Bill Simpich

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_Oswald_Legend_3.html - Part 3 is now up at MFF. This has been revised to offer what I consider a good thread of analysis on the role of ONI and the State Dept in the LHO renunciation story and that Oswald did not actually threaten to expose classified info - contrary to my original belief. I also follow up on Peter Dale Scott’s finding that the Marines committed fraud in the flim flam they used to downgrade his discharge - and the Navy may have done something similar in hiding from Fred Korth the entire discharge battle.

I hope his family will lead a round of confessions. Otherwise, he will be spending a loooong time in purgatory. He told a bunch of whoppers - in his mind, for the greater good. G_d help us. G-d may spend some time before -e gets around to helping him.

Here's the following segment on Mamantov's testimony from Peter Dale Scott's Dallas '63 (pp. 195-196): "As summarized by the FBI, Mamantov's account of Marina's Russian testimony linked it to a gun owned by Oswald in the Soviet Union: 'MARINA OSWALD advised that LEE HARVEY OSWALD owned a rifle which he used about two years ago. She observed what she presumed to be the same rifle in a blanket in the garage at (Ruth Paine's residence)...MARINA OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, she had been shown a rifle in the Dallas Police Department...She stated that it was a dark color like the one she had seen, but she did not recall the sight.' "Mamantov's 'Phase-One' assassination clue was later discarded, even though it had supporting evidence at the time, also discarded. ""At the time the story was supported; in particular there was another discarded 'Phase-One' story, an army cable from an officer in the Dallas Police Department intelligence section, who like Crichton and Lumpkin was also in Army Intelligence: 'Following is further information on Oswald, Harvey Lee (sic)...Assistant Chief Don Stringfellow, Intelligence Section, Dallas Police Department, notified 112th INTC (Army Intelligence) Group, this Headquarters, that information obtained from Oswald revealed that he had defected to Cuba  in 1959 and is a card-carrying member of the Communist Party.' "This cable was sent on November 22 from the Fourth Army Command in Texas to the US Strike Command at Fort MacDill in Florida, the base poised for a possible retaliatory attack against Cuba. "Today the cable utterly lacks credibility, but at the time there was supporting evidence for each of Stringfellow's two points. "Stringfellow may have heard Oswald was a Communist from his boss in the Intelligence Section, Jack Revill, who reported on November 22 in a memo to his boss, Special Services chief W. P. Gannaway that Oswald "was a member of the Communist Party". "We now know that a probable false "Oswald" did present a "Communist Party card" ( presumably also false) at the Cuban consulate in Mexico City. (Stringfellow, Revill and Gannaway were all reportedly in Army Intelligence, i. e., Reserve." "And the false story that Oswald had visited Cuba would seem to be vaguely corroborated by what Hoover told Robert Kennedy on the afternoon of November 22: 'I related that Oswald went to Russia and stayed three years, came back to the United States in June 1962, and went to Cuba on several occasions but would not tell us what he went to Cuba for.' "Hoover's statement is one more indication that...there may have been an earlier file in circulation, perhaps on a 'Harvey Lee Oswald' to which he and possibly Stringfellow may have had access. "The discarded 'Phase-One' story from Stringfellow in Dallas is of interest, and should persuade us to look at the discarded Mamantov 'Phase-One' story. His specific details - that Marina said she had seen a rifle that was dark and scopeless - were confirmed in an affidavit signed by Marina and Mamantov, (24 WH 219) that was taken by DPD officer B. L. Senkel (24 WH 249). They were confirmed again by Ruth Paine, who witnessed the Mamantov interview (3 WH 82). They were confirmed again the next night in an interview of Marina by Secret Service agent Mike Howard, translated by Mamantov's close friend Peter Gregory. (To be continued.)

Robert, that is good stuff about industrial security. Since Peter doesn't mention this part about Ilya Mamantov's roommate and mother-in--law - let me share it here - she was a Russian woman named Dorothy Gravitis. Ruth Paine testified that she took a summer course at the University of Pennsylvania in 1957, two Berlitz courses in Philadelphia in 1958 and 1960, some private lessons with Mrs. Dorothy Gravitis, (I think she paid for two at Berlitz, and then they came friends and had some home sessions) and the 1959 summer course at Middlebury.[ Dorothy told the Warren Commission that Ruth told her that she thought Lee was an undercover agent for the Soviets. Ruth denied it. My point is not that Ruth said it - but that Dorothy believed it. She said it under oath. I find Dorothy Gravitis fascinating. She was born in Latvia, in the late 1800s, she was 74 when she testified. Her husband was sent to Siberia during the war and died there many years later. She and Mamantov and her daughter lived together since 1943, and from 1945-1949 in a displaced persons (DP) camp. She saw things I can only imagine. With all that said - Do you want her son-in-law as your translator in a hot situation? Ilya Mamantov actually testified with Dorothy - because of her age. Both of them are very articulate. Ilya explains to the WC that Marina and Dorothy talked about Lee, and Marina told Dorothy that Lee was "ideinyi" - a very particular concept - one who aspires to the ideals of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, but is not yet a member. When Marina told Dorothy that LHO was "ideinyi" - Ilya Mamantov says: "When mother heard this word from Marina, she couldn't talk to her anymore or ask her any more questions. "Because this stage of the person becoming a full time member Communist was most dangerous for the people in Russia or in Latvia, or in the Soviet Union." WC attorney David Belin: "What do you mean by the most dangerous?" Dorothy takes over from Ilya Mamantov here: "I mean that this is the most dangerous stage, because this person - or during this stage - they are spying on other people. They are spying on other people to gain personal reward from other communistic people." Ruth wanted to bring Marina by Dorothy's place - Dorothy made it clear that Marina was welcome but not Lee. Dorothy was convinced that Lee was in the final stage of trying to join the Communist Party - just from what Marina had said to her - and that description convinced her that Oswald was a spy and she didn't want him spying on her. I'm not saying I agree with Dorothy. She never met Lee Oswald. I am saying that Dorothy knew that more was going on - just from talking with Marina. Dorothy confirmed something else I had always suspected (Marina's testimony is too convoluted for me to take in) - why did Lee want Marina to go back to the USSR (and he wanted to go too): Ruth told Dorothy "She was pregnant...Lee said that he doesn't have money to pay doctor bills, but he had enough money to send her back to the Soviet Union." Dorothy told Ruth to be more careful. Ruth said, "Don't worry." Dorothy told the Warren Commission: "Mrs. Paine is an American woman, and she is very naive." There's someone who knew right away that Ruth Paine was not always the smartest person in the room.

Steve Thomas' post about North American Aviation breaking ground in Dallas in 1940 shows how came to town besides aviation electronics employees like Oswald...any big enterprise like North American has to hire a lot of industrial security. What kind of bad apples congregate around industrial security? Spooks and grifters - i.e., Mafia and organized crime. Dallas had more than its share of both. Dallas had more spooks and organized crime figures than almost anywhere else in the Southwestern United States. The Special Services Bureau dealt with them in equal measures: Its focus was on subversives, narcotics, and prostitution. Is it any wonder that Jack Ruby hung out around their office all the time? Peter Dale Scott has several good narratives about that weekend in Dallas - here's the first one - I will post several of them in the days ahead for easy reference. From his book Dallas '63, pp. 194-197: "Two men in Dallas who functioned as part of the communications network of the Office of Emergency Planning (OEP), the agency renamed in 1968 as the Office of Emergency Preparedness (to which McCord was attached), and renamed again in 1982 as the National Program Office (NPO, for which Oliver North was the action officer.) "These two men in Dallas were Winston Lawson, the Secret Service advance man who from the lead car of the motorcade was in charge of the Secret Service radio channels operating in the motorcade... "...And John (Jack) Crichton, the army intelligence reserve colonel who with Deputy Dallas Police Chief George Lumpkin contributed to a 'Phase-One' story, when they selected the Russian interpreter for Marina Oswald's first DPD interview. "Jack Creighton is of interest because he and DPD deputy chief George Lumpkin of the 488th Army Intelligence Reserve Unit (two friends...of Col. Frank Brrandstetter as well of each other) were responsible for choosing a Russian interpreter for Marina Oswald from the right-wing Russian community. "This man was Ilya Mamantov, who translated for Marina Oswald at her first DPD interview on Nov. 22. What she allegedly said in Russian in this interview (as mistranslated by Mamantov) was later used to bolster what I have called the 'Phase-One' story, still promoted from some CIA sources, that Russia and/or Cuba were behind the assassination."

No, Sandy, but what I am saying is that when discussing a possible "Oswald Project" - that's "not supposed to exist" - it's difficult to enter it into an evidentiary database or to use it in any context or any discussion without knowing the origin of the story and corroborating evidence that supports the story. Furthermore, that kind of evidence puts a much greater burden of proof on the person who is relying on it. That's not to say that kind of evidence isn't relevant or that it can't be used. But I don't feel like I can make a statement like "Oswald was an agent" without providing a pretty accurate yardstick so someone else can judge its reliability. The evidence that Oswald was some kind of asset to people working in intelligence is a lot less of a burden. We are never going to find a document saying that Oswald is an agent of the United States, as Jim says. But documents and contemporaneous statements are given higher credence of reliability all over the world that contentions about projects that aren't supposed to exist. It doesn't seem fair to me, but it's not about fairness. It's about the strength of evidence. That's all I'm saying. When someone says that Oswald was "deep cover" - I mean, of course that echoes the way I feel - but it's only right to want to know the basis of the statement. None of us should feel defensive about saying what we believe - but on some level, we are here to persuade others. Otherwise - in my opinion - and this is not directed at anyone participating in this informative thread - all this research and discussion is just a parlor room game.

Sandy, Oh yes, I agree with you that many intelligence operations don't exist on paper. A number of the descriptions of intelligence operations are inaccurate. My approach, generally speaking, is to focus on the operations that we have on paper, and can corroborate. The critical research community could cover a lot of territory if we took greater interest in the documents that are sitting in the National Archives and elsewhere. Many of us have only read books. Many of us focus on the documents that support our point of view. Most of us, including me who has spent a lot of time, have not read most of the documents on the JFK case in the Archives that have already been released. I believe that the better our information is corroborated, the sturdier is the foundation that we are working with, before we delve into operations that don't exist on paper.

James - I know a number of families have fake wedding days for just this reason! The documents show that the marriage was 4/30/61 and June's birthdate is 2/15/62, which adds up to nine and a half months. Robert - This website quotes Joan Mellen's statement in her book "Our Man In Haiti" (I can't find my copy, her research is good) that Burris created the Cuban Venezuelan Oil Voting Trust (CVOVT). What about Crichton - and others? In Family of Secrets, pp. 79-82, Russ Baker writes that "by 1950 (George de Mohrenschildt) was working with his former boss, Pantepec president Warren Smith, on the latter's new firm called the Cuban-Venezuelan Oil Voting Trust company (CVOVT). In passing, de Mohrenschildt mentioned to the Commission that the CVOVT had managed to obtain leases covering nearly half of Cuba."...(WC counsel Albert Jenner, of course, couldn't have cared less.) "The CVOVT never amounted to much besides promising reports and modest production. Still it became a Wall Street darling. Through now almost completely forgotten, on many days in the mid-1950s it was one of the four or five most actively traded issues on the American Stock Exchange... "The Empire Trust Company, a New York-based bastion of power and wealth, appears to have played a key role in the financing of the (CVOVT)... "...Empire entrusted its affairs in Texas to Baker Botts, the law firm of James Baker's family...another Empire Trust director was Lewis MacNaughton...the employer of George Bouhe, the Russian emigre who would later introduce George de Mohrenschildt to Lee Harvey Oswald. Perhaps the most curious of the Empire Trust figures was Jack Crichton, a longtime company vice president (from 1953-1962). Crichton...quickly became a go-to guy for numerous powerful interests seeking a foothold in the energy arena...he was involved with George de Mohrenschildt in his oil exploration venture in pre-Castro Cuba... "(After Castro took power) on 11/22/59 the New York Times reported that the new Cuban government had approved a law that would reduce the size of claims for oil exploration and halt large-scale explorations by private companies...among other things, the new law put an end to the go-go days of the Cuban Venezuelan Oil Voting Trust Stock...summed up rather neatly in William A. Doyle's syndicated advice column...8/14/61: "...The trouble (with CVOVT) is spelled C-a-s-t-r-o...(The CVOVT's) chief cause of grief came when the Communist-oriented Cuban government refused to extend its concession to explore for oil That just about wrecked this outfit...you'll be lucky if you can get 10 cents a share."

Sandy, Let me offer my thinking on the question about why Oswald's discharge was downgraded. Generally, an agency takes care of its own. If you are part of the team, they will fall on their swords for you. This is why all agencies fight so hard in court to protect their informants and their identities. If their informant's identity is blown or if the informant goes to jail for their actions, they will lose not only that informant but many other informants. The same principle goes with agents. It's one thing if an agent is killed in the field, some things are not preventable. But having his discharge downgraded to an undesirable discharge by the Marine Corps? Cutting off his access to employment, the GI Bill and more? Especially when one soft word to a higher-up that this man was doing his patriotic duty? I don't agree. The agency would generally protect its man, whether it liked the man or not. Oswald was used and then thrown away like used kleenex. And his status as a man with an undesirable discharge became used as his alleged motive for killing the President. Fred Korth, the secretary of the navy, made the final decision on his discharge - and he knew the Oswald family - Korth went to jury trial in a divorce case against Marguerite. Korth and the ONI had quite a paper trail with Oswald - like Angleton's CI-SIG and the Mexico City CIA station, he and the ONI must have been horrified when Oswald was accused of killing the President. Is it any wonder there are so many ONI documents missing? Robert, the information on Burris is fascinating - as you say, he was one of LBJ's right-hand men, could you provide the links that support your facts? It's hard to wrap your mind around the deep things you are saying without any documents to understand the context. Thanks!

Thanks, Steve. This shows that LHO gave the Passport Office a big heads-up that he planned to go to Russia - and that he planned to go the Schweitzer School for college - although it didn't start until April 1960. This has been one of the bases of my thinking that going to Russia was not a "sure thing". I think he got called into duty when he left France and made a beeline to Helsinki when Robert Webster reappeared and made it clear that he was defecting. Webster was not the master of his fate - not by a long shot. And, granted that Oswald's Russian skills were very good - he seems very manipulated to me. The big manipulation that he was able to do was pretend he couldn't speak Russian. And that just made him appear more powerless.

Paul, the Lykes ship definitely needs a closer look. There was just a few passengers on the freighter. Here's the passenger list. One was Billy Joe Lord, about Oswald's age. By 1977, Lord was a Texas journalist with the Midland Reporter-Telegram. He wrote Jimmy Carter about his concerns about CIA being engaged in a coup d'etat with the JFK case. He said that he and others could testify that the CIA did not do a "real investigation" into Oswald "the defector of 1959". Lord then met with the FBI and said (note: Angleton's buddy) Edward Epstein (who wrote the horrifying Legend about this case, based on tips from Angleton), Henry Hurt (who in the eighties wrote a good book on the JFK case) and others at Reader's Digest were leaning hard on Lord for an interview, and he didn't like what was going on around him with a home break-in while in Japan (his papers were rifled thru, nothing was stolen) and similar weird-xxxx activities. Even George Bush, Jr. got dragged into trying to make him talk! Passenger George Church had a military background - recently retired (he could have been a spy, keeping an eye on Oswald!) - and didn't like LHO. He was shook up when the engineer said he thought Oswald was a "smart kid". The Lykes company had a spooky history - this is from Joan Mellen: Michael J. P. Malone...conferred regularly with CIA’s David Atlee Phillips, whom he gave a code name: Phillips was his “Chivas Regal Friend.” Malone, Kleberg, and Phillips, along with a high-ranking Western Hemisphere officer named Radford Herbert, discussed which Latin American countries deserved loans from the United States, and which did not. Colombia and Argentina were high on their list. Chile was low and was to be refused loans because they had voted against the U.S. at Punta del Este. These men referred to John F. Kennedy as if he were a child. His nickname was “Little Boy Blue.” JFK was “soft” and naïve. Bobby Kennedy they termed “a strong-minded individual and if he made a decision would carry it out.” Chivas Regal and Radford Herbert both advised Malone and Kleberg to work on Bobby. Kleberg also funded CIA’s front for labor in Latin America (“The American Institute For Free Labor Development” aka AIFLD) and opposed the Alliance for Progress. Malone met with Robert Kennedy and was pleased to learn that he planned to persuade his brother, the president, to fire Arthur Schlesinger. In 1960, Kleberg also contributed money to a plot to assassinate Fidel Castro, where he joined with a Mr. Lykes of Lykes Steamship Company and a United Fruit Company representative. Their idea was to assassinate Fidel and Raul Castro, also Che Guevara, and then take over the Cuban Government and place at its head one Francisco Caneas. The MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD describing this plan is titled: Cuban Revolutionary Activity in Florida and is dated 15 January 1960.

Sorry, John, I am familiar with the stories of the Tippit phone call and Oswald being the son of a Hungarian immigrant. I think there are not enough data points on either one to do anything with it that I know of.

Oops - double posting by mistake! John, on Sandy's opinion - I just don't see why an agent would be treated like dirt like Oswald was - can anyone explain that? On your question about Oswald's diversion when he got to Europe - my thinking is that he was kept "on ice" until the military found out Webster's location - that's why a 2 week freighter right was the perfect way to keep LHO on ice - that whole period of time, no one knew where Oswald was - within a day after they found that out, as I recall, Oswald got off the freighter before it reached its final destination and headed straight for Helsinki. They scoured the commercial flights, and couldn't figure out how he got to Helsinki. The best speculation is that it was by military transport - that's why there was no trace.

This is a response to John Butler's two questions - how did Oswald know how to go through Finland to obtain an instant visa into the Soviet Union? And why did Oswald take a freighter to Europe? The following passage from my book State Secret addresses both questions, and illustrates Webster's roles as an asset and a dangle. It also sheds light on why Oswald's activities should be examined in the context of Webster's defection. My next post will address Oswald's roles as an asset, a dangle, and a wannabe spy. From State Secret, Chapter 1: On September 4, Oswald filled out a passport application saying that he was leaving the US on 9/21/59 by boat. He would be gone for four months to attend school at the Albert Schweitzer College and elsewhere. He indicated that he would begin his tour in Cuba, travel through Europe all the way to Finland, and then cross into Russia. Actually, Oswald was not scheduled to attend Albert Schweitzer College until April 1960. Oswald's statement about Cuba, Finland and Russia was a red flag for the counterintelligence agents that routinely review passport applications. Right before Webster’s disappearance, he was told by the Soviets that they would accept him as a citizen if he would teach them how to make the Rand spray gun demonstrated at the American Exhibition. When he agreed to show them, the Soviets agreed to provide him with citizenship. One of Jim Angleton’s deputies testified that Webster was regarded as a loss because of Soviet interest in Webster's knowledge about the "specifications of a nozzle that prepared plastic in a particular fashion". During this summer, Webster had been enjoying the attentions of a Russian woman named Vera. Webster had been suffering with marital problems back in the United States. Jim Rand believed that the Soviets were using Vera to convince Webster to stay "in order to gain his knowledge of (the) plastics and synthetics industry". Webster knew a lot about the technology that the Soviets wanted for their military and space programs, in order to fabricate their missiles and engines. All signs are that the US wanted the inside baseball on the state of development of Soviet missiles and military hardware - Webster learned during his stay that "Soviet plastics technologies on a commercial and application basis are about ten years behind those of the US." This letter between two FBI counterintelligence chiefs is revealing: "Subject does not have access to any classified data, but the Rand Development Corporation has expressed interest in his welfare because of his peculiar knowledge of the plastics and fiberglass industry. The U.S. is ahead of the Russians in the plastic and fiberglass field, and, therefore, the Soviets would have a logical interest in the subject's remaining in the Soviet Union. We also know that the Soviets have requested information concerning fiberglass and plastics through our double agents." Webster’s “peculiar knowledge” was not going to make up a ten year disadvantage between the US and the USSR in this field. However, as we will see, Webster became an invaluable source to US intelligence on the state of Soviet technology in these fields. Webster disappeared after he got his 20 day travel visa While Webster negotiated with the Soviets, Lee Harvey Oswald received a dependency discharge based on his claim that he was going to take care of his mother, who was supposedly injured months earlier by a falling candy box, and arrived in Fort Worth on September 12, 1959. He would still have to put in some reserve duty before his discharge was final. After visiting his mother for three days, he abruptly left her and arrived in New Orleans by the 16th. Her story was that Lee was going to resume work at an import-export business. Right after Webster got a 20 day visa for travel around the USSR, he disappeared on the 10th with Vera instead of leaving the USSR on the 14th as planned. Air Force intelligence described his trip as a 20 day Intourist tour of Kiev, a tourism agency firmly in the hands of the KGB. During Webster’s disappearance, Oswald traveled from New Orleans to Europe by freighter On September 16th, rather than return to the world of import-export, Oswald used his knowledge of that world to chart an unusual course by taking a slow boat to Europe. Oswald obtained a ticket to go to Le Havre, France by freighter for the next day. Although he wrote that he intended to leave on the 21st, he actually left on the 17th. Oswald skipped his planned trip to Cuba. Was it because Webster had disappeared? For a man on a slow boat, Oswald was in some kind of hurry. No one can prove that Oswald was working as an intelligence agent, or if he was being manipulated in some way. However, the evidence indicates that it was one or the other. Oswald’s trip was not a coincidence. What we do know is that in the eyes of intelligence, it was far better for Oswald to take a slow boat then to fly by plane. Throughout the summer of 1959, CIA officer “William Costille” and KGB officer Gregory Golub – under their cover as embassy consuls – were going out to Helsinki nightclubs for a few drinks, some flirtation with their female companions, and testing each other and their dates as possible defection targets. They would muse about ways to make it easier for Americans to obtain an instant visa to cross the border and enter the Soviet Union.[ 3 ] It was too early for Oswald to enter the Soviet Union. Webster's whereabouts were unknown. Nor was it known whether Costille had been successful in lining up an instant visa for Americans. On September 30, just as his visa was about to expire, Webster wrote the American embassy and told them that he was staying in the USSR. On October 6, a diplomat at the American embassy sent a memo to the State Department, tipping them off that Webster was defecting. The memo included a handwritten memo sizing up Webster, possibly from a photograph, describing him as "hgt 10.5, light, looks 165". The State Department memo quickly reached the top echelon at the FBI. When Webster surfaced, Oswald jumped off the boat and got an instant visa to the USSR Oswald cut short his trip once Webster turned up. Oswald disembarked in France on October 8. Oswald did not stop by the Albert Schweitzer school. Oswald was now on the move. On October 8, a memo from the CIA’s Soviet Union division revealed that all components involved with the Webster affair were swearing up and down that he was not their agent. All signs are that Webster’s movements were being choreographed by Air Force intelligence, whether Webster knew it or not. By October 11, Rand flew to the USSR to visit Webster, who was in the hospital for reasons that are still unclear. Jim Rand could not get any information, and was so frustrated that he referred to the American consul Richard Snyder as a "jerk". Oswald sped to Helsinki and arrived during the weekend of October 10. Oswald stayed at the Klaus Korki and Torni hotels, places that the CIA referred to as the local “pink hotels” - apparently because socialist travelers were attracted to them. The impecunious Oswald lined up his stay through an expensive Intourist package, even though his passport application said that he would not be using any such service. The KGB was watching Oswald. Shortly before Oswald’s arrival, we see memos with the indicators REDCAP and sometimes including LCIMPROVE. REDCAP was used for monitoring the activities of Soviet officials and installations outside of the USSR, and also as a defector inducement program. David Murphy, chief of the USSR division, described REDCAP as a "defector inducement program" in his book Battleground Berlin. LCIMPROVE was used for counterintelligence operations directed at the USSR. A REDCAP memo recounts how CIA consul William Costille gave his counterpart Gregory Golub two tickets to see Leonard Bernstein in an upcoming concert.[ 4 ] This was in appreciation for Golub’s recent assurance in a REDCAP/LCIMPROVE memo that any American who came to Helsinki with their papers in order would be granted a visa “in a matter of minutes” by the Soviets.[ 5 ] When a couple of Americans sought instant visas on Costille’s advice, Golub called Costille and told him that “he would give them their visas as soon as they made advance Intourist reservations. When they did this, Golub immediately gave them the visas.” A few days later, Costille gave Golub the Bernstein tickets. Golub had lunch with Costille on the 13th to say thank you. Oswald applied for his visa on the 13th and received his visa in record time by the 14th, obtained in one day rather than the customary wait of a week or more in Helsinki. Helsinki was considered to be the quickest place in the world for a foreigner to receive a Soviet visa. He then boarded a train, arriving in Moscow on October 16.

Yes, it was the radio debate with Ed Butler and Carlos Bringuier. - Bill Stuckey and Bill Slatter are the commentators on Conversation Carte Blanche. I love how Oswald gets Butler to change the question from "are you a communist" to "are you a Marxist", and Oswald says "yes", Butler takes the bait and asks "what's the difference?" Oswald says: "The difference is primarily the the difference between a country like Guinea, Ghana, Yugoslavia, China or Russia. Very, very great differences. Differences we appreciate by giving aid, let's say, to Yugoslavia in the sum of a hundred million or so dollars a year. "...Many parties, many countries are based on Marxism. Many countries such as Great Britain display very socialistic aspects or characteristics. I might point to the socialized medicine of Britain." If I was a fight commentator - I would now have LHO ahead on points. The commentator calls time out! When they return, Stuckey asks if he had a government subsidy. Here is the audiotape translation: "I worked in Russia. I was under the protection of the - of the - that is to say, I was not under the protection of the American government but, that is, I was at all times considered an American citizen. I did not lose my American citizenship." Here is the Warren Commission version: "I worked in Russia. I was not under the protection of the, that is to say, I was not under the protection of the American government, but as I was at all times considered an American citizen I did not lose my American citizenship." The crucial sentence is doctored in several places to reduce the sting of Oswald's Freudian slip - admitting that he was under the protection of the American government. The next Q & A is similarly doctored: Here's the audiotaped version: Q: "Did you say you wanted to (lose your American citizenship) at one time, though? What happened? A: "Well, it's a long drawn out situation in which permission to live in the Soviet Union granted to a foreign resident is very rarely given." In the Warren Commission version, the "very" in "very rarely granted" is deleted from the transcript. There's more subtle differences - and someone else could probably find still more. I don't see any reason to assume that these alterations in the Warren Commission transcript are accidental.

Sandy, The more data points we have, the closer we come to being able to make a reasonable factual finding, as opposed to reasonable speculation. I remain reluctant to go past my analysis that he was a wannabe agent (as well as an asset & a dangle) without more solid evidence. An example of the problem we still face is that reasonable people like you and others believe he sincerely wanted to live in a communist country. I don't. He came from a military family, and I believe he was a liberal, and I believe he wanted to check out the USSR, but I do not believe he wanted to live there for good. Where my thinking is at - at this point, subject to change - is that I agree with Steve, the Soviets may have reached out to him in Japan, and he came back to finish the deal. I think we may be looking at a military fake defector program like the possible Navy Code 30 program Donald Moneir talked about - get a copy of Gary Hill's The Other Oswald about Robert Webster, or either of my books, for more background - I will be posting on this in the next couple chapters of the Legend series. Webster was dangled to the Soviets by the Air Force, offering advances in rocketry. Oswald was dangled to the Soviets, offering tips on US electronics capabilities and the U-2. Who did the dangling of Oswald? My first vote is ONI - second vote is Air Force, third vote is Marine Intelligence. CIA is further down the list. The State Dept was critical in building the legend, helping Oswald on his tightrope walk on two different subjects. 1. Oswald couldn't threaten to offer something "too classified" - he might face criminal charges - he kept it vague, saying he had "something of interest". 2. Oswald waved around his citizen renunciation papers on two separate occasions - Oct 31 - Nov. 3- signed and very specific -- begging the State Dept to simply accept his renunciation, but he knew that they wouldn't accept them. Snyder kept saying, "I need my secretary to type up a more formal renunciation document, and I need Oswald to come in and sign that. No preparation of a more formal was ever done, and Oswald never signed this imaginary "final version". When Hoover was concerned that Oswald was being impersonated - he wrote the State Dept intelligence unit, and he copied ONI. Why didn't he copy CIA, or other military intelligence agencies. To me, this is highly significant. I believe Hoover knew that Oswald was their guy. Webster was left in the gutter - a broken man in many ways, and without his citizenship. Should we call Webster an agent? How? Dangle, yes. Asset, yes. Victim of a honey trap scheme, not an agent. Oswald wasn't much better off. If he was an agent - as opposed to a manipulated young man - why didn't they take better care of him. This is abusive conduct by his handlers. If he had dedicated two years of his life to his country as an agent, he would not have been worried about criminal charges and he would not have his honor, his income and his future dragged in the dirt. He would have known that he had a wall of protection around him. Instead, he had to beg the State Dept to lend him a few hundred bucks. People point to how fast he paid it back. Somebody did him a favor, but that's not a very big favor. Should we call Oswald an agent? How? Dangle, yes. Asset, yes. Victim of his own adventuring? Look at the last year of his life - with Fred Korth, of all people, going thumbs down on his fate.

Let's stay with the coaching discussion for a moment - James offered a few examples of coaching above - I do the same here. I think it is very useful for all of us thinking hard about Oswald's role in the USSR. I may have to step back for a couple days with other commitments - but please think hard about this evidence below, I think it reveals a lot about the motivations of the agencies, as well as Oswald himself. I have several examples right off the bat of how I believe Oswald was coached: 1. As stated in my previous post, someone diverted LHO to Helsinki, where he was able to obtain an instant visa to get inside the USSR - consul William Costille had just opened that door up weeks earlier, and LHO was one of the first Americans - if not the first American - to use it. This kind of instant visa to the USSR was absolutely unheard of - and for Oswald to lead the way is incredible. It looks like the Americans wanted him to have a dramatic entry. They wanted to shake the Sovs up. 2. On 10/31/59, at his first trip to the American embassy, Oswald handed State Dept consul Richard Snyder a carefully written handwritten document (but undated) stating that he was requesting for his American citizenship to be revoked, and that it was being "made only after the longest and most serious considerations." On 11/3/59, at his second visit to the embassy, Oswald handed Snyder another handwritten document stating that he had the legal right to renounce his citizenship - I do not believe he came up with that on his own - he needed coaching on that. (WC Exhibit 912) I love Snyder's response to the WC - he agreed he didn't have any legal right to refuse - he said that the office was closed on 10/31 - a Saturday - and added he didn't have a secretary to type up the renunciation! 3. In Snyder's original written 11/3/59 report on the Oswald visit - Snyder wrote that Oswald told him that "he had been forewarned" that Snyder would try to talk him out of renouncing his citizenship. I just pawed through Snyder's testimony on Oswald's warning to the WC - I don't see anything in Snyder's testimony about "somebody forewarning Oswald" - and none of those Warren Commission lawyers asked him any questions about it, either. They knew that Oswald's statement - true or not - was radioactive. It appears Snyder watered down his written statement down from "Oswald had been forewarned" to "Oswald was well aware" that Snyder might try to talk him out of it. Snyder then parsed the second phrase: "Either he said 'I am well aware' or 'I have been told exactly the thing that you will ask me, and I am not interested, so let's get down to business' - words to that effect." Everyone avoided Door #2. McVickar made a similar claim the day after the assassination that LHO was tutored by persons unknown - but Snyder's is more significant, because Snyder said it back in 1959, not in 1963. 4. I believe LHO was trained to indicate to Snyder that he was going to commit a "disloyal act" involving military information to the Soviets, but not of a highly classified nature - along the same lines as Robert Webster. Webster defected, but he did not give up any important secrets, and was able to come back home. From the beginning, LHO wanted to be able to come back home - and left the door open a crack. LHO told Snyder that he was going to tell the Soviets what he knew about aviation electronics. As a result of Oswald's actions, the US could obtain CI information literally from the questions that the Soviets were asking Oswald. CI information on the Soviet Union was the kind of thing that military intelligence could never get enough of - and ONI was the most likely agency to handle LHO in this setting. Webster was coaxed to defect by means of a honey trap - the Air Force dangled him in front of the Soviets because he was a plastics & fiberglass technician - he knew rocketry and Air Force technical intelligence wanted to know if the Soviets were ahead or behind of them. (For more, see State Secret, Chapter 1) It turned out the Sovs were a dozen years behind. Webster was no agent - he was manipulated into place - so was Oswald. Similarly, Oswald was an aviation electronics operator - he knew radar and a lot more. My current belief (still mulling all this over) is that ONI dangled Oswald in front of the Soviets because he knew electronics and might have U-2 information - which would entice the Soviets to question him. Like in the Webster case, the CI forces within ONI (and other agencies) would learn a lot by learning what the Soviets were interested in. Edward Freers at the State Dept. wrote an 11/2/59 memo about the 10/31/59 LHO visit that Snyder initialed (on front page) - Freers wrote that Oswald said he had "voluntarily stated to unnamed Soviet officials that as a Soviet citizen he would make known to them such information concerning the Marine Corps and his specialty as he possessed. He intimated that he might know something of special interest." Note that Freers did not quote Oswald as saying that he was going to provide classified information - such a statement could lock the door on him and prevent him from returning to the USA. Snyder's statement in 1963 echoed Freers in 1959 - as an electronics specialist, Oswald "intended (to) make all his specialized knowledge available to the Soviet government, in effect declaring intention to commit a disloyal act. I believe he did not claim to possess knowledge or information of highly classified nature." 5. Oswald walked a tightrope to threaten to renounce his US citizenship, and made sure that he went right up to the edge of losing his citizenship, but he didn't lose it like Robert Webster did. That took coaching. Webster got burned by his military handlers - so did Oswald. Snyder and the State Dept went to elaborate lengths not to accept Oswald's attempt to renounce his citizenship. On the other hand, the military went to extraordinary lengths to characterize his actions as a renunciation of his citizenship. The ensuing paper war scared everyone away from trying to understand this battle - to this day. Still looking it over, but I think this fight between the State Dept. and the military about whether Oswald should lose his citizenship may have been totally contrived. In the middle of that paper war - Hoover wrote a memo to the Office of Security of the State Department - the Office of Security is known as SY -saying he was concerned that an imposter was using Oswald's birth certificate. Only this week did I realize that the only agency copied on this critical memo was ONI. Not CIA - not FBI. Why is Hoover only communicating with ONI and the State Dept. spooks at SY about Oswald? Does Hoover know something about the Oswald operation that we don't? When ONI reported the defection of Oswald - the copy that hit the file has the predominant scrawl of "SY" - the State Dept. security office again. I always assumed that State Dept. was reacting to Oswald's defection - now, I think that ONI and SY - despite all the carping back and forth - were in harmony. They were in on it, together. When the smoke between the military and the State Dept. cleared, Oswald maintained his citizenship, and was not charged with a crime. But his discharge was downgraded by the military from an honorable discharge to an undesirable discharge. Oswald now had to lie on all of his employment forms to get a job, he couldn't get decent benefits - the government had its hooks in him. He was not a free agent - he was not a free man - he was a patsy, all right. He had trusted these people to have his back, and he got nothing out of it but a Soviet wife and a baby. He fought it up to the top ranks of the military - on July 1963 his petition to restore his honorable discharge was denied, by Sec. of Navy Fred Korth, a Texan attorney by trade. Korth had been the attorney for Lee's stepfather Edwin Ekdahl, who was the only father figure that Lee ever had. Lee was able to leave the orphanage and join Ekdahl and Marguerite, while his two brothers were now able to attend military school in Mississippi. Ekdahl had worked in research at Texas Electric and had done very well financially. It looks like Lee modeled himself after Ekdahl when he joined the Navy in 1956 and successfully completed electronics school in Jacksonville and Biloxi. Korth knew everything about the Oswald family. He represented Oswald's stepfather Ekdahl at jury trial - no attorney gets involved in a jury trial without knowing everything about the opponents and their family, particularly in a divorce trial. Korth and got positive findings against Marguerite from the jury. She was plunged into poverty again, from 1948 on. What Korth and the military did to Oswald in 1962-63 is not the way to award an agent. I believe they and their buddies kept Oswald under their thumb, forced by poverty to scrape from day to day for the next year after his return from the Soviet Union. By July, 1963, after serving as an asset in what looks to me like an ONI-State Dept (with some piggy-backing by the CIA) Oswald had got the xxxx end of the stick.

This is a response to John Butler's two questions - how did Oswald know how to go through Finland to obtain an instant visa into the Soviet Union? And why did Oswald take a freighter to Europe? The following passage from my book State Secret addresses both questions, and illustrates Webster's roles as an asset and a dangle. It also sheds light on why Oswald's activities should be examined in the context of Webster's defection. My next post will address Oswald's roles as an asset, a dangle, and a wannabe spy. From State Secret, Chapter 1: On September 4, Oswald filled out a passport application saying that he was leaving the US on 9/21/59 by boat. He would be gone for four months to attend school at the Albert Schweitzer College and elsewhere. He indicated that he would begin his tour in Cuba, travel through Europe all the way to Finland, and then cross into Russia. Actually, Oswald was not scheduled to attend Albert Schweitzer College until April 1960. Oswald's statement about Cuba, Finland and Russia was a red flag for the counterintelligence agents that routinely review passport applications. Right before Webster’s disappearance, he was told by the Soviets that they would accept him as a citizen if he would teach them how to make the Rand spray gun demonstrated at the American Exhibition. When he agreed to show them, the Soviets agreed to provide him with citizenship. One of Jim Angleton’s deputies testified that Webster was regarded as a loss because of Soviet interest in Webster's knowledge about the "specifications of a nozzle that prepared plastic in a particular fashion". During this summer, Webster had been enjoying the attentions of a Russian woman named Vera. Webster had been suffering with marital problems back in the United States. Jim Rand believed that the Soviets were using Vera to convince Webster to stay "in order to gain his knowledge of (the) plastics and synthetics industry". Webster knew a lot about the technology that the Soviets wanted for their military and space programs, in order to fabricate their missiles and engines. All signs are that the US wanted the inside baseball on the state of development of Soviet missiles and military hardware - Webster learned during his stay that "Soviet plastics technologies on a commercial and application basis are about ten years behind those of the US." This letter between two FBI counterintelligence chiefs is revealing: "Subject does not have access to any classified data, but the Rand Development Corporation has expressed interest in his welfare because of his peculiar knowledge of the plastics and fiberglass industry. The U.S. is ahead of the Russians in the plastic and fiberglass field, and, therefore, the Soviets would have a logical interest in the subject's remaining in the Soviet Union. We also know that the Soviets have requested information concerning fiberglass and plastics through our double agents." Webster’s “peculiar knowledge” was not going to make up a ten year disadvantage between the US and the USSR in this field. However, as we will see, Webster became an invaluable source to US intelligence on the state of Soviet technology in these fields. Webster disappeared after he got his 20 day travel visa While Webster negotiated with the Soviets, Lee Harvey Oswald received a dependency discharge based on his claim that he was going to take care of his mother, who was supposedly injured months earlier by a falling candy box, and arrived in Fort Worth on September 12, 1959. He would still have to put in some reserve duty before his discharge was final. After visiting his mother for three days, he abruptly left her and arrived in New Orleans by the 16th. Her story was that Lee was going to resume work at an import-export business. Right after Webster got a 20 day visa for travel around the USSR, he disappeared on the 10th with Vera instead of leaving the USSR on the 14th as planned. Air Force intelligence described his trip as a 20 day Intourist tour of Kiev, a tourism agency firmly in the hands of the KGB. During Webster’s disappearance, Oswald traveled from New Orleans to Europe by freighter On September 16th, rather than return to the world of import-export, Oswald used his knowledge of that world to chart an unusual course by taking a slow boat to Europe. Oswald obtained a ticket to go to Le Havre, France by freighter for the next day. Although he wrote that he intended to leave on the 21st, he actually left on the 17th. Oswald skipped his planned trip to Cuba. Was it because Webster had disappeared? For a man on a slow boat, Oswald was in some kind of hurry. No one can prove that Oswald was working as an intelligence agent, or if he was being manipulated in some way. However, the evidence indicates that it was one or the other. Oswald’s trip was not a coincidence. What we do know is that in the eyes of intelligence, it was far better for Oswald to take a slow boat then to fly by plane. Throughout the summer of 1959, CIA officer “William Costille” and KGB officer Gregory Golub – under their cover as embassy consuls – were going out to Helsinki nightclubs for a few drinks, some flirtation with their female companions, and testing each other and their dates as possible defection targets. They would muse about ways to make it easier for Americans to obtain an instant visa to cross the border and enter the Soviet Union.[ 3 ] It was too early for Oswald to enter the Soviet Union. Webster's whereabouts were unknown. Nor was it known whether Costille had been successful in lining up an instant visa for Americans. On September 30, just as his visa was about to expire, Webster wrote the American embassy and told them that he was staying in the USSR. On October 6, a diplomat at the American embassy sent a memo to the State Department, tipping them off that Webster was defecting. The memo included a handwritten memo sizing up Webster, possibly from a photograph, describing him as "hgt 10.5, light, looks 165". The State Department memo quickly reached the top echelon at the FBI. When Webster surfaced, Oswald jumped off the boat and got an instant visa to the USSR Oswald cut short his trip once Webster turned up. Oswald disembarked in France on October 8. Oswald did not stop by the Albert Schweitzer school. Oswald was now on the move. On October 8, a memo from the CIA’s Soviet Union division revealed that all components involved with the Webster affair were swearing up and down that he was not their agent. All signs are that Webster’s movements were being choreographed by Air Force intelligence, whether Webster knew it or not. By October 11, Rand flew to the USSR to visit Webster, who was in the hospital for reasons that are still unclear. Jim Rand could not get any information, and was so frustrated that he referred to the American consul Richard Snyder as a "jerk". Oswald sped to Helsinki and arrived during the weekend of October 10. Oswald stayed at the Klaus Korki and Torni hotels, places that the CIA referred to as the local “pink hotels” - apparently because socialist travelers were attracted to them. The impecunious Oswald lined up his stay through an expensive Intourist package, even though his passport application said that he would not be using any such service. The KGB was watching Oswald. Shortly before Oswald’s arrival, we see memos with the indicators REDCAP and sometimes including LCIMPROVE. REDCAP was used for monitoring the activities of Soviet officials and installations outside of the USSR, and also as a defector inducement program. David Murphy, chief of the USSR division, described REDCAP as a "defector inducement program" in his book Battleground Berlin. LCIMPROVE was used for counterintelligence operations directed at the USSR. A REDCAP memo recounts how CIA consul William Costille gave his counterpart Gregory Golub two tickets to see Leonard Bernstein in an upcoming concert.[ 4 ] This was in appreciation for Golub’s recent assurance in a REDCAP/LCIMPROVE memo that any American who came to Helsinki with their papers in order would be granted a visa “in a matter of minutes” by the Soviets.[ 5 ] When a couple of Americans sought instant visas on Costille’s advice, Golub called Costille and told him that “he would give them their visas as soon as they made advance Intourist reservations. When they did this, Golub immediately gave them the visas.” A few days later, Costille gave Golub the Bernstein tickets. Golub had lunch with Costille on the 13th to say thank you. Oswald applied for his visa on the 13th and received his visa in record time by the 14th, obtained in one day rather than the customary wait of a week or more in Helsinki. Helsinki was considered to be the quickest place in the world for a foreigner to receive a Soviet visa. He then boarded a train, arriving in Moscow on October 16.

I committed a typo above - on Oct 59 (not Oct 61) LHO applied for citizenship to the "Surprem Soviet (urgent)" (gotta love it!) "I do not have enough money to live here indefintly, or to return to any other country." Spelling aside, not exactly the way to convince the Supreme Soviet that you should win your case. It is a good way to make sure you lose your case. Wikipedia helped me with this one: "The Committee for State Security for the Council of Ministers" (aka the KGB) deems it inadvisable to grant Soviet citizenship to Lee Harvey Oswald." A 10/21/59 follow-up memo by another undefined body wrote to the Central Committee of the CPSU and agreed with the KGB's recommendation. However, at some undated point after 11/27/59 the documents indicate that the CPSU Central Committee leadership came to a decision based on a proposal by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the KGB that Oswald "be granted the right of temporary soujourn in the Soviet Union for one year, and that the question of his permanent residency and of his receiving Soviet citizenship be resolved upon the expiration of this period." The Central Committee also ordered that LHO was to be provided with employment as an electrician, an apartment, and that the Red Cross & Red Crescent provide him with 700 rubles/month and to allocate 5000 rubles to furnish his apartment. The pay, as I understand it, was a little higher than the workers' pay and equivalent to what managers were getting - a pretty sweet deal.

Steve - Where does Lee Harvey Oswald deny that he ever applied for Soviet citizenship? That seems like a big deal. I think most of us know that LHO filed a request for citizenship to the Supreme Soviet in Oct 61. Can anyone tell me if it was ever formally granted or denied? I don't think they ever ruled on it - Webster had his citizenship request to the Supreme Soviet granted within two months. Oswald's diary states that on 1/4/60 he was given an "identity document for stateless persons". He accepted this document, despite his disappointment that his citizenship request was not granted. According to the Soviet defector Yuri Nosenko - who didn't always tell the truth but may have here - a lower echelon within the Soviet leadership - the Presidium of the Supreme Council - simply issued a "residential permit" which allowed Oswald to stay for a specified period of time, which was later renewed. Webster got in thanks to the Air Force (particularly the Air Force Technical Intelligence, or ATIC) and the CIA working with his employer Henry Rand - see Gary Hill's new book The Other Oswald at p. 63 and elsewhere, he's got all the latest on it. My focus is more on how Webster's name was redacted from the Warren Commission documents in Part 2 of the Twelve Who Built the Oswald Legend - I believe that comparison of Webster and Oswald in 1963 would have led people to realize the role of military intelligence in manipulating LHO. P.S. (Steve, I think the reference to HLO in the Dec. 1961 document appears to be a typo - two other references in the translation refer to LHO. There are other HLO references that seem more significant, at least to me.) P.P.S. LHO always bragged throughout his life - all the way to Michael Paine - that he had never met a communist. Why brag about that? He makes this statement again in his letter to his brother Robert in Nov. 1959. That seems like a great way to blow one's cover.

The purpose of this thread is for an exploration between me and James Norwood on the role of Oswald in the USSR, with others welcome to join in - I'm addressing this note to Jim Hargrove - who I think deserves a lot of thanks for his hard work on the Harvey and Lee question for many years even though I am not convinced by the Harvey and Lee theory. My request is simple: Could you hyperlink a lot of the documents on your site? It would make it so much easier to analyze the points you are making and the arguments you are posing. Personally, when I go to your site, I am confused almost immediately because I can't see the primary source. I find myself rejecting the arguments immediately - if I can't see the primary source, I can't establish the context. What are you including - and what is being left out? It would be particularly useful in chronologies where "Lee" and "Harvey" are being contrasted - when I see the different addresses fly around, I really want to understand and analyze them for myself, but it's too laborious without being able to point and click. Please consider it. Thank you!

Let me address James' two questions: (1) What more information would you need as the threshold to be able to identify Oswald as an agent of the United States, as opposed to a "wannabe agent" or an aspiring James Bond? A lot more. As I said in my first post I think he was an asset and a dangle, but I see him as a "wannabe agent", not an agent. I think we agree on a lot about his role, and don't want to quibble about phrasing. As you pointed out - at the end of the day, he didn't have a lot of personal "agency". My point is that he wanted to have a lot of agency - and he tried to act on it. If you asked him in 1959, I think LHO would tell you that going to the USSR was basically his idea, just like he told Nelson Delgado he wanted to go to Cuba. He wanted adventure. He loved the attention. Even in 1963 - he at least claimed he wanted to go back - and Marina certainly did! But I think he was manipulated into going in 1959 - he was promised a little spending money, nice hotel rooms in Finland, asked to provide a little "help" while he was there - offer "classified info about the U-2 to the Soviets", that sort of thing. That could have got him arrested by either side - but he felt he had protection, and he did. In my mind, he's not an agent. He's a wannabe agent. He is not getting paid - he's getting favors. The CIA used him, yes - you can call him "a creature of the CIA", but I think that exaggerates him. I would say that because he was intelligent and self-schooled he thought he had more agency then he actually did - but I think he was easily manipulated into going to the USSR rather than to Cuba. As a wannabe spy, he was smart enough to hide his knowledge of Russian and felt that he was manipulating the Soviets to a much higher degree. On the other hand, as the months went on, I think he realized he was in over his head and by mid-1960 started looking for the door to get out. (2) Would you accept the term asset as an appropriate description of Oswald in the so-called defection of 1959? Yes, as I've said all along. I think it's a far better description of what he was doing and how he was manipulated. James, here is my question to you: In your opinion, how was Oswald being "coached" prior to his arrival to the USSR? Any other items besides your useful list below? • Oswald postured as a Slavophile who played Russian records, read Russian-language publications, and was known by the nickname Oswaldovitch to his fellow Marines in Santa Ana, California. This posturing established a motivation for the "defection"; Agreed - but I'm not convinced yet there was coaching here - there could have been.• Oswald's discharge from Marines was conducted under extremely suspicious circumstances in which he claimed hardship to support his mother after a candy bowl landed on her head; Agreed - I think this was manipulated by outside forces, not LHO - I don't think he set that up.• Oswald's phony application as a student to the non-existent Albert Schweitzer College in Switzerland was a carefully documented ruse; This one still puzzles me - I think this may have been a Plan B for him if he didn't manage to get into the USSR - he may have thought it was his idea, he needed some college - after reading Evica's book it looks like "more legend being created for LHO" to me, and that he was being manipulated.• Oswald's route to the Soviet Union taken through Finland miraculously allowed him to enter the country expediently with little bureaucratic hassle; I have written about this extensively, powerful evidence shows that the CIA opened the door for him with an instant visa, absolutely, and I don't think he knew anything other than "there is an easy way for you to get inside" - and that interrupted his trip to Europe and he made a beeline for the USSR.• Oswald's phony suicide attempt in a Moscow hotel was designed to influence the authorities' decision to allow him to remain in the Soviet Union; yes, it was - but he could have dreamed up this phony attempt himself, it was clearly phony, the wounds were superficial and we agree that the doctor could tell that he understood Russian.• Oswald's finances in 1959 consisted of military scrip, raising the question of how he could have funded this trip. His finances were always shaky - I agree he might have been given some money, but it wasn't much.The points raised above suggest a meticulously choreographed operation that was in the works for a considerable amount of time and that could only have been implemented by the facilitation of the national security network. So far, our disagreements are only around emphasis. I don't see this as meticulously choreographed - I think he was a wannabe spy and adventurer that got a little help along the way. He was motivated to learn Russian. If he was a low-level agent, my first pick for him remains ONI, although he clearly got some CIA help - that he may have never known came from CIA.

James, I would prefer to characterize our discussion here as an exploration of the evidence. I would like to learn something and I think I have information that I would like to share with you. I don't know how much we will persuade each other or any other readers, but persuasion is not my primary goal - exploration is. Anthony is not convinced that LHO spoke excellent Russian - I am until someone persuades me otherwise. You and I agree on Dennis Ofstein, who worked with LHO at JCS from 1962-1963 - we also agree on Rosaleen Quinn back in 1959, who believed LHO spoke Russian "well", given his lack of opportunities to speak conversational Russian. Can you let me know what evidence you are offering that a young boy named Oswald was coached for an operation into the Soviet Union in 1959? You brought up in your article the testimonies of Palmer McBride, Zack Stout, and Lt. Allison Folsom - who I would love to evaluate more thoroughly in discussion with you. Your article, however, does not address the central question of who coached Oswald in the period prior to Sept 1959. To recap, you offered four points for discussion: (a) the careful planning of the venture to the Soviet Union in 1959; can we focus on this aspect - I'm looking forward to it. If we can hold off on the full-blown Harvey & Lee discussion for a moment, that would be helpful. (b) Oswald's exceptional foreign language skills; we agree (c) the feigning of his ignorance of Russian in the Minsk years; we agree. Some of John Armstrong's best work - and your work on this subject is good too. and (d) the ease with which he returned to the United States in 1962; not sure how important this is? The evidence shows he was trying to leave the USSR for at least a year; his words indicate he wanted to leave once the U-2 went down in May 1960. Let me also address your position that an Oswald Project existed in the 1950s. That term could be a useful theoretical construct, but I'm not yet convinced such a project existed. My concern, again, is that the term "Oswald Project" that you are relying on was used originally by James Wilcott, based on what he learned on 11/22/63. To put forward an Oswald Project in the 50s, it needs a foundation set in the fifties. I have read two of your articles, and I know that part of your analysis is that two boys named Oswald were trained in the Dallas-Fort Worth area in the 50s. Before we focus on that evidence - which is fascinating and which will take awhile - what other evidence of Oswald "coaching" is out there for his pre-Soviet period? To the best of my knowledge, Wilcott's testimony remains uncorroborated, more than forty years after he presented it. His testimony was that he learned about it after the assassination - not before. I believe he first came forward with it in 1978. The HSCA sought out the people he cited by name, and they simply refused to back him up in any regard. That doesn't mean he was lying. As I've said before - as I understand it, Wilcott was a known CIA dissident within their ranks as early as 1963. Without more evidence, I can't be confident that Wilcott received anything but a line of disinformation. Truth is protected by a bodyguard of lies - that's my line of thinking about most of the evidence that circles Mr. Oswald. You have done the work and you turn to analysis - not argument - I think we are embarking on a fruitful discussion.

In response to James' questions - yes, we can begin with the period leading up to the defection and ending with LHO's return to the US in 1962. To your next question - I certainly agree that LHO was not a genuine Marxist wishing to defect from the United States. I think he was a liberal Marine who was loyal to the United States, and we agree that the legend was being developed long before he left the military. LHO told a number of people that he had never met a communist in his entire life. The loaded question for me is that whether there is enough evidence to conclude that when he left the US, his purpose was to act as a United States agent. I'm looking forward to our continued exchange, because there is not enough for me at this point. Yes, he was a young man, and easily manipulated. But by whom, and for what purpose? As I said above, I'm convinced he was used as a dangle, an asset, and a source of information. The focus for me is on the word "agent". I think that he may have been willing to accept a little "help" and to offer a little "help". That, in my mind, is not the same as acting as a government agent. If he was a full-blown agent, my inclination is that he was initially working on a low-level with ONI - based on what he seems to have been doing in Japan and elsewhere as an 18-19 year old Marine prior to his Soviet soujourn. I am moving towards the opinion that ONI or another agency assisted LHO in his journey to the USSR. If it was ONI, CIA had reasons to support this effort, just like they supported the Air Force in the Webster defection. (We now know more about Webster than we do about Oswald.) If it was CIA, the Agency certainly had an interest in using Oswald in trying to unearth the mole that blew the Popov operation, in piggy-backing on the Webster operation, in a U-2 dangle with the Soviets, and more. Both ONI and CIA may have used Oswald as some kind of agent, or it may have been another combination of forces. (I am convinced that the CIA used him once he was there for molehunt purposes.) I don't feel there is enough evidence to offer this as an opinion - not enough data points. I look forward to your response. It seems to me that there is some good evidence about Oswald's "pretense of Communism" and how he might have been "coached and directed" during that period of time prior to his USSR trip. It's more than the real or imagined importance of watching "I Led Three Lives". Evaluating that evidence is important. What evidence is trustworthy, and what is shaky?

I have started this thread with James Norwood, professor and author of the article Oswald's Proficiency in the Russian Language. We have agreed to have this discussion here, rather than at the thread discussing my series on The Twelve Who Built the Oswald Legend. It is an important discussion that needs its own focus. James believes that LHO's Russian proficiency and other evidence related to his time in the Soviet Union between 1959-62 - I took the liberty to extend the analysis to 1963 because that year also provides telling data. James writes: "...in analyzing the legend of Oswald, students of the JFK assassination will find it essential to understand why, when, and where Oswald learned Russian. "The topic of the legend opens a Pandora's Box of questions about the truth lying beneath the legend. It is not enough to merely assert that he was a "wannabe spy," given (a) the careful planning of the venture to the Soviet Union in 1959; (b) Oswald's exceptional foreign language skills; (c) the feigning of his ignorance of Russian in the Minsk years; and (d) the ease with which he returned to the United States in 1962. "At the close of my article, I conclude that, far from being a wannabe spy, Oswald was a bona fide 100% agent of the United States." I am really looking forward to this discussion, because my present position is different - but not necessarily contradictory - with James' position. I believe that it is proven that Oswald was a source of information to both Customs in New Orleans and the FBI in New Orleans and Dallas. Furthermore, the CIA (with FBI assistance) used his file for molehunts using "Lee Henry Oswald" and a variety of other marked cards, as well as a "dangle" in the hunt for Popov's mole - that, and other activity, certainly makes LHO a CIA "asset". Anybody who defected to the Soviet Union was a potential asset to the intelligence agencies - and maybe more. When he returned, he was far more valuable to them. I would like to go farther than my current analysis that LHO was a "wannabe spy", but for whom? And in what configuration? My consistent position is that even at this late date we don't have enough data points to prove even beyond a preponderance of the evidence - much less a reasonable doubt - that LHO was a CIA agent or informant. Let's drill down a bit deeper. Two big questions: Was LHO an agent or informant - more than a "source", or an "asset", or a "dangle" that could be used? If he was either agent or an informant, who hired him? Let me address these briefly, and then pass the baton to James and whoever else wants to weigh in. Why not start with the biggest rock in the pond - Oswald's defection to the USSR in 1959, and that the former chief of Soviet CI believed that LHO's defection was "witting"? SR/CI Pete Bagley was considered by many observers to be "the best counterintelligence analyst of the cold war era" (Newman, Countdown to Darkness, p. 30). In mid-1963, Bagley was recalled from Berne, Switzerland to Langley, where he was rapidly promoted to chief of his Soviet counterintelligence division (Tom Mangold, Cold Warrior, p. 170). In 2012, Bagley reviewed a series of documents shown to him by researcher Malcolm Blunt, and came to the conclusion that Oswald was a "witting defector" to the Soviet Union (Newman, p. 30). Malcolm believes Bagley saw "in that instant that this high school dropout...may indeed have been utilized." Bagley's statement is important - at one time, I considered Bagley to be a possible architect of the JFK assassination. I am pleased that I never put that in writing - it would be pretty painful to have to take it back - something all good researchers have to do from time to time, because mistakes inevitably creep in. I agree that Oswald knew that he had government support when defecting to the Soviet Union - but I'm not conceding that LHO was acting as an agent for an intelligence service. He may have been willing to accept a little "help" and to offer a little "help", without acting as an agent for the government. A couple weeks after his arrival in the Soviet Union, LHO presented consul & former CIA officer Richard Snyder with a handwritten "renunciation of citizenship" during the embassy's least-busy shift on Saturday morning - similar to what Bob Webster had done a couple Saturdays earlier - and Nick Petrulli a couple Saturdays before that. Snyder's colleague consul John McVickar testified that Oswald said he was a radar operator with the Marines and that he knew some "classified things" that he was going to give the Soviets. I am convinced that LHO did these things with the reasonable assumption that the Embassy was bugged and that the Soviets were listening. The above facts do not prove that Lee Oswald was a CIA agent. If he was operating as the witting agent of any intelligence organization, my best bet is that he may have been doing it with some assistance with the Office of Naval Intelligence. Although I am not yet convinced, ONI would be my first choice for any fake "military defector program" that included Oswald - Donald Moneir told the ARRB that he was aware of an operation known as Navy Code 30, a fake defector program run by ONI. Unfortunately, no one I know of has stepped forward with any further details of Navy Code 30 to buttress Moneir's account. Journalists demand double sources in most big stories. You want someone who can corroborate your witness. Saying that there "a good person" like James Wilcott who has offered important information about "the Oswald program" in Japan is important, but it is not enough. I am very critical about relying on photographs without the aid of expert witnesses - which is my biggest problem with seizing on the Defense Dept. ID of Oswald as evidence of an intelligence operation. To my eyes, that photo looks like a montage of two photos of Oswald, or maybe even two separate people. John Armstrong's book has tons of good research material and so does the Harvey & Lee website, but that's not the same as a definitive analysis. I have not yet seen a scientific analysis fo that photograph and whether it is a "double image" or not. It looks like tradecraft, but that's not proof. Just think about the many lines of disinformation that the JFK case has been plagued with for more than five decades. Much of this disinformation is spread by our adversaries. It is even worse when it is spread by our friends and allies. It is really important to base our most important analysis on solid sources that can be corroborated. Thinly sourced evidence simply has to go on another stack of items to be re-examined when more data points emerge - no matter how alluring it is. James Wilcott's testimony about "the Oswald program" - cited by Jim Hargrove as #1 in his list of twenty evidentiary arguments that Oswald was a CIA agent - is certainly an indicator that there was a lot of interest about Oswald within the CIA ranks in Japan on 11/22/63. My personal belief is that Wilcott was an admirable person and a truth teller, but he didn't have strong first-hand knowledge about the Oswald program. He was not in an Edward Snowden-type situation. As just one possibility, Wilcott may have been fed disinformation because Wilcott was an admitted dissident within the CIA ranks before he left the Agency. He also proffered his recollections fifteen years after the fact, without telling documentation or corroborating witnesses - the passage of time and combat with relentless adversaries can have an effect on the accuracy of our memories. However, even without reaching a final decision on Wilcott's evidence, there are a number of sources that indicate that LHO may have been involved in espionage in Japan, or was at least used as a dangle for attractive Japanese women. Marina talked about how Oswald would rhapsodize about pretty Japanese girls. George de Mohrenschildt testified that Marina told him that LHO had an affair during early 1963 with Yaeko Okui - a certified public accountant who moved in Dallas in the summer of 1959 (right before LHO's departure for the USSR) and moved back to Tokyo in 1964. The Okui story mirrors the Paines' move to the Dallas area in Sept. 1959 (the same week as LHO's return to Dallas for a three-day stay, followed by an abrupt departure for the USSR) - their subsequent separation in early 1963, which allowed Marina and her daughter to move in to the Paine home - and the Paines' temporary reconciliation in the days after 11/22/63. Most of us know that LHO's medical records show he caught "gonorrhea... in the line of duty - not due to own misconduct". What we don't know yet is the nature of Oswald's line of duty. For now, I believe that LHO was up to something in Japan - he may not have been a full-blown agent for ONI or anyone else. Similarly, I think he was up to something in the USSR, and his cover may have been as simple as his arrival to Moscow as a "tourist" - the phrase used for LHO in the State Dept list actually called List of American "Defectors". Those quotation marks offer a small - but telling - bit of evidence that the State Department believed these guys were fake defectors. The CIA's REDSKIN program routinely used tourists as a source of information, coupled with a little CIA guidance. Tradecraft requires CIA officers to lie when needed about who they are working for - if this was a REDSKIN op, LHO may have never known it. Similarly, the Domestic Contacts Division - known within the CIA as KUJUMP - sometimes provided money and resources to people like de Mohrenschildt, who wrote ten reports to the CIA in the late fifties under the aegis of what appears to be a 'guidance' protocol known as GUIDE-164. Once LHO got to the Soviet Union, he unveiled his handwritten renunciation - I'm sure he got guidance in creating that document and in building his legend at the American Embassy on Saturday - but, again, from whom? Webster - known in CIA documents as "Guide 223" - got his primary guidance from the Air Force, while the CIA officers (especially James Murphy, a long-time close associate of Angleton) clucked his tongue in alleged dismay. I am moving towards the opinion that ONI was assisting LHO in this journey - and CIA may have been assisting ONI in this effort just like CIA assisted the Air Force in the Webster defection - but the evidence is so thin that I am not yet willing to offer this opinion in an article - offering this opinion-in-progress is as far as I am willing to go right now. I don't feel there's enough evidence yet to say that LHO was some kind of ONI agent that was given a CIA assist - or that CIA ever used him as anything more than a dangle and as "an asset". Let's figure out which agency played the primary role in guiding Oswald to the Soviet Union. I have made it very clear that I do believe that the CIA used Oswald as a dangle in the Soviet Union - and he may not have known anything about the CIA's role. Oswald may have gone into the USSR as a headstrong young actor - with his own post-adolescent agenda - who had been successfully baited by ONI and CIA to be an enticing dangle. To add another level of complexity to Oswald's time in the USSR, consider this: If you study the IJDECANTER documents that were recently released by the Archives, it does appear that Oswald may have been enticed by the Soviets to be an agent for their side for a period of time. Or, maybe, these documents are disinformation. I am still not wholly convinced that the IJDECANTER documents are bona fide, but they are worth some deep study - and we need more of them, it's a pretty thin set we have here. On James Norwood's work on Oswald's proficiency in Russian and his time in the USSR, I want to spend more time studying his work before I offer a lot of opinions on what I believe is a well-written article. I keep thinking about the aunt of one of Oswald's fellow Marines - Rosaleen Quinn - who had taken a Berlitz course and sought out Oswald as someone to practice with during the summer of 1959. As James mentions in his article, she found "Oswald spoke Russian well for someone who had not attended a formal course in the language." Let me close with a passage from John Newman's Countdown to Darkness, pp. 2-3, where Newman offers some good, hard thinking on when Oswald may have been inspired to step up his game: "It is likely that Popov's April 1958 message to (CIA officer George) Kisevlater about the U-2 was what led to Angleton's search for a mole inside the CIA...the strategy for using Oswald as a lure in the Soviet Union while cutting (the Soviet Russia Division) out of the loop inside the CIA had to have been made long before Oswald asked for and received permission for a compassionate early discharge from the Marines. "It could have been made just before Oswald began teaching himself Russian. The four or five month interregnum between Popov's U-2 tipoff and Oswald's interest in learning Russian seems an appropriate amount of time to spot and assess the available candidates for a U-2 related dangle in the USSR."