E. Grant Stockdale

[John Simkin]

I am currently researching the relationship between John F. Kennedy, Edward Grant Stockdale and George Smathers. I would be very interested if members have any information on Stockdale and Smathers.

Stockdale and Smathers (member of the Senate for Florida) formed a company, Automatic Vending, that was involved in providing vending machines to government institutions.

Stockdale was head of the State Democratic Party committee to elect John F. Kennedy in the 1960 presidential campaign.

In March, 1961, President Kennedy appointed Stockdale as Ambassador to Ireland. Later that year Automatic Vending was sued for improper actions in getting a contract at Aerodex but the suit was eventually dismissed.

Stockdale resigned as ambassador in July, 1962. He returned to Miami where he became consultant to another vending machine company which had contracts at Cape Canavaral.

According to William Torbitt (Nonmenclature of an Assassination Cabal ), Stockdale was involved with Bobby Baker, Fred Black and mobsters Ed Levenson and Benny Sigelbaum in a company called Serve-U-Corporation. Established in 1962, the company provided vending machines for companies working on federally granted programs. The machines were manufactured by a company secretly owned by Sam Giancana and other mobsters based in Chicago.

In 1963 rumours began circulating that Bobby Baker and Fred Black were involved in corrupt activities. Eventually Baker and Black were imprisoned for their actions. Some researchers have claimed that there was a link between this scandal and the assassination of JFK (Evelyn Lincoln later claimed that in November, 1963, Kennedy decided that because of the emerging Bobby Baker scandal he was going to drop Lyndon B. Johnson as his running mate in the 1964 election. Kennedy told Lincoln that he was going to replace Johnson with George Smathers).

Edward Grant Stockdale died on 2nd December, 1963 when he fell (or was pushed) from his office on the thirteenth story of the Dupont Building in Miami. Stockdale did not leave a suicide note but It was claimed that he had become depressed as a result of the death of John F. Kennedy.

George Smathers resigned from the Senate in 1968. According to the Biographical Directory of Congress website George Smathers is still alive. Has anyone interviewed him about these issues? Does anyone know anything about the possible business relationship between Smathers, Stockdale, Baker and Black?

[Adele Edisen]

Grant Stockdale (Edward Grant Stockdale) was born in Greenville, Mississippi, in 1915. He died in Miami, Florida, on December 2, 1963, ten days after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

He had come to Miami in 1935 to attend the University of Miami where he played football, worked to pay for his tuition, and earned a BBS (business administration) degree. He began his career as a salesman for a venetian blind company and quickly rose to become sales manager. Later he was an hotel executive and then had various business interests, eventually owning his own real estate business, Grant Stockdale and Associates, an investment and real estate sales company.

In 1940 he married Alice Boyd Magruder, and they were the proud parents of five children.

Stockdale's civic and business and activities included the Presidency of the Miami Junior Chamber of Commerce in 1943; head of the Community Chest Drive; Executive Secretary of the Miami Beach Hotel Association; and President of the University of Miami Alumni Association.

In 1943 he enlisted in the U.S. Marine Corps and served in the Pacific War Zone in combat in the Marshall Islands, Ie Shima, Okinawa, and he spent three months with the occupation forces in Japan. He was discharged as a First Lieutenant and remained with the rank of Major in the U.S. Marine Corps Reserves.

His first foray into politics was to manage the political campaign of George Smathers for a seat in the U.S. House of Representatives. He became Smathers' Administrative Assistant in Washington, D.C., and in the course of that, met and befriended John Kennedy in 1949 who was then a young Congressman from Massachusetts. The offices of Kennedy and Smathers were almost next to each other.

Upon return to Miami, Stockdale ran for a seat on the Dade County Commission, but lost the race to an incumbent running for re-election. Shortly thereafter, Stockdale ran for the Florida State House of Representatives in an election to replace a deceased legislator; he served from 1948 to 1949. While in the Florida State Legislature, Stockdale introduced several bills: a bill to permit women to volunteer as trial jurors (women were excluded from jury duty in Florida in those days); a bill to outlaw bookie wire services; and bills to offer stiffer punishments for child molesters and other crimes. He lost his re-election bid by a very small margin, 828 votes (20,143 to 19,315).

He ran again for a seat on the Dade County Commission and won, serving as a County Commissioner from 1952 to 1956.

As the Democratic Party began gearing up for its National Convention, and with recommendations from George Smathers who eventually became head of the committee in the South to elect John Kennedy, Grant Stockdale was named director of the Florida State committee to elect John Kennedy. After Kennedy won the nomination, Stockdale actively campaigned for him in West Virginia, Oregon, and New York. He served on the Democratic Party's National Finance Committee during this time.

His personal friendship with John Kennedy involved visits by the young Kennedy to Stockdale's home in Florida and visits with John Kennedy over the years. In 1961 President Kennedy appointed Grant Stockdale Ambassador to Ireland, and the entire Stockdale family moved to Dublin. Stockdale served 18 months, stating that he wished to resume his previously successful, but now neglected, real estate business.

Events surrounding the death of Grant Stockdale

At 10:00 a.m. on Monday, December 2, 1963, Grant Stockdale came to his office on the 13th floor of the Alfred I. Dupont Building, 169 Flagler Street in Miami. His secretary, LaVerne Weingartner, who usually opened the office was not there, but at a dentist's office and would not arrive until 10:30. Stockdale went into a law office across the hall from his and asked Mrs. Mary Ruth Hauser how he could get a key to unlock his office door. She offered to call the building manager to send someone to open it.

Mrs. Hauser stated, "He followed me into my office and stood there while I called down for a key. He stood there very calmly. He didn't seem at all agitated... Somehow the subject of the President's death came up... He told me he was in his office when his wife called to tell him the President had been shot. He said he just got down on his knees and prayed."

Stockdale and Mrs. Hauser were still talking when someone came to unlock his door. She started to followed him across the hall, but just then her office phone started ringing and she returned to answer it. Mrs. Hauser said, "It couldn't have been five minutes later that there was this terrible thud...I just wonder if I had gone right behind him...I don't know, I guess it wouldn't have made any difference. The whole world has just gone mad."

Stockdale's body lay on the roof of the five-story Florida National Bank and Trust Company below the Stockdale office window. Dr. Sheffel H. Wright who had offices in the Dupont Building pronouned him dead at 10:30 a.m.; the police placed the time of death at 10:17 a.m.

All of the people who saw and spoke to Stockdale on his way to work said he had been in good spirits, waving and saying hello. He stopped for a shoe shine, spoke to the elevator operator, and exchanged words with the parking garage attendant.

However, it was his friend George Smathers who claimed that it had been an accumulation of grief and worry that had driven Stockdale to suicide.

One newspaper report states that Mrs. Stockdale had urged her husband to seek help for his depression after the assassination, but she called the doctor on Monday to inform him that he was so much better.

According to an article written by Miami Herald Reporter John B. McDermott, titled "Stockdale Into Irrational Mood," Stockdale had tried to reach him on Sunday, December 1. "He wanted to tell me something - to talk things over."

McDermott's article presents the following information:

On Saturday, November 23, 1963, Grant Stockdale flew to Washington, D.C., after a call from Robert Kennedy. He returned that night, thinking he would be unable to get a ticket to the church for the funeral services.

On Monday, November 25, Stockdale learned that a ticket had been reserved for him by the White House, but there was not enough time to get proper plane connections on time.

On Tuesday, November 26, Stockdale flew up to Washington and talked with Robert and Edward Kennedy, and then flew back that night. As a result of this last trip, Teddy (Edward) Kennedy called Mrs. Stockdale, "expressing anxiety over the ex-ambassador's mental state."

Stockdale had mentioned to several people during the ten days before his death that "the world was closing in."

On Sunday, December 1, after attending services at St. Stephens Episcopal Church with his family, Stockdale had paused to speak with Attorney William Frates.

"He started talking," Frates recalled Monday. "It didn't make much sense. He said something about 'those guys' trying to get him. Then about the assassination. He said he wanted to talk to me - that he had already talked to Billy Gaither (another attorney)."

Grant Stockdale was 48 years old when he died. Funeral Services were held on Wednesday, December 4, 1963, at St. Stephens Episcopal Church with 200 people attending. The blue-and-gold Ambassadors' flag was draped over the coffin. Pall-bearers were Senator George Smathers, Attorney Williiam C. Gaither, former State Senator R.B. Gautier, Jr., former U. of Miami football star and team leader Eddie Dunn, Stockdale's business associate Eugene Hancock, and Realtor Walter Etling. Burial was arranged with the Van Orsdel Coral Gables Mortuary at Woodlawn Park Cemetery.

(Information taken from newspaper articles in the Miami Herald and Miami News.)

___________________________________________________________________

I believe Grant Stockdale was murdered. I also believe that he was the "best friend of the President who would jump out of window because of his grief (after it's over)" that I was told about in April, 1963, by Jose A. Rivera, NIH Science Administrator, former U.S. Army Colonel, and Member of the U.S. Army Reserves. The question is - Why Stockdale?

Adele Edisen

Message from Ann Stockdale received June 16, 2004:

Yes I guess that is factual, except I thought that when He came home from Ireland , that he no longer had any $ interest in Vending Machines. One thing I do know is that Kennedy asked Daddy to go to the Air Force Base South of Miami to see if ( against Kennedy's orders) bombs were being loaded on the planes. Bombs WERE being loaded on the planes !! I believe one of the reasons Daddy was killed was because He knew that the Government was being run by the Military Complex.

The Military Complex didn't want the American People to realize ( and still don't ) That They were calling the shots. Daddy knew he was being followed... & he told Mom that THEY were going to get Him... and THEY did. There was an attempt on my life also several days after Daddy's funeral . I realize now that this was a scare tactic to silence my Mother...i.e. if you speak about Anything, Your kids are DEAD. It Worked !!

Adele, You may add this if you wish. XXOO, Ann

Edited June 16, 2004 by aedisen

[Larry Hancock]

Thank you for posting these details... could you give us some sources and references for them as I find them fascinating and would like to read further in the source material.

-- Larry

[Larry Hancock]

Sorry, I see that you did cite the newspapers as sources but were there any others than the articles you referenced? I was also curious as to whether or not the articles made it clear why Stockdale might have contacted that particular reporter - John B. McDermott - did they have a history with each other, something of the nature that might cause Stockdale to consider the reporter as a confidant?

-- thanks again, Larry

[John Simkin]

Thank you for this information Adele. I have been unable to find very much about Stockdale via the internet or books on the assassination. In fact, except for Larry Hancock, most researchers have failed to grasp the significance of Stockdale and George Smathers.

The material you provide appears to have been taken from a combination of different newspaper articles. Is it possible to link the passages with the different newspapers and the date they were published. I am particularly interested in the details of the article by John B. McDermott.

I was of course interested in the comments made by William Frates. He also says that Stockdale also contacted Billy Gaither about these issues. Has Gaither ever given information on this?

My own interpretation of these events is that Stockdale (via George Smathers) knew about the plot to kill Kennedy. Whereas Smathers was by this time in league with Lyndon Johnson (I will post later explaining why I think this) Stockdale remained loyal to JFK.

I suspect Stockdale told Robert and Edward Kennedy what he knew about the assassination on 26th November. Stockdale was obviously shocked when he discovered that the Kennedy brothers showed little interest in the story. In fact, Edward goes as far to undermine his credibility by questioning his mental state.

Why should the Kennedy brothers do this? Why, did they not want the case investigated? My own view is that Robert Kennedy was himself implicated in the killing of JFK.

After gaining power JFK was told details of the CIA’s plot to kill Castro. Instead of bringing it to an end he attempted to bring it under his own control. The plan to assassinate Fidel Castro now became known as Operation Freedom and was to be run by his brother Robert Kennedy. Of course he had to rely on people like William Harvey to organize the killing of Castro but he insisted on being kept fully informed about what was taking place.

I believe someone involved in Operation Freedom decided to change their target from Fidel Castro to John Kennedy. By 1963 anti-Castro figures knew they would not be able to overthrow the socialist government of Cuba by assassinating Castro. The best way forward was by having a president who was willing to launch an invasion of Cuba. Kennedy would not do that (in fact he was at that time involved in negotiating a peace deal with Castro).

This is where the clever bit comes in. The CIA tell Robert Kennedy that they have selected an agent to kill Castro. His name is Lee Harvey Oswald. He is told that efforts were being made to get Oswald into Cuba to carry out the killing. John Kennedy is then assassinated. Lee Harvey Oswald is quickly announced as being the killer (the original plan was for Oswald to be killed but this fails and Jack Ruby is brought in to do the job).

Now consider the reaction of Robert Kennedy to the news that the man he had arranged to kill Castro had killed his brother. Any full investigation into Oswald and the Kennedy assassination would reveal details of Operation Freedom. What the CIA had cleverly done was to implicate Robert Kennedy in the killing of his brother. He could now be guaranteed to join in the cover-up.

On 26th November, Stockdale tells Robert and Edward that he knows what has happened. It is only a matter of time before Stockdale goes public. But is it in the interests of the Kennedy family to let the world know what has happened? This involves the world discovering that John and Robert Kennedy were involved in a plot to kill Fidel Castro. Might the reaction have been: “he got what he deserves”. The image of JFK as a honourable political figure would have been destroyed by this information. Robert Kennedy’s political career would also have been over. It would not have needed LBJ to tell the Kennedy brothers why it was important that they joined the cover-up. However, for it to work, Stockdale would have to be stopped from telling the truth.

[Larry Hancock]

John, I have to say I do find the Stockdale incident very interesting but there is a lot of speculation going on without some important data.

First, nothing in Adele's background mentions his earlier association with Hancock in Automatic Vending (even though Hancock was apparently a pall bearer at Stockdale's funeral). There is no mention of his other vending machine venture that got him into legal trouble concident with his appointment as ambassodor and we have no details about that or how it ever came out? It is a bit unusual to see someone give up an appointment as Ambassador - that usually costs plenty of money in campaign contributions, what was going on with Stockdale's businesses and finances that brought that about?

As a close friend of JFK and a former business associate of Hancock it is very possible that Stockdale felt very badly about the Baker Serve U Corp scandal which was doing so much damage to the Administration - Stockdale could easily have ended up even being called as a witness on that. One of the big open issues that never got resolved was Hancock's real role in Serve U Corp beyond being apparently no more than a front for the company and not really involved in its business affairs. There is just a lot that we don't know about things that may have been affecting Stockdale in late 1963, aside from the murder of a close friend. One of the questions that crossing my mind is why no reporter did a better job with the Stockdale death, especially given his known association with some of the people involved in the exploserve Serve-U corp scandal? Another is why he was apparently talking to lawyers right before his suicide?

I'm certainly not suggesting Stockdale might not have had some suspicions (although I really have a problem with him knowing anything specific about a threat to JFK and keeping it to himself for months). In any event, if he shared anything with the Kennedy family I find it very consistent that they gave him no response at all. There is a clear pattern of Kennedy family participation quashing any real investigation of conspiracy and in acutally removing evidence - that has been documented elsewhere. There is a scenario that does explain that and I have addressed it in my book, it involves the secret war on Cuba, the Castro assassination attempts and national security. Whether or not we will ever know more about that than we do now is a good question, there are some good researchers pursuing that angle though.

On Stockdale, it's surely a lead worth pursuing but somebody needs to go back to the basics and investigate Frates, Gaither, Stockdale's personal and business situation etc. I just don't think we have enough data for conclusions.

-- Larry

[Ron Ecker]

If Stockdale was having legal problems, the guys whom he suggested were out to get him were more likely prosecutors than conspirators.

[John Simkin]

George Smathers presented himself as a close friend of JFK. They got to know each other after they were both elected to the Eightieth Congress in 1946. Smathers also attended JFK’s wedding in 1953.

In 1959 Smathers promised to help JFK become the Democratic candidate for president and became head of the committee in the South to elect Kennedy. However, during the campaign he surprisingly decided to run against Kennedy in Florida. Later he admitted that he did this with the agreement of Lyndon B. Johnson. Smathers explained his actions in an interview he gave to Donald A. Ritchie on 5th September, 1989.

Anyway, so here I was caught between Johnson on the one side, who was my leader, I was his whip, and here was my dear friend, personal friend, Kennedy, and they're going to go into my state and ruin it. What am I going to do? All of my friends are going to say: "Who do we vote for?" Obviously the Catholic votes would go for Jack, and the West Florida people would vote for Johnson, and they'd divide the state very much. So I said, "I don't want you guys to run." I went to Johnson and I said, "Now, Lyndon, I don't want you to run." He said, "I think I can beat him, if you'll help me." I said, "Here I am, I'm a close friend of both of you. I've worked for you, on your team, and yet Jack Kennedy is personally my best friend here in the Senate. So the only thing that I can finally do is I'm going to run myself and keep you guys out. Because I don't think either one of you think you can beat me in my own state." I think that was true. Kennedy beat them in Indiana, he beat them in Maryland, he beat them in Wisconsin, and so on. But to make a long story short, I decided that I was going to run, and I announced that I was going to run for president in Florida, I would be the favorite son from Florida, and that would stop Johnson and Kennedy from dividing up the state. Johnson was pleased with that, he didn't really want to run anyway, but Kennedy kept after me: "You've got to back out, you've got to back out." So let's say the day is now February, the election was going to be the first Tuesday in May. If you're going to file, the filing date expires on let's say February the 16th, or whatever the date was, I've forgotten. I had filed, Kennedy had also filed, and so here we were getting ready to run against each other. I didn't know anything about the polls. I said, "Now, Jack, I think I can beat you." He said, "I don't want to run against you." I said, "Well, I don't want you to." To make a long story short, he kept after me to withdraw. "I want you to withdraw. I want you to withdraw." The day came on the 16th you had until twelve o'clock to withdraw. I got a call from Evelyn Lincoln, Kennedy's secretary, who said, "Senator Kennedy would like to see you." So I went over to his office, and he was sitting there. He said, "Old pal" - he was always starting off that way - "old pal, you've got to do me this favor. You're my best friend, you were in my wedding, and you've got to withdraw. I can win, easy. I'm going to get the nomination. But I don't want to run against you. It's now a quarter of eleven, and you've got until twelve o'clock. I've got a fellow in Tallahassee, in the capital, in the secretary of state's office, waiting to withdraw your name." He said, "You've got to do this for me." I said, "Well, I can't do it. I'm not going to do it." Well, it went back and forth, and finally he got mad and said, "Damn it to hell, what kind of friend are you?" And so and so. I said, "Look, I'm not going to stand here and take all this abuse, so I'm going to go out. I'm leaving. I'm just sorry. If you're going to run, we're going to have a hell of a race, that's all I can say. But I don't want you down there dividing our state. What I will do is after the first ballot, I will instruct my delegates they can go for whomever they want to vote for, either you or Lyndon. You've got Grant Stockdale, who will be on my slate" - you had to put in a slate already - "and he loves you as you know, and he'll be making big speeches for you.

Smathers also betrayed JFK over Marilyn Monroe. According to Sarah Churchill’s recently published book, The Many Lives of Marilyn Monroe (2004), it was Smathers who first leaked the story to the press about the affair. The story first appeared in an article by Dorothy Kilgallen the day before Monroe died (Kilgallen was herself to die in similar circumstances as Monroe on 8th November, 1965).

Why should Smathers do this? One possibility is that Smathers was trying to link JFK with Monroe’s death. According to Matthew Smith’s Victim: The Secret Tapes of Marilyn Monroe (2003) the CIA was involved in a plot to implicate the Kennedys in Monroe’s death as punishment for the Bay of Pigs disaster.

If Smathers was involved in any conspiracy to kill JFK one would expect those close to him like Grant Stockdale to find out about it. One person who might have discovered what was going on was his secretary, Mary Jo Kopechne, and her flat mate, Nancy Carole Tyler, who was Bobby Baker’s secretary. According to Penn Jones, it was Kopchne and Tyler who leaked the story about JFK replacing LBJ by Smathers as vice president.

Nancy Carole Tyler died in a plane crash, near Ocean City, Maryland, on 10th May, 1965.

Kopechne went on to become Robert Kennedy’s secretary. She was to die in Edward Kennedy’s car on 18th July, 1969.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKsmathers.htm

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKkopechne.htm

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKbakerB.htm

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKtylerN.htm

[Wim Dankbaar]

Smathers was also friends with JFK's arch rival Nixon, as well as Dr. alton Ochsner.

He was also interested in Judyth's cancer research. He sent Judyth a letter that she still has.

Wim

[Adele Edisen]

Addition to my earlier post:

I posted this message from Ann Stockdale at the end of my earlier post. I am also placing it here, separately, so that prior readers will not miss it.

Yes I guess that is factual, except I thought that when He came home from Ireland , that he no longer had any $ interest in Vending Machines. One thing I do know is that Kennedy asked Daddy to go to the Air Force Base South of Miami to see if ( against Kennedy's orders) bombs were being loaded on the planes. Bombs WERE being loaded on the planes !! I believe one of the reasons Daddy was killed was because He knew that the Government was being run by the Military Complex. 

The Military Complex didn't want the American People to realize  ( and still don't )  That They were calling the shots. Daddy knew he was being followed... & he told Mom that THEY were going to get Him... and THEY did. There was an attempt on my life also several days after Daddy's funeral . I realize now that this was a scare tactic to silence my Mother...i.e.  if you speak about Anything, Your kids are DEAD.  It Worked !!

Adele, You may add this if you wish. XXOO, Ann

Thank you, Ann.

Adele

[John Simkin]

I discovered today that Lyndon B. Johnson phoned George Smathers the day after the assassination of JFK. In 1963 Smathers was an important member of the Finance Committee. At the time JFK was assassinated Smathers was leading the opposition to the president’s proposal to close tax loopholes. Smathers asked LBJ to help him kill the bill. LBJ replied: LBJ: “No, no, I can't do that. That would destroy the party and destroy the election, and destroy everything. We've got to carry on. We can't abandon this fellow's program, because he is a national hero and there are going to be those people want his program passed and we've got to keep this Kennedy aura around us through this election.”

[John Simkin]

In his book, The Dark Side of Camelot, Seymour Hersh interviews Grant Stockdale’s son. Grant Stockdale Jr. provides some interesting insights into the events surrounding the assassination of JFK.

Grant claims that his father had taken part with JFK in private sex parties at the Carlyle Hotel in New York (1962). Stockdale was invited to the White House at the beginning of November. JFK told Stockdale “I need you to raise some dough – fifty thousand dollars.” “Why me?” he replied. “Because I need it and I count on you to keep it quiet”. “What’s it for?” “It’s for personal use.”

Stockdale did as he was asked. He returned to the White House with a family friend. Kennedy said “thank you,” and opened a nearby closet door, and threw the briefcase in there.” According to the family friend, the closet was full of briefcases.

Grant Stockdale Jr. said that after the assassination of JFK his father was: “Very worried about Bobby Baker. Why would my father be worried about Bobby Baker?”

It is a very good question. Seymour Hersh does not try to answer the question. In fact, one of the major problems with the book is that Hersh appears to know very little about the events surrounding the assassination.

Stockdale is indeed linked in very closely with Bobby Baker. According to William Torbitt (Nonmenclature of an Assassination Cabal ), Stockdale was involved with Bobby Baker, Fred Black, George Smathers and mobsters Ed Levenson and Benny Sigelbaum in a company called Serve-U-Corporation. Established in 1962, the company provided vending machines for companies working on federally granted programs. These contracts were being obtained via the LBJ corrupt network.

Torbitt falsely claims that Stockdale was President of Serve-U-Corporation. That post was held by Eugene Hancock, Stockdale’s business partner and a pall-bearer at his funeral.

Was Baker putting Stockdale under pressure in November, 1963? Was he worried that he was willing to testify before the Senate Rules Committee looking into the business activities of Baker?

What was the link with JFK? Was Baker blackmailing JFK? We know that it was Baker who provided him with Ellen Rometsch. In October, 1963, Robert Kennedy arranged for LaVern Duffy to take a large sum of money to Germany in order to buy the silence of Rometsch. Baker would no doubt want money to keep quiet about this matter. In fact, he probably knew Rometsch’s links with the KGB when he arranged the introduction.

We now know that it was Robert Kennedy who had been leaking information to John Williams about Baker’s corrupt activities. Was the Rometsch/JFK story leaked in retaliation? Or was it done to enable negotiations to take place. Did Baker offer JFK a deal? Get the Senate Rules Committee investigation called off and I will not publish the full story about Rometsch. Did he also want money as well? Does this explain why Stockdale was raising money? Did JFK tell Stockdale why he needed the money? Is that why Stockdale had to die? Did JFK refuse to use his influence to get the Baker investigation stopped? Is that why JFK had to die. Remember, JFK was assassinated on the very day that Don Reynolds provided evidence before the Senate Rules Committee that Baker and LBJ were getting rake-offs for the Fort Worth TFX contract. Although it was in a closed session, LBJ knew that Williams would leak it to the press. LBJ had no option. JFK had to die before 22nd November. It was only as president could he cover up this story.

For further details of these events see my seminar on LBJ and the JFK Assassination.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...opic=2310&st=45

[Jack White]

John...this is closer to the truth than anything else you have posted.

I believe that LBJ corruption (Baker, Estes) is at the heart of the assassination. If it became public, many heads would roll. But it was just one of many tentacles to the octupus. Others such as Dulles, Hoover and Nixon had their own similar reasons for wanting JFK dead. There may have been NO giant organized conspiracy. Jim Marrs told me thirty years ago that IT WAS A CONCERT OF IDEAS... people with differing reasons all wanting the same objective, each doing his part for his own reasons.

Jack

[John Simkin]

John...this is closer to the truth than anything else you have posted.

I believe that LBJ corruption (Baker, Estes) is at the heart of the assassination. If it became public, many heads would roll. But it was just one of many tentacles to the octupus. Others such as Dulles, Hoover and Nixon had their own similar reasons for wanting JFK dead. There may have been NO giant organized conspiracy. Jim Marrs told me thirty years ago that IT WAS A  CONCERT OF IDEAS... people with differing reasons all wanting the same objective, each doing his part for his own reasons.

Jack

The main reason we disagree as that I think you have to separate the assassination with the cover-up. I suspect only one group organized the assassination (figures in the Military Industrial Congressional Complex linked to LBJ and Bobby Baker). However, LBJ, Hoover, Dulles, McCone, the FBI, the CIA, etc., were involved in the cover up. I suspect most of these knew the assassination was going to take place but did nothing to stop it. I am not convinced Nixon had anything to do with it. Although as president he probably found out about the conspiracy.

[Larry Hancock]

In his book, The Dark Side of Camelot, Seymour Hersh interviews Grant Stockdale’s son. Grant Stockdale Jr. provides some interesting insights into the events surrounding the assassination of JFK.

Grant claims that his father had taken part with JFK in private sex parties at the Carlyle Hotel in New York (1962). Stockdale was invited to the White House at the beginning of November. JFK told Stockdale “I need you to raise some dough – fifty thousand dollars.” “Why me?” he replied. “Because I need it and I count on you to keep it quiet”. “What’s it for?” “It’s for personal use.”

For further details of these events see my seminar on LBJ and the JFK Assassination.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...opic=2310&st=45

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

John, I'd like to know a lot more about the sources for some of those remarks about sex parties and collecting bag money; if JFK trusted Stockdale and its true then Stockdale apparently was not a man to keep secrets. On the other hand its such great gossip and sounds so much like Bobby Baker that I'll remain skeptical unless someone can dig up who and when and where it actually came from from Stockdale to the son or others.

However I can comment on why Stockdale had ample reason to be worried about Baker. Stockdale had operated a vending company that seems to have been the prototype for Baker's ServeUCorp. And Stockdale's company had gotten into legal trouble and one of Stockdale's associates had gotten into the ServeUCorp thing with Bobby....at least that's how I remember it. And the Congressional Committees were very interested in that fellow and his background. If the investigation had really expanded I suspect Stockdale had every reason to anticipate some time on the stand himself - which would have refloated the problems he had been earlier and caused him all sorts of trouble.