Randy Downs

James, I would be very interested in your 'take'/opinion of Adams and what he says, especially in light of you having interviewed him. Would you consider him a credible source? Regards, Randy

I have just seen this thread for the first time and read all the way through it. Just a few thoughts: DB writes, "It is inconceivable that had Operation 40 been an assassination unit, as Simkin claims, that either or both the Church Committee and the CIA's Inspector General's Inspector General's report would not have made some made mention of it." Mmmm, yes, it is truly inconceivable that an off-the-books black ops, would remain as such because nobody would 'fess up' to the Church Committee or the IG or anyone else for that matter. It was i believe, a CIA director (sorry, i forget which one) who blatantly told a Congressional committee that: yes, he would lie to them and yes, he had instructed his agents to also lie. I'm sure someone here can back me up on that. DB writes, "According to Simkin's website - and without identifying the source, although it is likely to have been Wheaton - Quintero is quoted as once saying: "If I were ever granted immunity, and compelled to testify about past actions, about Dallas and the Bay of Pigs, it would be the biggest scandal ever to rock the United States." Quintero categorically denied to me in informal luncheon conversations before his death that he had ever made such a statement." Let me get this straight: a man who proclaims to be in on the murder of a U.S. president (or have inside knowledge of), as well as the infamous Bay of Pigs (which broke i don't know how many laws) -it's possible that he lied? Inconceivable. DB writes, (about John) "The following response from Mel Ayton. I find him find to be much more credible as a serious historian than you and your website which are a font of both misinformation and disinformation regarding numerous people and things which I have documented for you but to which you pay no attention. Thus, i stick with my original description of you and your background." Seriously, i'm having elementary school-yard flashbacks here. DB writes, (about John) "As I noted before, I wouldn't be surprised if you got your training in the defamation of people from the KGB" HAHAHAHAHAHA. John, i always knew there was something about you, i just couldn't put my finger on it. To Don, and for the record: It is NOT anti-american to know the difference between right and wrong. To create and fund and supply both sides of a civil war -is wrong. CIA bringing drugs into the country, and creating huge epidemics in the population -that's wrong The systematic policy of genocide against the American Indians -including the use of biological warfare; is so far beyond wrong, it's evil. I was born and raised in this land, i was taught that we stood for something, that as a nation we had ideals and standards. And it breaks the hearts and shatters the dreams of my generation, to find out the sanctioned evil that goes on (the Vietnam POWs), much less the unsanctioned evil. Because we want our nation to stand for something, we want to see it achieve the potential that it has. As the saying goes: All that's required for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing. So don't you ever again, call any person "anti-american" simply for speaking out against evil. R.D.

But, see, dude - nobody listened to Coroner Noguchi at the time. They tried to silence him. So we're all here today beatin' our gums about structuralism in naming, just waitin' for some connected, level-headed feller such as yourself to overcome all obstruction and obfuscation and get us an indictment. Then we'll all be in line to smooch your patootie, for sure! "Indictment"?? Are you high, funny guy? Nobody that's actually responsible for the deaths of JFK, RFK, MLK, will ever be held responsible or accountable. Laws cannot reach high enough to touch those with power to kill kings. Let us persevere to discover the truth in face of reality. Yet not be in denial of reality at the same time. R.D.

Wow, this is surreal. A reason? I have law enforcement in my family; any cops on this board active or retired? What are the usual motives for murder, please? And in a murder investigation, how does one start, where do you begin? You follow the evidence. If the victim was John Q. Citizen -and not RFK- there's no way people would be sitting around discussing the origins and history of a person's name. You take the findings of the coroner, you follow the leads that develop from there. I can't decide if this is ridiculous or sad; but it is certainly surreal. R. Downs

Yes, i would say Cesar is a person of interest. All due respect to recent sound tests and other efforts. But the best physical evidence that existed was confiscated, hidden, then destroyed by the LAPD. This is documented, we know this already. Now if Noguchi says the fatal shot behind RFK's ear was made no more than a few inches away, then the guy carrying a .22 and in position to fire at that close of a range -that's a person of interest. I mean, what are we quibbling about here? I think the man's lucky there was no house-cleaning, excuse me, i mean series of accidental deaths of witnesses, persons of interest, etc. in the aftermath. Regards, R.D.

I heard Colin Powell say something will happen on the 21st or 22nd. I heard Bush make a vague statement (though, that's his forte) about an event happening within 8 days of the new presidency. Has anyone heard any other remarks of this nature? Regards, Randy

Evan, Aye these are 2 separate programs, is what i was trying to point out.

Thank you for the links. "Zero" was shown after the discussion forum. This is all i know of the symposium: "Thierry Meyssan reports from Moscow that he and other leading international 9/11 truth experts have completed taping a television debate which will be telecast on the first national program of Russian state television this coming Friday, September 12. This no-holds barred, free-wheeling debate, featuring strongly divergent opinions about what really happened on and about September 11, 2001 , will be shown in conjunction with the documentary film Zero, produced and directed by Chiesa and Franco Fracassi of Telemaco Productions in Rome . Russians are thus about to receive an unprecedented evening of 9/11 truth. The telecast will go out in the middle of prime time. Among the participants, General Leonid Ivashov was the commander of the Russian armed forces on September 11, 2001 , and has been a leading critic of the US official version. Among almost a dozen Russian participants in the debate that will be televised Friday evening in Moscow, one of the most compelling speakers was a Russian cosmonaut who observed the 9/11 events from his post on the International Space Station in earth orbit. This cosmonaut recounts in the telecast that, as he watched the immense plume of smoke spread from New York out over the Atlantic , he took a large number of photos and films which were sent automatically to both Houston and Moscow . “We have been studying these images very, very, carefully,” commented the cosmonaut pointedly, “and we have seen some highly interesting things.”" I (personally) always think it sounds hinky when someone says "we have seen highly interesting things" and then mentions not a one. If you have something to say, say it; but don't act coy and then leave me with no way to follow-up or find out what you're talking about. Also, this is the only time i've ever heard about a cosmonaut and photographs. Randy

Thanks. Anyone know a proper name/title for it, so i can keep track of it?

Salut, I just read an article about a debate on Russian state tv, which took place on the 12th of Sept. Sort of like the round table "9/11 American Intellectuals Speak Out" that aired awhile ago. Does anyone know if we can see this (in the U.S.)? Is it now online somewhere? Anything? Regards, Randy

Greetings, I just read that before he died, Bobby had written "an unpublished book" about his brother's murder, called "The Enemy Within". Can anyone verify this? Has this book ever been published? Has anyone read this manuscript and can discuss what he wrote? Regards, Randy

"Word to the wise before mouthing off like a fool," Len, you should stand in front of mirror and say that. Randy

Peter, I appreciate the response. And aye, i knew that. People can only get you angry if you take them seriously, you know what i mean? I had a dear flatmate who is a philosopher, and i'm a poet -oh my, the discussions we would have i thought my head would explode. Rather, i learned debate and logic and deduction (and philosophy tricks)....from the school of hard knocks, as it were. Regards, Randy

I think Len's general attitude is obnoxious and rude, i think he was toward me in his post of: May 25 2008, 12:00 AM, where i was talking about a documentary. I didn't say anything to deserve that, and i addressed that in my follow-up post. It's an attitude i've seen displayed toward others in many, many other posts -without being provoked first. Stephen, i should lay off the personal insults?? "It seems you have difficulty comprehending what you read..." - Len "...seen/heard Jason Dumbass saying twice..." - Len "I’m not at all surprised that you are shooting off your mouth once again without having your facts straight. “I'm curious, is that a natural talent or” ‘did your parents raise you to accuse people of lying without bothering to check if you had your facts straight?’ “I'm just curious.” - Len. Who is quoting me at the end, and can't even do it accurately despite it being right there on the screen. Besides, i'm showing a genuine interest in his upbringing and personality in order to get to know him better, how is that insulting? But hey, if i'm the bad guy, okay. Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa, Randy

My understanding is that Alex Jones had made the statements about the FDNY. See the following. http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/alexjonesv...ndlarrysilverst Please note that Alex Jones' statements about the FDNY are documented here and in other quarters, Len didn't invent them. Also 'Loose Change' has been debunked in some fairly respectable venues and is considered to be one of the more flawed and easily debunked of the conspiracy theory presentations. This isn't just opinion. Have you seen Screw Loose Change and the myriad of sites which have challenged Loose Change? Any fair and objective dialogue should include both sides of an issue. Id like to know how Len's presentation of this information is obnoxious and rude? Well, the statement is "Alex Jones AND the producers of Loose Change"; i know little of the former so i addressed the latter. Define "debunk". Because there are lots of people claiming to have debunked lots of things: 'cell phones possible from an airliner' -debunked; 'cell phone calls impossible from an airliner' -debunked. How many times has Time magazine claimed to "debunk" the 'JFK conspiracies'? I don't know how many issues i've seen claim that. People claim to 'debunk' the existence of God. It seems obvious to me, that when someone claims to have "debunked" an idea; what that really means is they're opposed to the idea and then try to persuade you to their point of view. And yes, i've read a lot of this. I would rather hear from someone with an open mind, without an agenda, who can back up what they say. I'm not getting involved: Loose Change was right or not!! I mean, talk about losing sight of the bigger picture. Oh, and "Screw Loose Change"? Now there's someone who sounds like an open mind and no agenda. Randy

Peter, that's really a scary story. What's the title, do you think Last Hurrah would have it? It sounds, from your tale, that they got the book before distribution. Luckily, Hoffman's book had seen some distribution ere it was destroyed. Don't know if you can buy one (another arm and leg) i found it at the library, then learned about it's history. Chris, i live in the U.S. Where we have secret concentration camps (hundreds) set up and ready to go. This is a large part of why i think martial law will take place. It's not just that the laws are in place -suspending the constitution, suspending freedom of travel, keeping the president in power for the (indefinite) duration. It's that the system itself is in place and ready to go. The secret towns (camps) exist, why have them unless you plan on using them? Military exercises have (secretly) been taking place for years, across various states -to get the soldiers 'familiar' with the idea of rounding up or fighting against their own fellow citizens. How many people are aware of the national i.d. card that was signed into law a few years back? It's a modification of your driver's license, for the first year it only applies to the elderly and the disabled: people who are on social security, if you don't comply then your stipend is cut off. As with any herd, the weak and the old are targeted first; when the 2nd year kicks in, this applies to everyone. If you don't comply, you don't have access to your bank account. Of course, all in the interests of identity theft, added security, ad nauseaum. It's a scary place over here Chris; personally i don't understand why people still think about elections, impeachment, protections of the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. We've already seen that aren't real elections anymore, and emperor Bush has stated that the Geneva Conventions don't apply, the Rules of War don't apply, the use of banned weapons doesn't apply, nothing the U.N. says applies; and once the finger of the State gets pointed at you, (or all of us) the Constitution itself nor the Bill of Rights no longer applies to us here. Regards, Randy

Story by Turner here: http://www.jfk-online.com/farewellturner.html Book downloadable here: http://www.jfk-online.com/farewell00.html Thanks for that Story by Turner, Peter, He's a real Sam Spade. BK Bill, You are correct that Turner updated the information on the book [with many new strange twists and turns he didn't know at the time of the Ramparts article] in one of his more recent books. I forget which one myself. It is quite an amazing story - another intelligence agency [or group within it] writing publicly and covertly about the assassination of another nation's President by that other country's operatives - including that country's intelligence agency - nominally a 'friendly' intelligence service. That book would be Rearview Mirror. http://www.amazon.com/Rearview-Mirror-Look...s/dp/1883955211 It is good to see Bill Turner is on the COPA agenda in LA. One of my favorite heroes. As for French Intelligence, there are enough connections to start a thread, if not an investigation. Some of the arms stolen from the Schulemberger co. by the New Orleans crew, was from OAS, the renegade French Algiers network that tried to assassinate DeGaul. One OAS leader visited CIA officials in April, 1961, right around the time of the Bay of Pigs. The French CIA connection in keeping the Commies out of Marsalles ports is the same as the heroin link to SE Asia. “President Kennedy’s assassination was the work of magicians,” said Hevve Lemarr of French Intelligence. “It was a stage trick complete with actor’s accessories and props. And when the curtain fell the actors and even the scenery, disappeared. But the magicians were not illusionists, but professionals, artists in their own way.” [see: The Big Con at Dealey Plaza] Is Hevve Lemarr a real person? Or an alias? Is he the archtype of the French Inspector? Then there's Charles Calthrop - the English school teacher, alias for the professional assassin hired by the OAS to kill DeGaul as portrayed in the book and film The Day of the Jackal. This cold, calculating loner was thwarted by a French Inspector who set up a counter-intelligence operation to stop him. But if Charles Calthrop was just an English school teacher whose identity was stollen and used by the assassin, who was the assassin? Such a specially trained professional hit man can thwart normal police procedures, but not a specially trained and focused counter-intel unit set up and assigned to locate and neutralizing an assassin or a covert operation. David Atlee Phillips sets up a similar counterintel unit in his fictional The Carlos Contract, assigned to capture the Carlos the terrorist of Munich fame who is now in a French jail. While the book is suposidly fiction, there are some characters who mirror real people - Morales, the Big Indian, Jake Esterline, etc., but in the story, as in real life, Carlos obtaind and used the passport of an American student, Glen Gebhard, of Long Island, New York. I heard Glen's side of the story first, as we were students together in college. Glen lost his passport in Paris, stolen from his hotel room drawer, and had a hell of a time getting another one. A few years later he went back to Europe with the new passport, but in the meantime, Carlos was using his stolen one and the cops knew it. So when he tried to cross the border into France he was detained and violently interrogated until it was apparent that he was not Carlos the Terrorist but American student on a holiday, the real Glen Gebhard. What's significant is the way the French Inspector goes about setting up his counterinel operation and the way Phillips describes the counter-Carlos squad, there are ways of successful countering and uncovering sophisticated intelligence operations that are designed to be protected. The clincher to Phillips' fictional Carlos Contract is that Carlos the terrorist was actually on the CIA team set up to capture him. Ha Ha. Now where's Insperctor Clouseau when we really need him? BK BK Thanks for the Amazon link to Rearview Mirror, Bill. Am I correct that it is nonfiction and that DAP's novel is, of course, fictional? Or is Rearview Mirror also a novel? If it is nonfiction, I will go ahead and buy and read it. Farewell America also looks interesting, but it is around $40 on Amazon. Randy- I don't doubt what went on between you and the Customs office, but I was never aware of a banned book list, which would, for example, prohibit Borders from ordering a controversial book published in another country. The Internet does a nice job of rendering a lot of censorship meaningless, except, in Canada, for example, where its infamous Human Rights Commission enforces (via hearings and proceedings) Canada's hate speech penal codes. I believe that one or more Canadian bloggers have also recently been harangued by the Canada Human Rights Commission. I remember, from growing up in the 60s and 70s, allegations and rumours of book banning (e.g. Abbie Hoffman's seminal treatise of larcenious life on the lamb, Steal This Book, which, of course, was a treasured part of my personal library), but I am unaware of any statutes which regulate the importation of books. BTW, the statute of limitations of libel in most instances is either 6 months or 1 year, depending on the jurisdiction in which the publication takes place. But, even then, the remedy is a suit for damages and not government censorship. Chris Chris, Check your local bookstores, or used bookstores. I was so amazed to see Farewell America in paperback -on sale as a closeout item- that i bought it even though i have the original. But that was around 2 years ago, so i'd go with the used bookstores. You can definitely get it for less than $40. Try Alibris (online). No, Turner's book isn't a novel. I was just looking for that one myself. I don't know if you guys have this system, but if a book isn't in your local library you can request an Inter Library Loan; so my library looks for this book from every other library system in the country, they borrow the book from them and then i get the book. I must confess to my ignorance about what goes on in Canada -other than that they don't threaten to nuke Iran or, oh if i get started on this i'll just go off on a rant. I remember a scene in the movie of "Steal This Book" where he's trying to get a bookstore owner to carry his book, and the owner's refusing saying: The title is 'Steal This Book' and people are going to steal it instead of buy it. I thought that was amusing. Oh, speaking of censorship and lawsuit. We did have a book here "The Oklahoma City Bombing and the Politics of Terror" by David Hoffman. A book the government doesn't want us reading as they filed a suit against Hoffman (i forget on what exact grounds, but it was nothing based on merit) and they won. But instead of fines or penalties, the judge ordered every copy of this book to be burned. A good old-fashioned book burning; good times, good times. Regards, Randy

Jonestown was totally hincky, do we have a thread on that here? Jan, i must see this book!

That is so true. I think people really want to like America but it is just too too much. Aye, in Orange County if you're homeless the police of one city will take away whatever belongings you do have and chase you off to a different city. Of course the police dept of that city will then also send you packing. So you end up basically continually traveling this circle over and over. It's horrible. Randy

Okay, where do i start? Well there is no official "list" to show you, in fact experience has shown me that the fact the U.S. bans books is a furtive one. I didn't want to believe it either. Every now and then, a local library will have "banned book week" and they trot out the old chestnuts like "Huck Finn", etc. Personally i think that's a dog and pony show, to divert us all from exactly this right here. If you want to know why a book is banned i suggest you do the same thing i did and call the U.S. Customs office (i called the Los Angeles office). They were adimit about NOT giving me a banned list (apparently they are/were the only part of the government that didn't have computers and therefore couldn't simply call up the information -which i expressed to the lady) but were much more interested in finding out who i was. I don't know if Customs acted on their own, i'm fairly certain they wouldn't admit that to me over the phone anyway; however i was told that it is (was?) indeed "official U.S. Customs policy" -that phrase i remember- to confiscate certain books. (Really? Send me a list, i want to read them) When i asked: why? I was given a vague answer which was essentially: books that say bad things about the government. Nothing about laws regarding libel or obscenity. (Hmmm, how about books that certain elements/people in the government don't want you to see lest you get ideas in your head? Or is that exactly what she said?) I don't remember word for word a conversation that took place 20 years ago, i do remember the substance. Yes, i know books were smuggled in and available through various means. I'm not exploring the book; i'm exploring the differences between something verboten not all that long ago, and verboten no longer. Something in the equation has changed. Oh! I think the answer just occured to me. What do we have now, that we didn't have back when i was talking to Customs? The internet. It's kind of pointless to tell a person "you can't read this here" when one can hopefully go online and see it. So, that would be the change in the equation. I was thinking it was a power-structure thing, not technology. Regards, Randy

You know, i actually have "Loose Change" and i have viewed both the early and later edition from end to end; and nowhere is it said that the FDNY "are in on 9/11". In fact a group of firemen are on camera talking about feeling and hearing a series of explosions. Have you even watched it? Or do you just make stuff up and then throw it on here in an effort to waste time? I mean, discourteous doesn't even begin to cover your conduct; you're just flat out obnoxious and rude. I'm curious, is that a natural talent or is that how your parents raised you to behave toward others? I'm just curious. R.D.

Well i used to see Democracy Now on Free Speech TV, i think Goodman does a good job of trying to get people involved in listening to independent media and ignoring corporate media. She seems to take a broad-based approach as opposed to the pinpoint focus of 1 particular subject. There are other things going on the world than "9/11", and if people choose to focus elsewhere does NOT de facto mean "they agree with the party line" She did 2 programs on 9/11? Really? What are they called Len? Where and when were they broadcast? What are they called 'cause i'd like to see them. And do you mean she aired someone else's program, or that everything in these programs came from her personally? There's a bit of a difference, you do understand that don't you? YOU are going to bash Churchill and Solomon?? Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Randy

Evan, a very good question to pose; and actually rather similar to a question i posed to someone in a PM. Sid, i quite agree with your 2nd statement, as well as your entire post in general but i particularly liked that one. FWIW, i began a post here and i think i was speaking politely both in general and in response to other members; and out of the blue someone just smacks me. Is this how infighting starts? Should we have a rule for this sort of thing? And i'm sure there will be some people who disagree that i got smacked. But they may not share my concepts of courtesy and polite behavior (Evan, you know what i'm talking about, you were there). Or maybe this is how you side track an idea to keep it out of sight? Getting someone angry is a tool that can be used for a multitude of purposes. I'm just thinking out loud here. Then again, you could simply have the misfortune to run into an obnoxious person. No rules are going to stop that. I believe the Forum is set up quite well as it is. If you claim something as disinformation, you should have a source to back up your claim. And it may be important to do so, lest those who are new to a subject be taken in by false information. And those are my 2 coppers. Vale, Randy

When i first learned that "Farewell America" was banned ("one of the few books not allowed to pass through U.S. Customs" -People's Almanac) -i was stunned. 'We don't ban books', was my first thought. Later on, i called the Customs office to ask if that was true. I was told, yes it is. Being young and nieave i asked them if "Farewell America" was still on the banned book list. At that point, i couldn't get an answer and was repeatedly asked for my name and phone number "so someone could call me back with an answer". Right. Now i've seen the book in paperback at a regular book shop, as well as here in the Free Book section. And what i wonder is: what's changed between then and now? It was forbidden to be brought into the country for decades and now it's at my local shop? Something doesn't jibe. Obviously it's no longer regarded as a threat, and i'd really like to know why? Has someone died who can no longer be effected by what's said in the book? I mean, this doesn't happen for no reason. Something in the equation has changed. Doesn't anybody wonder about that? Regards, Randy

Len, Couldn't make it past your first sentence. Happily for me, i have no need to be "justified" in your eyes nor do i care one whit what you think regarding me. You fired the first shot, i had someone else read your post to make sure it wasn't my imagination. I have no interest in engaging in a war of words with you. Besides, there's no challenge in it. R.D.