Jim Root
-
Posts
1,020 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Store
Posts posted by Jim Root
-
-
Jim,
Same question as Ron: How in your view does McCloy's letter neutralize Walker?
Steve
Steve and Ron
My research has led me to many different areas in search of conspirators involved in the assassination of John F. Kennedy and the whole tale that I have uncovered is rather complicated. The McCloy letter is of interest to me for many reasons, one of which is the date that it was written in comparison to the American University Speech (two days after).
There are certain undeniable facts that can here be associated to that particular time in history:
1. Kennedy's speech of June 10, 1963 was a public announcement of a policy change that was not at all accepted by John J. McCloy. In fact McCloy refused to engage the Soviets based upon Kennedy's change of policy and I believe it was Harriman that would negotiate the Limited Test Ban Treaty that came about in August of 1963 based upon this new position.
2. In Kennedy's first press conference upon being sworn in as President he, in the first paragraph, announced the the resumption of American Nuclear testing and introduced John J. McCloy as his chief arms negotiator.
3. In November of 1959 McCloy, at a meeting of the Principle US arms negotiators discussed the international mood that was pressing the State Department to move toward a Limited Test Ban Treaty to be signed at the Paris summit that would take place in May of 1960. It was McCloy's view that this treaty would be detrimental to the security of the United States.
4. The Paris Summit did not take place after the U-2 incident derailed the detente that was moving forward at that time.
5. Lee Harvey Oswald defected to the Soviet Union in October of 1959.
6. Lee Harvey Oswald had been a radar operator who dwelt with U-2 operations and threatened, when he defected to the Soviet Union, to provide information on the U-2 to the Soviets.
7. The passenger list/s for Oswald's flight/s to Helsinki Finland were never provided to the Warren Commission which had as a member John J. McCloy who had cracked the Black Tom case, in part, by making a careful study of the international travel of the primary participants involved in the Black Tom case.
8. Major General Edwin Walker was traveling in Europe at the same time that Oswald was making his mysterious trip to Helsinki
9. Oswald could have gotten to Helsinki by going frome LaHarve to Paris by rail and taking the Paris, Stockholm, Helsinki route. If he would have done so Oswald would have spent less money and arrived in Helsinki one day earlier.
10. On the "extra" travel day where Oswald spent "extra" money, the US Ambassador in Helsinki, John Hickerson, sent a note to the State Department that remained classifiedt till uncovered by the House Select Comm. on Assissinations which state that a traveler could receive a visa into the Soviet Union via the Soviet Embassy in Helsinki within 24 hours if that traveler would first purchase Intourist Vouchers befor applying for their visa. This was the only Soviet Embassy in the world where this could be done and when Oswald showed up at the Soviet Embassy he had already purchased Soviet first class intourist vouchers.
11. G. P. Hemming, whom John Newman in his book "Oswald and the CIA" gives alot of credibility, told me in an email that Walker was in fact part of the insertion team that was used to put Oswald into the Soviet Union.
12. In June of 1959 Richard Helms was meeting with Whitney Shepardson in an effort to collect information about former WWII intelligence assets in and around Helsinki, Finland. This effort led to speculation by Wilho Tikander, former OSS Station Chief (and Dick Helms boss at the time) to speculate that Helms was about to run an off track intelligence operation via Helsinki some time in the near future. When Tikander's speculation was offered it was decided to keep him at arms length from the collection of further information.
13. Whitney Shepardson, along with his associate Dimitri de Mohrenschildt, started Radio Liberty, better known as Radio Free Europe.
14. Dimitri de Mohrenschildt's brother George would befriend Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas, Texas.
15. Whitney Shepardson was a founder of the Council on Foreign Relations and very close associate of John J. McCloy
16. John J. McCloy, as Asst. Sec. of War during WWII, would be in overall control of the development of US Intelligence including the creation of Secret Intelligence (with Whitney Shepardson in control and Richard Helms a part of). This organization and its fuction during and after WWII are only now having light shed upon it.
17. John J. McCloy was receiving intelligence information directly from John B. Hurt during WWII. This information was, for example, used by McCloy to suggest to President Truman that the Japanese would be willing to surrender to the US without the use of the A-Bomb if the US would agree to keep the Japanese Emperor....a condition or term that we ultimately did accept.
18. Lee Harvey Oswald attempted to contact someone named John Hurt while in custody after the assassiantion of JFK and only hours before he himself was killed.
19. Richard Helms was monitoring the movements of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to the assassiation of JFK
20. The Oswald 201 File is all screwed up!
From these fact some speculation based upon fact:
1. Fact: Edwin Walker performed several missions during WWII that John J. McCloy took a particularly keen interest in that included the recovery of the most sophisticated radar machine that the Japanese possesed and the recovery of Nazi Loot from Merker Mine.
2. Walker was positioned to assign the ship Stella Polaris to recover the Finnish Crypto Team that would be the foundation for the Venona Project, one of the most important Cold War Espionage coups of the time. The Venona Project was led by Frank Rowlett and Meridith Gardner who would later be tasked with investigating Lee Harvey Oswald for intelligence contacts.
3. Fact: Both Gardner and Rowlett worked closely with John B. Hurt during WWII.
4. Fact: John B. Hurt's post WWII intelligence work is still classified to this day.
5. Fact: Edwin Walker was repeatedly tasked by General Maxwell Taylor to do some of the most important and sensitive work dealing with National Security, including 2 of the 4 most important issues that Taylor had to deal with as Chief of Staff of the Army during the Eisenhower mission.
6. I speculate that Walker was on a plane with Oswald while he traveled toward Helsinki and would have been the type of trusted person that would have been tasked with making contact with Oswald
7. If true Walker would be one of the few people that would have meet face to face with Oswald and would have recognized him after the assassiation of JFK
8. If true, when Oswald first began his attempt to return to the USA from the Soviet Union a very few people would know that Oswald could identify Walker as the man who had provided the necessary information to enter the Soviet Union
9. If true, the possibility that Oswald, if he provided information that was used by the Soviets to successfully down the U-2 and scuttle the Paris Summit, could identify Walker could compromise US National Security....therefor Walker would have to be discredited, which he was!
10. If Oswald was used by McCloy in the conspiracy to assassinate JFK, Walker may have been the one man that, having met Oswald, could have known exactly who was behind the assassination of JFK and would therefor need to be somehow nutralized. The letter, placed in several easy to find places would be available to be found if Walker somehow decided to blow the whistle on the conspirators.
I have more but my computer time just ran out.....
Jim Root
-
John
Kennedy's American University Speech on June 10, 1963 was a shift in US policy toward nuclear arms negotiations between the Soviets and the United States. Up until that time John J. McCloy had been John F. Kennedy's chief arms negotiator. McCloy had been the first man Kennedy introduced at his very first press conference shortly after being sworn in as President.
McCloy steped asside as Chief Arms negoiator when he disagreed with Kennedy's "new" approach to arms negotiaions in the days preceding the American University Speech.
It is my belief that Kennedy's change of policy in nuclear arms discussions was the trigger point that started the ball rolling toward that dreadful day in Dallas.
I believe that it was not a coincidence that John J. McCloy would write this letter to Maj. General Edwin Anderson Walker on June 12, 1963 and make sure that it would be placed in several locations that would make it easy to discover. If, as Gerald P. Hemming assured me was true, Walker was a part of the team that assisted Oswald to enter the Soviet Union in October 1959. If true the research that I have done, with the help of others on Oswald's travel from London to Helsinki, would explain why the passenger lists for Oswald's air flights have never seen the light of day.....Walker was traveling at the same time in Europe and I believe that I have proven that they could have been on the same flight for at least one leg of the journey.
If the above is true Walker would have recognized Oswald after the assassination and Walker would have known who Oswald was working for. I believe that Walker's actions in the 24 hours following the assasination are consistant with the above scenario. It would have been imparative for any conspirator to nutralize Walker and it is my belief that the letter below was designed to do exactly that.
McCloy sent a two page letter to Walker dated June 12, 1963
My dear General:
I received through the mail the other day a copy of your resignation from the Association of Graduates of the United States Military Academy, prompted by my selection for the Colonel Thayer Award for this year.
You are a graduate of the Academy and for you to resign because a group of graduates duly selected to make an award and did so according to their best judgment, in a manner which resulted in an award to me, seems a rather fantastic expression of your disapproval of what you term "new frontier policy" as contrasted to the traditions of West Point.
Whether my selection was deserved or not, I was very much warmed by it. I was in the regular service in World War I, here and in France. I served as The Assistant Secretary of War during World War II. All during this period and since, I have been closely associated with graduates of the Academy and among them are my warmest friends. I am also very familiar with your very fine record in World War II and in Korea and I had been distressed that a leader of your qualifications should have been lost to the service, whatever the reason.
I have served the country according to my lights and opportunities, just as you have according to yours. I very much doubt that I have ever been less concerned with the security of the country than you.
I was called in form abroad in the Cuban emergency to express my views as to what should be done in regard to the presence of missiles in Cuba. I did so and I think no one misunderstood my position. Thereafter, I was asked to arrange with the Russians for the removal of the missiles. This I did and I also arranged for the removal of the bombers, though they were not part of the original agreement -- both under condidtions far better for the security of the country, in my judgment, than the form of United Nations inspection which was originally contemplated. Apart from this, I have had nothing whatever to do with Cuban policy, either under President Kennedy or General Eisenhhower. I have not been what you term a "New Frontiersman" in the sense that I have been a Republican all my life and I was born in the last century, not this one.
All this is written to you not to justify my selection, in any sense, but to urge you to reconsider your resignation from your own Graduate Association on any account with which I am Concerned. I suggest that you tell whomever you want, as vigourously as you care to, that, in your opinion, I do not deserve the Award, but to sever your relations with the Graduates of West Point on this account, though I recognize in the last analysis it is entirely your own business, does seem to me to be a hasty and perhaps ill-advised action.
Sincerely,
John J. McCloy
Major General Edwin A. Walker
4011 Turtle Creek Boulevard
Dallas 19, Texas
P.S. In the possibility that it might be of some interest to you, I am sending
to you herewith a copy of the remarks I made tot he Cadets at the time of
Award.
Jim Root
-
Karl
I believe it was McCloy who once made the comment that, When it comes to the Constitution of the United States and the security of the United States the Constitution is just another scrap of paper.
Paraphrased and not in quotations.
Jim Root
-
But Jim, you didn't answer my question. Have you read Gibson and does his confirmation of some of your suspicions support your research and contentions?
BK
William
No I have not read either the first or the second of Gibson's books on the assassination. They seem very pricey but I will put them on my list.
I did take the time to scan the Table of contents and to begin reviewing the on line version and would have to say from first glance that while Dr. Gibson comes to a similar conclucsion as myself he does so from conjecture that follows a different trail than I have traveled. Gibson seems to understand that there were forces in play, especially that put the motorcade in front of the TSBD building but seems vague on the mechanics. Can you help me out here?
I am not sure but it seems that he does not name names and seems to skirt the mechanics of how this group of Wall Street Conspirators came together and pulled it off. I believe this is where Gibson and myself may differ the most is in our apporaches that lead to the conclusion that we have, at least in part, in common.
For example Gibson seems to introduce Kennedy's first piece of major legislation as the beginings of the Kennedy attack on Wall Street or the status quo. For myself it is Kennedy's first press conference as President where he anounces the resumption of open air nuclear testing and introduces John J. McCloy as his chief arms negotiator, showing a trump card that I believe ultimately leads to his death in the high stakes game of international politics. McCloy, the Wall Street insider ,would fit well with Gibson's theory and my primary, very small, group of potential conspirators would easily, for the most part, be refered to as Wall Street insiders but within my my scenario there seems to be one other major player at the table, General Maxwell Davenport Taylor, not a Wall Street insider by any means.
While greed is a powerful motivator and could explain Wall Street involvement in the assassination, it is my belief that the greed associated with power may have been an even stronger motivator. Mixed with the belief of a very few "super patriots" that only they understood the dangerous world that we lived in and who were positioned to not just assassinate a President and get away with it, but may have been the group that were positioned to place Kennedy into the position of President in the first place. And I think that Gibson and I might agree that turning against this powerful group may well have led to the dimise of JFK.
Jim Root
-
I was wondering if Jim Root has seen this?
Hi William and Tom
The minutes of, I believe, the first Warren Commission meeting provide the information that Gibson seems to have used for his book. When you read the transcript it is amazing how McCloy manipulate the commission into first considering someone other than whom Warren suggested then, as time goes on, how he was able to manuver his own selection into place. My reading of those early meeting minutes suggested, to this reasearcher that McCloy had a lot more power than is generally understood by the public.
McCloy first became a potential suspect within my research when I uncovered a letter that he had written to Gen. Walker in June of 1963. I believe that I am the first researcher to have uncovered that particular letter and have now located three different copies stored in three different places....all easily accessible to researchers that would have been looking for it...but none seem to have ever followed my particular avenue or approach to this case.
The minutes mentioned above provided a reason to research the relationship between Warren and McCloy further. I was surprised to find that it was a relationship that went back more than 20 years prior to the assassination of JFK. Warren first became associated with McCloy when he was Attn. Gen. of the State of California at the time the relocation of Japanese American's took place shortly after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. There seems to be a good probability that McCloy used his Wall Street influence to raise money for Warren's successful bid for Governor of California and that the influencial Republican McCloy may have been involved in the selection of Warren as the Vice Presidential nominee (next to Wilkie) in the 1948 Presidential election. It also seems to be apparent that McCloy was inovlved in the negotiations with Eisenhower, prior to the 1952 election, to keep Warren out of the Republican primary by promising him the next open seat on the Supreme Court for his support of Eisenhower....as we all know that next seat was for the position of Chief Justice and McCloy seems to have reminded Eisenhower that it would be very unpresidential for him to no keep his promise to Warren (who had no privious experience as a Judge). We then find that Warren followed a social agenda that was very much in line with McCloys beliefs in where he felt the nation should be moving, especially in the area of Civil Rights.
My research seems to indicate that McCloy had a great deal of influence over Earl Warren! And that there may be good reason for that.....
Jim Root
-
Well Edwin Walker was able to "fool the American Public" into thinking that it was Oswald who actually shot at him, so I guess that anything is possible.
Do you consider yourself part of "the American Public" and do you think that Walker may have in
fact pulled the wool over your eyes as well? Just curious.
John
What I do know for certain is that my research into the life of Maj. Gen. Edwin Anderson Walker has led to what I believe is very fertile ground in the search for a plausible conspiracy theory and has allowed me to focus in on names of those that I believe were very well positioned to successfully carry out the assasination of JFK.
In that manner I would have to answer your question with a "NO" because it is my belief by not allowing the Walker story, as told by so many, to not pull the wool over my eyes, I have had the opportunity to dig into areas of research never before entered and have uncovered facts and documents that people in the field of intelligence have reported to me that they had only "an understanding that a document like that existed." I have interviewed numerous historians, to verify my research, and feel that I am on relatively solid ground in the knowledge that I have gained. Does this mean that I could prove my beliefs is a court of law, no I could not. Does it mean that my speculations and the knowledge that I have gained from research into those speculations has led me on a rather curious path....yes it has, oh yes it has!
To continued research and the hope of uncovering the real truth,
Jim Root
-
Robert, or Jim Root:
Was anything else learned after the Dec., 2005 post in this thread?
Tom
I have been following a trail of research for over a decade. Each new piece of information leads to a new search....It's interesting, for every question answered another becomes apparent.
As most reasearchers I stumbled upon the Releigh Call very early in my study of the assassination of JFK. Where I differ perhaps is that my research was originally centered on the life of Maj. Gen. Edwin Anderson Walker. Without going into a long story that researh led me to a place in about 1934 when the paths of Walker and John B. Hurt (later of the NSA) crossed.
This led, of course, to new questions and a search for information on this particular John Hurt.
Fast forward many years and we find the release of documents detailing the NSA background investigation of Lee Harvey Oswald and the two men involved for the NSA, Rowlett and Gardner, were both associates of the same John B. Hurt as was Walker.....Through into the mix that Warren Commissioner John J. McCloy was, during WWII, recieving direct communication from this same John B. Hurt and we start to have a series of coincidences that generate there own questions.
Somewhere along the way, with the help of James Richards, I became aware of the name Wilho Tikander and a WWII intelligence operation known as Stella Polaris....which led to the Venona Project that involved Rowlett and Gardner. It is the research within this context that my limited time has currently centered upon. It has led me to an interesting WWII intellegence organization know as "The Pond" or SI. Depending upon whom you talk to it was headed by one or another person (John "Frenchy" Grombach or Whitney Shepardson). It seems that a member of this WWII organization was Richard Helms, that we find is monitoring the movements of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to the assasination of JFK.
Because of this information and a great deal more that I had gathered I speculated upon whom the Raleigh Call may have actually been made to.
But First:
When I was a Freshman in college I developed a way to call my HS sweetheart back home for little or no money. I would first call her home via the operator making a person to person collect phone call. She would not accept the charges but would go to a local payphone at the end of her block and call a pay phone that was near my dorm. After paying for the first three minutes we would talk for long periods of time........not sure if she ever paid for the additional time beyound the three minutes necessary to put the call through.
Oswald made several "person to person collect" phone calls while in custody...primarily in an attempt to contact Johnathn Abt, the attorney he wished to represent him. The operator made repeated attemts to several numbers in Oswald's attempts to contact this man. In the case of the Raleigh Call it seems that Oswald made no attempt to retreive additional numbers when his collect call (just as my college call) was not accepted. It seems that the operator had anticipated, as was the case in Oswald's attempt to contact Abt, that additional numbers might be requested. I believe that it is logical to assume that when Oswald did not continue his quest to contact Hurt the operator then tossed the additional numbers (numbers that had no meaning except to provide us with the name John Hurt) in the trash.
It seems apparent that the FBI did send out a background search for John Hurt/Heard's without result and we are left with this mystery.
Back to my speculation:
I did speculate upon who may have been the recipiant of Oswald's call and via this speculation found a cache of material that led me to information that proves that in June of 1959 Helms was involved in the collection of information that led Wilho Tikander to speculate that there was an off record intelligence operation that was going to involve Helsinki Finland in the near future. When this speculation is made there is communication within this cache that suggests that Tikander be kept out of the loop. Whitney Shepardson, the main conduit to Helms in the collection of this information was a very close associate of John J. McCloy and of Demitri De Mohrenschildt, brother of George. A few months later, Oswald would enter the Soviet Union via Helsinki. On May 1, 1960 a U-2 spy plane would fall from the sky and the Paris Summit would fail........the Paris Summit was supposed to result in the signing of a Limited Nuclear Test Ban Treaty....it was not signed. John J. McCloy felt that the signing of that particular treaty would have jepordized the security of the United States......
I speculate several things:
John J. McCloy used Lee Harvey Oswald to help him scuttle the Paris Summit
Demitri De Morhrenschildt could have his brother George monitor the movements of Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas until shortly after the assassiantion attempt on the life of Gen. Walker.
John J. McCloy would be very familiar with the psycho file of Lee Harvey Oswald and would understand that if LHO had attempted to kill Walker he would be willing to kill the President if given the opportunity.
John J. McCloy was kept informed of the whereabout of Lee Harvey Oswald via Richard Helms receipt of the monitoring of Oswald's movements
John J. McCloy became aware of exactly where Oswald was working prior to the designation of the motorcade route.
John J. McCloy knew that if Lee Harvey Oswald attempted to make a call to a person, via a cutout, named John Hurt that the wheels of the intellegence community would ralley to eleminate Lee Harvey Oswald
without anyone having to arramge it prior to the assassination of JFK.
John J. McCloy knew that could be placed upon the Warren Commission and be in a position to conceal three vital pieces of information from the public:
A: Oswalds journey from London to Helsinki
B: FBI Agent hosty's third note which provided information about exactly where Lee Harvey Oswald was working
C: Information about Lee Harvey Oswald's attempt to call John Hurt.
It has been an interesting journey of research,
Jim Root
-
Why did the conspirators "give" Oswald such a lousy rifle? Were they stupid?
Kathy C
Kathy
I will answer your question first with some questions:
If the conspirators were so stupid why weren't they caught?
You also seem to accept that they "gave" Oswald the rifle. What if they didn't give him the rifle?
What if they found a man who had a rifle and they began following his movements after they knew that he had attempted to kill another human being with that rifle (Walker incident and yes the FBI and the CIA's Richard Helms began tracking his movements shortly after this incident)?
What if the conspirators were smart enough to know that this man who had aquired a rifle and was willing to use it to kill would be willing to kill the President (Belin note where the CIA forensic Psyco docs say they could have predicted Oswald would kill the President IF they had known that he had shot at Walker)?
What if the conspirators could control where the motorcade route would go and could run it past where Oswald was working, would they then need to coverup the fact that they had that information (FBI Agent Hosty's third note, saying exactly where Oswald was working, that was never put into the Warren Commission Record and has never shown up on any CIA docs list although his other two notes do)?
My suggestion is that the conspirators, if they existed, were not "stupid" at all. Any group of conspirators that did exist were both successful and able to fool the American Public!
Jim Root
-
Jim:
I've been deep into reading everything I can on Bay of Pigs. Am now convinced that it was a Northwoods type setup, but JFK didn't 'bite'. Lots of very angry black Ops and Cuban extremists... didn't just get mad, but got even with Kennedy. Plenty of motive, obvious means and perfect opportunity in Dealey Plaza. Military and Intelligence paybacks, by a select few specialists. Explains the umbrella man and certain 'signs' and signals. Interested in your view, as well as James Richards.
Regards,
Gene
Gene
I believe that the last 45 years have shown that researchers can identify plenty of groups that may have had a reason to be involved in the assassination of JFK. Yet no one has been able to put together a conspiracy theory that can stand the scrutiny of a majority of all researchers and critics. I do believe that my area of research has taken me into a very different avenue than the mainstream conspiracy researchers.....
Without even attempting to rehash the numerous pieces of my puzzle (pieces that seem to create a complete, yet complicated picture) suffice it to say that the conspirators that I beleive may have been responsible for the assassination are the same people that, during WWII, were responsible for convincing the German government and military that the Allied Landings would not take place at Normandy. This particular plan "Fortitude" was complicated but convinced the Germans of an untruth.....It seems to me that the conspirators, if whom I believe they were, would have been capable of convincing the American people of same type of untruths as well! Their ability, and the experience gained in "fooling" the Germans in WWII would have been a necessary ingredient in creating a smoke screen around the assassination of JFK that would keep the actual conspirators hidden.
It is my belief that the greatest feat of the conspirators was not the assassination of JFK, that was the easy part, but in making the public believe that it didn't happen the way that it did. By directing the attention away from Oswald they sealed their own success. This was accomplished by making the American public believe that the only way that a conspiracy could be proved was to find a second assassin. Two shooters equal conspiracy has become the mantra of the assassination community. Unfortunatley I have read so many theories about a second shooter in so many different places and so many support people in so many different places each with some specific roll to play up the identity of, or proof of, a second shooter.
I once attempted to count the number of people necessary to make the many conspiracy theories work and stopped when the number got so high that the mathematical odds of that many people being in place for so many years to keep the game in play and not making a major mistake is to high to allow for the probability to be possible. Within my theory very few people were necessary and one of them was the first person to question the "magic bullet," the foundation of most conspiracy theories. In doing so this person, John J. McCloy, created the "rules" that the conspiracy community has followed, but in my opinion this was his goal and it secured the success of the conspirators in getting away with the removal of a President that McCloy may well have wanted removed.
For months after the Normandy invasion, German troops were held in reserve expecting the real invasion to be launched at the Pais de Calis. Tne Germans were also fooled into keeping over 200,000 troops in Norway believing an invasion of that country to be possible as well. Neither occured, the Germans were deceived and the German's lost the war. For 45 years Americans have searched for a second shooter, they continue to search for a second shooter and the same people who fooled the German's have gone to their graves without ever having been suspected of being behind the assassination of JFK.
Perhaps just wild thoughts on my part.....but I have a whole lot of research that has directed me toward these thoughts....
Hope this helps or gives you some food for thought.
Jim Root
-
John
Perhaps this will shed some light on who the "source" may have been..
"Missing from Oswald's diary is his extensive interview of November 16 with Priscilla Johnson McMillan, a figure who would play a reoccurring role in shaping the written record of the JFK assassination. Johnson was a veteran traveler to Moscow who returned to the Soviet Union for her fourth time on November 15, 1959. Previously she worked as a translator in the US Embassy but now she was returning to Moscow as a reporter for NANA (North American Newspaper Alliance.) The next day, while picking up her mail from the US Embassy she was tipped off by McVicker to the Oswald's presence in the Metropole Hotel. Coincidentally, Johnson's room was one floor above Oswald's. Perhaps less coincidentally, Johnson had extensive contacts with the CIA and had even applied to the agency for employment in 1952 but withdrew her application before she would have been turned down. She was characterized as "screwball, goofy and mixed-up" in the CIA refusal to grant her security clearance at the time of her application. Nevertheless, on May 6, 1958 the CIA's Soviet Russia Division requested "operational approval" to use Johnson for a CIA operation still classified today. Johnson was also debriefed by the CIA on numerous occasions prior and after her meeting with Lee Harvey Oswald." [John Newman, Oswald and the CIA, pp. 61-67.]
The timing seems to be right. Just prior to her departure for Moscow and her immediate introduction to Oswald, if I recall correctly, Priscilla Johnson McMillan went to the offices of Radio Liberty in Paris, which had been ran by Whitney Sheperdsaon and Demitri De Mohrenschildt (brother of George).
Jim Root
-
Good eye Robert
Harrod Miller first came to my attention when James Richards saw his picture with William Friedman's team of cryptologists (outside the "Vault") in association with John B. Hurt. Interesting the connections we make on this Forum.
I believe I can place Harrod Miller, early in his career with John V. "Frenchy" Grombach who, along with Whitney Shepardson were running SI during WWII (otherwise known as "The Pond"). It does not take much to make the connection to Richard Helms (gee, the man monitoring Oswald before the assassination) to SI as well (I have very good documentation here). I have great documentation of Helms, Shepardson and others meeting in June of 1959 while, it seems, planning a mission that would be going through Helsinki in the near future......conjecture yes, but it is fun to speculate that the old SI boyz, no longer with the CIA, are meeting together with Richard Helms, now with the CIA, gathering information for a mission (that may have been off channel) involving a place, Helsinki, where all these men had contacts and Lee Harvey Oswald would soon appear ready to enter the Soviet Union via the only embassy in the world that could grant him a visa within 24 hours. Back in the states, at the same time these meetings involving Helms are occuring, Oswald is receiving an early discharge, applying for his passport and beginning the journey that would bring him to Helsinki.
Coincidence, perhaps but I like the consistancy of the story with everything else that I have gathered.
Jim Root
-
Robert
Once again thank you for the kind words.
In addition to your fine post I would like to add the names and some events surrounding MG Walker that I feel are of importance within my research. By no means complete it will perhaps provide some researches with a differet pasture from which to graze. Each of these people can be associated to Walker throughout his military career and before his (shat I believe to be a sham) Pro Blue troubles.
Gordon Blake, Clifton Carter, Marshal Cartger, Chester Clifton, William Colby, Richard Helms, John Hickerson, John B. Hurt, Thomas Karamessines, John J. McCloy, Gen. t McClure, John M. Sheppard, Maxwell Taylor, Gen. Fredrick Weyland, and Gen Westmorland to name a few.
Walker was also involved in Counter Intelligence, The Greek Civil War, Little Rock, Merker Mine, Stella Polaris, Taiwan Straits Crisis, Korean POW exchange, Soviet POW return, Greman POW return, Venona, Development of Special Forces, Communications Interception, Strategic Planning for the Cold War, Army War College, and the capture of the most sophisticated Japanese Radar Station known to exist at the time.
Interesting man this Edwin Anderson Walker, not your everyday Right Wing Nut IMO!
Jim Root
-
Tom
Nice collection of information.
What must be remembered here is until the 40th year release of documents (2004) information about the CIA receiving copies of FBI memos was not known. Thanks to John Newman's book "Oswald and the CIA" and the information obtained from Jane Roman that resulted from this release of information we now know about Hosty's notes making it to the office of Richard Helms.
To assume that agents such as Hosty et al would have known how the FBI moved information up the intelligence chain cannot IMO be supported and the discipline handed out at the time was nothing more than a CYA move!
In my opinion Oswald was on a CIA "watch list" which is why FBI information about Oswald was forwarded to the CIA. While we may each speculate when that placement was first made it is my suggestion that Oswald was identified and placed on the CIA "watch list" when he wrote his first letter to the Socialist Workers Party. This was done before Oswald enlisted in the Marines!
If I am correct all of Oswald's training and movements would have been watched and reported upon. Newman speculates that Oswald's 201 File was tampered with and, at best, mishandled and probably culled for sensitive material. This speculation by Newman seems to support my story.
Jim Root
-
Greg
You wrote:
"The decision on the parade route was a foregone conclusion since the Host committee was never going to allow the luncheon to be anywhere but the Trade Mart. Look at the connections to the Host committee and see where that leads. Or not."
There were at least three different routes that the motorcade could have taken through the downtown to the Trade Mart. The one choosen was the longest and, along the longest route taken, the last building passed was the TSBD where Oswald worked. The motorcade was then to get on the freeway to backtrack to the Trade Mart, which was about half the distance back toward the airport from where the parade had began.
Jim, the Host Committee was never going to lose the fight with the USSS on the Trade Mart being the site of the luncheon. The TSBD had moved into place on Elm, and the route would take the motorcade past that building. The other routes were not suitable for a vareity of reasons.
Exactly my point, "the other routes were not suitable for a variety of reasons." On at least one of the alternative routes there was construction taking place which quickly eliminated that particular route. As fas as the others they were eliminated, as best I can find because of the time aloted for the motorcade route to reach the Trade Mart. The "time alloted" was not dictated by the host committee but by the arrival time of Airforce One in Dallas which was dictated by the departure time, etc. etc. etc. It was very easy to control the "alloted time" in Washington which would dictate the route, from Washington. We know that factually the route was dictated from Washington and it was dictated after the Hosty note would have been received which stated exactly where Lee Harvey Oswald worked.
Greg even you will not consider that Oswald could be a shooter an essential element necessary to setting Oswald up as a Patsy is that he be in a position, along the motorcade route, where he could be made the Patsy. Even if the Hosty note did make it to the hands of the conspirators and it was Mrs. Paine who prepared the way (Bell Hellicopter, Vietnam and all that scenario) it was still necessary fot the motorcade to run past where Oswald was working.......requiring manipulation by conspirators. My added caveat is that the Warren Commission (McCloy in particular) then did not even take the time to give the Hosty note an Exhibit Number....suggesting that this document needed to disapear.
I continue to believe that the importance of the MISSING Hosty note is twofold. It proves that people in Washington were aware of where Oswald worked and that that note has now disappeared from histoy. We know it existed, we know it was sent and we know it provided to whoever had acces to it exactly where Oswald was working..........it was only after that note had been sent that a route was established that made the last building to be passed, the TSBD, would be the building where Oswald was working.
So Helms got the Dallas Host Committee to choose this route? Can you show how this was done?
I have never suggested that "Helms got the Dallas Host Committee to choose this route" I will suggest that it seems that the overwhelming evidence suggests that the final decission about the motorcade route was made in Washington....this seems to be a fact and I believe if we had access to the Hosty note and could see exactly who had access to the information contained within that note we could show how it was done. As I stated above it seems that the overridding element in the decission was the "time alloted" and that was dictated by the landing in Dallas, which was dictated by the departure, etc., etc., etc. something that was ultimately controllable, I believe, by Maxwell Taylor in his position as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
I must also point out that the Belin note shows that had people known that Oswald had attempted to assassinate General Walker, it could have been predicted that Oswald would kill the President.
Well, you're locked in to believing Oswald was the "perp" in the Walker matter. It's crucial to the path you're on. Walker was directed by an old hand at psyops,- Robert Morris. When reporters arrived at Walker's residence after the "attempt", they reported he started dusting debris out of his hair. Ham acting at it's best.
Apart from that, this "prediction" that Oswald could become an assassin seems all too similar to the phony claim that Hartogs had "found schizophrenic tendencies and said that Oswald was 'potentially dangerous'. in his report at Youth House.
see: http://reopenjfkcase.dockearth.com/?q=node/36
You are right that my research began from a point that began when I learned of the Walker incident. It has been a long path that has taken me in many directions which I find to be very consistant. I apprecitate your questions! This is the reason why I joined this forum to have people question my thoughts and allow me to research further either to defend or discard my theories. At present I hold to the fact that even to this day Marina Oswald still believes that her husband attempted to assassinate Maj. Gen. Edwin Walker. Her reason, "because he told me so."
Greg you state, "your locked in to believing Oswald was the 'perp' in the Walker matter. It's crucial to the path you're on." That was in fact my beginning point some 15 years ago. When I discovered Walker's complete military record the direction that path has taken me has been extrodinary. For example, Walker becoming involved with John Hurt as early as 1934, Walker doing two specific missions for John J. McCloy during WWII, discovering correspondence between McCloy and Walker dated five months prior to the assassination, Walkers close relationship with Max Taylor, Walker traveling in Euorpe at the same time as Oswald and the missing passenger lists from Oswald's travel, speculating on whom Oswald called while in custordy (the Raleigh Call) and uncovering a cache of material that was restricted from researcher for 20 years that shows that in the months prior to Oswald's trip to Helsinki Richard Helms was gathering information for former SI folks, whom Walker had worked with and who were all involved in Operation Stella Polaris which one person then speculated was for an upcomming operation that would go through Helsinki........etc., etc. Yes Greg that path has taken me to many destinations and has helped me to develop a story that is consistant with the facts that we do know and can name names of conspirators who were in posititons to make sure that the "time alloted" for the motorcade route would allow the motorcade to pass the TSBD and that same gourp would include a person that could be positioned to make sure that loose ends, such as the Hosty note, would never see the light of day!
I have shown the connection to George DeM (who according to Marina Oswald guessed that Lee had attempted to kill Walker by the time he visited the Oswald's on April 11)
GDeM also "guessed" that their baby looked like Kruschev.
What GDeM thought Oswald's baby would look like does not diminish the fact that his brother Demitri was involved with the OSS and more importantly SI during WWII and that Demitri was a relatively close associate of John J. McCloy. The fact that GDeM would have speculated that Oswald did shoot at Walker together with the fact that only days later the FBI is then assigned to follow and report upon the movements of LHO does in fact suggest a direct trail to Hosty's third note that I believe was essential for planning the motorcade route that would run right past where Oswald was working.
What can be said with certainty is that Kennedy was shot, Oswald was in the vacinity, the FBI was monitoring the moverments of Oswald prior to the assasination and the motorcade did pass where Oswald was working......all essential elements for the conspirators.....assuming of course that we can prove that there was in fact a conspiracy.
via his brother Demitri and a group of SI operatives that seem to surround the Kennedy assassination. I mean, Richard Helms, Frank Rowlett, Meredith Gardner, John J. McCloy, Edwin Walker himself, even GP Hemming and his interpen group can be connected. Then a note that we know existed has never shown up on any CIA document list......why the coverup??????
My guess is to save embarrassing questions and suspicion. Like yours.
There is probably a more direct link between GDeM and Morris. Morris worked for a law firm on Park Ave that specialised in helping White Russians get out of Europe. This was at the same time that George lived in an apartment on Park Ave with Dmitri - thus begging the question, did Morris help George and/or any family members move to the US? Did they hook up again in Dallas years later?
http://reopenjfkcase.dockearth.com/?q=node/12
You state, "My guess is to save embarrassing questions and suspicion. Like yours." It could be that simple or perhaps it was done to protect the identity of the conspirators......a possibility worth persuing wouldn't you agree?
Jim root
-
Greg
You wrote:
"The decision on the parade route was a foregone conclusion since the Host committee was never going to allow the luncheon to be anywhere but the Trade Mart. Look at the connections to the Host committee and see where that leads. Or not."
There were at least three different routes that the motorcade could have taken through the downtown to the Trade Mart. The one choosen was the longest and, along the longest route taken, the last building passed was the TSBD where Oswald worked. The motorcade was then to get on the freeway to backtrack to the Trade Mart, which was about half the distance back toward the airport from where the parade had began.
I continue to believe that the importance of the MISSING Hosty note is twofold. It proves that people in Washington were aware of where Oswald worked and that that note has now disappeared from histoy. We know it existed, we know it was sent and we know it provided to whoever had acces to it exactly where Oswald was working..........it was only after that note had been sent that a route was established that made the last building to be passed, the TSBD, would be the building where Oswald was working.
I must also point out that the Belin note shows that had people known that Oswald had attempted to assassinate General Walker, it could have been predicted that Oswald would kill the President.
I have shown the connection to George DeM (who according to Marina Oswald guessed that Lee had attempted to kill Walker by the time he visited the Oswald's on April 11) via his brother Demitri and a group of SI operatives that seem to surround the Kennedy assassination. I mean, Richard Helms, Frank Rowlett, Meredith Gardner, John J. McCloy, Edwin Walker himself, even GP Hemming and his interpen group can be connected. Then a note that we know existed has never shown up on any CIA document list......why the coverup??????
Jim root
-
I appreciate your reply, Jim. You may be on to something. However, it does not address my concerns.
How is it that RP looked up the address on Elm St in Oct if the TSBD had only been there since the Summer?
How is it she quickly forgot she had written down the Elm St address?
How is it that in her forgetting about the Elm St address, and thus thinking Oswald worked at the other warehouse, she nevertheless told police she was expecting them when they arrived? Did she think Oswald could hit JFK in Dealey from the other warehouse?
Hosty may have verified Oswald's employment by ringing the TSBD but that does not explain how they got the Elm St address from the phone book in the first place - or why RP was unable to recall that she had already written the Elm St address down from the phone book some weeks earlier.
In my opinion, if the Elm St address is not listed in the then current phone book, then RP and Hosty have some explaining to do.
Greg
Thank you for your reply.
"Two roads in the woods diverge"
Each person will take their research where their path leads them. It seems for you that "RP and Hosty have some explaning to do." For me it seems that the Warren Commision has "some explaining to do." After all, we find that the Hosty testimony destroys several premisses of the final Warren Commission Report. For example Hosty goes into an articulate and detailed rundown of Oswald's political beliefs while the Warren Commission suggests that Oswald is politically confused. Hosty knows exactly on what date Oswald leaves New Orleans, the Warren Commission suggests the day to be one day later. Hosty provides information that can lead us to conclude that information about where Oswald was working made it to the Office Of Richard Helms in the CIA (the same as we know, in fact, that Hosty's other two notes made it to that office) but to this day nobody seems to be able to locate that note or p[ut any signifigance onto that particular note.
Feel free to suggest that the phone number of the Elm St. TSBD may or may not have been in the phone book and what role that would play in this scenario and where that could then lead.
For myself and my research it is important to find in the records and material that we have, that the "Big Fish" would need to have access to information that would locate exactly where Oswald was working prior to the final decissions about the motorcade route------- an essential element in proving conspiracy. The Hosty testimony provides that information with the additional caveat that we can also see where McCloy was either not smart enough (which I doubt) to create an Exhibit Number and have produced this Hosty document or we have a clear indication of McCloy actually assuring that that document would, as is the case, never see the light of day!
To my simple mind this is much more important than how an FBI Agent was able to find a telephone number that it seems that he clearly did find!
Jim Root
-
Tim
When we say "the cover-up" are we making a statement that may mean different things to different people.
When the CIA responded to the Warren Commissions question reguarding Oswald's flight from London to Helsinki with the statement that, There were no direct flights from London to Helsinki, Finland that would have allowed Oswald to arrive in Helsinki, Finland in time to register at the Torni Hotel by midnight on October 10, 1959 when he did in fact register. " We have a truthful statement of fact.
Is it a cover-up when a truthful statemnt is made in answer to a legitimate question? At a minimum I would have to answer perhaps and I lean toward the belief that this is a provable example of an attempt to "cover-up" information that the CIA wished to withold from the Commission/public. Why?
We now know that there were two flights, neither "direct" since each made one stop, that would have allowed Oswald to arrive in Helsinki in time to check into the Torni Hotel. The Commission report goes on to state that Oswald's flight cost him exactly $111.90. This seems to indicate that the flight Oswald took was known to someone but that there was a desire to keep the information about exactly which flight a secrete. The report succeeded in this untill 1994 when the two available flights were uncovered and the records of who was on the available flights had long since been discarded, lost to historians.
My point is that without telling a lie there was the ability to withhold information from the public. If Oswald were, in fact, involved in an intelligence stratagem National Security Council 10/2 and NSC 5412 would mandate a "cover-up" (plausible deniablity).
Nothing more sinister (although very sinister) than that! And those at the highest levels of government could be compelled to accept this logic in the name of "National Security."
The perfect crime?
Jim Root
I have a few serendipitous comments to make myself, and they are all, in one way or another related to information and analysis that has been posted on this thread.....
One of the truly obscure items regarding the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff is that while General Lansdale is seen as being a key person by those who believe that the JFK assassination was a conspiracy, J.F.K. himself seemed to warm up to Lansdale, ironically President Kennedy also wanted to, [and did] meet William Harvey
who was fighting with everyone on a quicker manner of disposing of Castro. Declassified document that mention William Harvey primarily depos of other persons are emphatic that William Harvey was very frustrated at the slow pace that SGA and Maxwell Taylor went with regards to proceeding with more intensity than the pinprick raids that had taken place until the summer of 1963, and President Kennedy definitely felt the same way.
But I definitely feel there is good reason to believe that Harvey was involved in the assassination as well as Lansdale......Regarding Maxwell Taylor, even if he were involved I believe that whatever evidence proving such will not be found in any declassified documents, as they are probably already destroyed.
But the last comment of mine is strictly an opinion.
Some other interesting comments......Whatever the agenda, Harvey soon found himself mired in two colossal messes: the failed Bay of Pigs operation, and then the bungling attempts by the Kennedy Brothers to overthrow the Castro regime, Operation MONGOOSE. Harvey's own tortured niche was described in hearings of the Church committee in 1976: an attempt to use the Chicago gangster Johnny Rosselli to assassinate Castro. This plot, among many others, failed. (The best MONGOOSE read I've encountered is Don Bohning's "The Castro Obsession.")
The last item alone had earmarks of a career-ender. But more painful to Harvey, a veteran field man, was the attempt by Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy to act as grand marshal of MONGOOSE, despite his utter ignorance of covert activities. Old-timers dined out for years on stories of the verbal clashes between the young Kennedy and the rough-hewn Harvey. Dave Murphy, Harvey's long-time colleague in the Berlin Operations Base, quoted his friend as calling the younger Kennedy and his aides "Fifth Avenue cowboys."
Months of bitterness climaxed in October 1962. A MONGOOSE colleague related to Stockton several exchanges in October 1962 -- the day of Harvey's final fall from grace -- in the White House, as the missile crisis simmered. Whether both Kennedys were present, or the attorney general alone, is disputed. But the remarks seem an accurate rendition of Harvey's anger: "We heard that Bobby said to Harvey, 'I could train agents at my house in Virginia!' . . . Harvey retorted, 'as baby-sitters?'"
Harvey was incensed to learn that Bob Kennedy ordered three boats of operatives already enroute to Cuba be recalled. Harvey's view was that they could add valuable intelligence on the Soviet missile sites.
Robert.......While Harvey may have really felt that way, JFK and Bobby certainly had cause to worry about how ALPHA-66, the CRC, JMWAVE operatives and Interpen's actions against Cuba could effect what the "Soviets might do in Berlin," a fact that was seemingly of little or no interest to Kennedy's ideological enemies
And, as was previously written on this thread, while LBJ's rhetoric about a nuclear exchange causing 30 to 40 million casualties, may seem hollow with 45 years of retrospect, that wouldn't have been the case, then or now if there had been a real life version of Seven Day's In May.
Nevertheless, and more to the point, this post concerns something that has not been covered on this thread and that is in relation to the CIA people responsible for Western Hemisphere Station Operations out of Mexico City.......
At what could be considered the nexus of the KGB/CIA interactions prior to the assassination, you will find the acronyms TUMBLEWEED, which was a FBI acronym, if I am not mistaken and AEBURBLE.
John Newman [Oswald and the CIA] certainly is an authority on this area, and in one of his presentations on the OSWALD/CIA book he, at one point mentioned AE/DURBILL as a new acronym. Someone at maryferrell.org posted on the comments section a correction of sorts stating, in effect, that it was really AE/BURBLE and accoring to more than one document, AE BURBLE was someone named Guenther Schulz, although personally I believe it will be proven that the name is actually Guenther Schultz......
Guenther Schulz, is a name that everyone interested in nailing down the rest of the story of 1963, should, at a minimum be aware of, if not trying to ascertain what his job description was, as well as what his title was .
I would suggest possibilities as to variants of his name, and the use of a ü instead of the generic u.......
See
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...o?startIndex=60
Also there is more on this issue here.
more here
The day after the assassination of President Kennedy document 104-10419-10021 noted the following information “Bagley stated that he wished to point out that Kostikov, known KGB agent is the same person who was been in touch with the bureau double-agent Guenther Schulz in the case referred to as TUMBLEWEED provided by Guenther Schulz who is being operated by us against the Soviets."
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=235964
Robert
One of the lead negotiators in the Cuban Missle affair was John J. McCloy and part of McCloy's displeasure with Kennedy after the successful negotiations with the Soviets was that Kennedy did not use that time to complete a Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, instead settleing for a Limited Test Ban Treaty. I have read that part of the negotiations with the Soviets included a guarentee of security to Castro's Cuba, i.e. no invasion. The continuation and control of MONGOOSED given to Robert Kennedy could have been interpreted by McCloy as a violation of the agreement that had been reached with the Soviets. McCloy had been involved for since before the end of WWII in a "special arrangement" with the Soviets to insure that the world would never engage in a WWIII or nuclear holocaust. I might suggest that a violation of this singular arrangement may have set the course/ball moving toward the elimination of Kennedy.
June 1963!
Jim Root
-
Mr. HOSTY: I asked her if she knew where he worked. After a moment's hesitation, she told me that he worked at the Texas School Book Depository near the downtown area of Dallas. She didn't have the exact address, and it is my recollection that we went to the phone book and looked it up, found it to be 411 Elm Street.
Mr. STERN. You looked it up while you were there?
Mr. HOSTY. Yes; that is my recollection that we looked it up in her telephone book to show it at 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Tex.
--------------------
Mr. JENNER. Did you give him the telephone number and the address of the Texas School Book Depository on the occasion when you talked to him, this is Texas School Book Depository on the occasion when you talked to him, this is the 14th?
Mrs. PAINE. The address, I don’t think so. I probably gave the phone number. I don’t recall that I gave him an address.
Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to your address book, you have an entry in your address book of the Texas School Depository, do you not? Would you turn to that page?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes ; I have it here.
Mr. JENNER. Is there an entry of address of the Texas School Depository on that page?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; which I believe I made after he gained employment there.
Mr. JENNER. Rather than at the time that you advised him of this possibility?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed.
Mr. JENNER. Have you made an entry of the telephone number of the Texas
School Book Depository on that date?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have and of the address.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the telephone number and the address of the Texas School Depository Building where---
------------------------------------
Mr. JENNER. I heard you mention the Texas School Depository warehouse. Did you think the warehouse was at 411 Elm?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I had seen a sign on a building as I went along one of the limited access highways that leads into Dallas, saying “Texas School Book Depository Warehouse” and there was the only building that had registered on my consciousness as being Texas School Book Depository. I was not aware, hadn’t taken in the idea of there being two buildings and
that there was one on Elm, though, I copied the address from the telephone book, and could well have made that notation in my mind but I didn’t. The first I realized that there was a building on Elm was when I heard on the television on the morning of the 22d of November that a shot had been Fired from such a building.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of this record then I would like to emphasize you were under the impression then, were you, that Lee Harvey Oswald was employed?
Mrs. PAINE. At the warehouse.
Mr. JENNER. Other than at 411, a place at 411 Elm?
Mrs. PAINE. I thought he worked at the warehouse. I had in fact, pointed out the building to my children going into Dallas later after he had gained employment.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with Lee Harvey Oswald where he actually was employed, that is the location of the building?
Mrs. PAINE. No: I didn’t.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever mention it?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER There never was any discussion between you and, say, young Mr. Frazier or Mrs. Randle or anyone in the neighborhood as to where the place of employment is located?
Mrs. PAINE. No. It may be significant here to say, my letter to which I have
already referred-
--------------------------------
Clearly, Jenner had concerns over who knew what and when about the location of the TSBD.
In essence, RP seems to be saying after Oswald obtained his job, she wrote the address down after looking it up in the phone book, but then forgot that she had done so - and was still under the impression that he worked at the other warehouse on the day of the assassination. But if so, why was she so concerned about Oswald possibly being involved when she heard that the sniper had been in the Elm St building?
But back-tracking to the Hosty-RP discussion... due to her lack of recall on the address, and forgetting that she had already looked it up in the phone book, she and Hosty (for her part, again) referred to the directory - assuming we can take both testimonies on face value...
---------------------------------
Is it possible for some one to check the directory that was current at that time?
We know from Nat Pinkston's interview with Roy Trulyon 11/23/63 that the TSBD only moved into the Elm St address during that Summer. It hardly seems possible then that it could have been listed in time...
Greg
The answer to your question is in the Hosty testimony:
"Mr. HOSTY. On Monday morning, I made a pretext telephone call to the Texas School Book Depository, I called up and asked for the personnel department, asked if a Lee Oswald was employed there. They said yes, he was. I said what address does he show? They said 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., which I knew not to be his correct address.
I then sent a communication, airmail communication to the New Orleans office advising them--and to the headquarters of the FBI advising them--and then instructing the New Orleans office to make the Dallas office the office of origin. We were now assuming control, because he had now been verified in our division."
Hosty did verify where Oswald was working by calling the TSBD and speaking with the "personnel department."
Hosty then sent this information on to Washington and it is this note that is missing!
This is not rocket science! Prior to the final determination of the designation of the motorcade route person/s in Washington were privy to exactly where Lee Harvey Oswald was working. The Warren Commissioners were aware of this information and questioned Hosty about it extensively making it very clear that this third note was sent and that Oswald's place of employment was known. Those same Commissioners then FAILED to make this Hosty note a Commission Exhibit although they did make (CE430) the floor plan of the house where RP lived and where Hosty parked when he gathered this information a Commission exhibit. This is either an example of gross negligence on the part of the Commissioners or an intentional attempt to make sure that the Hosty note number three would never be examined and it would never be known who had viewed this information.
While many people go to great lengths to speculate on how Oswald got his job at the TSBD and who (of those who may have had a hand, seen or unseen in Oswald's successful job search) therefore was involved in the conspiracy (opening doors to a myriad of potential conspirators) we have here an example of how the information about Oswald's work location was obtained and forwarded to person/s in the highest echelons of the intelligence community and how that information was not only not followed up on but was actually kept out of the official record, as far as the assignment of a Commission Exhibit Number and the production of the document for the record. We also know that to this day the CIA has never admitted that a copy of this Hosty note was received although we have proof positive that Hosty's previous two notes were received into the office of Richard Helms at the CIA.
If you accept the possibility of Oswald being a shooter or being nothing more than a Patsy a requirement of any conspiracy theory IS pre knowledge of where Oswald was working.
We have proof positive that this information was available to potential conspirators within th egovernment and we have proof positive that the (or certain) Warren Commissioners FAILED to insure that this infomation was properly followed up on, evaluated or preserved within the record!
I submit that while most conspiracy buffs want to prove that Oswald was not a shooter in order to prove conspiracy that perhaps something as simple as this item within the record could go along way toward doing the same thing without much controversy......because what occured in this instance is proveable beyond a doubt!
Jim Root
-
Thank you Robert and Jim.
Could this be it?
There doesn't seem to be a date, but it mentions relevant stuff.
CE - 1809
PDF] <H3 class=r>Warren Commission, Volume XXIII: CE 1809 - FBI report of ... ?</H3>File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
4,. 1963, Dallas Confidential Informant. T-1 advised that in March, 1963 ROBERT L . OSWALD of 7313 .... On November 1, 1963, Mrs . RUTH PAINE, 2515 West Fifth ... HOSTY, JR . and GARB' S . WILSON that she had not been able to obtain ...
www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/pdf/WH23_CE_1809.pdf
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...H23_CE_1809.pdf
William
Nice try. Clearly not the one since it references November 5, 1963 and the third note in question was sent on November 4, 1963.
Don't you find it strange that both Dulles and McCloy, both trained attorneys, trained in spycraft and trained in political intrique, would miss an opportunity to access a message that provided the exact location of where Oswald was working (a building which would become the final building passed along the motorcade route before backtracking to the Trade Mart lucheon) and would show exactly who had had access to that same message.
I will suggest right here, once again, this IS the coverup!!!!!
Jim Root
-
In attempting to answer a William Kelly question about James Patrick Hosty I ran accross this quote in his testimony:
"Mr. HOSTY. On October 3, 1963, I received a communication from our New Orleans office advising that Lee Oswald and his wife Marina Oswald had left the New Orleans area a short time before. According to the communication, Marina Oswald, who was at that time 8 months pregnant, had left New Orleans with her small child, 2-year-old child, in a station wagon with a Texas license plate driven by a woman who could speak the Russian language. Lee Oswald had remained behind and then disappeared the next day. I was requested to attempt to locate Lee and Marina Oswald."
This would suggest that the FBI was clearly aware that Oswald had left New Orleans on September 24, 1963 not as the Warren Commission Report implies that Oswald could not have left before September 25th.
Was there an attempt to discredit the Odio testimony? Why would that be necessary?
I can suggest some answers that are consistant with each area (Flight from London to Helsinki, Hosty's 3rd note, Raleigh Call) of information left out of the Warren Commission Report.
Jim Root
-
In another thread Jim Root wrote:
An area of my research that I felt that he was not well informed upon was FBI Agent James P. Hosty's third note (the one that identified exactly where Lee Harvey Oswald was working some 18 days before the assassination and prior to the final motorcade route being decided upon. As you may recall I have posted several times my reasons for feeling that this note is of particular significance for two reasons:
1. Hosty's third note would prove that persons at the highest levels of intelligence had access to information which allowed them to know exactly where Oswald was working prior to the final motorcade route designation was made (Newman's work, Oswald and the CIA, shows that Richard Helms did in fact receive Hosty's previous two notes and we have no reason to believe that he would not have received the third)
2. The fact that this Hosty note has never appeared on ANY CIA documents list suggests that it was destroyed or eliminated for some reason. The obvious reason would be that the tracking of that particular document would lead directly to all that had knowledge of where Oswald was working and may in fact point directly to the conspirator/s involved.
While there are many other aspects of this case that I would love to rehash once again with Mr. McKnight a discussion on the significance of this particular note (Hosty's third which is mentioned in the testimony of Hosty) would be my first topic of discussion.
I too would like to know more about this third note.
Is there really no record of it?
Jim, Can you site the reference where Hosty mentions this?
Thanks,
BK
William
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/hosty.htm
Testimony Of James Patrick Hosty, Jr.
Some of the interesting aspects when discussing Hosty's third note:
"Mr. STERN. It is true, isn't it, that some of this information had already been----
Mr. HOSTY. Transmitted in letter form to New Orleans; right.
Mr. DULLES. Prior to the assassination?
Mr. HOSTY. Prior to the assassination; yes, sir.
Representative FORD. That part on the second page?
Mr. HOSTY. Right; this second paragraph starting, "On November 1, 1963, Mrs. Ruth Paine"
Representative FORD. What did you do, dictate that to a stenographer?
Mr. HOSTY. Right.
Representative FORD. And she typed it and it was sent officially?
Mr. HOSTY. On the 4th of November, right, airmail letter to New Orleans.
Mr. STERN. Would that be sent to your headquarters in Washington?
Mr. HOSTY. Also. Excuse me, the original goes to headquarters in Washington, a copy goes to New Orleans. It is addressed to the headquarters.
Mr. STERN. But the only information sent was the information in that paragraph beginning "On November 1, 1963."
Mr. McCLOY. But you had your original notes with you?
Mr. HOSTY. Right.
Mr. McCLOY. And still intact?
Mr. HOSTY. Right.
Mr. McCLOY. At the time you put this----
Mr. HOSTY. Because I knew I was going to get this into a report. The next report was written, and I would put it in a report form and destroy the notes.
Mr. DULLES. Do we have a copy of that letter of November 4?
Mr. HOSTY. I don't know.
Mr. DULLES. That you sent to headquarters and to New Orleans?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. STERN. You tell us you have reviewed these two pages?
Mr. HOSTY. Yes.
Mr. STERN. Is there anything you would like to add?
Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.
Mr. STERN. Anything you would like to correct?
Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.
Mr. STERN. This accurately states the interviews that you covered. May this be admitted in the record?
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted, No. 830."
In this segment you see that Dulles jumps in and wants to know if if the Commission has a copy of this third note. The Commission then "goes off the record" changes the subject and no Exhibit Number or request for a copy of this important note is made!
Once again we find:
"Mr. HOSTY. Let me see. Part of it would have, this paragraph on page 11, this November 1, Mrs. Ruth Paine was interviewed. This appeared in the communication I sent out to the New Orleans office advising them where he (Oswald)was employed.
Mr. DULLES. When was that sent?
Mr. HOSTY. The 4th of November, sir. The rest of it was in note form. I hadn't reduced it to writing yet."
And:
"Mr. STERN. Now, tell us in detail of your interview with Mrs. Paine starting from the time you rang the doorbell.
Mr. HOSTY. All right. As I say, when I entered the house I immediately identified myself. I showed her my credentials, identified myself as a special agent of the FBI, and requested to talk to her. She invited me into the house.
Mr. STERN. Did she seemed surprised at your visit?
Mr. HOSTY. No, she didn't. She was quite friendly and invited me in, said this is the first time she had ever met an FBI agent. Very cordial.
As I say, it is my recollection I sat here on the couch and she sat across the room from me.
I then told her the purpose of my visit, that I was interested in locating the whereabouts of Lee Oswald.
She readily admitted that Mrs. Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald's two children were staying with her. She said that Lee Oswald was living somewhere in Dallas. She didn't know where. She said it was in the Oak Cliff area but she didn't have his address.
I asked her if she knew where he worked. After a moment's hesitation, she told me that he worked at the Texas School Book Depository near the downtown area of Dallas. She didn't have the exact address, and it is my recollection that we went to the phone book and looked it up, found it to be 411 Elm Street.
Mr. STERN. You looked it up while you were there? Mr. HOSTY. Yes; that is my recollection that we looked it up in her telephone book to show it at 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Tex.
She told me at this time that she did not know where he was living, but she thought she could find out and she would let me know. "
Was Washington always made aware of the infromation:
"Mr. DULLES. Just one question. Are cases of this kind administratively transferred by agreement between two offices, or does that have to go up to Washington?
Mr. HOSTY. Washington always gets a copy of these communications. They know what we are doing. Actually the original is sent to Washington, and a carbon is sent to the other field office.
Mr. DULLES. But you can transfer it directly from one office to another?
Mr. HOSTY. Right.
Mr. DULLES. And just notify Washington as to the Possibility of its being transferred?
Mr. HOSTY. Right; because he is now residing and employed in our division. There is no more needs to be done.
Mr. DULLES. I am clear. Thank you very much."
Hope this helps
Jim Root
-
Trying to bring this back on track some thoughts from Vincent Bugliosi:
"I would come to believe after the London trial that the very remote possibility of anti-Castro Cuban exiles being involved with Oswald in the assassination, even if in the most tangential of ways, was the only conspiracy possibility in the entire case that had any merit." Reclaiming History Pg 1335
"...I feel that the slight preponderance of evidence is that Oswald was, in fact, the American among the three men who visited Odio. I say that for several reasons. One is that there is, as trial lawyers like to say, that unmistakable 'ring of truth' to Odio's tetimony." Reclaiming History Pg 1309
"Although we have seen that the evidence of time and place compels the conclusion that Oswald could not have visited Odio on September 26 or 27, 1963, and most probably did not do so on September 25, there nevertheless are countervailing reasons why we cannot automatically dismiss Odio's allegations---namely, her credibility and corroborating evidence." Reclaiming History Pg 1307
"The HSCA, after a thorough evaluation of all the evidence, stated that 'the committee was inclined to believe Sylvia Odio' to the extent that 'three men did visit her apartment in Dallas prior to the Kennedy assassination and identified themselves as members of an anti-Castro organization,' and that 'one of these men at least looked like Lee harvey Oswald and was introduced to Mrs. Odio as Leon Oswald." Reclaiming History Pg 1308
"The likelihood is that the event Odio described did, in fact, take place, most probably on the evening of September 24 or 25, 1963. In an April 28, 1964, letter to J. Edgar Hoover, Rankin, general counsel for the Warren Commission, wrote that 'the only time (oswald) could have been in odio's apartment appears to be the nights of September 24 or 25, 1963, most likely the latter.'
"With respect to September 24, teh Warrren Commission concluded that t'under normal procedue' Oswald could not have received his Tesas unemployment compensation check in New Orleans, which was dated and mailed on Monday, September 23, 1963, before 5:00 am on September 25, 1963, a Wednesday. However, marina told the FBI that Oswald received his unemployment check ever Tuesday. In fact, the Warren Commission itself sadi that Oswald cashed the previous week's check at the Dixie Store in New Orleans on Tuesday, September 17, 1963. If, then, Oswald had received his next check on Tuesday, September 24, it's possible he cashed it at the Winn-Dixie Store between 8:00 am and 1:00 pm on that day, not, as believed, the following day, Wednesday, September 25."
Reclaiming History Pg 1310
"In fact, Marina told the Warren Commission that Oswald told her he intended to leave New Orleans the very next day after her departure on September 23, 2963, that is, September 24."
Reclaiming History Pg 1311
"This September 24, 1963, scenario would also be compatible with Mrs. Twiford's belief that she sensed Oswald was calling her 'from the Houston area,' somewhere 'between seven and ten o'clock' in the evening. (If Oswald and teh Cubans were at odio's door on September 25, however, since the incident took place at 9:00 pm in Dallas, he could not have called Twiford fromt eh Houston area that evening)." Reclaiming History Pg 1311
"Since the weight of the evidence in the Odio case is that the event Odio described did, in fact, take place, the countervailing evidence prompting the inference that her story is not believable should yield. it yeilds in this case, in my view, by accepting the probability that the seemingly airtight case the Warren Commission fairly and effectively constructed against Odio's story is somewhere defective, be it in teh documentary evidence (e.g. as to the earliest time oswald could have received his unemployment check in New Orleans) or the recollection of witnesses as to the dates and times they saw or spoke to Oswald (e.g. the affidavit of Mr. and Mrs. Mcfarland and Mrs. Twiford, etc) which would not be uncommon at all." Reclaiming History Pg 1311
"The very absence of any witness or record that oswald used commercial transportation out of New Orleans is itself at least some circumstantial evidence that he did not do so and goes in the direction of supporting the conclusion that Oswald left New Orleans with the two Latins, and was at Odio's door on teh evening of September 24 or 25, 1963." Reclaiming History Pg 1312
"Among others, Wesley Liebler, who examined her for the Warren Commission, said, 'I think Odio believes that Oswald was there. I do not think she would lie about something like that.' Assistant Counsel W. David Slawson, whose area of investigation for the Warren Commission was the psooibility of a conspiracy in the assassination, wrote in his report to the Commission that, 'Mrs. Odio has been checked out thoroughly through her psychiatrist and friends, and, with one exception - a layman not identified who speculates that she may have subconcious tendencies to over-dramitize or exaggerate-the evidence is unanimously favorable, both as to her character and reliability and as to her intelligence.'....a Warren Commission staff reprt noted that 'Doctor Burton Einspruch(Odio's psychiatrist) stated thathe had great faith in Miss odio's stroy of having met Lee Harvey Oswald,' believing the story to be 'completely true." Reclaiming History Pg. 1307
And finally
"...W. David Slawson and William Coleman, assistant counsels for the Warren Commission whose area of investigation was foreign conspiracy...In a June 1964 memorandum to the Commission titled 'Oswald's Foreign Activities: summary of Evidence Which Might Be Said to Show That Ther Was Foreign Involvement in the Assassination of President Kennedy,' they postulated a scenario that might consitute a conspiracy in a low school examination, but might fall short of a chargeable conspiracy in the real world. They wrote that anti-Castro Cubans in New Orleans. aware of Oswald's pro-Castro sympathies, and realizing that if anything happened the public at large would also learn of them, and perhaps sensing Oswald's prechant for violence, 'encouraged' Oswald to kill the predident when he came to Dallas, perhaps even deceiving him into believing thaey misgh assist him afterward in his excape." Reclaiming History Pg. 1315
In my story someone had to have given Oswald a telephone number in Raliegh, North Carolina. Oswald himself told his brother that he had "friends." I was surprised to find that two assisstant counsels for the Warren Commission could suggest that which I believe to be the case. If as some believe, Hemming, Collins, Torres, et al were involved in the Odio case, then it would be intelligence cells closely linked to the same group that I have suggested may have conspired to kill Kenndy.
Did these men provide Oswald with a phone number in Raliegh, NC and did they suggest he ask for John Hurt?
If so I can once again tighten my noose.
Jim Root
-
Hi Antti
Walker was traveling by plane into Shreveport, LA at the time of the assassination. Apparently he announced who he was to the passengers and had the pilot sign his ticket after the annoucnement of the assassination had been made. Walker would stay at the the Captain Shreve Hotel where, at 7:00am the following morning he would conduct the first of two interviews with a German publication that would break the Oswald/Wallker shooting story.
Jim Root
-
Hi John
A year or so ago I had the opportunity to have a few exchanges with Mr. McKnight. He was both cordial and infomative in his responses and I appreciated the contact he put me in touch with. I might add that he was also very complimetary of you at that time as well.
An area of my research that I felt that he was not well informed upon was FBI Agent James P. Hosty's third note (the one that identified exactly where Lee Harvey Oswald was working some 18 days before the assassination and prior to the final motorcade route being decided upon. As you may recall I have posted several times my reasons for feeling that this note is of particular significance for two reasons:
1. Hosty's third note would prove that persons at the highest levels of intelligence had access to information which allowed them to know exactly where Oswald was working prior to the final motorcade route designation was made (Newman's work, Oswald and the CIA, shows that Richard Helms did in fact receive Hosty's previous two notes and we have no reason to believe that he would not have received the third)
2. The fact that this Hosty note has never appeared on ANY CIA documents list suggests that it was destroyed or eliminated for some reason. The obvious reason would be that the tracking of that particular document would lead directly to all that had knowledge of where Oswald was working and may in fact point directly to the conspirator/s involved.
While there are many other aspects of this case that I would love to rehash once again with Mr. McKnight a discussion on the significance of this particular note (Hosty's third which is mentioned in the testimony of Hosty) would be my first topic of discussion.
Jim Root
Eugene Rostow
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Within my theory of the assassination it would be important for any conspirators to be able to cover up any potentially damning information that could lead inquiring minds to those same conspirators.
As I understand it Eugene V. Rostow, Dean of the Yale School of Law, was the first to suggest that the Federal Government take the lead in the investigation of the assination of John F. Kennedy. I also believe that the record shows that John J. McCloy played a very "strong" role in guiding that investigation.
A quick glance at Eugene Rostow's career shows that the first position that he held as a lawyer was for the same firm that John J. McCloy was working for, Cravath, deGersdorff, Swaine and Wood.
While a member of the Kennedy Administration John J. McCloy drafted a bill that led to the establishment of the US Arms Control and Disarmament Agency. As I understand it, in 1981, with a push from McCloy, President Ronald Reagan appointed Eugene Rostow director of the Arms Control and Disarmament Agency, making Rostow the highest-ranking Democrat in the Reagan administration.
While Eugen Rostow and McCloy did differ over Japanese Internment during WWII, overall the Rostow brothers and McCloy seem to have had a very close (and long term) working relationship.
It seems possible to me that having a distinguished person such as Eugene Rostow pushing for the creation of a "Warren" type commission could have been influenced by like minded persons such as John J. McCloy who did have a current and future relationship with Rostow. Since my theory suggests that the assassination may have been planned as a result of John F. Kennedy's change of direction in nuclear talks with the Soviets it seems interesting that the man who suggested the creation of the "Warren" type commission would be selected to continue McCloy's work in the field of Arms Control.
Jim Root