Richard Hocking

Do you have proof, Duncan?

Hi Bill. Very interesting analysis. Is there somewhere I can view the documentation (heights, distances, ect.) for this?

SSA Landis Statement of November 22, 1963: "... At this moment I heard what sounded like the report of a high-powered rifle from behind me, over my right shoulder. When I heard the sound there was no question in my mind what it was. My first glance was at the President, as I was practically looking in his direction anyway. I saw him moving in a manner which I thought was to look in the direction of the sound. I did not realize that President Kennedy had been shot at this point.I immediately returned my gaze, over my right shoulder, toward the modernistic building I had observed before. With a quick glance I saw nothing and immediately started scanning the crowd at the intersection from my right to my left. I observed nothing unusual and began to think that the sound had been that of a fire cracker but I hadn't seen any smoke. In fact, I recall Special Agent Jack Ready saying, "What was it? A Fire Cracker?" I remarked, "I don't know; I don't see any smoke." So far the lapsed period of time could not have been over two or three seconds. All during this time I continued to scan the crowd, returning my gaze towards the President's car. It must have been another second or two before the next shot was fired because, as I recall having seen nothing out of the ordinary, I then thought that maybe one of the cars in the motorcade had had a blowout that had echoed off the buildings. I looked at the right front tire of the President's car and saw it was all right. I then glanced to see the right rear tire, but could not because the Follow-up car was too close. I also thought of trying to run and jump on the President's car but did not think I could make it because of the speed at which we were traveling. I decided I had better stay where I was so that I would at least be near the First Lady, to whom I am assigned. I think that it was at this point that I thought, "Faster, Faster, Faster," thinking that we could not get out of the area soon enough. However, I don't have any idea as to how fast we were then moving. I had drawn my gun, but I am not sure exactly when I did this. I did leave my suit coat unbuttoned all during the motorcade movement, thinking at the time that I could get to my gun faster this way, if I had to. I glanced towards the President and he still appeared to be fairly upright in his seat, leaning slightly toward Mrs. Kennedy with his head tilted slightly back. I think Mrs. Kennedy had her right arm around the President's shoulders at this time. I also remember Special Agent Clinton Hill attempting to climb onto the back of the President's car. It was at this moment that I heard a second report and it appeared that the President's head split open with a muffled exploding sound. I can best describe the sound as I heard it, as the sound you would get by shooting a high powered bullet into a five gallon can of water or shooting into a melon. I saw pieces of flesh and blood flying through the air and the President slumped out of sight towards Mrs. Kennedy. The time lapse between the first and second report must have been about four or five seconds. My immediate thought was that the President could not possibly be alive after being hit like he was. I still was not certain from which direction the second shot came, but my reaction at this time was that the shot came from somewhere towards the front, right-hand side of the road. I did not notice anyone on the overpass, and I scanned the area to the right of and below the overpass where the terrain sloped towards the road on which we were traveling. The only person I recall seeing clearly was a Negro male in light green slacks and a beige colored shirt running from my left to right, up the slope, across a grassy section, along a sidewalk, towards some steps and what appeared to be a low stone wall. He was bent over while running and I started to point towards him, but I didn't notice anything in his hands and by this time we were going under the overpass at a very high rate of speed. I was looking back and saw a motorcycle policeman stopping along the curb approximately adjacent to where I saw the Negro running. ..." /s/ Paul E. Landis, Jr. Special Agent U.S. Secret Service Seems clear from this statement that Landis is referring to the Grassy Knoll on the Right (North) side of Elm Street. Landis thought the first shot came from the right rear and the second shot from the north Grassy knoll area, so it would make sense for him to be looking where the sounds of gunfire originated.

Appears a few of these most everyone liked. The Twilight Zone (first two seasons were the best) Alfred Hitchcock Presents The Outer Limits Rawhide Gunsmoke Star Trek Get Smart (Agent 99) Wild Wild West (James West was good. Artemis was even more entertaining). Have Gun Will Travel (Philosopher gunslinger) Dick Van Dyke (all around funny cast) Alcoa Presents One Step Beyond (tales of the supernatural)

Rest up and get well soon Jack Looking forward to having you back on the Ed Forum

Good stuff, Jack!

Richard, McMahon himself being the only source for this? McMahon said he was never left alone with the film. So there was at least one other person present, possibly more. He said it was delivered to him by "Bill Smith" of the "Secret Service". McMahon gave his interview to Doug Horne and Jeremy Gunn. I am unaware of any other witness present to come forward to verify McMahon's story, so you have to make a judgement based on his qualifications and credibility. At the very least, McMahon should be included in any discussion of another film or possible alteration to the Zapruder film.

On the evening of November 22, 1963, an amateur 8 mm film of the assassination was delivered to the National Photographic Interpretation Center (NPIC) in Washington. Expert CIA photoanalyst, Homer McMahon viewed the film at least 10 times, concluding that there had been 6-8 bullet impacts on JFK and Connally and that the shots were fired from 3 different directions. These observations are supportive of McMahon having seen a film that was different from the current Zapruder film.

True, LBJ and the FBI tried to dupe and manipulate Earl Warren. But It must also be remembered that Warren witnessed enough witness testimony during the hearings that serious questions should have formed in his mind regarding the foregone Conclusion that Lone Nut Oswald did it all by himself, or alternately that Cuba/Castro was involved in the assassination. In addition to the information furnished by Tom Scully (posted above this post), I would include a couple other incidents that are very revealing concering Warren's performance on the commission: 1. While interviewing Jack Ruby, Ruby says he cannot talk in Dallas and offers to tell Warren the whole story if Warren will extradite him and take him to Washington. The last known primary player, still alive, offers to spill his guts and tell the whole story if Warren will move him to a safe location. Amazingly, Warren turns down the request. 2. HSCA Special Investigator Gaeton Fonzi offers another revealing incident: "... There is a brief glimpse, an illustration of the level at which that deceit was carried out, in an incident that occurred during the Warren Commission's investigation. Commission chairman Earl Warren himself, with then Representative Gerald Ford at his side, was interviewing a barman, Curtis LaVerne Crafard. Crafard had worked at Jack Ruby's Carousel Club before he was seized by FBI men as he was hightailing it out of town the day after the assassination, having told someone, "They are not going to pin this on me!"In the interview, Warren asks Craford what he did before he was a bartender. "I was a Master sniper in the Marine Corps," Craford answered.* The next question that Warren immediately asked was: "What kind of entertainment did they have at the club?" Fonzi Quote at jfklancer

Michael, I appreciate your effort to place my quote in original context. In the interest of removing distractions and keeping this thread on theme, I have edited the relevant section of my original post. It now reads: " Dan Rather saw the Zapruder film within two days of the assassination and reported that " ,,, the Presidents head went forward with considerable violence...". Although JFK's head does move forward a couple inches between Z 312 and 313, there is no way to reconcile Rather's observation with the current Zapruder film which shows the dominant visible motion of JFK being knocked back and to his left." In the same report on his observations of the film he saw the day after the assassination, Dan Rather also stated the film showed the Presidential Limo turning from Houston onto Elm Street. This does not appear on the extant Zapruder film. These anomalies are strong indications that Rather saw either a different film or an un-edited version of the current film.

Richard posted that the head did not move forward. I posted that the head did move forward with an image showing the forward movement. The forward movement, however small, is accepted now and it has been for many years by everyone who isn't a little bit Cuckoo. Whatever speed Rather viewed the film, he got it correct. That's a FACT!!! What I wrote above is confirmed by your latest post. You misrepresent what Richard said and you misrepresent your response. I could go back and fetch the quotes, but it's not worth it with you. You can post about facts all you want and put the word in caps, but until you stick with what was actually said, your insistence on what constitutes a fact is irrelevant and useless to the referenced discussion. Thank you for the clarification, Michael. I have never told anyone that JFK's head did not move forward. Anyone who has done still frame analysis of the Zapruder film knows there is forward movement of JFK's head between z312 and 313. To get back on track with the theme of this thread, I added three names of individuals to Jack's list, who made statements that indicate there was (or still may be) a different film that showed actions or details that are not present in the current Zapruder film.

From Pictures Of The Pain by Richard Trask, page 90: The real controversy over Rather's description, however, was his mentioning that upon receiving the final shot, President Kennedy's head moved violently forward. Rather wrote of his description, "....I did it as well and as honestly as I could under the conditions," but he did blow a piece of the description. To the eye, the head moved decisively and forcefully backward. His misstatement would follow him when later researchers found this movement to be consistent with what they thought to be a front. and not back, gunshot entry. Trask calls it a misstatement. Duncan claims Rather got it right. Most people would go with Trask and view Duncan's statement as nonsense. Agree Michael. When viewed at normal speed, the forward motion is nearly imperceptible to most people.

Nonsense, Dan Rather got it right. Regarding the 3 frame snippet posted by Duncan: the heads of Greer, Kellerman, Conally, Nellie and JFK all move forward towards the front of the limo a couple inches. All about the same distance as JFK's head. Should we surmise that all of their heads are "moving forward with considerable violence"? Since none of the other occupants was hit in the head with a bullet, we are forced to consider other possible causes for the sudden movement of everyones heads: Braking of the Limo; removed frames or alteration of the film ... Either of these could explain what we see. BTW, In my earlier post, I left out another quote by Rather in his report on what he saw in the film: "... the film shows President Kennedy's open black limousine making a left turn off of Houston Street onto Elm Street... " Obviously, Rather was not describing the current version of the Zapruder film.

In addition to the individuals listed above, there are a few others whose testimony indicates there was a different or "other" film of the assassination. Dan Rather saw the Zapruder film within two days of the assassination and reported that " ,,, the Presidents head went forward with considerable violence...". Although JFK's head does move forward a couple inches between Z 312 and 313, there is no way to reconcile Rather's observation with the current Zapruder film which shows the dominant visible motion of JFK being knocked back and to his left. " Former FBI official and J. Edgar Hoover aide Cartha DeLoach recently provided further evidence of alteration in the Zapruder film (albeit unintentionally and unknowingly, I'm sure). DeLoach recalls in his book HOOVER'S FBI that he watched the Zapruder film at FBI HQ the day after the shooting and that he saw Kennedy "PITCHING SUDDENLY FORWARD" in the film. No such motion, of course, is seen in the current film." Link from a post in another thread by Bernice Moore Abraham Zapruder gave an interview soon after the assassination in which he stated that he started filming as the Limo was turning onto Elm Street. The current film does not include the Limo turning. * Edited for clarity, April 28, 2011. The edit is to make clear I am aware JFK's head does move forward roughly 2 inches between z312 and z313 on the extant Zapruder film.

Excellent pickup Greg. Had not noticed that before. Another point of corroboration for Craig's observation on Elm Street.

Fair enough. My own take on Reagan is similar. To understand the effect of Reagan on the national psyche, you have to place him in the context of those times. Look at the four men who preceded him: The catastrophic presidencies of LBJ and Nixon (JFK Assassination, VietNam, Watergate); The buffoonery of the Ford Administration; the economic debacle of the Carter administration. America was ready for a change. Especially after the assassination attempt, Reagan was largely a figurehead, a popular man that was used in the machinations of transparent players higher up the food chain.

I tried. I'm using Google Chrome and I received an immediate message that said, "Your session has been closed....Message Name: Session killed." It also said to try different browsers. I just want to say that gossip columnist, John Austin, told me that Oliver Stone seriously considered putting "Karyn Kupcinet" in his film JFK, as having foreknowledge. He decided to focus on "Rose Cheramie," as there were witnesses to her saying before it happened that they were going to kill Kennedy. Irv Kupcinet got wind of this. His tirades against that film were endless. But other columnists around the country were also outraged about JFK. Like Operation Mocking Bird? Kathy C Thanks Kathy. I will keep trying. I haven't read about Karyn Kupcient and her father recently. Is he the one who said when asked about who killed her daughter " the same bastards who killed Kennedy?" Peter, Cord Meyer said something similar and may be what you are referring to. Quote below is taken from the Meyer entry on the Spartacus site. "... In February, 2001, the writer, C. David Heymann, asked Cord Meyer about the death of Mary Pinchot Meyer: "My father died of a heart attack the same year Mary was killed , " he whispered. "It was a bad time." And what could he say about Mary Meyer? Who had committed such a heinous crime? "The same sons of bitches," he hissed, "that killed John F. Kennedy." http://www.spartacus...k/JFKmeyerC.htm

Just Bookmarked your new site, Gil. Looking forward to seeing it develop, and good luck!

Glad you got back to that Glenn... if what Monk is saying is even remotely possible, it is indeed mind boggling What makes sense as a possibility to me is a complete, non-telephoto lens film, shot from/by Zapruder's pedestal and then edited within the frame... maybe this process makes the intersprocket area "more" possible... Two films from Zap's location seems to make no sense since if you move the camera closer or father away, there is no way to keep the same angle during the entire panning... the camera would have to move side-to-side pretty significantly for every foor from the original Z location.... Greg, if Zap's film was at 24.3fps (or even slow-mo 40fps) instead and not shot thru a telephoto lens, would alteration of the "original" make more sense to you after what you've seen? Finally, if the 85 feet between cars is right, something is VERY wrong... in the extant Z film the Queen Mary is following behind by about 6-8 feet... the ONLY way Hill makes it to the limo from 85 feet is if the limo virtually stops... and even then at 20mph it takes him 3 seconds to overtake it... Greg - what did you see with regards to Hill chasing the limo? and thanks for the revelation... not sure about others but this is pretty amazing stuff to me... David (and Greg), I listened to the description Blaine gave on the Video interview and jotted down his words about Hill: " ... I've got to comment on Clint's ability that day. The vehicle was going 11 miles an hour. There were 85 feet for Clint to catch up with. He ran basically about 15 miles an hour to reach the Presidential car and he got there after thethird shot hit. …" Seems like there are two ways you can take this: 1. The Limo and the QM were separated by 85' when Hill jumped off. This is in severe contrast with what is shown in the Z film. 2. The total distance that Hill had to run to catch the limo was 85'. If this is what Blaine meant, we can calculate distance using the information furnished. Hill running at 15 mph (22 feet per second) Limo traveling at 11 mph (16.1 fps) Doing the math (and assuming the Limo does not slow down) Hill would have been 23 feet from the rear of the Limo when he jumped off the QM; and it would take Hill 3.84 seconds to reach the Limo. At 18.3 frames per second, that equals 70 frames on the Z film This still places the QM further behind the Limo than what we see in the Z film, but probably closer to 17 feet or so separating rear of limo to front of QM. Have not looked yet but if we knew which Z frames Hill Jumped off the QM, and reached the limo, we could check that out with the 70 frame estimate from Blaine's figures. Greg, which scenario comes closer to your recollection of the film you saw?

Interesting thread David. While watching the Muchmore video in this thread, I saw something curious in the background. There are 3 men on the steps leading up the grassy knoll. The one in front appears to be wearing a brown shirt. In one of the frames just before Hill reaches the limo, this guy's head disappears. The rest of his body is there, but the head disappears completely and then reappears in the next frame. Any idea on how that could happen?

Interesting observation by Brehm (Bolded Blue text above). Using Brehm's estimate of the Limo traveling 12 feet during a 4.86 second shooting sequence yields 2.47 ft/sec, or 1.68 mph average. Also using the same 12 feet of travel with an extended 8.36 second shooting sequence yields 1.44 ft/sec, or 0.98 mph average. Brehm's estimate is stark contrast to Greer's WC Testimony: Arlen Specter: What is your best estimate of the speed of the car at the time of the first, second, or third shots? William Greer: I would estimate my speed was between 12 and 15 miles per hour.

So these clever conpiracists allowed their patsy to roam around at leisure during the shooting? What if he had gone outside and was captured in a photograph taken during the shooting sequence? That would have scuppered their cunning plan. I'd be amazed if they hadn't thought of that. Paul, Your inference that Oswald was roaming around at the time of the shooting is unwarranted. To recap the available witness statements: Around 11:50: Bill Shelley and Charles Givens see Oswald on the 1st floor 12:00 Noon: Eddie Piper sees Oswald on the 1st floor Between 12:15 – 12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald eating in the 1st floor lunchroom Oswald reinforces Arnold's testimony by telling DPD he ate lunch in the 1st floor lunch room and saw Jarman and Norman together while he was there. This would have happened at 12:10 to12:15, or again at 12:20-12:25 (from Jarman and Norman's staterments). Oswald would not have known this detail unless he were on the 1st floor at the time they were. So there is a nice congruency of witness testimony that places Oswald right where he said he was: eating his lunch in the 1st floor lunchroom. No later than 12:31:30: Baker and Truly claim to see Oswald in the 2nd floor lunch room drinking a coke (exactly as Oswald claimed in his statement to DPD). For an excellent, in-depth discussion of the above by David Josephs, check out the link below: http://educationforu...opic=16336&st=0

No one in the TSBD Building testified to seeing Oswald anywhere but the first floor from 12 noon to the time of the shooting (12:30). Piper sees him on the first floor at 12 noon. Carolyn Arnold again sees him on the first floor sometime after 12:15 when she leaves her office. Baker and Truly testimony place him in the 2nd floor lunch room 75-90 seconds after the last shot is fired. During questioning Oswald told DPD he was on the first floor about the time of the shooting and then went up to the second floor to get a coke. There were numerous individuals at different floors and locations in the building who should have seen Oswald if he were anywhere else, but No one did. So LHO is on the first floor a few minutes before the shooting, and on the second floor seconds after the shooting. I think most people can connect the dots.

I believe that quote appeared in "The Crisis Years: 1960-63" by Michael Beschloss. Not sure if that is the original source. That book was published in the early 1990's

In 1971 I received a Bachelor of Science Degree from the College of Social Science at Michigan State University along with a teaching Certificate. My studies were centered on Geography, Physical Geography and History of Western Civilization, In later years I received AS Degrees in Computer Science and Electronics Engineering Technology. For the last 15 years I have been self-employed, primarily as an IT Consultant. I was in Junior High School math class when the announcement came over the PA that President Kennedy had been killed. A few hours later I was on my paper route delivering newspapers that carried headlines about the assassination. By the time of the media circus surrounding the Garrison Investigation, I had read “Rush to Judgment” and was convinced there was a cover-up taking place. Over the years, I have accumulated a modest collection of books and articles on the assassinations. I have been organizing information into a custom JFK Database I created. It is important for independent researchers to create a comprehensive account of the events that have shaped our present society. The Power Structure has an on-going interest in suppressing that story. We may never be sure of the names of the individuals who pulled the triggers in the assassinations, but we can identify the forces that were at work, the identities of the key groups and players, and the perceived threats to their special interests that provoked them into radical actions.