Nic Martin
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Posts posted by Nic Martin
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"Jackie's Strength" by Tori Amos references it, as well as "Jackie O" by Strung Out, "The Motorcade Sped On" by Steinski & Mass Media contains several original news clips. "Jackie O" by The McCarthys references JFK's assassination.
"Bobby Kennedy" by Black 47 references the JFK & RFK assassinations.
Marilyn Manson's albums seem to reference the Kennedys quite often, as well - in the most bizzarre ways. "She's got eyes like Zapruder" was one lyric, I think.
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There are certain things I understand why the museum did. For instance, the Zapruder film. Quite frankly, it's gruesome. I know hardened war veterans that wince when they see it. I don't want the President's head blowing up every six seconds on a loop. He's dead, we all know it, we all know he was shot in the head - and when I was there, the museum sold "Image of an Assassination" on DVD & VHS for those who were still morbidly curious.
And, since it is a MUSEUM, facts ARE important - and thus, I understand why books with pet theories aren't sold. People expect things that have been historian-approved when they buy something from an institution such as a museum. Hell, I refuse to buy a history book unless I've checked reviews of it bringing up whether it's accurate or not. The JFK case is flooded with misinformation, from people who think there REALLY WAS a man named Willie O'Keefe to people who think the "X" is right-on-target on Elm Street. We don't need anymore silly people thinking they know everything after reading one book they BELIEVE is accurate because they bought it at a trusted source. It's just drama and a waste of everybody's time.
Yes, the caption on the window should be changed, but really - what else is the Museum doing wrong here?
Thank you very much -- I'll file your concern for how I understand Dallas history, someplace!
"...I understand why books with pet theories aren't sold..." What's that Single Bullet Theory called, again?
Blood and guts on display, that's a problem in TEXAS? Surely you jest, Nic.
I more classify "pet theories" along the lines of.. Walt Disney's cryogenically frozen head shot JFK from a UFO with a raygun. Not a theory widely published, even if it's disregarded by myself and the vast majority of researchers. An institution based on fact can't just sell any LSD-induced nonsense.
And actually, although Texas is a "red" state for more than one reason, museums should be done with taste. There's no need to constantly replay a murder for shock value. It's classless. Just like I think it's classless that the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library features a diorama of the Ford Theater with Booth sneaking in in the background. We know Lincoln and Kennedy were shot in the head, and we know they're dead, and we know that's how the story ends. Just because the Sixth Floor Museum is on site doesn't mean it has a right to be disrespectful. President dead, we got it. It's the precise reason I don't want Jackie's pink suit displayed for the world to see. It was a man's life and a family's tragedy before it was your research hobby.
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"Unsolved History" is a series, they've also done one on the Alamo, etc. It's one of the better documentaries on the RFK assassinaton, I think, but I'm working on a big post that's going to reference that "pushed into Sirhan" theory.
The Unsolved History recreations of the SBT in Beyond the Magic Bullet were horribly deceptive It sounds like the RFK re-creation was a bit more honest, in that it showed that Cesar could have gotten away with it. Researcher John Hunt (a member of this forum) re-created part of the shooting in Dallas at the Lancer Conference...John Simkin was RFK and I was Paul Schrade. Hunt made a convincing case that at least one of the shots had a different trajectory than was proposed by Noguchi.
I have a ton of newspapers from at the time that have some very interesting information, but I've been so busy with school, I've barely had time to dig them all out - let alone type them all up. But it's pretty interesting, the news THEN and what the official story is NOW, all these years later.
That's one great thing about old newspapers & magazines - it was in a Saturday Evening Post when I first heard that there was more bullet fragments in Connally's leg than were missing from the magic bullet.
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There are certain things I understand why the museum did. For instance, the Zapruder film. Quite frankly, it's gruesome. I know hardened war veterans that wince when they see it. I don't want the President's head blowing up every six seconds on a loop. He's dead, we all know it, we all know he was shot in the head - and when I was there, the museum sold "Image of an Assassination" on DVD & VHS for those who were still morbidly curious.
And, since it is a MUSEUM, facts ARE important - and thus, I understand why books with pet theories aren't sold. People expect things that have been historian-approved when they buy something from an institution such as a museum. Hell, I refuse to buy a history book unless I've checked reviews of it bringing up whether it's accurate or not. The JFK case is flooded with misinformation, from people who think there REALLY WAS a man named Willie O'Keefe to people who think the "X" is right-on-target on Elm Street. We don't need anymore silly people thinking they know everything after reading one book they BELIEVE is accurate because they bought it at a trusted source. It's just drama and a waste of everybody's time.
Yes, the caption on the window should be changed, but really - what else is the Museum doing wrong here?
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Last I heard, he was taking his toys to another sandbox because he didn't like Mr. Simkin's policies - or was it that he thought the government was the cause of the last major forum blackout?
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"Unsolved History" is a series, they've also done one on the Alamo, etc. It's one of the better documentaries on the RFK assassinaton, I think, but I'm working on a big post that's going to reference that "pushed into Sirhan" theory.
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As moving as this is, Kennedy would have been killed whether Hill had gotten there or not, it'd just have been in the hospital or while giving a speech. They wouldn't have let him finish his administration.
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The reason Tim started this thread, I believe, was a shoot-off of my thread asking for questions to ask living witnesses. Thanks to a source, I came into Marina's address & phone number, and wanted to be sure I asked everything I wanted to know.
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For the record, John Jr's friend Robert Littell comments in his book that, when another rumor perked up about John running for President on TV, Littell laughed, then looked at John Jr who paused and then said, "You've gotta go home someday, right?"
Maybe he'd have run, maybe not. We'll never know now, so no point in arguing it.
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I think both Clinton & Bush could have done more. Personally, I think all the way back to Carter, we should have been on the look out for something like this, and paid attention to every hint of a credible threat. I think we got really arrogant. I think we thought that nobody could hurt us, that nothing like 9/11 would happen because we're the all-powerful America.
2,000 American soldiers are dead, and that number will rise significantly before this war is over, which is a shame - no parent should have to bury their child, and no child should have to grow up alone. For perspective, Saddam Hussein, in 1982 alone, had 160 people executed, and over 1500 tortured. Think of how high the total numbers must be, from 1979 - 2003. How much pain that one man inflicted. Was the war a lie? Yes. Does it mean those 2,000 American deaths are that much more tragic? Yes. However, Saddam's out of power - and that is a victory as far as I'm concerned.
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Does anyone think it's possible that the real reason behind Tenet's resignation was related to this?
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Nic wrote:
Besides, if I was married to someone that looked like Ethel, I'd want Marilyn Monroe too. Even though she wasn't very "clean" when it came to personal hygiene.
Interesting that a supposed feminist defender of abortion would chose to make such a cruel remark about Mrs. Kennedy's personal appearence.
Given their progency, Bobby must have found his wife of some interest, Nic.
Nic also wrote:
Anyway.. I don't think RFK had it in him to organize a murder, let alone of someone that wouldn't even matter in the grand scope of things.
Not sure what she means by "had it in him to organize a murder"? Was he intelligent enough to organize a murder? I think his intelligence is apparent.
If she means his moral and/or religious principles would prevent him from condoining a murder, I would like to think that is true, and from what I understand RFK's Catholocism was real to him. However, one should remember the truism that "desperate men do desperate things". An affair prevented Hart from obtaining the Democratic nomination even years later in much more "liberal" times. Proof of a Kennedy affair with Monroe would have destroyed the Kennedys politically, of that there can be little doubt.
Tim, if you found it in your head to make one comment without whining about my pro-choice stance, I'd die of shock at the ripe age of eighteen. Also, I'm not a feminist, nor have I ever claimed to be. I'm a girly-girl (high-end makeup, Victoria's Secret, and handbags), but I'm no-nonsense. Quite ignorant of you to assume that because I speak my mind, I have to be some bra-burning neo-nazi out to get your balls locked in an iron vice. Cute how, when you speak your mind, you want RESPECT - yet refuse to respect me for doing the same. Misogyny doesn't suit anyone well.
Considering your inability to pick up on the slightest attempt at humor, the second part isn't even worth replying to.
Regarding the third, RFK was CERTAINLY intelligent enough - which is part of my point exactly. I don't think the Attorney General of the U.S., brother to the President, would be stupid enough to be caught with his pants down in regards to the Monroe affair. Don't you think, if he HAD been involved, he'd have been able to pay someone off? Bobby certainly was the most honest of the Kennedy men, and I highly doubt he'd have been able to live with himself if he'd gotten her killed.
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You "choose not to speculate," yet you are speculating about the alteration of the Z-film? It hasn't been proved by official reports, so.. Your whole post boils down to, "I'm a hypocrite."
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I disagree respectfully with John here. My belief is that MM was killed by Giancana's men on request of both Kennedy's as she was pregnant with JFK and refused the abortion, unlike Judyth Exner a while before.
I'm sorry if this is a blow to the Kennedy admirers. It was to me.
Wim
Er.. Reportedly, Marilyn had at least two previous abortions of cells with Kennedy DNA, why would she suddenly refuse one abortion? What was so special about that ONE time? Also, Marilyn had endometriosis - meaning it was extremely difficult to get pregnant, or to carry a child to term ( note her large number of miscarriages ). Also, Momo wasn't very fond of the Kennedys in 1962 - yet he does this gigantic favor for them and doesn't turn it against them?
So basically, no truth to that, at all. As usual when it comes to the Files-Brigade. I'm beginning to think actual truth is a fear of yours.
Anyway.. I don't think RFK had it in him to organize a murder, let alone of someone that wouldn't even matter in the grand scope of things. Marilyn, I believe, wouldn't have gone public with it - and even if she did, what harm could it really do? Ted killed a woman and he's still being re-elected to his Senate seat, do you think people would care about one little affair?
Besides, if I was married to someone that looked like Ethel, I'd want Marilyn Monroe too. Even though she wasn't very "clean" when it came to personal hygiene.
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Pat,
MacNeil was on a press bus in the motorcade. He yelled "Stop the bus!" and jumped out after hearing the shots (President Kennedy Has Been Shot, p. 24).
Ron
Ahh, that's right. He's one of the unwitting conspiracists, i.e. someone who claims not to have an opinion on the possibility of a conspiracy, but re-tells the same story year in and year out that only makes sense if there were more than one shooter. Most of the unwitting conspiracists are quite certain the last two shots were fired one after the other, but fail to acknowledge this rules out Oswald as a lone-nut.
That's always how Nellie Connally seemed to me. She & John Connally both felt the shot that hit him & the shot that hit JFK ( for the ever-so-controversial SBT wounds ) were completely different bullets, yet refuse to acknowledge that four shots completely rules out Oswald as a lone gunman - a theory just BARELY passed off as even remotely logical with THREE shots.
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Good piece! Even some new bits for me. Maybe you could edit it to include Rose Cheramie. Very significant mysterious death.
I like to add this:
David Ferrie died a mysterious death, which was ruled a suicide, only two days before he was scheduled to testify in the famous trial of District Attorney Jim Garrison
Not true.
Seconded. Ferrie's death was ruled a cerebral hemorrhage, and there was no suicide note found at the scene ( one thing Jim Garrison & I disagree on )..
Not to mention, Ferrie died in 1967. The Shaw trial was in 1969.
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The man Oswald sat next to on the outward bus journey to Mexico was an Englishman, who told two Austrailian girls also on the bus that he was a retired school teacher, the W/C located this man he told them his name was John Howard Bowen, he was lying, his real name was Albert Osbourn they found his answers to be evasive and untrue, he had also lied to the girls about his past employment. Another bizarre character who briefly entered the life of LHO.
Is there any way to tie Osbourn to any activities with government, military, activism groups, or intelligence? Kind of fishy to randomly lie to people like that when he's sitting next to Oswald ( who, understandably, he didn't know would soon be accused of murdering the President ).
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I then started to think about operation Mongoose (particularly Northwoods) and the ridiculous plans for Castro's assassination, Exploding cigars, poison to make his beard fall out, etc,what if these were not real operation's at all, but setting the scene to give Castro a reason to want Kennedy dead, at least in the eye's of the American public. If this trick can be pulled off you kill two birds with one stone. After all, if you assasinate Castro you kill one man, and probably harden Cuba's resolve to resist. Fake a reason for invasion, you get the whole shooting match. and in doing away with the hated Kennedy you get Vietnam thrown in as well. as I said just thinking out loud...Steve.
Very interesting idea, Stephen. I haven't studied the Mexico incident, so I don't know of any evidence to shoot the theory down, but it's definitely worth looking into.
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Nic wrtote:
That's not even mentioning that they protected Joe Sr from death threats in the 1930's and were RUMORED TO have helped in the election ( although everyone knows they did ), and then RFK went after the REPUBLICAN mob..
Nic, what I am aware of is a story that Giancana protected Joe Sr. in the mid fifties after Joe, Sr. had double crossed Frank Costello in a New York real estate deal. But some doubt that story.
What is your knowledge about threats to Joe, Sr. in the fifties?
It's been established before that Joe was deeply involved in bootlegging since the beginning of Prohibition. JPK reportedly sought out Costello for help, where JPK would ship the liquor to the U.S.
I believe it was in The Dark Side of Camelot where a "Senior Kennedy aide" is quoted as saying that Costello tried to get JPK to invest in a slot machine company, but JPK wouldn't - which was a good thing as the firm making them was controlled by Capone. When one of JPK's workers ( a hot-shot lawyer ) was shot outside a mafia hotspot in Chicago, JPK began organizing a sale of his liquor-importing company.
I've found that Costello felt he was owed a favor by JPK, which JPK felt he was too good to pay back. At first, I figured that this had something to do with Costello having been like a 2nd father to Sinatra, and Sinatra's contacts with the election, etc. However, I remember reading somewhere that Costello was angry with JPK over this broken favor in 1956, and JPK pleaded with Momo to protect him, and swore that JFK would be in his pocket forever - that he'd never go behind his back, etc.
In all the books I've read, I can't find concrete evidence of what the "favor" was, and considering it was mob-related, if it's been documented at all, it was probably destroyed or locked up in a govt. vault somewhere. I'll look through my materials again when I get more time.
However, back to the thread subject now.
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Maybe it was just an initial bodily jolt reaction to being shot, a reflex reaction to being shot. I'd say it's definitely his fist, though.
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It looks like his fist to me, which could have been a reaction to being shot. Attempting to reach for a wound, maybe. Having zero experience with gunshot wounds, I can only speculate. Maybe some member here can provide more insight?
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Hello again,
I finally found a good pic of the guy I'm talking about. Same event, different angle. In this picture, he's holding his right hand up in front of his face. Does anyone on this forum know whether or not he's been positively ID'd? Does anyone agree with me that he resembles Novel? (Thomas Graves)
Hi Thomas.
Could that be a cigarette the man is holding in his right hand? Novel was a pipe smoker. In all the images I have of him, none show him smoking a cigarette.
If that is not a cigarette the man in the image you posted is holding, then ignore this message.
BTW, the Leroy Young that Holt identified, does anyone know if he was any relation to Austin Young?
James
It could be a pen, but it looks too small. Judging by the position of his hand, it looks like it's a cigarette that's the guy had just taken a puff of and then was scratching his forehead.
It does resemble Novel, though.
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I don't insist that Cuba was meant to be a patsy, pure speculation, nothing more. Maybe that's how the government got the mafia involved, then abandoned the Cuban-invasion idea after the mob did their part.
Where did Bob Vernon go?
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Thank goodness. Vernon has a good mind, but chasing evidence to support an event that never happened would drive anyone crazy.