CIA colonels" appear to me to be obvious Persons of Interest in the murder of JFK.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Cliff Varnell

[Larry Hancock]

That's a real leap for me Cliff.....I know you lean that direction but I just have to fall back on the view that if I am CIA and organize an assassination of the President

the last thing I want to do us use my highest level covert weapons, which might or might not be traceable after the fact. But if I did it would certainly'

be an untraceable poison delivered in a manner to produce effects very consistent with his preexisting health problems.

Your choice though, we have a pretty good idea of what Tech Services was developing but automatically assuming it would be used in the

Dallas attack is another story entirely.

As far as I can tell it would not be at all strange to find military officers in SOD working for Army projects and assigned to support the CIA project -

assuming that automatically makes them suspects in an attack in Dallas is something I'll have to leave to you.

[Cliff Varnell]

That's a real leap for me Cliff.....I know you lean that direction but I just have to fall back on the view that if I am CIA and organize an assassination of the President

the last thing I want to do us use my highest level covert weapons, which might or might not be traceable after the fact.

Larry, there is a major difference between declaring someone a "Person of Interest" and declaring someone a treasonous murderer.

A "person of interest" isn't even formally a suspect, just someone who deserves, well...interest.

Since the weaponry was covert and designed not to leave a trace, what fear would the perps have using this technology?

But if I did it would certainly' be an untraceable poison delivered in a manner to produce effects very consistent with his preexisting health problems.

Is it just a coincidence that JFK gets hit in the throat and then appears to seize up paralyzed in a couple of seconds?

And what to make of the damage in his throat -- broken blood vessels, a hairline fracture of the right T1 transverse process, and most importantly an air-pocket overlaying the right T1 and C7 transverse processes.

What sort of weapon leaves an air-pocket and no bullet?

Your choice though, we have a pretty good idea of what Tech Services was developing but automatically assuming it would be used in the

Dallas attack is another story entirely.

I make no assumptions whatsoever.

Why would we automatically assume such weaponry WASN'T used?

As far as I can tell it would not be at all strange to find military officers in SOD working for Army projects and assigned to support the CIA project -

assuming that automatically makes them suspects in an attack in Dallas is something I'll have to leave to you.

A distinction must be drawn between "suspects" and "persons of interest."

Since the FBI man Sibert launched an investigation which would have logically led to Fort Detrick, it isn't out of line to deem employees there "persons of interest."

That's where the FBI was headed.

Senseney didn't describe these guys as military officers assigned to support the CIA.

They were CIA men under military cover using a fake designation.

[Chris Newton]

Hi Cliff,

I had been, for years, not a fan of your "ice" bullet, poison dart or exotic other weapon theories. I have recently become more open to the possibility for the following reasons:

a. If the SBT is wrong, (and I believe it is the biggest lie ever foisted), then we have way to many rounds originating in the rear for one gunman unless he's got an automatic.

b. The nature of the wounds to JFK's back and JBC are so different that they seemingly could not have been created by the same type of ammo.

c. Many witnesses described hearing 3 rounds, some described more, some less. The consensus being three, suggests that for all intents about 1/2 to 1/3 of the rounds fired were heard by the majority. That seems odd.

There are many scenarios that could explain my concerns above but, for the record, I'm much more open to what you suggest than I ever was before.

[Cliff Varnell]

Hi Cliff,

I had been, for years, not a fan of your "ice" bullet, poison dart or exotic other weapon theories. I have recently become more open to the possibility for the following reasons:

a. If the SBT is wrong, (and I believe it is the biggest lie ever foisted), then we have way to many rounds originating in the rear for one gunman unless he's got an automatic.

b. The nature of the wounds to JFK's back and JBC are so different that they seemingly could not have been created by the same type of ammo.

c. Many witnesses described hearing 3 rounds, some described more, some less. The consensus being three, suggests that for all intents about 1/2 to 1/3 of the rounds fired were heard by the majority. That seems odd.

There are many scenarios that could explain my concerns above but, for the record, I'm much more open to what you suggest than I ever was before.

Thank you, Chris. Your kind words mean a lot to me.

I want to emphasize that it isn't a matter of some theory of mine -- it was the autopsists who suspected JFK was hit with a high tech weapon.

It's right there in the historical record.

The FBI guy properly investigated this scenario when he called the FBI Lab.

Best lead in the entire case, seems to me.

[Chris Newton]

I want to emphasize that it isn't a matter of some theory of mine -- it was the autopsists who suspected JFK was hit with a high tech weapon.

Thanks for that clarification Cliff. I remember reading about that in the FBI report. It hadn't dawned on me that one of the "good" Doctors, Humes, Boswell or Finck, had come up with that. I assume the existence of such things was not widely disseminated. I wonder where they came by the knowledge to form that question?