Joel D. Gruhn

I just went over the taped interview with Karl to refresh my memory. He recalls the Lipski Oldsmobile as white in color. I asked him (because of the Bowers testimony) if there was any blue on the car and he could not recall one way or the other. My apologies to the readers here if this seems to be an investigation in process, rather than a finished report. I am planning how it may be possible to either tie this car into the assassination, or alternatively, to rule it out. All comments and suggestions would be appreciated. jdg

Lee - Don't take it personally. I tend to play the devil's advocate sometimes, so that is why I question everything , no matter what side of the picket fence it falls on. It's all in the name of bulletproof (excuse the expression) evidence for our side. If I don't question it, someone else will. The car you are describing, and the connections made, is great research, and I am in no way trying to diminish it. I'm just making sure that we aren't "evidence leaping" by saying that the '59 Olds wagon Bowers saw MUST be the one you ran the VIN on because of the small number of '59 Olds wagons made. The number you quote was only for Super 88 wagons, and didn't include Dynamic 88 models, which was the Super 88's less expensive (and nearly identical) brother, and, I believe, sold in greater numbers, and should be included in the total number of '59 Olds wagons made that year. It may increase the odds that it's the same wagon that Bowers saw. There's also the question of whether there are easier ways to get rid of a car than to take the time, expense and exposure of a paper trail involved in shipping it off to another state to be used as a family car for several more years. Any group capable of shooting the president would probably have access to a car shredder at a local junkyard, wouldn't they? I have some feelers out in the Olds community now, and I'll try to come up with a total number, and final assembley point, soon. JWK UPDATE: I just heard back and have some numbers. 1959 Super 88 Fiesta production was 7,015. 1959 Dynamic 88 Fiesta production was 11,298. There were no 98 Fiestas. Total of 18,313 full-sized Olds wagons for 1959. Thank you for your research on the Olds - amazing what is possible to learn, especially at this late date! Re: "evidence leaping"... My statement was "It may be the same vehicle as that testified to by Lee Bowers, Jr., however until there is a bit more known about this automobile, it’s owners and its circumstances I prefer not to make that conclusion." I have presented only what was known personally to me, or what was said to me by my father. All we know is that there was A 1959 station wagon, Oldsmobile S88 shipped suspiciously from Dallas, AND NOT that THE Lee Bower's Olds was shipped. I hope my intention is clear - to uncover more information on this car and owner so as to determine IF it is more or less probable that this report correlates with Bower's. Yes, anything more should be taken with well-salted skepticism. In my opinion, new and corroborating formation might come from a number of sources: 1. Who was the historical Stewart R. Martin of Oak Cliff, and what can we learn about his views, associations, political affiliations if any, military service record etc. For example, does he show up on any lists of White Citizens Council, Minutemen, John Birch Society member, Anti-Castro or other right wing groups? Are there news articles that reference him? Arrest or court records and the like? Can his relationship to Ray Lipski be verified by any means? 2. What is known about Budget Auto, and it's owners(s) politically or otherwise. 3. Is there any way of tracing ownership back before Budget Auto? 4. is there any way to go from the VIN to the paint color of this car? How many white or white/blue two toned cars were produced? I will go over the tape I have as I believe Karl made a comment as to the car color. ------------- "Any group capable of shooting the president would probably have access to a car shredder at a local junkyard, wouldn't they?” In the same way, i.e. avoiding "evidence leaping" I must ask what the evidence is that the apparent conspiracy was organized as a functional group, with probable access to a car shredder at a junkyard. Is it not also possible that a conspiracy could be comprised of independent and difficult to organize characters, operating with compartmentalized understandings of what was happening, who encouraged and used local resources and people, who themselves were often only marginally in control? /jdg

Sorry to say neither name is familiar. /jdg

Thank you Lee... I would be gratefull for any further information you have, to be shared with other forum members, including especially any information on, or photo of. Martin. I cannot rule out Charmichaels as being the final resting place for the Olds... It was large and convienient, however Karl was explicit that the junkyard was WEST of Mound, and Charmichaels is a few miles east. He also spoke of wanting to go "out there" and look for the car. In that area, out is west and in is east. I have never heard of Alsos or any other project name. Karl spoke of being driven around Munich, and finding officers at home, who were scared of reprisal or trial, and so were happy to cooperate. I do not believe his WWII service is relevent to the car and Martin however. Interesting it may be, personally I see it as a bit of a diversion. I am not aware of any particular reason he used Ray, outside of the context of their working relationship. jdg

Thank you for your patience. This is my synopsis of the story that my late father, Karl Gruhn, of Mound, Minnesota told me regarding a 1959 Oldsmobile station wagon that was surreptitiously sent from Dallas / Oak Cliff after the Kennedy assassination. It may be the same vehicle as that testified to by Lee Bowers, Jr., however until there is a bit more known about this automobile, it’s owners and its circumstances I prefer not to make that conclusion. The Olds under discussion was covertly sent out of Dallas by flatbed railcar after the assassination as a free gift to my father’s employee, a Mr. Ray Lipski, on condition of anonymity. It was sent by Mr. Lipski’s stepfather, Mr. Stewart R. Martin, a resident of 2736 Canary, Oak Cliff, TX. Martin was a person who frequently expressed anti-Kennedy sentiments prior to the assassination such as “Kennedy should be shot.” I, Joel Gruhn, have personally seen this automobile in the mid 1960’s, ridden in it, and knew Ray and his wife, Donna, but knew nothing of its history at the time. ----------------------------- After returning from WWII, my father Karl settled in the small town of Mound, Minnesota, a western suburb of Minneapolis. There he started “Minnetonka Furniture” a small business of retail furniture and carpeting sales. One of his employees, and a friend, in the 1960’s was Ray Lipski, who helped with deliveries and did the carpeting installations. Karl recalled that approximately 1-2 years after the Kennedy assassination, Ray received a phone call from his father in Dallas, asking Ray to return the call from a public pay phone, i.e. not from Ray’s home, to a specific number in Dallas, at a specific date and time. Ray was assured that he would be reimbursed for the long distance toll. When Ray returned the call, he was told he would be getting an Oldsmobile station wagon, free of charge, provided he keep quiet as to how he received the car and where it came from. The car was to be shipped from Dallas by rail, and Ray was to receive it in Minneapolis. This was done, and subsequently Ray received $10 by mail to cover the cost of the toll. Ray was of course pleased to receive a free car so well suited to carrying rolls of carpeting and his installation tools. His employment was occasional, and he was a man of very modest means. When he received the car it would have been substantially newer than Karl’s and cause for comment. Typical of his profession and time, Ray was paid in cash and no employment records were kept. Because the car was free, was shipped from Dallas by rail from a Kennedy hater, and arranged for by means presumably intended to counter telephone surveillance, both my father and Ray suspected it had been involved in foul play. Unbeknownst to Ray, Karl photocopied the title and transfer records, keeping them in his office safe until late in his life when he gave them to me. Karl said his reasons for not letting Ray know and for not bringing this forward earlier was “I didn’t want Ray or Donna to be hassled – people were getting killed.” The car eventually was sold to a small junkyard west of Mound. Note: It is unlikely that the junkyard was Carmichael’s Salvage, Excelsior, MN, which was considerably east of Mound. ---------------------------- Subsequent to hearing this story, I have done some minimal investigation, believing that the affiliations of the prior owner, Stewart R. Martin, would possibly point in an interesting direction. The similarity of that name to the alias of Edward Stewart Suggs of New Orleans, Jack Stewart Martin, is at the least curious. I have called the Dallas Public library, and been told by the reference desk that the name Stuart Martin appears in the 1963 Dallas City Directory at the Oak Cliff address shown, 2736 Canary, occupation vitamin sales as I recall. I would certainly appreciate a copy of this reference to confirm the above, if there is anyone reading this that frequents that library. I am also intrigued by the coincidence of the address of Stewart Martin, on Canary in Oak Bluff, and the general direction chosen by Oswald to flee after leaving his rooming house on the afternoon of the assassination. ----------------- In a spirit of full disclosure, I would like to mention that Karl’s service in WWII, which has been referred to in this forum. He was educated as a journalist, and fluent in Prussian accented German, which came from growing up in a Lutheran Minister’s family in Milwaukee – all were forbidden to speak English at home. During the war, he was selected for Army Intelligence, and after training in Colorado was based in England as a photographic technician, staff sergeant, in a photo recon group associated with the 8th Army Air Corps. Subsequent to D-day and the combat loss of two brothers, he was offered a job stateside. He chose more active duty on the continent, typically as an interrogator / analyst. After the fall of Munich, he was among the first group of intelligence staff to enter and inventory the contents of the Nazi party headquarters. In the days following he was an interrogator of German Army and Intelligence officers in that area. The results of those interrogations disclosed the German files on Soviet Russia, secreted in nearby caves, which were flown directly from Munich to Washington in transport planes fitted with additional fuel tanks to make the trip non-stop. Karl was offered OCS and a commission if he would stay in Munich and help with the work of integrating the German-US network, but having lost two brothers he held deeply pacifist beliefs, and was anxious to rejoin his wartime bride. To the best of my knowledge, he had no further contact with the people he had contact with in the service, some of whom ultimately formed the nucleus of the CIA. I am happy to answer questions in this forum to the best of my limited ability. Joel Gruhn, Barrington, RI

This post has been moved by Mr. Gruhn to his bio details thread.