David Josephs

@Larry Hancock There is no doubt there are many interpretations possible from that sentence. There were actually 2-4 different "ALVARADO" type people from MX claiming to have seen Oswald in various places, in various cars, with various people. We know ALVARADO was a CIA asset... And the ball gets rolling the day after Phillips arrives. I see ALVARADO as a direct DAP asset telling that story as were a number of other "cover" stories (VILLANUEVA) generated to make it appear he was at the embassies and was involved in some plot. Could you elaborate on this Larry? I thought the entire thing was taken care of via the CIA and Nicaragua... a CIA memo asks that he be gives something to do in Nicaragua to keep him out of trouble. But I don't remember seeing the FBI involved in this. 63-12-02 ALVARADO BEING DEPORTED DEC 4 TO NIC WITH WHEELOCK docid-32169184.pdf

False "story" - As I read this again in a new light, the "story" of him on MX is all bogus... as opposed to a true story of his being taken in and out to meet "contacts" at the Luna - but I think we need to dig deeper than June Cobb and Mrs. Davis. as sources for this meeting. As for Bowen... We see no better example of the WCR deciding what was and wasn't evidence, and who was or was not to be believed.

Yes, I wrote about the Peck reports a while back. I also want to say that Oswald not being at the Embassies, does not mean he was not in and out of of Mexico that week. The Luna hotel is a bout 20 minutes south of the Comercio and the embassies. And since we do not know where he was from the 27th thru the 3rd... his being there is more than possible. But the bus rides and evidence related is all made up. As is the hotel registry and the tourist visa thanks to Gaudet. And they looked into the one couple they could find - BRILL - and found an interesting and conflicting story there as well. BILL ALLEN becomes STEVE BRILL FWIW

I'm with you Eddy, maybe I can help. The "1 foot starting diff" is elevation 418.48 - 417.5 = .98 feet x 18.3 (the run in feet to 1 foot in rise on Elm) = 18 horizontal feet DIFFERENCE by placing JFK at the filmed 313 versus his actual location. Except the recreation only has a 1.65 foot horizontal difference when they arrive there due to the .09 vertical difference between FBI elevation 421.75 and Actual elevation 421.66 at the spot of z313. In other words - and Chris please correct me - the 17 foot difference would be the distance the recreation limo traveled while the actual limo slowed to a "stop" and started up again. IOW the speed of the recreation limo at that moment was very slow for it to travel only 17 feet in the 2-3 seconds it took to slow and start again, so that both would end up at 313 at about the right time. The standardly applied 3.27 feet did not take into account the shot to the throat and his hunching over slightly from his sitting up straight position higher up Elm. There's a bit more to it than that, but for the circa 313 shot(s) discussed here, and the limo stop which preceded, Chris shows how z313 in CE884 was the agreed upon location for the derivative single shot that had to hit there.

Doug... say it isn't so my man. I understand those who have a limited grasp of the information available being overly skeptical... but you know better than that Doug. You of all people know how difficult bringing forward evidence of this nature is - and I wonder for what possible gain, and to whom? I keep a healthy amount of skepticism, yet am finding the timing of the notes and the timing of events that seemed unrelated before when seen from a different POV, make a different kind of sense.If it is i And what is the conclusion of the "forgery" ? Angleton, Barnes, W. Harvey (and many others directly related to ZR/RIFLE) - who we have suspected all along as being part of the Facilitators - are being shown in that very light. And you can't buy that? Men connected via the trials of war and espionage who now sit atop one of the most powerful and clandestine apparatuses the world has known... and a young playboy president betraying their country to the Russians so that we and the communists can continue to "breathe the same air". Is it truly that hard to accept that the Mil Ind Complex has its protectorate? That issues on the global stage are much more complicated than "getting out of Vietnam"? and the deepest and longest embracing of hatred after religion is ideology based - how to control the hearts and minds of the masses for "our" own ends. We KNOW Oswald didn't do it We KNOW the military enabled the post assassination cover-up with the SS, FBI, CIA & INS We KNOW the CIA, Cubans, Mafia, Chi-comms, etc are cover narratives after the "Oswald did it" narrative is stripped away We KNOW there are powerful forces in this world which were even more empowered during the early 60's I remain at a loss for why intelligent people cannot embrace what may be a roadmap to the very people we've suspected - with names of those never before considered - and the connections leading to a resolution. When do we stop spending time showing Oswald didn't do it and start spending time looking into the evidence that may lead us to who did?

SS interview - 4th paragraph left side: "She was asked...trips to Mexico or Washington, DC. She replied in the negative." The rest of CE1792 is worth a read. The FBI report, below that from those first few days after 11/22, states the same. I must add though that there is some evidence of Oswald meeting with Davis III at the LUNA MOTEL in MX during the time nothing in evidence has him placed anywhere. In fact, until Kaack's 10/31/63 report, there is no mention of our man Oswald at all in the FBI reports. Worse yet are the charades Leibeler put Marina up to in Aug/Sept 1964 with the bogus Del Norte bus ticket found in a book in a suitcase - which was about the same time they got around to Odio and dismissing her story.

Only if you believe them - for which there is no good reason when we are aware of conflicting testimony of those who were not the CIA-affiliated Manager of the Misc Dept. . And the Baker 2nd floor encounter has been dismissed for the twaddle it was when offered. Never happened. No coke, no door, no window, no boxes in the way, no drawn gun... none of that happened... But SAWYER and men did run into a man getting off the elevator as they were getting on to go to the 4th floor.. this at 12:34... ...As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket. s/ M. L. Baker SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963 /s/ Mary Rattan We need to remember he is talking about the FOURTH FLOOR... And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor (DJ 4th floor was this elevator's "top floor"), which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything. Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct? Mr. SAWYER. That's right. Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door? Mr. SAWYER. Right. Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man. Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door? Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right. Mr. BELIN. To the right? Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN. Was it a freight elevator or a passenger elevator? Mr. SAWYER. The best of my recollection, it was a passenger elevator. Mr. BELIN. Did you push for the top button in that elevator? Mr. SAWYER. Well, I don't know who pushed it, but we went up to the top floor. Mr. BELIN. You went up to the top floor that the elevator would go to? Mr. SAWYER. That's right. Mr. BELIN. You got off, and were there officers there? Mr. SAWYER. There was one or two other officers with me. FOURTH FLOOR! Mr. BELIN. Now Inspector, what did you do then? Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building. When one turned right where the gate was between the "executive parking" and the WEST wall of the TSBD, one would find 2 entrances to the 1st floor Mr. BALL - Is it the one right off Houston Street? Mr. LOVELADY - No; you are thinking about another dock. Mr. BALL - I am? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes; we have two. Mr. BALL - Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side of the building? Mr. LOVELADY - East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it from the south side. Mr. BALL - Now, the south side--- Mr. LOVELADY - Elm Street is that little dead-end street. Mr. BALL - That's south. Mr. LOVELADY - I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this direction; that would have to be west. Mr. BALL - You came into the building from the west side? Mr. LOVELADY - Right. Mr. BALL - Where did you go into the building? Mr. LOVELADY - Through that, those raised-up doors. Mr. BALL - Through the raised-up doors? Mr. LOVELADY - Through that double door that we in the morning when we get there we raised. There's a fire door and they have two wooden doors between it. Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor? Mr. LOVELADY - Right. Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor? Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie. Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie? Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end. Mr. BALL - At the west end? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room. Below this schematic is a modern day look at that area and how small it really is. The door at the south was turned into a window with the other 2 entrances made into a main entrance with stairs for each. The RR tracks they refer to are not the ones in this image but are much further to the WEST. It is my understanding from the evidence Shelley was inside the TSBD very soon after the shots and did not go anywhere with Lovelady other than inside the TSBD. I've seen the gif of 2 men walking in that direction claimed to be Shelley and Lovelady, yet their heights and sizes do not bear that out... IMO. The electricity to key areas of the TSBD went out and Shelley is found in the vicinity of the electrical board in the NE corner of the 1st floor on the wall outside the Domino Room.

The FBI began looking at the end of October - on 11/8 they ask their assets at the Gobernacion.. OCHOA of the Gobernacion will be the one providing all the evidence of Oswald in Mexico - despite it being reported NO INFO LOCATED RE LEE HARVEY OSWALD. The FBI did all they could to hide these reports by not listing their titles or content on the master logs. . . Asking GOODPASTURE about that "mistake", with Win Scott backing her up.

Thanks Gil... I started out by seeing this from LOPEZ and immediately smelling a rat. And subsequent doc releases added additional support. @Gerry Down @Jonathan Cohen You two really have nothing better to do than chime in on threads about which you have little to no knowledge at all, just to make uninformed comments about the work of others you can never seem to understand. Do you EVER offer your own work that doesn't wind up looking remedial or are you both nothing more than LNer talking-point-parrots hoping someone with some knowledge and ability comes to your aid as you pollute yet another thread? You do realize the two of you (and a handful of others) are seen as absurd little children with nothing EVER to offer, and for some reason you are allowed to infect these pages day after day with no recourse but to IGNORE all your posts, as I do. Sadly when others quote your drek we have to see what you think passes for astute criticism - yet consistently amounts to nothing more than the 2 of you whining about that which you cannot comprehend. With nothing to contribute and little understanding of what others say... why you both are even here remains a mystery - maybe just the comic relief and a reminder of how pathetic LNer arguments and rebuttals have become.

@Pat Speer Seems they did say a few things about it. And to actually believe it was BALL/BELIN who decided something of that magnitude on their own, especially that they "decided to pin it on Oswald", is beyond the pale even for you Pat. Like giving Specter credit for "pinning it LHO with the SBT". Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly. Mr. BALL - And Truly? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building? Mr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in. Mr. BALL - And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, uh-huh, Mr. BALL - Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor? Mr. SHELLEY - I sure don't remember. Mr. BALL - You don't. Mr. SHELLEY - No Mr. BALL - They were running from that way or toward that way? Mr. LOVELADY - Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction. Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building? Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building. Mr. BALL - How many steps? Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building? Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked. Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor? Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie. (DJ: No one had mentioned the name Vickie Adams to this point - LOVELADY volunteers the info) Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie? Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman. Mr. BALL - What is her full name? Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know. Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams? Mr. LOVELADY - I believe so. Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw? Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear. Mr. BALL - Where was the girl? Mr. LOVELADY - I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what. (DJ: And corroborating Bill SHELLEY was also there) Does Ms Arnold's statement help place Oswald moving towards the steps about that time? Any reason for the WC to mess with her information about Oswald?

I found of few of your old writings in fact... Great stuff btw...

@Leslie Sharp @Ed Berger Came across this if it can be of any help. BY KB IN ENCYCLOPEDIA — MAR 5, 2022 World Commerce Corporation. https://wydna.org/world-commerce-corporation/ Individuals involved in WCC: • William Horrigan -- president -- OSS veteran • John Pepper -- vice president • Ricardo Sicre -- vice president -- OSS • B.H. Boncompagni -- general counsel -- some kinfd of Italian prince from an ancient money family • Edward Blick -- director • James F. Cavagnaro -- director -- VP of Transamerica, the holding company that owns Bank of America • W.W. Cumberland -- director -- expert on Latin American economies, had been part of the John Foster Dulles Paris Peace Conference delegation, advisor to the State Department, financial advisor to the Haitian government, member of the New York Stock Exchange • William Donovan -- director • Daniel de Menocal -- director • Russell Forgan -- director -- OSS, investment banker, had been involved in the committees that set up the CIA • Joseph Grew -- director • L. Boyd Hatch -- director -- investment banker, business partner of Floyd Odhum, who owned RKO before selling it to Howard Hughes. Hatch and Odum developed Pine Glenn Clove, a private retreat for the New York and Hollywood bigwigs located in Utah • Frank Ryan -- director • William Stephenson -- director • Edward Stettinius -- director Companies mentioned in the WCC 1945 papers • British-American-Canadian Corporation • Keswick Marine Panama S.A. (see Jardine-Matheson file) • Weyerhauser Steamship Company: the maritime subsidiary of the Weyerhauser logging and mining complex, based in canada • Bechtel Brothers-McCone International Company: the Bechtel conglomerate's division set up to handle projects in Saudi Arabia • Sun-Douglas Shipping Corporation: no available information on this company other than it was registered in Panama and appears in the Panama Papers. Wondering if this is connected to Sun Oil, because they had a subsidiary, Sun Shipbuilding. • Seven Seas Shipping Company: principles unknown, appears to have been set up in the 1930s. • International Corporation Company: one of the most generic names I've ever seen Asbestos Mining in Venezuela Asbestos mining in Venezuela was monopolized by a company called AMVECO, which is listed in 1950s trade journals as a "partner" of WCC. WCC seems to have been involved in the 'modernization' of the Venezuelan asbestos industry, bringing AMVECO together with specialty tool manufacturers to produce more effective extraction and processing methods. It also seems to have worked closely with the Venezuelan government in building roads etc to increase traffic to and from mining sites. Spanish tourism WCC was, according to 1950s trade journals, deeply involved in the promotion of Spanish tourism, and undertook both a series of development projects and currency trading operations to spurr this growth. Interestingly, the Ryans frequented Spain, and Sicre lived there for some time in this period. Sicre appears in a series of columns written by an 'adventure' journalist named Robert Ruark -- and curiously enough, the inventory list of the Ruark archives shows extensive correspondence between Ruark and the WCC. Ruark's Spanish columns might be something like 'guerrilla marketing' for Spanish tourism -- they are exotic, filled with intrigue, and peppered with celebrities. In one column on Spanish bull fighting, he describes himself as part of a "secret society that strides the world" -- and mentions not only Sicre and the Ryans as members, but Texas oilman Jake Hamon as well (he was discussed in the JFK ep). What Ruark omits -- but was discovered by Ralph Ganis and Halk Albarelli -- was that Otto Skorzeny was part of this scene, and in fact lived in the same building as Ruark and Sicre. Skorzeny at this time was involved in a series of business ventures in Spain, including one that involved Texas oilmen (Degolyer and Crichton). So it seems like a neat little circle. More Ruark Many of Ruark's columns featuring Sicre involve safaris in Africa. One is about hanging out at Safarilandia in Mozambique with the reserve's owner, a German named Werner Alvensleben. Alvensleben was a former SS officer during WW2 who had been secretly working for the OSS. Another episode involves Ruark, Sicre, the actor William Holden (who also lived in the same building as Ruark, Sicre and Skorzeny), and a professional gambler/failed oilman/California real estate developer for the stars named Ray Ryan on a Safari in Kenya. Sicre and Ruark convince Holden and Ruark to purchase the property, which becomes known as the Safari Club. What makes this interesting is that the Safari Club is later sold by Holden and Ryan to Edward Moss of the CIA -- whose CIA file, incidentally, described his "longstanding connections to organized crime". Moss, in turn, brought Adnan Khashoggi into the Safari Club, who became its new owner. It was under these auspices that the 'Safari Club', organized by French and Middle Eastern intelligence services during Carter's reform-the-CIA efforts, was launched. Shackley's network would work closely with the Safari Club, and it was also the Safari Club that was the main driver behind the formation of BCCI. Curiously, around the time this was happening, Ray Ryan was killed by a bomb wired to the ignition switch of his car. The murder was never solved. The Silk King WCC principles had a close relationship with Thailand. William Stephenson, for example, was a personal friend of the Thai royal family, and the extended web of dealings with the KMT seeped down through these networks. For a Bangkok representative of the WCC, Donovan brought in James Thompson, who had served in the OSS in France before running the OSS Thailand Station. After the war, Thompson set up the Thai Silk Company Limited, which was financed by the WCC. Tourist Villas in JamaicaImmediately adjacent to the estates in Jamaica purchased by Stephenson, Wiseman, Donovan, etc -- Paul Raigorodsky organizes a venture called the Tryall Club Raigorodsky -- worked for DeGolyer, close friend of Jake Hamon, friend of Mohrenschildt, connected to the Tolstoy Foundation Other investors: other Dallas interests, Winthrop Rockefeller, and John Pringle & Peter Kerr-Jerrett -- involved in other development ventures with the Bronfmans, Keswicks Stephenson & Co. in Canada Stephenson was connected to the Cement & General Development Corp, which carried out some of the development efforts in Jamaica. Along with the Harrimans and the Canadian government, Cement & General Development Corp became shareholders in the Newfoundland & Labrador Company, a public-private industrial conglomerate that was awarded extensive mining and logging concessions, given contracts to build hydro-electric plants, etc. Stephenson subsequently stepped down from Cement & General Development Corp and joined the Newfoudland & Labrador Company as chairman. At the same time that Newfoundland & Labrador was going to work, a second company, the British Newfoundland Corp, also arrived on the scene. The press reported the British Newfoundland Corp as a competitor -- but a glance through its backers shows that it emerges from the same network as the Newfoundland & Labrador Company. It has been organized by Nathan Rothschild, and the De Beer's partner Anglo-American, Rio Tinto, Hambros Bank, and Robert Benson Company.

Can ask the same about Frazier Mr. BALL - Which is Commission's Exhibit No. 362. Can you come over here and show us about where you were standing? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here. Mr. BALL - Yes, sir. Mr. FRAZIER - We have a bar rail running about half way up here. This was the first step and I was standing right around there. Mr. BALL - Put a mark there. Your name is Frazier, put an "F" there for Frazier. You did see that I posted this the first time right? Why do we not see either man in Altgens? Either Wesley has it wrong, or they are farther into the shade of the EAST corner of the landing. The logical flaw is Since A, then B. Since Shelley wore a tie and jacket that day, then he must be the man behind Lovelady wearing a tie to the exclusion of all others... When he tells you himself he is not in the Altgens photo. Since you do not know what Molina wore, and Molina puts himself in that exact spot, it is very possible Molina is "tie-man" in Altgens... especially since Shelley says it's not him. Really not the point... Even Frazier does not put a person into the WEST corner of the landing... wonder why?

That logic does not follow Andrej. Shelley in a suit does not automatically make him the man with a tie in Altgens, in fact: When Shelley was shown the Altgens photo he said he was not shown in the photo while ID'ing Lovelady. Shelley was rail thin and the "tie-man" in Altgens does not seem that way to me.

RICHARD GIBSON, US founder of FPCC, was attempting to create a FPCC in Algeria at the beginning of Jan 1963. The name CHANDERLI comes up. GIBSON lived in Algiers from April 1963 and is thought to have been paid by the Cubans... fwiw Not sure if any connection exists, yet y'all would know better... https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2022/104-10217-10214.pdf.

Some visuals to go with the names... I did not compile this collage fwiw

I appreciate what you are claiming Andrej, I simply disagree with your identifying "tie-man" as Shelley when I believe it was Molina. Shelley was rail thin. Molina was not... That no one mentions him is quite odd. He also says that there was no policeman with Truly entering the building Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building? Mr. MOLINA. Yes. Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building? Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance. Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him? Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside. Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance? Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know. The problem I have with PM=LHO is the number of people walking past him, staring at him, etc as we see in the images you posted. Frazier is basically staring at this man and says nothing. Prayerman is definitely there when Lovelady is seen in that landing watching the motorcade go by, so PM/LHO did not go out afterward but was there a good part of the time. Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building? Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in. Mr. BALL. Where were you standing? Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door. Mr. BALL. Outside the front door? Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me. Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps? Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step. Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go Mr. MOLINA. Yeah. Mr. BALL. You were still standing there? Mr. MOLINA. Yes. Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots? Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards. Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before you saw Truly go in? Mr. MOLINA. No. Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary? Mr. MOLINA. Yes. Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up? Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl. Mr. BALL. What did she say? Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent. Mr. BALL. You left the building that day about what time and went home? Mr. BALL. Then what happened? Mr. SHELLEY. Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said “The President has been shot” and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute. Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them. Mr. BALL - And who was out there? Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards. Mr. BALL - You were standing where? Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there. Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance? Except that's not where Viles puts himself... So Shelley l-ies about who was up there and then tells 2 stories about what happened afterward... Shelley - Manager of the Miscellaneous Department under Truly. Mr. BALL - When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to you? Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also. Mr. BALL - Which is Commission's Exhibit No. 362. Can you come over here and show us about where you were standing? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here. Problem as I see it is Frazier placing Lovelady down on the steps, himself down on a step when he does not appear in Altgens. In the bottom right image Lovelady is at the center handrail and on the top step, from having been well over to the left in Hughes. And MOLINA is up there the entire time, whereas Shelley tells a little fib and to who was up there and where he went.what he did afterward.

@Pete Mellor Bookout and Hosty were in the room together and listened to the questioning and both wrote reports that were typed up and signed by 11/23. (See images at bottom of post) Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?Mr. BALL - Yes. On 11-22 his statement has nothing to do with Lovelady, police officers, RR tracks or moving to the west end or rear of the TSBD to go back inside. The phone he is talking about may be the one in his office... Point is Shelley would not have been outside on the steps much after 12:30. When would Oswald been able to come out and stand with him after his lunch and before/during/after the shooting? Shelley claims to have left with Lovelady, and is seen very soon after at the rear of the TSBD by the loading dock and electrical panel. Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock. It is my impression Shelley and Lovelady turned right at the opening between the TSBD and the parking and were at the back dock very quickly after the shooting.

Tom Alyea, "Facts and Photos" From Connie Kritzberg's Secrets from the Sixth Floor Window, pp. 39-46 Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the enclosure next to the rifle. He knew then that the possibility of a fire fight with the sniper had greatly diminished. He dispatched one of his men to go down and call for the crime lab. About fifteen minutes later, Lt. Day and Studebaker arrived. Still pictures were taken of the positioning of the rifle, then Lt. Day slid it out from its hiding place and held it up for all of us to see. The world has seen my shot of this many times. Lt. Day immediately turned toward the window behind him and started dusting the weapon for fingerprints. Day was still within the enclosure formed by the surrounding boxes. I filmed him lifting prints from the rifle. He lifted them off with scotch tape and placed them on little white cards. When he had finished, he handed the rifle to Captain Fritz. Fritz pulled the bolt back and a live round ejected and landed on the boxes below. Fritz put the cartridge in his pocket. I did not see Fritz pick up anything other than the live round. . . . I filmed Captain Fritz talking with associates in this dismantled area [the "sniper's nest"], along with Studebaker, who was dusting the Dr. Pepper bottle which had been brought up to him from the 5th floor. This is all recorded on my film. I never learned if prints were lifted from the pop bottle. I'm not sure if anybody ever asked. I took the film from my camera, placed it back into its metal can, wrapped the tape around it, and tossed it to our News Editor, A. J. L'Hoste, who was waiting outside with the other newsmen who were not allowed in the building. A. J. raced it to the television station which was about three blocks away. About fifteen minutes later the world saw the murder weapon, where it was found and pictures of the crime lab people dusting it for fingerprints, and the shell casings that once housed those bullets. They also saw how the assassin prepared for his ambush and the view he had of the killing zone.

So what he was looking for within these letters ?? You really think this has to do with Israeli intelligence and not what he may communicate to Russia? To imply this has anything to do with the assassination seems quite a stretch. I'd think it more telling that Admiral Tayler of ONI was interested in Oswald at the end of 1962 up thru and after 11/22. Anyone? “The memo shows that high-level CIA officers were interested in the smallest details of Oswald’s life 17 months before Kennedy was killed,” Jefferson Morley, an author of multiple books about the CIA, and about Kennedy, said on his blog, JFK Facts, after the revelation. “If Oswald was the ‘lone gunman,’ as a substantial minority of Americans believe, the clandestine service had much more access to his personal information than most know.” 17 months is June 1962 - the month the Oswald's return. Does anyone remember seeing any reports about what Efron/CIA found or thought was contained in any of these letters? And as a Jewish person reading the different takes from different papers - those that even quote this "Times of Israel" article - I am more concerned about this regurgitation from the Toronto Star: The 3,539 records include FBI and CIA reports on Soviet spies, the assassination of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., and Lee Harvey Oswald’s trip to Mexico City a few weeks before he murdered Kennedy in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963. The way the original as written it sounds to me more "proud of the home town kid" - I'd dismiss any thoughts that the "Times of Israel" or the "Jerusalem Post" was writing anything anti-Semitic. It is the Israeli's who are focused on the Judaism of the person and is only referenced in the story due to who was writing it and where it appears.

I think the point here Denis is that Day holds up a rifle in the Alyea film... and your assumption this is CE139 - when Boone would be referring to the rifle he writes about in his affidavit. Not that there were 2 rifles, but that the 7.65 Mauser he saw was the only rifle filmed/photographed up there. That CE139 is supposedly provably a 6.5 cal so when they "show" it to Boone and describe it as a 6.5 cal Carcano he gave a politically correct answer. "It looks like the same rifle. I HAVE NO WAY OF BEING POSITIVE". Of course you do Boone. Ask him "is this the same caliber rifle as what you identified in your affidavit?" Image on the left is during the Alyea film when Day hold up the rifle to show there is no clip jammed in there - next to it on the left is a closeup of the rifle Day leaves the TSBD carrying showing no caliber stamp, and on the right the only image of a rifle's caliber in the whole of the available evidence. .

Thanks Gil, I never could understand why he and Weitzman would write and sign affidavits attesting to the specific characteristics of the rifle, when they didn't have to: if they wrote: "similar to a Mauser bolt action with a scope" they're in the clear. The exactness/similarity of the way they wrote their statements seems odd as well. Boone knows who was with him... Officer Whitman? Every rabbit hole is just so deep...

Getting back to which Mail this man read... One of the more surprising things I discovered looking thru the evidence was the complete lack of mail TO LEE from his mother or Robert while he was in the Marines despite testimony stating he and Marge wrote quite often. I've tried a few different sources for Efron but have yet to find out from which time period they are referring. Anyone know? Between 1956 and 1959 when Marge claims he and her were frequently, we do not have a single letter either TO or FROM Lee Oswald to his mother or anyone else. From WCR evidence index of Letters from Lee https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=604 is a letter from Sept 1959 which MO refers to in her testimony where Lee talks about booking passage on a ship to Europe. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=234576#relPageId=160&search=reuben_efron This description of Oswald comes up a lot as well... Below this memo from EFRON is Oswald's discharge... He's from NEW ORLEANS, AND HE WAS NEVER HIGHER THAN A PRIVATE. ROBERT, on the other hand, was a Sergeant from Fort Worth... fwiw. One would think the CIA would know2 whose mail they were opening Below is the Senate investigation cover page for a look into FBI/CIA Domestic Spying... DJ 41 letters in the WCR index of evidence are FROM LEE to either Robert or his Mother, with his mother claiming to have written to him quite often. These are the letters TO LEE found in the WCR. Letter from "Brick" to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated August 22, 1962. Letter from Patrice Lmnumba University to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated May 3, 1961. Letter from Prof. Hans Casparis, Albert Schweitzer College, to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated March 22, 1960, with envelope. Copy of letter from E. Weibel, Albert Schweitzer College, to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated March 28, 1959. Letter from B. Weibel, Albert Schweitzer College, to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated July 10, 1959. Letter from Joseish B. Norbury, American Embassy, Moscow, to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated December 14, 1961. Letter from the American Embassy In Moscow to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated November 8, 1959. Letter from the American Embassy in Moscow to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated February 28, 1961. Copy of a letter from Pioneer Publishers to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated September 29, 1962; a receipt dated August 31, 1962; an order blank from Lee Harvey Oswald to Pioneer Publishers for a copy of "The Teachings of Leon Trotsky"; an envelope post- marked January 21, 1963, from Lee Harvey Oswald to the Pioneer Publishers. Copy of a letter from Mrs. V. Halstead, Pioneer Publishers, to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated April 26, 1963. Letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to the Socialist Workers Party, dated August 12, 1962; newspaper ad coupon from Lee Harvey Oswald to the Socialist Workers Party; copy of letter from Sherry Finer, Socialist Workers Party, to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated August 23, 1962. Letter from Farrell Dobbs to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated November 5, 1962. Letter from Bob Chester to Lee Harvey Oswald dated December 9, 1962. Letter from Joseph Task, Socialist Workers Party, to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated March 27, 1963. Letter from Arnold S. Johnson to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated July 31,1963 Letter from Arnold S. Johnson to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated September 19, 1963. Letter from V. T. Lee, national director of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated May 29, 1963. Letter from V. T. Lee, national director of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated May 22, 1963. Copy of a letter from James J. Tormey to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated December 13, 1962. Letter from Louis Weinstock, general manager of the Worker, to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated December19, 1961 Copy of a letter dated March 24, 1961, from Richard E. Snyder, American Embassy, Moscow, to Lee Harvey Oswald, Minsk. Copy of a letter dated July 24, 1961, from John A. MeVickar, American Embassy, Moscow, to Lee Harvey Oswald, Minsk. Copy of a letter dated November 13, 1961, from Joseph B. Norbury, American Embassy, Moscow, to Lee Harvey Oswald, Minsk. Copy of a letter dated January 5, 1962, from Samuel G. Wise, American Embassy, Moscow, to Lee Harvey Oswald, Minsk. Copy of a letter dated January 15, 1962, from Samuel G. Wise, American Embassy, Moscow, to Lee Harvey Oswald, Minsk. Letter dated February 28, 1961, from Richard E. Snyder, American Embassy, Moscow, to Lee Harvey Oswald, Minsk, with envelope. Letter dated March 24, 1961, from Richard E. Snyder, American Embassy, Moscow, to Lee Harvey Oswald, Minsk, with envelope. Copy of a letter dated January 11, 1963, from R. C. Reeley, Office of Finance, to Lee Harvey Oswald, Dallas, Tex. Letter dated January 15, 1962, from Samuel G. Wise, American Embassy, Moscow, to Lee Harvey Oswald, Minsk, with envelope. Letter dated February 28, 1962, from J. W. Holland, District Director, San Antonio Office, Immigration and Naturalization 55-57 Service, to Lee Harvey Oswald, Minsk, enclosing "Instructions to the Applicant," with envelope (FBI item 246). Letter dated January 5, 1962, from Samuel G. Wise, American Embassy, Moscow, to Lee Harvey Oswald, Minsk, enclosing document entitled "Evidence Which Can Be Presented To Meet the Public Charge Provision of the Law," with envelope. Letter to Commission dated May 13, 1964, from Peter Megargee Brown, enclosing photostatic copies of all materials relating to Lee Harvey Oswald in possession or control of the Community Service Society or its counsel (CD 930). Letters dated August 22 and July 6, 1963, from Eugene John Murret to Lee Harvey Oswald. Letter dated February 23, 1962, from John Connally to Lee Harvey Oswald, notifying him his letter of January 30 has been referred to Navy Department (CD 1114, 11-30). Letter from National Security Agency dated June 16, 1964, to Commission, concerning cryptologists' report on materials relating to Lee Harvey Oswald (CD 1120). "So if Hoover already had Oswald's letter the day after the assassination, then there was no need for Ruth to deliver her handwritten copy to the FBI the same day except of course, to protect the FBI's highly secret mail interception operation, Ruth may have simply been a concerned citizen doing her duty, unaware of the FBI's mail operation…" SUPPLEMENTARY DETAILED STAFF REPORTS ON INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES AND THE RIGHTS OF AMERICANS BOOK III FINAL REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE TO STUDY GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS WITH RESPECT TO INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES UNITED STATES SENATE APRIL 23 (under authority of the order of April 14), 1976 DOMESTIC CIA AND FBI MAIL OPENING PROGRAMS PART II: CIA DOMESTIC MAIL OPENING I. INTRODUCTION AND MAJOR FACTS The CIA conducted four mail opening programs within the United States, the longest of which lasted for twenty years. These programs resulted in the opening and photographing of nearly a quarter of a million items of correspondence, the vast majority of which were to or from American residents. While the programs were ostensibly conducted for foreign intelligence and counterintelligence purposes, one former high-ranking CIA official characterized the Agency's use of this technique as a "shotgun" approach to intelligence collection; 2 neither Congressmen, journalists, nor businessmen were immune from mail interception. With cooperation from the FBI, domestic "dissidents" were directly targeted in one of the programs. The major facts regarding CIA domestic mail opening may be summarized as follows: a. The CIA conducted four mail opening programs in four cities within the United States for varying lengths of time between 1953 and 1973: New York (1953-1973) ; San Francisco (four separate occasions, each of one to three weeks duration, between 1969 and 1971) ; New Orleans (three weeks in 1957) ; and Hawaii (late 1954 -- late 1955). The mail of twelve individuals in the United States, some of whom were American citizens unconnected with the Agency, was also opened by the CIA in regard to particular cases. b. The stated purpose of all of the mail opening programs was to obtain useful foreign intelligence and counterintelligence information. At least one of the programs produced no such information, however, and the continuing value of the major program in New York was discounted by many Agency officials. c. Despite the stated purpose of the programs, numerous domestic dissidents, including peace and civil rights activists, were specifically targeted for mail opening. d. The random selection of mail for opening, by CIA employees untrained in foreign intelligence objectives and without substantial guidance from their superiors, also resulted in the interception of communications to or from high-ranking United States government officials, as well as journalists, authors, educators, and businessmen. e. All of the mail opening programs were initiated without the prior approval of any government official outside of the Agency. f. Only five Cabinet level officials, and possibly one President, were briefed in varying degrees of detail about the New York program during the twenty years it continued, and there is no conclusive evidence that any of these officials ever authorized -- or knew of -- the mail opening aspect of the project. The evidence suggests that in the cases of some of these officials, their professed lack of knowledge about mail opening was due to a stated desire to remain ignorant of the details of the program. g. No high-ranking government official was ever briefed about three of the four mail opening programs. h. Postal officials whose cooperation was necessary to effect the programs were purposefully misled as to the purpose of the projects, the question of custody of the letters, and the fact of mail opening itself. i. One President of the United States, whether through design or negligence, was given false and misleading information about the existence of CIA mail opening programs. In 1970, the Director of Central Intelligence signed a document for submission to the President which stated that all mail opening programs by federal agencies had been discontinued. This Director knew that at that time the most extensive CIA mail opening program continued to operate in New York. j. Within the Agency itself, two former Directors of Central Intelligence did not authorize and apparently did not even know about any of the mail opening programs that were conducted during their tenure. Another former Director was unaware of at least one mail opening project during his term. k. Some senior Agency officials whose approvals were sought in connection to one mail opening program were apparently deceived as to its true nature by middle-level officers. The senior officials were requested to authorize a mail cover operation only, but mail opening was both contemplated at the time of the requests and did in fact occur. l. None of the programs was ever subjected to formal internal evaluation. Such review as did occur concluded that the largest of the programs were poorly administered and without substantial benefit to the CIA. These conclusions were ignored and the project continued. m. Because of the extreme sensitivity of the projects and the internal pattern of compartmentation, many of those CIA components which could have derived the greatest foreign intelligence value from the product were not even aware of the mail opening programs. n. Most of the major participants in the mail opening programs believed that the Agency's activities in this area were unlawful. No definitive legal opinion was ever sought from the CIA's General Counsel, and the evidence suggests that knowledge of the programs was purposefully withheld from him for security reasons. o. The general reaction among Agency officials to the perceived illegality of mail opening was to fabricate "cover stories'' for public consumption and to agree on a public denial of CIA domestic mail opening activity in the event such activity were exposed. p. During periods of active Congressional investigation into invasions of privacy by federal agencies, and when persons knowledgeable of CIA mail openings were in a position to be called to testify before Congress, security precautions for mail opening programs were tightened to reduce the risk of exposure. q. In part because of his "secrecy agreement" with the Agency, a former CIA employee who was in a position at the Postal Service to force the termination of a mail opening program was inhibited from doing so for several years. His loyalty to the CIA, even after he left its service, prevented him from informing the Postmaster General of its existence. r. The largest of the mail opening projects was not terminated until 1973, when, in the charged political climate of the times, it was considered too great a "political risk" to continue. It was not terminated because it was perceived to be illegal per se.

@James DiEugenio @Micah Mileto I've always been a bit confused by this as they also claimed these people met in the building behind 1026 Beckley. And from the images at the bottom of this post, the address seems to be in somewhat of a conflict. I do have a couple images from one of these meetings, with a suggestion of someone who may be Oswald, 2nd image... It resembles how Oswald stood in a number of other images. Hope this is helpful Can you help us understand this? 3114 Harlendale... and the image below that shows no 3128 on that street. Was there a building behind 3126 that was removed?