1 hour ago, Kevin Balch said:

Why would it be expected that Ivy League adventurers born with a silver spoon in their mouths would be competent at covert and paramilitary operations?

The CIA didn't conduct any successful covert operations under Allen Dulles?

I guess Joe Kennedy and Robert Lovett got worked up over nothing, eh?

Richard Bissell, Deputy Director for Plans, Yale '31 (turned down Skull & Bones)

Tracy Barnes, Assistant Deputy Director for Plans, Yale '33 (Scroll & Key)

McGeorge Bundy, National Security Advisor, Yale '40 (Skull & Bones)

Either the Yale crew royally screwed the pooch with the Bay of Pigs -- or the long knives were out for Princeton Allen D.

Either way, Dulles never saw it coming.

In Denial, pg 204:  <q>

While purely speculative, any telephone dialog which could have occurred between Bissell and the president would have had to cover some very dicey issues in respect to Kennedy’s orders — including the fact that the complexity of the amphibious landing, the Navy landing craft involved, and the quantity of tanks, trucks and a massive amount of cargo had actually precluded any real chance of completing the landing and withdrawing all ships (including the command LCI’s) by dawn.  The true extent of the remaining Cuban air threat would have also had to be disclosed, no doubt raising further questions of the plans for resupply of the beachhead over the longer term, which involved extensive flights out of the Nicaraguan base, something which would almost certainly demonstrate American involvement.  The issue of the contingency plans for guerrilla action or even re-landing the force, directed as backup options by the president, might also have been raised by President Kennedy.  If that sort of dialog had occurred there is certainly a possibility that the president might have aborted the landing, as he had continually reserved the right to order.  At the point in time when Bissell and Cabell determined not to talk to President Kennedy the landing force was still some two to two and a half hours from its scheduled deployment off the transports. </q>

[Ibid, pg 158]

<q>

Based on Kennedy’s directives about lowering the visibility of the landings, Richard Bissell, apparently with Director Dulles’ support, did indeed go back to his military officers and craft a less visible plan for inserting the expeditionary force.  In only three days the daylight landing at Trinidad, a town with a port and docks available, and with unencumbered access to the Escambry Mountains, was changed to a night landing which required all men, material, and supplies to be directly on the beaches.  To some extent the plan offered more geographic protection for a lodgment given that the beaches were surrounded by swamps, with only a few undeveloped roads offering access to them.  However, the location selected moved the force well away from the mountains and effectively eliminated the guerrilla option that President Kennedy still seemed to anticipate.  It also made it significantly more difficult for any indigenous fighters to link up with the volunteer force unless they quickly broke out and moved beyond the swamps, something not anticipated in the lodgment plan...

(Ibid, pg 159)

...A very brief Joint Chiefs assessment of the new plan limited itself to declaring that in its essentials it still did appear feasible that a force could be landed and sustained for some limited time, but that the isolated location could well restrict any indigenous support.  In turn President Kennedy’s National Security Advisor McGeorge Bundy praised the CIA for the steps towards making the revised plan quiet and less “spectacular.”  He also described it as “plausibility Cuban” in its essentials, with no elaboration on that point.  To some extent Bundy appears to have fallen back on the standard concept of deniability, which had been in play since the CIA began its covert actions — if Americans are not involved in the combat then its not officially an American intervention.  </q>

On 4/18/2024 at 5:16 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Hi Cliff.  I was re reading this thread and had a second thought.  When I first read it, I thought the last line referenced JFK.  I now wonder given the first line, you weren't saying Bissell and Bundy were sabotaging Dulles were you?

That's what happened, didn't it?

During Eisenhower's second term, Joe Kennedy and Robert Lovett lobbied Ike to fire Dulles.

https://cryptome.org/0001/bruce-lovett.htm#schlesinger

<q>

[T]he increased mingling in the internal affairs of other nations of bright, highly graded young men who must be doing something all the time to justify their reason for being. ... Busy, moneyed and privileged, [the CIA] likes its "King Making." responsibility (the intrigue is fascinating -- considerable self-satisfaction, sometimes with applause, derives from "successes" -- no charge is made for "failures" -- and the whole business is very much simpler than collecting covert intelligence on the USSR through the usual CIA methods!)...

Should not someone, somewhere in an authoritative position in our government on a continuing basis, be . . . calculating . . . the long-range wisdom of activities which have entailed our virtual abandonment of the international "golden rule," and which, if successful to the degree claimed for them, are responsible in a great measure for stirring up the turmoil and raising the doubts about us that exist in many countries of the world today? . . . Where will we be tomorrow?”

</q>

Although the above denunciation of "bright, highly graded young men" was written in 1956, it certainly applied to Richard Bissell, who became CIA Deputy Director for Plans at the beginning of 1959.  Bissell pushed for the creation of the ZR/RIFLE assassination squad, and ordered hits on Patrice Lumumba, Rafael Trujillo, and Fidel Castro. 

Lovett and Bissell had worked on the Marshall Plan starting in 1948.  Both of them worked closely with Averell Harriman (Skull & Bones 1913)

After the 1960 election, Lovett and Joe Kennedy formed JFK's kitchen cabinet.  Lovett recommended Dean Rusk for State, C. Douglas Dillon for Treasury, Robert McNamara for Defense and McGeorge Bundy National Security Advisor.  Lovett and Bundy's father Harvey were Skull & Bones members who worked closely together at the Department of War during WW2.  McGeorge and his brother William were also Skull & Bones.  Bissell had been tapped to join S&B but he turned them down.

Did gaining power slacken Bob Lovett and Joe Kennedy's desire to get rid of Allen Dulles?  Did Lovett convince his fellow Yalies, Bissell and Bundy, to botch the BOP intentionally?

I can't say as a fact that the BOP failure was planned to provide a rationale for Dulles' dismissal, but in my book that scenario makes as much sense as the incompetence/inertia scenario described by ace BOP historian Larry Hancock (see In Denial: Secret Wars with Air Strikes and Tanks?)

Happy Let's Get Rid of Allen Dulles Day.

Joe Kennedy soon after the BOP: . 

"I know that outfit, and I wouldn't pay them a hundred bucks a week. It's a lucky thing they were found out early."

 I don't think luck had anything to do with it. 

Intentional sabotage by Richard Bissell and McGeorge Bundy, more like it.

14 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Maybe this would be better:

WATER COOLER

WATER COOLER - MAINSTREAM  (For those who disbelieve alternative/MAGA facts.)

 

Much better.  And a water cooler for "Those who believe alternative/MAGA facts."

Works for me.  I entertain "alternative" views on a number of subjects, none are MAGA tho.  2 threads cover it.

I think the Water Cooler needed one thread -- "Free for All."

I think many here find "MAGA" and "Mainstream" pejoratives.

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

This thread is for my Forum Tips & Tricks. It will gradually fade away from the front pages of the forum.

(This post to be deleted.)

Consider yourself contacted, Sandy.  I'd like to delete attachments on the 56 years thread.

Now what?

24 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Cliff, So you want to delete some of your links?  I was able to go there and  copy links. Go to "Political discussions", you'll see it there.

I don't know if maybe the reason you haven't posted in the water cooler is because it's kind of confusing the way it is now.

I'm trying to correct that and make it easier.

Attachments.  There's no edit function in a locked thread.

"For those who believe mainstream contemporary facts."  I find that off-putting.

Because the 56 years thread is locked, I can't edit out attachments.  Anyway around this?

5 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

Unless the blast is suppressed, once that first shot is made the clock is ticking. Shooters would would have to assume they only have only a few seconds for a kill shot before evasive actions make further shots impossible. The throat shot was what caused Connolly to turn his head to see what was happening so it was obviously not suppressed. If a shot can be precise enough to place a tranquilizer, why not just go for a head shot?

The plotters apparently had their reasons.  A first shot-kill shot must not have been 100% guaranteed.

5 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

What locations from the front or side had an unobstructed view long enough to track the target to place such a shot and has this been verified?

My bet is on the Black Dog Man position.

5 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

I realize it’s fictionalized but in “Day of the Jackal”, when the gunsmith asks the Jackal if he is going for a head shot or a body shot, he answers “head shot” and doubts that he will get more than one shot. The same thinking would apply to this situation.

But it didn't since the first shot wasn't a kill shot.

16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

IDK about the extra X-ray. 

Wouldn't your proposed scenario require it?

16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

But more like a 22 long rifle, soft lead, rounded tip that mushrooms on contact with anything.  Or a 22 hollow point, which does the same thing, more extensively. 

So in this scenario a .22 round ripped a couple inches of trachea, mushroomed, bruised the top of the lung and broke blood vessels, then left  a hairline fracture of the right T1 transverse process.  That's very little damage, eh?

16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Favorite round for the CIA for close work, I've read.  Which this would be for some, 20 yards more or less.  

What was the purpose of a non-lethal first shot?  If they wanted to paralyze the target why not use a blood soluble paralytic and not worry over removing a round?

2 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

So Cliff, what does this mean to you, why is it important?

It surely counterfeits (again) the claim that the throat wound was an exit.  Sadly, it isn't only LNers who pass that lie.

2 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I've been convinced of a throat shot from the front since the first time I saw the Zapruder film.  Did the exit of a bullet from the trachea cause the air bubble at C7/T1?  I've wondered for years it the trachea wasn't the target.  Would penetrating it prevent JFK from yelling in pain or "I'm Hit"? 

It appears to have rendered him immobile and mute.

2 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Also, Perry said when shown the death stare photo regarding the throat wound "that's not my butchery, I didn't do that."  Does this model maybe explain the need for the butchery, to remove the remains of a small caliber bullet? 

I don't believe the stare of death photo is authentic.  An extra cervical x-ray to locate a small caliber bullet?  Small like a pellet?

2 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

Wasn't there a nick in a bone somewhere here in the X-ray? 

A hairline fracture of the right T1 transverse process.  Nothing but soft tissue.

According to the cervical x-ray (authenticated by Dr. David Mantik) there was an air-pocket overlaying the right C7/T1 transverse processes.  James Gordon had worked up a model of JFK's cervical structure, so I asked him about the trajectory of such an air-pocket.

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Remember, Bret Stephens of the NYT called Russiagate affair and media coverage  "an elaborate hoax." I do not think the NYT is a Trumpified news outlet. 

My point in posting this is not to valorize Trump. It is to remind people of the lessons you know from the JFKA: Do not trust state, major party and mainstream media narratives. 

Do not trust narratives promoted by Ben Cole. 

Stephens referred to the Steele Dossier and the FBI surveillance of Carter Page as an "elaborate hoax."  Nothing came of the Page surveillance and the Steele Dossier was barely mentioned in the Mueller Report.

The most devastating political ad since "Willie Horton" in '88.

100% proof of conspiracy was presented by Michael Baden of the HSCA and James Humes in his WC testimony.

<emphasis added>

Michael Baden, Head of the HSCA Medical Panel

"In [JFK's] jacket and the underlying shirt there is a perforation of the fabric that corresponds directly with the location of the perforation of the skin of the right upper back that, the panel concluded, was an entrance gunshot perforation that entered the back of the President.  This is correspondingly seen in the shirt underneath." 

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol1/html/HSCA_Vol1_0100b.htm

The WC testimony of Commander James Humes pg 364-5 

https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh2/pdf/WH2_Humes.pdf

<emphasis added>

Mr. SPECTOR: Have you had an opportunity to examine the clothing which has been identified for you as being that worn by the President on the day of the assassination? 

Commander HUMES: Yes; yesterday, just shortly before the Commission hearing today was begun, Mr. Chief Justice, we had opportunity for the first time to examine the clothing worn by the late President. In private conversation among ourselves before this opportunity, we predicted we would find defects in the clothing corresponding with the defects which were found, of course, on the body of the late President. ..

Mr. SPECTOR: …Doctor Humes, will you describe for the record what hole, if any, is observable in the back of that garment which would be at or about the spot you have described as being the point of entry on the President’s back or lower neck. 

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. This exhibit is a grey suit coat stated to have been worn by the President on the day of his death. Situated to the right of the midline high in the back portion of the coat is a defect, one margin of which is semicircular. Situated above it just below the collar is an additional defect. It is our opinion that the lower of these defects corresponds essentially with the point of entrance of the missile at Point C on Exhibit 385. 

Mr. SPECTER. Would it be accurate to state that the hole which you have identified as being the point of entry is approximately 6 inches below the top of the collar, and 2 inches to the right of the middle seam of the coat? 

Commander HUMES. That is approximately correct, sir. This defect, I might say, continues on through the material.  </q>

The bullet holes in the clothes match the back wound -- too low to associate with the throat wound.

Here's RFKjr pimping another right-wing narrative:

You’ll Never Guess What RFK Jr. Says Really Causes Mass Shootings

https://newrepublic.com/post/180434/rfk-guns-kill-people-antidepressants

Independent presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has a reputation for promoting pseudoscience. But in a recently surfaced interview, Kennedy makes one of his wildest claims yet: that the rise in mass shootings over the past 20 years is due to antidepressants and video games. </q>

Video games are popular in Iceland.

https://www.statista.com/outlook/dmo/digital-media/video-games/iceland

So are anti-depressants.

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/mindset/2024/1/14/why-are-antidepressants-so-popular-in-iceland#:~:text=Iceland is known for its,highest rate of antidepressant use.

So are guns.

Donald Trump Panics as Poll Numbers Slide

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-polls-presidential-election-2024-joe-biden-1887777

"Americans are a stupid people by and large.  We pretty much believe what ever we're told."

"The bigger the lie, the more they believe."

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

Trump... "He ( Hungarian prime minister Victor Orban ) speaks and his people sit up at attention...I want my people to do that."

Why are people here playing this game of pretending Trump isn't as bad and dangerous as these other authoritarian dictators?

Worse than that, Joe -- it was Kim Jong Un.

This isn't a Democrat vs. Republican election -- it's Democracy vs. Dictatorship.

RFK Jr.’s New York state director says her ‘No. 1 priority’ is preventing a Biden victory

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/08/politics/rfk-jr-new-york-biden-trump/index.html

1 hour ago, Robert Morrow said:

This post has absolutely nothing to do with JFK assassination research and it should be moved to "political discussions."

No, I am not an RFK, Jr. fan.

Nor a Trump fan.

Nor a Biden fan.

Let's move this thread somewhere else.

 

I'm surprised it lasted this long.  Post it directly to the cornfield and few read it.

"This is a bad thread.  This is a very bad thread."

"Wish it into [political discussions] Anthony!"

When has a sitting President ever debated a primary opponent?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1980/05/30/kennedy-tries-again-to-lure-carter-into-debate/9aaa7e9a-1933-497a-a682-f192b66b2b96/