Gary Murr

Hi Pat:

No real help here as I assume you have scoured all the usual sources regarding Leon Gray. Just a curiosity on my part, however. I find it interesting that during his April 8, 1964 deposition session with David Belin that Gerald Hill, sergeant DPD, indicated to Belin that he thought that an individual appearing, left hand side of G. L. Hill Deposition Exhibit B [20H156], a photograph of Oswald being led from the theatre, "...could be an officer name L. E. Gray..." though Hill did indicate that he could not be positive about this identification. If it was Gray, how did he end up at the theatre. 

FWIW

Indeed ... and goes on from there.

On 2/2/2024 at 4:30 PM, Micah Mileto said:

Buried in Plain Sight by John Hunt is also an excellent RFK book. Totally worth the Kindle price.

Thank you for the shout-out on John's book Micah; much appreciated. It is a shame that more people have not taken the time to read this work and those who haven't... well, you reallyshould. There are very few people who know more about the assassination of RFK than the late John Hunt. And because you have read his book you also know that he conducted research and uncovered evidence that is unique to the case and reflective of John's "style."

On 2/3/2024 at 5:53 PM, Denise Hazelwood said:

Thank you, Gary. Can you give me your source for this, please? I notice it says "HSCA (RC 233) on the side, but if you have the actual link, that would be helpful.

As per your request - the Audrey Bell  half-page memorandum can be found in the records of the HSCA, specifically: HSCA: Record Number: 180-10096-10351: Agency File Number: 001894. It is rather curious that the HSCA has, as part of its records, two “different” versions of the Governor’s theoretical complete medical history of his stay at Parkland Memorial Hospital. The “second” version, that possessing the higher HSCA record number, comprises some eleven more total pages than its predecessor, listed as being 130 pages in length. Though allegedly larger in documentation than the Fenton/Moriarity version, this second rendering actually contains nine fewer pages of pertinent medical data prepared by various Parkland Memorial Hospital personnel. Included in this listing of fewer pages is; analysis of X-rays taken of the Governor on November 27, December 2, and December 4, all prepared by radiologist Jack Reynolds, as well as post-operative shift notations prepared by the nursing staff responsible for the Governor convalescing care, specifically nurses notes for the dates November 26, 27, 29, 30, and December 1, 2, 3. However, what is different in the second version is the inclusion of three disjointed pages from Secret Service prepared files constructed in January and February, 1964; photostatic copies of the front and back of the “Foreign Body Envelope” which originally was thought to have contained the fragment or fragments removed by Dr. Gregory from the Governor’s right distal radius, and; a single page from an FBI report dated 11/29/63, a report filed by FBI-SA Vincent Drain describing Drain’s acquisition of X-rays of the Governor’s thigh wound and the analysis of these same X-rays by Dr. Reynolds.

As to your myriad of questions, many of which to me appear to be based upon hypothetical nuances that cannot be answered satisfactorily to everyones liking - after all truth, like art, is in the eye of the beholder. However, I do find it interesting that on occasions in the past when I have produced this same document the authenticity of the document is the first thing called into question - as to why, I cannot answer. What I do know, that may or may not be relevant, is that on November 22, 1963, Bob Nolan was assigned to security detail at the Trade Mart. Because of this he was dressed in "plainclothes" not in what some may consider to be the uniform clothing normally associated with a member of the State of Texas, Department of Public Safety Highway Patrol Division, which Bob Nolan was. Why  Nolan would question his initials on the envelope as being upside down, I cannot answer. But why is this a curiousity? After all, Captain Fritz's initials are also upside down on this same envelope. Why did Audrey Bell write "fragment" on the half-page memo and "fragments" on the envelope is, again, a question I cannot answer. What I can indicate to you is that when the envelope was received in the FBI lab, and thereafter opened, it would appear it contained but a singular fragment. The "official" FBI lab photograph of this item, designated inititally Q9 and then C9, is a picture of a fragment, singular, not fragments. [image attached herein]. And as to your thought that the Nolan "envelope signature is a forgery, added after the Single Bullet theory became a necessity..." is not borne out as true because a photograph of the "first day evidence" generated by the DPD after the initial evidence taken by the FBI, via Vince Drain, was returned to the DPD shows the envelope on a desk with the rest of the returned evidence and Nolan's initials are already on the envelope - this months in advance of any thoughts of a SBT. FWIW

3 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

So now we know how David Lifton managed to keep John Connally from sustaining any wounds from the rear during the period when the assassination of JFK was taking place on Elm Street. He (Lifton) merely invented this fantasy story about Secret Service agent John Ready leaping into the limousine and shooting Connally. And then John Connally, in all of his many post-1963 interviews, decided to never once mention this "fight" that he had with Ready.

I agree, David, as this, at least to my mind, was Lifton's mind-set on the Connally wounding. Perhaps now you and potentially others can see why I was reluctant to get dragged into this charade.

Hello Denise:

As someone with more than a passing interest in the wounding of John Connally I thank you for your lengthy article on the governors wounding. I have not had the time to read the entire treatise in detail, end to end, but intend to do so as my time allows. In a cursory speed read over the first half of your article I came across a couple of statements you made, listed below, statments concerning Audrey Bell, Bob Nolan, and the half-page PMH inter-office memorandum, to wit:

"The half-page Interoffice Memorandum on Parkland letterhead, which she said she had one of the two federal agents sign upon turning over the fragments to them and which she subsequently gave to Parkland supervisor Jack Price was not in the collection of evidence..."

 "So where is that half-page Interoffice Memorandum receipt that was executed when she turned the fragments over to the plainclothes federal agents? It seems to have disappeared altogether! However, unlike the supposed "302" reports of the purported Bardwell Odum interviews of Darrell Tomlinson and O.P. Wright, which I believe never existed, I believe this receipt did exist, and then was later "disappeared" because it was inconvenient to the desired narrative."

In truth, the inter-office receipt did exist, did not "disappear[ed]" and continues to exist and can be found in Connally's "complete" PMH medical record as obtained by members of the HSCA staff. As you can see, Nolan did sign the receipt - "Bob Nolan" - and in his own handwriting. Of course what is truly of interest is the fact that Audrey Bell, who did compose the other writing on this receipt, indicates that the foreign body envelope she was turning over to Nolan contained a "fragment", singular, not fragments.  Furthermore, if you compare the capital letters "B" and "N" as signature written by Nolan on the inter-office memorandum with his initials as found on the foreign body envelope - CE 842 - you will note that they are identical, unique to Nolans handwriting, which leads me to conclude that his intials were not "forged" on CE 842 as you suggest. 

FWIW - Gary Murr

9 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Gary:

Lifton thought Connally was shot from the front twice?

Is that what you are saying?

Hi Jim:

I will go back into my records and see if I can find the specific email exchange David and myself had on this subject matter, but off the top of my head this was definitely inferred, if in fact not so stated.

17 hours ago, Paula Botan said:

He was doing research that is true, but his ideas were becoming increasingly far-fetched for me. I think he painted himself into a very tight corner with his theories and could not get himself out. 

Hello Paula:

I thank you for your informative input into this thread; I for one am appreciative. As someone who first met David Lifton in the late 1960's we possessed a cordial relationship that spanned several decades, even as I drifted away from the events of November22, 1963, for many years in the 1980's. David and myself did exchange information sporadically over this time span. However, he became increasinly more "interested" in materials I had gathered regarding, specifically, the wounding of John Connally, a topic I researched extensively for over a decade beginning in the early and mid 1990's and beyond. Some of his requests bordered on the bizarre - as you noted, "increasingly far-fetched" - to the point that I eventually had to politely decline his requests for all of my Connally research. For me the "end" of our relationship occurred when he tried to convince me that Connally was shot, more than once, "from the front" though he did never did reveal to me where exactly this "front" location was situated. 

FWIW

Gary Murr 

31 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Thanks Gary.  No I have not read it.  I looked at JFK Lancer as it was published by them, hoping to find a hard copy but it's not listed there under books.  Just came out in 2022?  When did Hunt pass?

Hi Ron - 

John died on October 29, 2018; he was only 52 years of age.

12 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

"Other authors including Larry Hancock and William Turner/John Christian have done great work on the RFKA but Lisa's Magnum Opus A Lie to Big to Fail is the definitive work on the RFKA imho."  

 

Ron:

Have you read the late John Hunt's book on his investigation into the assassination of RFK? If you haven't, you should. A kindle version is available via Amazon - link provided below if you are interested.

Link: https://www.amazon.com/Buried-Plain-Site-Search-Murder-ebook/dp/B0BR5WWY3Y 

FWIW

Gary

Greg:

I have a chapter on Pool and others involved in this from the second volume of my unpublished work on the wounding of John Connally. I will send you a link to this via a pm shortly.

Gary

10 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

This is belated—because it took until now to read it—but THANK YOU Gary Murr for making available this chapter of your detailed research on Connally history. 

Could you be persuaded to make available your chapter that deals with when in Zapruder Connally was hit with his bullet and all that? 😊 

Hello Greg... and thank you for taking the time to read the chapter I previously posted. Regarding your question concerning when I might make available my thoughts/writings regarding when, in/on specific frames of the Zapruder film, John Connally was struck and thereafter wounded, I can say the following. I intend to return specifically to this subject matter later this year. I am in the throes of finishing volume 2 of "Forgotten", which I hope to have completed by late spring/early summer. Once that is finished, I intend to complete a paper I have roughed out that deals only with the wounding of Connally and the Zapruder film, which is, to state the obvious, absolutely necessary to any understanding of the mechanics just when the Governor was struck. If I can work the timing correctly, I may release this paper in conjunction with a potential JFK Assassination Conference in November of this year - 2024 - if I get any invitations to participate.

As it stands right now, this will probably be the last writing I do on the events of November 22, 1963. I have been "at this" since my first contact with Harold Weisberg in 1966 so it is probably time to retire. And on a final note, I will admit that I have changed my mind on the timing of the Connally wounding from what I have written in the past.

FWIW

I am attaching herein a link to Chapter 35, from Volume 3, of my unpublished work on the wounding of John Connally. Those not interested in the exchanges to date in this thread, in particular the role[s] played by TIME/LIFE, Holland McCombs, John Connally et al in various "secret" post WR release investigations of the assassination will probably find this a bit of a slog. The chapter, which took several months to research and write, is long - 180 pages - and does contain 788 footnotes, not for the faint of heart as it were. I cannot remember precisely when I wrote this, but it was finished, as attached warts and all, at least five or six years ago. If you are interested in John and Nellie Connally's efforts to "control the past" you might discover some details not previously known to you. The first dozen or so pages deal with John Connally in the immediate aftermath of his arrival at Parkland Hospital, but give it chance and read on for the bulk of the chapter really is all about John and Nellie and their writings, published and secretly discussed, in the years after the assassination. 

FWIW

Link:  https://www.transferbigfiles.com/6cf3ca5d-8028-4660-889e-21aef4e3382b/pWQUgeSCOckz0pusCGTnrA2 

Larry/Pat:

"Wallace Millam researched that in detail after tracking down a number of leads and found the archives of its work in a small college library - in Tennessee I think."

You are correct on this, Larry. I was not in attendance at the Lancer Conference at which Wallace Millam presented his paper, but I do have a few hundred pages on this subject matter - the LIFE magazine inquiry - acquired from the Holland McCombs Papers, Corbitt Special Collection/University Archives, University of Tennessee at Martin. I believe I sent Tink Thompson some of this material several years ago and I do have a lengthy section on the role McCombs played in this effort in my original three volume, unpublished work on the wounding of John Connally. What is little known is that McCombs approached John Connally with some of his work in conjunction with a private/secret separate effort Connally was constructing [apart and different from his eventual LIFE article "A Matter Of Resonable Doubt] in rebuttal to initially the various critics of the Warren Commission, an effort that was expanded by Connally to combat the impending release of William Manchester's "Death Of A President." This effort on Connally's part was never finished and again I do have all of the rough notes and paperwork that was generated by Connally and his cohorts, which I acquired from the Connally papers resident at the LBJ Library, Austin, Texas. 

FWIW

20 hours ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

the un-named “Laboratory source” reference regarding the purchase of two million rounds by George Zucker Sales Company"

And further to this, the un-named laboratory source was Burton Munhall of H. P. White Laboratories. I do go into this in greater detail in a later part of Volume 1, but what I discovered, as a result of documentation from archival files of the WCC, is that Munhall and WCC had exchanged details regarding the 6.5mm WCC carcano ammunition almost two years prior to the assassination event. You will not find copies of these memorandum anywhere but in the WCC files. 

Hi Jean:

Apologies for not responding sooner, but I was away from my files yesterday. In answer to your questions: 62-109060-1429 is not censored. You can find a copy of this file in the Mary Ferrell collection here:  https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62268#relPageId=106  

The file mentioned at this point in the manuscript that you were reading that was heavily censored was 62-109060-488.  However, I do seem to recall that I did eventually find an uncensored copy of this file. When I get a chance I will try to locate it for you and send it along your way.

Thanks for this, Greg - much appreciated and is on my ever-growing reading list.

I am pleased to see that you are taking the time to read the link I posted yesterday. A lot of the first few chapters is, in my opinion, necessary background important to what was to eventually occur. When I initially mapped an outline on this subject matter I was, obviously, very unaware as to what I would find as the years of research rolled by. And were it not for my eventual discovery and attainment of the surviving records of the OSAAC - Ordance Small Arms Ammunition Center - in St. Louis, the possiblity existed that I would never have found out the reason why the ammunition was produced in the first place and for whom. Though some may feel otherwise, I felt it important that I at least make an effort to understand the experimentation with small arms ammunition that was being pursued in the wake of the ending of WW II. To that end, the role played by Gerald Gustaffson and his search for the "perfect" bullet is important. After all, when the WCC decided to get serious about the capabilities of this specific ammunition they did turn to him and the facilities of the Aberdeen Proving Grounds for their expertise.

FWIW

I thank you for your response, Jean... enjoy the read.

I am [hopefully] attaching, below, a link to the first three parts of volume 1, including their pertinent footnotes, of "Forgotten", my decades plus attempt to not only track but understand the history of the WCC 6.5mm Carcano ammunition said to have been responsible for the assassination of JFK, as well as the wounding of Governor John Connally, Dallas, Texas, November 22, 1963. In total volume 1 currently consists of six individual parts. The first three accessible through the link provided were constructed by myself, in my "spare" time, between 2011 and 2015. In the intervening years, up to and including 2023, I, like many of you, have been allowed access to literally thousands of pages of new documents/research that had been, until their release, unavailable. Additionally, I continued to gather my own research on this subject matter, and continue to do so as I complete volume 2 of this writing. Because of these releases, I did spend some time in 2018 going back over the then "completed" first five parts of volume 1, making corrections and/or additions as they seemed fit. Most of these additions occurred in parts four through the as yet unfinished part six as I still acquire more information relative to volume 1. As the interested reader will see, I owe a gread debt of thanks to the late John Hunt. His generousity in allowing me access to documents and files he had scanned during his numerous visits to NARA only served, and continue to do so, in my attempt to be as historically accurate as possible. 

I have extended the time frame during which this link will be "active" from the previously normal working schedule of five days to one month, meaning the link will no longer work after December 14th of this year. 

In closing all the warts that one may find affixed in this writing, including my various Weisberg-like ramblings, are mine and mine alone.  

LINK:  http://tbf.me/a/BvH0CM  

Congratulations, Michael - my paperback is scheduled to arrive on Saturday.

Hello Jean/Benjamin:

Actually when you open the link you have provided, Jean, it opens at page 176 of this particular file. You have to go back five pages, to page 171, to find the documents you are referring to in your posting re WCC-Greece-Canada-Sucher et al. 

14 minutes ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

Some things are evidently wrong in this statement, but it's the origin of the Greece story IMO

You are correct, there are multiple things "wrong" in this statement and for now I will say this. My research, to date - and this is an ongoing project, particularly as it relates to what will become volume 2 of "Forgotten" - indicates that the entire Greece angle and WCC 6.5mm carcano ammunition is untrue. There is/was no Greek arms dealer who went by the name of "Fontinellis". And Benjamin, "the U.S. government"  had no reason for ordering this ammunition in the first place.

I will be making, later today, an announcement here on the Ed Forum regarding volume 1 of "Forgotten", for those that are interested.

Gary

On 11/10/2023 at 10:33 AM, Jean Ceulemans said:

And keep'm coming

Howard Roffman - "Presumed Guilty".

And if you want to go back to the "stone age" of early writings, any/all of Harold Weisberg's many volumes.

1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

John Hunt's book is definitely the gold standard for what happened with the RFK evidence.

Without a doubt, Larry - and kudo's to Mike and Peter for taking the timeto read John's work, an exercise that anyone truly interested in the LAPD investigation into the RFK assassination should read.

FWIW

Jean - I sent you a PM a while ago; when you get the chance give it a look.