Tony Austin

Lots of good advice and interesting comments. Thanks to everyone who has replied on this thread. I think the forum works best when we are trying to help each other. Kind regards Tony

Thanks for the advice guys, I will get hold of copies of those books soon. Regards Tony

Hi folks, I am currently doing general research into the subject of Jack Ruby. I would be grateful if any members of the forum could advise me of any particular books, magazines, articles or documentaries that they would recommend as providing accurate, interesting and insightful informative on this subject. All suggetions welcome, I would rather have too much information than too little. Thanks for any help in this matter, Regards Tony

Yes, I agree with you there, Michael. As to why Oswald decided to purchase his rifle via mail-order when he knew full well he would be attempting an illegal act with that weapon within just a few days of receiving it (attempting to kill Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker) --- my answer to that inquiry is this: ~shrug~ And everyone else's answer should be that same "shrug" too, because nobody can know for sure why Kook Oswald did the nutty things he did in 1963.....because he never told anybody why he did them prior to meeting his Maker in the City Hall basement. It seems strange to me that Oswald did not apply for a mail box using the name Hidell and then arrange for the rifle that was ordered in the name of Hidell to be delivered to that mail box. Ordering a rifle using a false name and then arranging for it to be delivered to a mail box that is being used in your real name seems to be strange self-defeating behaviour. Another question to give a big shrug in reply I presume.

It is interesting to ask questions of the "if only" and "what if" type when looking it historic events. With regards to the Kennedy assassination you could ask "what if the Chicago plot had succeeded?" There was a plot to assassinate President Kennedy when he visited Chicago on the 2nd day of November 1963. However, the FBI were tipped off about the plot and they informed the Secret Service. The Secret Service then worked with the Chicago police to arrest the plotters and stop the assassination from happening. What would have happened if the FBI had never been tipped off? The assassination might have happened in Chicago and it appears that the blame would have fallen upon an ex-marine who was stationed at a U2 base in Japan at one time, who had extreme political views, who started in new job in the summer of 1963 working in a warehouse that had windows overlooking the road where the Presidential parade would pass a few months later. Exactly the same as it was for Lee Harvey Oswald in reality, only in this case the man taking the blame would be Thomas Arthur Vallee. Going back to the original thread, we can ask what would have happened if it had rained all day, the bubble top had been used and the assassination attempt abandoned? Nobody knows, but I would guess that a few weeks later President Kennedy would be shot in his Limousine on a parade route through another city. The man blamed would probably be an ex-marine who once served at a U2 base in Japan, had extreme political views and who just happened to work in a warehouse over looking the parade route. His name would not be Thomas Arthur Vallee or Lee Harvey Oswald but I expect he would have three names and the Warren Commission would have named him as the lone assassin. I expect that Mr Von Pein would be trying to persuade us that this man acted alone! There were powerful people at work with regards to the assassination of President Kennedy. If the Dealey Plaza shooting had not gone ahead they would have got him eventually, one way or another.

___________________________________________________________________________ Thanks, Tony. I wonder if he saw anyone getting or taking that kind of paper, of at least the required length, from his work area in the days leading up to the assassination. Also, regarding Lee's question, does anyone on the Forum know if the electrical boxes for the elevators were in the basement? Thanks, --Thomas Tony I am sure the paper bag produced by the FBI ( one of 4) was tested and neither the paper nor the tape came from the TSBD Ian Ian, The Warren Commission's official conclusion was that the paper bag and the tape came from the TSBD. If you look at The Warren Commission Report, Chapter4, pages 135 and 136 you can see this: http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wcr/index.php go to pages 135 and 136 Tony

Perhaps for the same reason they fingerprinted Oswald twice. Also I thought Fritz kept one in his desk and that only 2 went to the FBI.Maybe he kept the dented/short cycled one?. Ian, The official version is that Detective Sims took possession of the three spent cartridges at about 1:20pm and he took them to Captain Fritz at his office later that afternoon. Fritz gave them to Detective Dhority later that evening with instructions to deliver then to Lieutenant Day for fingerprinting and to return with one of the three cartridges. Captain Fritz retained the single cartridge until an FBI agent collected it from him a few days later. However, when Detective Sims testified to the Warren Commission on April 6, 1964 he could not remember taking possession of the cartridges. He testified again on April 8, 1964 and said that Detective Boyd and Captain Fritz had reminded him about taking possession of the cartridges and that he now remembered doing this. Lieutenant Day testified to the Warren Commission that he could not remember who delivered the three cartridges to him, however, in an affidavid dated May 7, 1964 he stated that Detective Dhority had reminded him that he was the person that made the delivery and so he now remembered that event. He spoke about being asked to check for fingerprints even though he had done this already when he was on the 6th floor of the TSBD. Day made an affidavid on June 23, 1964 and this time he mentioned that he was asked to "recheck" for fingerprints as if it would be quite routine to be asked to "recheck" for fingerprints on small cartridge cases that had already been checked for prints. In neither affidavid does he say whether he actually checked for fingerprints on the evening of November 22, 1963. Day's Affidavids: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/day2.htm With Detective Sims and Lieutenant Day showing difficulty in remembering events you might wonder if Detective Dhority had remembered things correctly. Perhaps Lieutenant Day did not check the Cartridges for prints that evening, he just retained two and gave Dhority one back without doing any processing and Dhority had not remembered this correctly. After all, his affidavid was made 6 months after the event. However, in the City of Dallas archives Box 3, Folder 5, Item 1 is a report by Dhority. It is not dated but this type of report would have been made soon after the assassination. In this report Dective Dhority makes a more emphatic statement that Lieutenant Day checked the cartridges for fingerprints than he makes in the later affidavid. http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm This seems to suggest that Lieutenant Day really did check for fingerprints on the cartridges twice that day. Tony Tony Its only odd if they are the same cartridges, Surely their chain of evidence would establish these facts .An evidence bag or envelope would have to be signed for before fingerprinting or any testing could take place .If they were tested by Day he would sign for possession ,test them, rebag them and send them off to the FBI who in turn would sign possession of them . Would you agree? . Ian Ian, Thanks, I can see what you are getting at. The story with regard to initials scratches on cartridges, names written on the evidence envelope, whether the envelope was sealed or not etc etc gets quite complicated. I need to put it together in some sort of logical order to explore this point further. Unfortunately, I have house guests for the next week and I will not have time to look at this until next weekend. I will get back on this matter when I can. Unless anybody out there has all the facts to hand and would like to 'chip in' Tony

Perhaps for the same reason they fingerprinted Oswald twice. Also I thought Fritz kept one in his desk and that only 2 went to the FBI.Maybe he kept the dented/short cycled one?. Ian, The official version is that Detective Sims took possession of the three spent cartridges at about 1:20pm and he took them to Captain Fritz at his office later that afternoon. Fritz gave them to Detective Dhority later that evening with instructions to deliver then to Lieutenant Day for fingerprinting and to return with one of the three cartridges. Captain Fritz retained the single cartridge until an FBI agent collected it from him a few days later. However, when Detective Sims testified to the Warren Commission on April 6, 1964 he could not remember taking possession of the cartridges. He testified again on April 8, 1964 and said that Detective Boyd and Captain Fritz had reminded him about taking possession of the cartridges and that he now remembered doing this. Lieutenant Day testified to the Warren Commission that he could not remember who delivered the three cartridges to him, however, in an affidavid dated May 7, 1964 he stated that Detective Dhority had reminded him that he was the person that made the delivery and so he now remembered that event. He spoke about being asked to check for fingerprints even though he had done this already when he was on the 6th floor of the TSBD. Day made an affidavid on June 23, 1964 and this time he mentioned that he was asked to "recheck" for fingerprints as if it would be quite routine to be asked to "recheck" for fingerprints on small cartridge cases that had already been checked for prints. In neither affidavid does he say whether he actually checked for fingerprints on the evening of November 22, 1963. Day's Affidavids: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/day2.htm With Detective Sims and Lieutenant Day showing difficulty in remembering events you might wonder if Detective Dhority had remembered things correctly. Perhaps Lieutenant Day did not check the Cartridges for prints that evening, he just retained two and gave Dhority one back without doing any processing and Dhority had not remembered this correctly. After all, his affidavid was made 6 months after the event. However, in the City of Dallas archives Box 3, Folder 5, Item 1 is a report by Dhority. It is not dated but this type of report would have been made soon after the assassination. In this report Dective Dhority makes a more emphatic statement that Lieutenant Day checked the cartridges for fingerprints than he makes in the later affidavid. http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm This seems to suggest that Lieutenant Day really did check for fingerprints on the cartridges twice that day. Tony

OK, no takers. If you look at the testimony of Lieutentant Day before the Warren Commission, you find on one page: http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol14/page253.php ,about half way down, Day is taking about what he did on the day Kennedy was assassinated when he was on the sixth floor at about 1:20pm. You will see the bit where he says: "..Were taken. I processed these three hulls for fingerprints, using powder. Mr. Sims picked them up by the ends and handed them to me. I processed each of the three, did not find fingerprints. As I had finished that, Captain Fritz sent word for me..." So, Lieutenant Day says he fingerprinted the three spent cartridges on the afternoon of the assassination and Dhority says that Lieutenant Day fingerprinted the three cartridges when he took them to him later that evening. Now that seems strange to me, why would Lieutenant Day fingerprint the cartridges twice?

The three spent rifle cartridges Anybody notice anything strange about this affidavit by Detective Dhority? http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/dhority2.htm

Thomas, Don't forget Troy Eugene West who worked as a mail wrapper on the first floor. He never left his work area throughout his normal working day. He would even eat his lunch close to his wrapping machine. Just because the President of the United States was going past the book depository in his motorcade that day he did not see any reason why he should change his routine. He was at usual place of work on the first floor at the time of the assassination and he did not see anybody until the police arrived. Troy is an interesting character because he never saw Lee Harvey Oswald in the days leading up to the assassination getting the paper that he supposedly used to make a bag for his rifle. His testimony to the Warren Commission: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/rus/m_i_russ/west.htm Tony

Bernice, Many thanks for your contributions. Reading through the above you see the huge amount of contradictions between the Tom Alyea version of events and the Dallas Police and Sheriff's Department version of events. I was interested in the comment ".. crime scene peolpe who did not see the original positioning because they were not called upon the scene until after the rifle was found nearly an hour later." An awful lot of law enforcement people would have had to have been lying for this to be true! With regards to general timing of events, I was interested to find that the evidence envelope that contained the three spent cartridges had a time written on it. As I said in my article, when Captain Fritz saw the rifle he told Detective Sims to go and get Lieutenant Day to photograph the weapon. Sims found Day and helped him to get the spent cartridges fingerprinted and put into an evidence envelope. The two men then returned to where the rifle was found. Lieutenant Day testifed to the Warren Commission that the date and time that Sims took charge of the envelope was written on the envelope. He told them that the writing says: November 22, 1963, 1:23pm This is interesting because it does not appear to be an estimate to the nearest 5 or 10 minutes eg 1:20pm or 1:25pm etc. Putting it as 1:23pm suggests that the time was checked on a watch just before it was written. see: http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol4/page256.php This would suggest the the rifle was found about 1:20pm and that the crime scene officers must have been on the scene earlier than the 1:20pm time recorded in various statements mentioned earlier. Tony

Bernice, Many thanks for your contributions. Reading through the above you see the huge amount of contradictions between the Tom Alyea version of events and the Dallas Police and Sheriff's Department version of events. I was interested in the comment ".. crime scene peolpe who did not see the original positioning because they were not called upon the scene until after the rifle was found nearly an hour later." An awful lot of law enforcement people would have had to have been lying for this to be true! With regards to general timing of events, I was interested to find that the evidence envelope that contained the three spent cartridges had a time written on it. As I said in my article, when Captain Fritz saw the rifle he told Detective Sims to go and get Lieutenant Day to photograph the weapon. Sims found Day and helped him to get the spent cartridges fingerprinted and put into an evidence envelope. The two men then returned to where the rifle was found. Lieutenant Day testifed to the Warren Commission that the date and time that Sims took charge of the envelope was written on the envelope. He told them that the writing says: November 22, 1963, 1:23pm This is interesting because it does not appear to be an estimate to the nearest 5 or 10 minutes eg 1:20pm or 1:25pm etc. Putting it as 1:23pm suggests that the time was checked on a watch just before it was written. see: http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol4/page256.php This would suggest the the rifle was found about 1:20pm and that the crime scene officers must have been on the scene earlier than the 1:20pm time recorded in various statements mentioned earlier. Tony

Mike, It gets Fritz away from the snipers nest in the immediate minutes following the discovery of the shells. If he's not there he can't tamper with them. Lee I hardly think that he would really have to lie about that. As it stands we have film footage from Alyea of Fritz entering the TSBD. If this is the case then Alyea had to enter after Fritz. So then to do we have Gerald Hill saying he yelled down to the ground as well, and then shortly after he heard Fritz et al coming up in the freight elevator. I think it is plausible that Fritz may have been still on the ground when they were found. Basically what we have is crime scene photos that Mooney says are consistent with what he saw. This is completely contradictory to Craig who said they were all neat in a row, and Alyea who says they could be covered by a hand towel. I might also note that not even Alyea seems to agree with Craig. Mike Mike If Fritz got to the TBSD at 12:58PM then I think it conceivable that Alyea could get the footage of Fritz entering, follow him in, Fritz stops on most of the floors then goes to the 7th. Alyea is then on the 6th. The casings are found at 1:15PM. Fritz comes down from the 7th floor 1:16PM-1:17PM. Mike - have you seen any affidavits from Luke Mooney about his discovery? I've looked in the DPD files and there is zilch for Mooney. Lee Lee, I could not find an affidavit from Mooney but I did find a brief report he wrote dated the day after the assassination that you might find interesting and, sorry to say, it will probably provoke more arguments! http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/mooney1.htm Tony

Tony, How could Fritz have aided Alyea within a minute of the casings being found, when he was not even on the 6th floor when they were found? This is only one of many questions. There are some serious accuracy issues with the article, if you wish I will address them. Mike Mike, If you look at the "Report on the officer's duties in regards to the President's murder - R.M. Sims and E.L. Boyd" in the City of Dallas Archives: JFK collection in box 3, folder 4, item 5 on the second page you find that they state that the empty hull were found about 1:15pm and that Lt Day and Detective Studebaker (the crime scene officers) arrived on the scene about 1:20pm ( see: http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm ) This fits in with Lee Farley's reference to Detective Senkel stating the spent cartridges were found at 1:15pm. If we assume that Captain Fritz took a minute to get to the sniper's nest, then it appears that there would be 4 minutes, between 1:16pm and 1:20pm when Captain Fritz could have picked up the spent cartridges for Tom Alyea before the crime scene officers arrived. I am not aware of an evidence to show that Tom Alyea was not on the sixth floor at this time. If you have found some serious accuracy errors in my article, please let me know what they are. I am not a JFK assassination expert, I am only a student of the assassination. If I get things wrong I would rather know about it and use the information to increase my understanding of the issues. So feel free to point out my errors.