Martha Moyer

DLDuke, please see Walker Letter writing Campaign thread for the answer. CRThis was probably a reference to Anna Hidell said in Col Jones testimony to be a typographical error in a DPD report in his talks with them concerning MI Hidell/Oswald file. Hello Greg I can see you are still handsome as ever:) Been snooping on this thread. Stovall (and Rose) Exhibit "C" (21 H 598-99) tells us many details of the arrest of Wes and the discovery of the Enfield and tne subsequent lie detector test. Forgive me for butting in - Martha

You might want to read Dale K. Myers "WITH MALICE" Lee Harvey Oswald and The Murder of Officer J. D. Tippit. It will probably answer many of your questions and undoubtedly leave you with more:) Seriously - well worth the read. Martha

Hi Hugo, There are many JFK researchers on EF here that can answer your question{s} and likely will do so. I am not a researcher and was wondering back then if Tippit was one of our JBS members.

Hi B I was being a little "tongue in cheek" with my comments. Sorry! You guys have come up with an amazing amount of info since I was last here. The documents,alone, are just great! Wonderful to see the dedication of the research community is still going strong. My best to you all

Hi all Have been reading this thread with a great deal of interest. Much time has been spent on describing the Oswald(s) physical features. I have been noticing the clothing described. Where do you suppose the different outfits he was seen in were kept? I attempted a very long "reply" post on my new laptop and, for whatever cause, it disappeared so I am back on my trusty old PC. So if an unfinished post shows up someplace - forgive me. The gist of that post described my searching through all the DPD files which described Lee's belongings taken from his rooming house and the Paine home. Unless Lee was into rummage sales as a sideline much of the described clothing was not in his possession. A few years back I spent several hours searching through reports for any smidgen of evidence suggesting the ownership of a rifle i.e. any type of cleaning supplies, a stray cartridge or two and came up empty. I then looked for the black outfit he wore in the backyard photos - nothing. Marina, in her testimony before the WC, describing when Lee supposedly went to target practice with his rifle: "He used to wrap it up in his overcoat, raincoat" and get on the bus to go to Love Field. No overcoat or raincoat in his possessions. From all accounts - we know Oswald was very frugal so I can't imagine him tossing away articles of clothing. Just a thought - Martha

Upon reflection, I do not consider the photo on the right to have been taken any sooner than the mid '70s. I base this on the cut of the suit, width of tie and size of knot, and on his hair style. Additionally, if one accepts Duran's description that "Oswald" was blond and short, one should also accept the clothing description. Mr Photo-On-The-Right may not be a fashion plate, but rarely do you see someone dressed in suit and tie being described as "inelegant". It may fit the description of the man on the left, who additionally, looks to me like the type who might just turn red when angry. Otherwise the possibility exists that both photos came from the '70s. If anyone is really interested in showing that this photo could have been taken on the date claimed by Azcue, I'd recommend showing it to an expert in the fashion industry and ask them to try and pinpoint, based on clothing and hairstyle, what era the photo was taken. There is something I am a little unclear about. Are the two photographs of the Oswald Mexico City Mystery man from Azcue's photo collection. It seems that has been implied, or stated but I wanted to know for clarity's sake. And if they are not that would seem to make it incumbent to obtain Azcue's photo's, as that would eliminate the possibility of them sitting in a vault at the National Archives till 2039 or whatever. There is one other point, however it is more of a curiosity; The descriptions of this Oswald, particularly the 'face gets red when angry," I am aware the cause of the anger was being informed of the length of time it would take to get a visa exceeded the amount of time the "pretend" Oswald, who apparently knew how long the real Oswald's visa was good for.......Remember the quote ..."unless I used my real name." When Albert Osborne/John Howard Bowen was asked to describe the person sitting next to him NO TITLE, SUBJECTS: SEE FBI 105-82555-1929 pg 3 Found in: FBI Oswald Mexico City File (105-3702) John Bowen trip from Nuevo Laredo to Mexico City Mexico September 26-27 1963 and sat next to a young man described as 29 years of age 5"8 150 pounds thin blond hair dark complexion who appeared to be Mexican RIF#: 124-10029-10337 (UNDATED) FBI#: 105-3702-314 http://www.maryferre....do?docId=61381 I have wondered where did this guy come from, and recalled the account of Sam Newman mentioning coming into the aptly named Newman Building and finding a man in there, who is an electrician, CD 87 page 836 see NEWMAN, SAM ----- Sources: CD 87 SS 517*, pp. 5-6 DTR-00381; HSCA Vol 10, pp. 123-128 Mary's Comments: Owned 544 Camp Street, New Orleans, LA. When shown photograph of LHO, he could not recall ever having seen him. He described a young white male, approximately 22-24, 5' 9-1/2", 185lbs, fair complexion, light brown or blond hair, who spoke with a Spanish accent, who was found unlocking the door to the offices previously occupied by the CRC about ten days to two weeks after CRC left the Newman Building. * CD 87 pages 516-19 are pretty much illegible...and the Mary Ferrell pages seem in error, the page is actually CD 87 page 836] account is also in Oswald and the CIA - Newman What is interesting is Sam Newman was also an electrician.......At any rate, I wonder if these two persons are the same, seemingly a member of the by then dissolved Cuban Revolutionary Council goes to Mexico City to implicate Oswald, there is a sense of logic to it, and the descriptions are not that different. When the Cuban Revolutionary Council fell behind in their rent they kept their set of keys, which is why the unidentified person with blond hair was there in the first place.....I have run across something very similar to this before, concerning a big Hispanic/Latin hanging around the Crescent City Garage/Adrian Alba's place when Oswald was not there, where there were copies of The American Rifleman laid out on the table, in a document I read in the Other Individual's section of the microfiche collection the passage states that "Oswald brought his collection of magazines there." Which leads me to believe it was probably Lawrence Howard, Jr., who facilitated setting up Oswald through Seaport Traders, using the wrong issue of the American Rifleman of course. See CD 75 page 264-66 At any rate I believe the person Sam Newman encountered after the CRC left should be kept in mind, as well as the remote possibility that Azcue's photographs could be obtained, if the ones on this thread are not "those photographs." They are definitely not Maurice Bishop, [joke] If there is any additional thoughts regarding electricians...See NEAL, SAM (IS IT "NEILL"?) Sources: HSCA Vol 9, pp. 595-596, 779, 781 Mary's Comments: Master electrician for NASA. With Robert Ray McKeown when "Oswald" visited McKeown. Sam Neal is a story in itself........ Another issue that I don't believe some researchers realize are the amount of Cuban Embassy personnel, who were actually working for the CIA. There is no indication Miguel Roa was ever turned AMMUG-1 was asked to make inquiries about him when Roa left the DGI in April '64, but I thought the physical description was noteworthy. AMMUG-1 DEBRIEFING REPORT #198: JOSE MIGUEL FERNANDEZ 'ROA (MIGUEL ROA)/ pg 1 Found in: HSCA Segregated CIA Collection (microfilm - reel 21: AMMUG) 1964 JOSE MIGUEL FERNANDEZ ROA 201-730852 The last time that Source saw Subject was in Mexico, D.F. in March of this year RIF#: 104-10239-10199 (09/16/65) CIA#: 80T01357A http://www.maryferre....do?docId=22080 excerpt from INFORMATION REPORT: MIGUEL ROA SUBJ: AMMUG 1 DISSEMS born about 1935, is 5 feet seven inches tall 1 illegible lbs. has bushy blond hair, white skin, a red face and a thin nose, pseudonym MARCOS-1 ROA is a friend of Manuel VEGA http://www.maryferre....do?docId=18589 Thanks Robert, BK

Upon reflection, I do not consider the photo on the right to have been taken any sooner than the mid '70s. I base this on the cut of the suit, width of tie and size of knot, and on his hair style. Additionally, if one accepts Duran's description that "Oswald" was blond and short, one should also accept the clothing description. Mr Photo-On-The-Right may not be a fashion plate, but rarely do you see someone dressed in suit and tie being described as "inelegant". It may fit the description of the man on the left, who additionally, looks to me like the type who might just turn red when angry. Otherwise the possibility exists that both photos came from the '70s. If anyone is really interested in showing that this photo could have been taken on the date claimed by Azcue, I'd recommend showing it to an expert in the fashion industry and ask them to try and pinpoint, based on clothing and hairstyle, what era the photo was taken. There is something I am a little unclear about. Are the two photographs of the Oswald Mexico City Mystery man from Azcue's photo collection. It seems that has been implied, or stated but I wanted to know for clarity's sake. And if they are not that would seem to make it incumbent to obtain Azcue's photo's, as that would eliminate the possibility of them sitting in a vault at the National Archives till 2039 or whatever. There is one other point, however it is more of a curiosity; The descriptions of this Oswald, particularly the 'face gets red when angry," I am aware the cause of the anger was being informed of the length of time it would take to get a visa exceeded the amount of time the "pretend" Oswald, who apparently knew how long the real Oswald's visa was good for.......Remember the quote ..."unless I used my real name." When Albert Osborne/John Howard Bowen was asked to describe the person sitting next to him NO TITLE, SUBJECTS: SEE FBI 105-82555-1929 pg 3 Found in: FBI Oswald Mexico City File (105-3702) John Bowen trip from Nuevo Laredo to Mexico City Mexico September 26-27 1963 and sat next to a young man described as 29 years of age 5"8 150 pounds thin blond hair dark complexion who appeared to be Mexican RIF#: 124-10029-10337 (UNDATED) FBI#: 105-3702-314 http://www.maryferre....do?docId=61381 I have wondered where did this guy come from, and recalled the account of Sam Newman mentioning coming into the aptly named Newman Building and finding a man in there, who is an electrician, CD 87 page 836 see NEWMAN, SAM ----- Sources: CD 87 SS 517*, pp. 5-6 DTR-00381; HSCA Vol 10, pp. 123-128 Mary's Comments: Owned 544 Camp Street, New Orleans, LA. When shown photograph of LHO, he could not recall ever having seen him. He described a young white male, approximately 22-24, 5' 9-1/2", 185lbs, fair complexion, light brown or blond hair, who spoke with a Spanish accent, who was found unlocking the door to the offices previously occupied by the CRC about ten days to two weeks after CRC left the Newman Building. * CD 87 pages 516-19 are pretty much illegible...and the Mary Ferrell pages seem in error, the page is actually CD 87 page 836] account is also in Oswald and the CIA - Newman What is interesting is Sam Newman was also an electrician.......At any rate, I wonder if these two persons are the same, seemingly a member of the by then dissolved Cuban Revolutionary Council goes to Mexico City to implicate Oswald, there is a sense of logic to it, and the descriptions are not that different. When the Cuban Revolutionary Council fell behind in their rent they kept their set of keys, which is why the unidentified person with blond hair was there in the first place.....I have run across something very similar to this before, concerning a big Hispanic/Latin hanging around the Crescent City Garage/Adrian Alba's place when Oswald was not there, where there were copies of The American Rifleman laid out on the table, in a document I read in the Other Individual's section of the microfiche collection the passage states that "Oswald brought his collection of magazines there." Which leads me to believe it was probably Lawrence Howard, Jr., who facilitated setting up Oswald through Seaport Traders, using the wrong issue of the American Rifleman of course. See CD 75 page 264-66 At any rate I believe the person Sam Newman encountered after the CRC left should be kept in mind, as well as the remote possibility that Azcue's photographs could be obtained, if the ones on this thread are not "those photographs." They are definitely not Maurice Bishop, [joke] If there is any additional thoughts regarding electricians...See NEAL, SAM (IS IT "NEILL"?) Sources: HSCA Vol 9, pp. 595-596, 779, 781 Mary's Comments: Master electrician for NASA. With Robert Ray McKeown when "Oswald" visited McKeown. Sam Neal is a story in itself........ Another issue that I don't believe some researchers realize are the amount of Cuban Embassy personnel, who were actually working for the CIA. There is no indication Miguel Roa was ever turned AMMUG-1 was asked to make inquiries about him when Roa left the DGI in April '64, but I thought the physical description was noteworthy. AMMUG-1 DEBRIEFING REPORT #198: JOSE MIGUEL FERNANDEZ 'ROA (MIGUEL ROA)/ pg 1 Found in: HSCA Segregated CIA Collection (microfilm - reel 21: AMMUG) 1964 JOSE MIGUEL FERNANDEZ ROA 201-730852 The last time that Source saw Subject was in Mexico, D.F. in March of this year RIF#: 104-10239-10199 (09/16/65) CIA#: 80T01357A http://www.maryferre....do?docId=22080 excerpt from INFORMATION REPORT: MIGUEL ROA SUBJ: AMMUG 1 DISSEMS born about 1935, is 5 feet seven inches tall 1 illegible lbs. has bushy blond hair, white skin, a red face and a thin nose, pseudonym MARCOS-1 ROA is a friend of Manuel VEGA http://www.maryferre....do?docId=18589 Thanks Robert, BK

Hmm -Mr. Lewis stated in the above article he observed Oswald "grab something wrapped in shipping paper from the garage" Was the garage door open? Were the windows in the garage large enough that Oswald's actions could be observed? Frankly I cannot recall the garage door having windows but would have to check it out. Now if he had said he observed Lee leave the house with something - well . . . . And while there is discussion as to what Lee was carrying that morning - please recall the weather. It was misting rain enough for Wes to turn on his windshield wipers. Would rain drops leave any marks on the wrapping paper? Under a lab light - would one be able to detect a difference? Just curious Martha

Hi Bernice Oswald/Hidell had ordered the rifle months prior to the Alba magazine "browsing" done by Oswald. What is interesting - seven magazines were removed from the Alba garage by FBI on November 23, 1963 and forwarded to FBI Laboratory. The Lab was requested to compare the portion of American Rifleman, June, 1963, page 59, where an order blank had been torn from the advertisement of Klein's. Following the examination, the FBI reported one latent fingerprint had been developed on page 37 - right thumb print of Lee Harvey Oswald. Nothing was mentioned about the torn-out portion which would have contained the order coupon. On November 23, DPD officrs: Rose, Moore, Stovall, and Adamcik, searched the Paine home. There were 47 personal photos found (including 2 photos of Lee holding the rifle, holding papers and wearing a sidearm). Also found in the search "Two magazine ads of "Klein's Sporting Goods" . . ." (CD7) Paul Hoch, noted researcher, discovered one of the ads found in the Paine garage matched exactly the torn out portion from the Alba garage magazine. He turned the information over to the Nat'l Archives. Why coupons without the advertisements? Was Lee's memory so good that he could recall the details of something he wanted to order later on? He could have obtained the same magazines at any library in Dallas. Early on I wrote an article on the 6.5 Italian Carbine. During the course of my researching testimonies, DPD statements, etc., I ran across Klein's vice-president William J. Waldman's WC testimony.(3 H 366-369) Mr. Waldman was never asked nor did he mention the word "36" for the rifle. He did talk briefly about how the Department Ordering Number was used by the company to identify month and magazine. He went on to identify the ordering coupon rec'd from Oswald/Hidell as Dept. 358, American Rifleman, Feb. 1963.(21 H 704) However, there is no picture of the ad in Waldman's exhibits. As a matter of fact there is no picture of this particular advertisement anywhere in the 26 volumes and certainly no mention of a 36" rifle. One will find a Klein advertisement in Postal Inspector Harry Holmes exhibits(22 H 174)advertising a 40" Italian rifle - wrong "dept number". (Researcher Gary Nivaggi prepared a soft bound book where he had compiled and photo-copied "every Klein's Sporting Goods ad" for 1958-1964.) The Holmes advertisement coupon was Dept. 486. And thanks to Gary - this was the November, 1963 issue of Field and Stream. Mr. Holmes verified this in his testimony when he told the WC that he had sent his secretary out on Saturday morning to check on outdoor magazines, thinking he might ".... locate this gun to identify it, and I did". (7 H 294) What I could not understand was why Holme's advertisement was exhibited and not the American Rifleman ad. This could have all been cleared up if Waldman had been asked about a "36" rifle being ordered. He maybe could have explained these were re-conditioned junk rifles and they could have been any length or any variety of excuses. He just was not asked! Surely the FBI would have seen the AR advertisement. The best Klein advertisement I found was the one in "First Day Evidence" - a book about former Dallas Police Crime Lab detective R. W. "Rusty" Livingston who made duplicates of the DPD evidence and squirreled them away for several years. One problem - while making a duplicate of full page advertisement found at the Paine home he failed to notice the name of the magazine at the bottom of the page "Guns and Ammo" Dept. 427. Somebody had circled at 40" Italian rifle AND a .38 Special Smith and Wesson Revolver. (and we know that came from Seaport Traders). I had the opportunity to ask FBI Special Agent Robert Gemberling about a 36" Italian rifle. He told me that I was mistaken. I didn't argue - no point, the man was quite adamant. Sloppy police investigation? cover-up? - who knows. If Lee had stood trial - I doubt very seriously if the rifle would have been introduced into evidence due to a break in the chain of evidence. Martha Martha; An excellent accounting of many of the problems associated with the purportedly "ordering" of the 40-inch Model 91/38 Short Rifle which was utilized in the assassination. When dealing with "Alba", please take the following into consideration: 1. LHO was, (quite obviously by design) intentionally leaving many false trails throughout the "forest". As I have indicated elswhere, a squirrel in the forest NEVER goes directly to the tree in which he has a nest, as it would lead a predator directly to his/its home. The squirrell will run through the forest jumping onto trees, running around to the opposite side, and then jumping off, only to leave a "false trail". He will do this many times prior to actually climbing a tree which has access to the tree in which his nest is constructed. And, only the best of squirrel dogs can wade through the "false trails" left throughout the forest and find the last tree which the squirrel actually climbed. The "actions" of LHO can be best understood when one applies the "false trail" game which he was playing. 2. Adrian Alba was a member of the "MINUTEMEN", and was also apparantly involved in their training and arming them. By his association to Alba, LHO left an excellent false trail which has caused many to become lost. This is to include his "intentionally" hanging out/association at the garage; intentionally attracting the attention of FBI agents who parked cars at the garage; intentionally getting Alba to assist him in construction of the leather sling/strap which was on the recovered Carcano rifle; intentionally engaging Alba in conversations relative to rifle capabilities; intentionally attempting to purchase/acquire one of Alba's weapons; and of course removal of the Klein's Sporting Goods Ad's from Alba's stock of magazines. Which, in itself was an undoubtedly absolute "Direct Ploy" which would ultimately send the FBI right back to Alba and his magazines. So, in order to understand much of LHO and his motives, one must understand exactly how and why he went to the efforts which he did in order to send the squirrel dogs (FBI) chasing up the wrong tree. Tom P.S. Only those few who have actually attempted to "unravel" the information relative to the 36-inch/40-inch discrepancy are likely to grasp all of your post.

Hi Bernice Oswald/Hidell had ordered the rifle months prior to the Alba magazine "browsing" done by Oswald. What is interesting - seven magazines were removed from the Alba garage by FBI on November 23, 1963 and forwarded to FBI Laboratory. The Lab was requested to compare the portion of American Rifleman, June, 1963, page 59, where an order blank had been torn from the advertisement of Klein's. Following the examination, the FBI reported one latent fingerprint had been developed on page 37 - right thumb print of Lee Harvey Oswald. Nothing was mentioned about the torn-out portion which would have contained the order coupon. On November 23, DPD officrs: Rose, Moore, Stovall, and Adamcik, searched the Paine home. There were 47 personal photos found (including 2 photos of Lee holding the rifle, holding papers and wearing a sidearm). Also found in the search "Two magazine ads of "Klein's Sporting Goods" . . ." (CD7) Paul Hoch, noted researcher, discovered one of the ads found in the Paine garage matched exactly the torn out portion from the Alba garage magazine. He turned the information over to the Nat'l Archives. Why coupons without the advertisements? Was Lee's memory so good that he could recall the details of something he wanted to order later on? He could have obtained the same magazines at any library in Dallas. Early on I wrote an article on the 6.5 Italian Carbine. During the course of my researching testimonies, DPD statements, etc., I ran across Klein's vice-president William J. Waldman's WC testimony.(3 H 366-369) Mr. Waldman was never asked nor did he mention the word "36" for the rifle. He did talk briefly about how the Department Ordering Number was used by the company to identify month and magazine. He went on to identify the ordering coupon rec'd from Oswald/Hidell as Dept. 358, American Rifleman, Feb. 1963.(21 H 704) However, there is no picture of the ad in Waldman's exhibits. As a matter of fact there is no picture of this particular advertisement anywhere in the 26 volumes and certainly no mention of a 36" rifle. One will find a Klein advertisement in Postal Inspector Harry Holmes exhibits(22 H 174)advertising a 40" Italian rifle - wrong "dept number". (Researcher Gary Nivaggi prepared a soft bound book where he had compiled and photo-copied "every Klein's Sporting Goods ad" for 1958-1964.) The Holmes advertisement coupon was Dept. 486. And thanks to Gary - this was the November, 1963 issue of Field and Stream. Mr. Holmes verified this in his testimony when he told the WC that he had sent his secretary out on Saturday morning to check on outdoor magazines, thinking he might ".... locate this gun to identify it, and I did". (7 H 294) What I could not understand was why Holme's advertisement was exhibited and not the American Rifleman ad. This could have all been cleared up if Waldman had been asked about a "36" rifle being ordered. He maybe could have explained these were re-conditioned junk rifles and they could have been any length or any variety of excuses. He just was not asked! Surely the FBI would have seen the AR advertisement. The best Klein advertisement I found was the one in "First Day Evidence" - a book about former Dallas Police Crime Lab detective R. W. "Rusty" Livingston who made duplicates of the DPD evidence and squirreled them away for several years. One problem - while making a duplicate of full page advertisement found at the Paine home he failed to notice the name of the magazine at the bottom of the page "Guns and Ammo" Dept. 427. Somebody had circled at 40" Italian rifle AND a .38 Special Smith and Wesson Revolver. (and we know that came from Seaport Traders). I had the opportunity to ask FBI Special Agent Robert Gemberling about a 36" Italian rifle. He told me that I was mistaken. I didn't argue - no point, the man was quite adamant. Sloppy police investigation? cover-up? - who knows. If Lee had stood trial - I doubt very seriously if the rifle would have been introduced into evidence due to a break in the chain of evidence. Martha

Tony, How could Fritz have aided Alyea within a minute of the casings being found, when he was not even on the 6th floor when they were found? This is only one of many questions. There are some serious accuracy issues with the article, if you wish I will address them. Mike Mike Statement of Detective B.L. Senkel (CE 2003 page 324): "Weatheford and I entered the building and proceeded to check building from ground floor up. I got to the sixth floor about 1:10pm. The empty hulls were found at window about 1:15pm. Capt. Fritz, Dets. Sims and Boyd were present at this time." Lee Mooney specifically said he found the casing, looked out the window and saw Fritz and Decker on the ground. He repeated same to me in a phone interview 2 years ago. Also of note is that Mooney says the pictures of the casings are exactly as he found them. Correct, Mike. Mooney makes it quite clear he was alone when he found the shells. Next upon the scene was Gerald Hill. Mr. BELIN. When you got off the passenger elevator, what did you do? Mr. HILL. We asked them where the stairway was to the top floor, and if this was on the fifth, we walked through---there is a little office section near the elevator. We walked over past it and through a large room to the stairway, and then went all the way as high as the stairway would take us, which would have been on seven. In the middle of the floor on the seventh floor there was a ladder leading up into an area they called the penthouse, which was used mainly for storage. Westphal went up this ladder, I know, and the uniformed officer went up it. The rest of us were checking around the boxes and books. So on file we verified that there was not anyone on the seventh floor, and we didn't find any indication that the shots had been fired from there. Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Mr. HILL. Left the uniformed officer there, and these two deputies and I went down to sixth. I started to the right side of the building. Mr. BELIN. When you say the right side, you mean---- Mr. HILL. Well, it would have been the west side. Mr. BELIN. All right, they moved over to the east side? Mr. HILL. We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, "Here it is," or words to that effect. I moved over and found they had found an area where the boxes had been stacked in sort of a triangle shape with three sides over near the window. Two small boxes with Roller books on the side of the carton were stacked near the east side of the window. Mr. BELIN. Let's talk about which window now, sir. First of all, what side of the building? Was it on the north, east, south, or west? Mr. HILL. It would have been on the south side near the east wall. It would have been the window on the southeast corner of the building facing south. Mr. BELIN. Would it have been the first window next to the east wall or the second window, or what, if you remember? Mr. HILL. As near as I can remember, it was the first window next to the east wall, but here again it is--I stayed up there such a short time that--yes, that is the one I am going to have to say it was, because as near as I can remember, that is the one it was. Mr. BELIN. What did you see over there? Mr. HILL. There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a three-sided shield. That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them. On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for concealment. there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack. I wouldn't know what the sizes were. It was a sack, I would say extended, it would probably be 12 inches high, 10 inches long, and about 4 inches thick. Then, on the floor near the baseboard or against the baseboard of the south wall of the building, in front of the second window, in front of the, well, we would have to say second window from the east corner, were three spent shells. Hi A little further on in Hill's testimony he relates how he yelled out of the window to get the crime lab - "I asked the deputies again to guard the scene and I would go down and make sure that the crime lab was en route." Hill goes on to tell about meeting Fritz coming up on the elevator "I told him what we had found . . . and told him also that I was going to make sure the crime lab was en route." 7 H 46-47. If this statement is correct - then Fritz was at the SN prior to Day and Studebaker. In Mooney's statement he had this to say: "MR. BALL: They were the empty shells? MR. MOONEY: Yes, sir. MR. BALL: They were turned over to Captain Fritz? MR. MOONEY: Yes, sir; he was the first officer that picked them up, as far as I know, because I stood there and watched him go over and pick them up and look at them. 3 H 286. Alyea told me he had followed some of the deputies up to 7th floor. Mooney, in his testimony had this to say: "At that time, some news reporter, or press, I don't know who he was -- he was coming up with a camera." Mooney "And then I says I am going back down on six." 3 H 284 WFFA Cameraman Alyea, Kent Biffle - Dallas Morning News Reporter, and Pierce Allman WFAA radio reporter, are the only newsmen that were in TSBD when it was sealed. (POTP, 521. Alyea told me he asked Fritz if he could photograph the SN. Fritz said no. But when Fritz squeezed in he held the hulls over the top of the boxes so Alyea could film them. Alyea was throwing his reels down to a courier to take over to WFAA. (Tom said when he finally got back - he walked into a room and the floor was filled with little ribbons of film (he had 500 feet of film with him at TSBD) and they were gathering it up into a big barrel-like carton - they had picked out what they wanted to get on the air and trashed the rest.) According to Fritz's affidavit 6/8/64: "Three spent rifle hulls were found under the window in the southeast corner of the 6th floor of the Texas School book Depository Building . . . .When the officers called me to this window, I asked them not to move the shells nor touch them until Lt. Day of the Dallas Police Department could make pictures of the hulls." 7 H 401-402. Martha Moyer

Hey Duke - don't want to steal your thunder - but just happened to have info at hand: 1-2:00 AM OLSEN, HARRY: Had "two to three" hour conversation with Ruby, Kathy Kay and "Johnny Simpson, garage atttendant at Simon's Parking Lot on corner of Jackson and Field. Conversation ended about 2 or 3 AM (14 H 632-32, dtd 8/6/64) In interview of 12/16 Olsen staated they only talked to Jack for about 10 minutes at around 1:30 AM (25 H 279) 1:00 AM - COLEMAN, Kathy Kay: She and Harry had been to Sip and Nip on Commerce for a drink. When it closed at 12 midnight - she and Harry went to talk to their "friend" Johnny at Simon's Parking Lot. Jack drove by at about 1 AM - they honked and Ruby stopped. Conversation lasted about an hour. Harry and Kay back home about 3:00 AM (14 H 646-7) 1:00 AM - SIMPSON, John J. "Johnny": Olsen came to pick up his car about 1:00 AM. Coleman yelled at Ruby as he was walking down street and Ruby came over and talked to Kay and Harry for about an hour or so. Simpson stated he was not involved in any conversation and was not a close friend of Olsen or Coleman. (25 H 521) 1:15 AM - KNIGHT, RUSS, disc jockey at KLIF saw Ruby at police station. Arranged interview with Henry wade Ruby wanted Knight to ask Wade if LHO was insance (15 H 485-87) 2:00 AM - RUBY: . . left KLIF to drive to Times Herald Building. On the way stopped and talked to "Harry Carlson" a Dallas Police officer and the young lady he was with with called Kathy Kay (who worked at Carousel) . Ruby said he never mentioned this before because officer had marital problems and it was a secret that he went with Kathy Kay. Ruby said he didn't want the office to get into trouble. (5 H 191) NOTE: Olsen and wife divorced in October '63 (14 H 627) Ruby's statement about Harry and Kathy Kay was made after Jack''s trial. One interesting bit of minutia: Tippit's last call in was from corner of 8th and Lancaster. You can stand on that corner - and even an old as dirt lady such as myself - can throw a rock and hit Kathy Kay's apartment. Duke - I believe you are very knowledgeable in this area. I have some information that may or may not be worthwhile. If you are interested - get in touch. Martha

None of the characters involved in getting Melvin Belli (Mike Shore (PR for Sinatra's Reprise Records), Billy Woodfield, photographer/writer (a close associate of Lawrence Schiller), or Melvin himself, on board told the same story - including Earl Ruby. (Citations for all statements and testimonies) An interesting little bit of minutia - when DPD Patrick Dean was having his run-in with WC counsel Burt Griffin - he declared that he would call in his attorney "Melvin Belli". Another association - mobster Mickey Cohen was "engaged" to famous stripper "Candy Barr" when she was taken down in Dallas on a (according to Mary Ferrell) trumped up drug charge. Cohen, a personal friend of Belli's, asked Melvin to work on appeals to have the case thrown out. (didn't work) . also represented Candy. It was common knowledge that Jack was friends with Barr. Jack's phone records indicated calls to the now paroled Candy prior to November 22nd. So Belli and associates were at least on nodding terms with Ruby. However, reading testimony, one would believe that Belli was an unknown until he came into the case. Look at other connections with the mob: Cabana was owned on paper by Doris Day and her husband Marty Melcher. But it was Jay Sarno, backed by Teamster Union Jimmy Hoffa and Dorfman who footed the costs for the Hotel. No wonder the likes of Jim Braden, Jack Ruby, among others, partook of the delights of the, then, very fancy hotel in Dallas. Joe Campisi, known lieutenant of Carlos Marcello, was Ruby's first visitor following the slaying of Oswald. Lewis McWillie who, according to Jack, was a very close friend - was a lieutenant of Trafficante. Worked as a pit boss in Havana and later in the same capacity at Lake Tahoe holdings of Frank Sinatra - Cal-Neva Lodge. So-called telephone unidentified caller from "Desert Inn" (owned by Mo Dalitz and associate, Meyer Lansky) to a Belli associate in San Francisco following the shooting of Oswald: The caller, when informed that Belli was in southern California defending a murder case, told the associate a $25,000 retainer fee was being sent and that Belli was to get the Ruby case. One source - Bill Turner; second source is a personal friend who was then a young lawyer at Belli's SF office. Background search revealed Dalitz bought Desert Inn with Teamster funds courtesy of Hoffa and associates. And on and on and on - IMO - the barn door had been left open far too long when Blakey and crew with HSCA came along. Mob tracks all over the place in '63.

Lawrence Schiller and Billy Woodfield (the latter -Jack's biographer, of sorts) were "Two free lance photographers . . . " spent time shooting stills of Marilyn Monroe in her last unfinished film "Something's Got to Give". Schiller was also one of the few last people to see Marilyn alive On Saturday, August 4 (1962) when, at around 10 AM he arrived at her home saying he had come to discuss a magazine feature exploiting the pictures taken on the set of "Something's Got to Give". MARILYN MONROE, The Biography. Donald Spoto, 1993. pp 354 524, 566. Somewhere (I hate to be vague - but I cannot locate where I found this information but maybe it is known or has been posted here at one time or another) I read where it was Schiller who accompanied Earl Ruby when a tape recorder was secreted into Jack's room at the hospital and he made a final statement accepting all blame for the shooting of Oswald. Martha

BS, MAE, (American History and research -plus additional degree in counseling. (Ball State University) Retired educator. Worked locally in "JFK For President Campaign" 1960. I had followed the family prior to Jack's nomination - my interest began around 1953. (My husband and I share almost the same wedding date - we at least got the month right) I have had some articles published in Lancer and Dr. Rose's Fourth Decade. I have a timeline mss on Jack Ruby in the Sixth Floor Archives and, I think, the Dallas Public Library (at least that is what I have been told)