Richard Hocking

Robert, I watched most of The Lost JFK Tapes, but I missed the sequence discussed in your post. It will be showing again in a few days. I will try to pay better attention this time.

Marian, I read your father’s book “Who Killed Kennedy?” (published by G. P. Putnam’s Sons in 1964). I believe it is a remarkable piece of work to have been published only 5-6 months after the assassination. Regarding Thomas Buchanan’s view of the assassination, I would point to a very telling excerpt on Page 187 (of my version): “I believe the murder of the President was provoked, primarily, by fear of the domestic and international consequences of the Moscow pact: the danger of disarmament which would disrupt the industries on which the plotters depended and of an international détente which would, in their view, have threatened the eventual nationalization of their oil investments overseas.” Although Thomas Buchanan emphasized Texas oil interests, his point resonates well when viewed in the context of the entire Defense establishment. Your clarifications and insight will be appreciated by numerous members of this site. Welcome to the forum.

Thanks for that information, Todd. I went through the Murray photos and there is a figure in one that matches your description of Sanderson. He looks older than 65, so I am not positive. There is a picture of Joe Scott on the KRLD Personalities page, but I have not been able to find any comparison photo for Perringer. Since you are knowledgeable about film shot in the aftermath, I have a question that, perhaps you could answer. When the Cook/Cooper films were turned in, they were described as having 45 minutes of footage. I have gone through the Youtube 7 part videos showing excerpts from the film Don Cook shot. I would guess maybe 10 minutes of Cook footage actually appears. Is there any way to see what is on the rest of the film? Likewise, I have not been able to locate any of the film that Sanderson/Underwood shot in front of the TSBD, and from your description, possibly Perringer. There are several references to the Heavy set, Middle-aged man being put into the police car that should be somewhere in that footage.

Thanks for the reply, Robert. "To the left" of the TSBD (viewed from the front) would indicate to me the Knoll or the Rail Yard. The man you describe may have been a Rail Road employee, or someone dressed to look like one. I do not recall ever seeing this clip, so if you recall the program, I would be interested. Your "50 year" observation hits home. I will probably be watching the Cook/Cooper films again. I notice something new just about every time I look at that film.

In November of 1963, Jim Underwood and George “Sandy” Sanderson were cameramen for KRLD in Dallas. KRLD was the CBS affiliate for their Dallas coverage. In the Presidential Motorcade, Jim Underwood was in the middle front seat of Camera Car Number 3. This is the same Chevy convertible that James Darnell, Malcolm Couch, and Robert Jackson rode in, sitting in back, on top of the trunk. Sanderson was at Love Field when AF1 arrived and filmed JFK there. He later ends up in Dealey Plaza. KRLD photo of Sanderson in Link below also shows photo of Underwood: http://www.akdart.com/vtr/vtr6.html Bob Huffaker says Sanderson was 65 years old in 1963 and used a 16 mm hand held Bell & Howell Camera that shot silent film. - from the Foreward of “Into the Newsroom: Exploring the Digital Production of Regional Tellevison News” by Emma Hemmingway Underwood and Sanderson shared the same hand-held 16mm Bell & Howell camera in Dealey Plaza. Underwood filmed some of the activity on the Grassy Knoll in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. There is reason to believe Sanderson may have filmed some of the activity in front of the TSBD. Willis photo 15 shows a group of people standing in the intersection of Houston and Elm with the Dal-Tex building in the background. On the far right of the photo, there is a man holding a 16 mm camera facing the TSBD. Could this man be Sandy Sanderson? He is in the right location, at the right time, with a camera that could have taken some interesting footage. On 1/24/68, Investigator Stephen Jaffe wrote a memo to Jim Garrison after interviewing Richard E. Sprague, that contained the following: “Darnell told Sprague that he had gotten footage of a man who was being arrested, described the man as being middle-aged, a little bit husky. He said the police put him in the squad car on the Southwest corner of Houston and Elm Streets, and turned him loose after a few minutes. He further described the man who was taken into custody as being a white man, not dark complexioned. http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/J%20Disk/Jaffe%20Stephen%20Personal%20Memos/Item%2008.pdf Another Jaffe memo dated 1/26/68 stated: “Television cameraman Sandy Sanderson had taken film footage for KRLD in 16mm including an arrest and also including film of the finding of the rifle. Sprague has viewed the film by Sanderson and said that these important scenes have been omitted and no longer exist, at least for public viewing.” http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/J%20Disk/Jaffe%20Stephen%20Personal%20Memos/Item%2011.pdf Note that the memo above seems to place the arrest in the same context as the rifle being found. A Sprague memo dated 1/10/68 contains some of the same info as the 1/24/68 Jaffe memo, but adds a few observations: “He [Darnell] ran up the knoll and into the parking lot with Roger Craig and can confirm Craig's testimony. He was shooting footage all the way. He also took footage of an important arrest, a heavy-set, middle aged white man who was put in a police car at the corner of Houston and Elm. This was not Larry Florer, or Danny Arce or Charles Givens.” http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/W%20Disk/Witnesses/Item%2020.pdf Don Cook of KTVT is also included as having taken footage of the arrest and “extra rifle”. Sprague says that Willis 10 shows the arrest of this man. So, who is the man who was put into the Police car? We have film and photos of Arce, Williams, and Shelley being escorted into a different car, so we know it is not one of them. Charles Givens has also been specifically excluded. That leaves Billy Lovelady and Jack Dougherty from the group that was taken in for police interviews. But Billy Lovelady was only 26 years old in 1963, a bit young to fit the “middle-aged” description. In his Warren Commission testimony of April 8, 1964, Jack Dougherty said he was 40 years old. Roy Truly described Jack as a “great big husky fellow”. Was Jack Dougherty the “Heavy set, middle-aged man” placed in the Police car? And if not Jack, then who? I have, thus far, been unable to locate the film sequence attributed to Sandy Sanderson by Sprague, or any still photos that captured this event, but I am still looking.

This may be what you are referring to, Robert. It is contained in a letter from Richard E. Sprague to Beverly Brunson. "What you think is Lovelady's left arm is actually the arm of a negro waving in front of Lovelady. Not the negro in the doorway just in front of him, but another one, standing on the sidewalk. The man to Lovelady's left is shading his eyes with his hands as were three other people standing in the doorway. This is revealed by the Hughes film, one frame of which was in Life last November. None of these people move their hands perceptibly or throw anything." http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/B%20Disk/Brunson%20Beverly/Item%2005.pdf

Blair, below is how Craig described it: David Belin: All right. And then what did you see happen? Roger Craig: I saw a light-colored station wagon, driving real slow, coming west on Elm Street from Houston... actually, it was nearly in line with him. And the driver was leaning to his right looking up the hill at the man running down.... And the station wagon stopped almost directly across from me. And... the man continued down the hill and got in the station wagon. And I attempted to cross the street. I wanted to talk to both of them. But the... traffic was so heavy I couldn't get across the street. And they were gone before I could...

Blair, at 12:45 the police dispatcher broadcasts a description of an unknown white male, approximately thirty, slender build, height five feet ten inches, weight one hundred sixty-five pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a 30 caliber rifle. There has been a good deal of speculation where that description originally could have come from. Only a couple minutes earlier, Deputy Roger Craig, standing on the other side of Elm Street, saw a white male 140-150 pounds, brown hair, in his 20’s, white T shirt run down the slope and get into a Rambler Station Wagon. A very interesting and problematic time macro ... Richard... Being a little picky here but CRAIG did not put the white T-Shirt on the Oswald looking character getting into the Rambler, but the man in Fritz's office: As one gets deeper into the Harvey and Lee reality, I believe we can find that these two going their seperate ways after the fact can account for the sightings and feeds back into the conspiracy which sets HARVEY up for the shooting. Not the ONLY theory, but one that does explain quite a few "macro" loose ends... Cheers DJ Mr. BELIN - Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward the station wagon? Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers-- Mr. BELIN - What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light? Mr. CRAIG - No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it. Mr. BELIN - Anything else about him? Mr. CRAIG - No; nothing except that he looked like he was in an awful hurry. And Captain Fritz asked me was this the man I saw--and I said, "Yes," it was. Mr. BELIN - All right. Will you describe the man you saw in Captain Fritz' office? Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was sitting down but--uh--he had the same medium brown hair; it was still--well, it was kinda wild looking; he was slender, and--uh-- what 1 could toll of him sitting there, he was--uh---short. By that, I mean not--myself, I'm five eleven--he was shorter than I was. And--uh--fairly light build. Mr. BELIN - Could you see his trousers? Mr. CRAIG - No; I couldn't see his trousers at all. Mr. BELIN - What about his shirt? Mr. CRAIG - I believe, as close as I can remember, a T-shirt--a white T-shirt. David, I don't know how the white tee shirt snuck into my post. In my notes, Craig described the shirt as medium to light tan, just as you quoted him. Good catch, and thanks for the correction.

I believe the officer on the left can positively be identified as Dallas Police Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer. Thanks to Robin for discovering a video uploaded by Chris Davidson. Here is a link to the video on Youtube:

Blair, at 12:45 the police dispatcher broadcasts a description of an unknown white male, approximately thirty, slender build, height five feet ten inches, weight one hundred sixty-five pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a 30 caliber rifle. There has been a good deal of speculation where that description originally could have come from. Only a couple minutes earlier, Deputy Roger Craig, standing on the other side of Elm Street, saw a white male 140-150 pounds, brown hair, in his 20’s, light tan shirt run down the slope and get into a Rambler Station Wagon. A very interesting and problematic time macro ... edit: corrected the shirt description given by Craig.

richard do you know what time this was taken? or better, do you know when they started letting people go? Nearly all the staff members (that gave a departure time) said they left the TSBD between 2:00 and 2:30. That does not include Shelley, Lovelady, Givens, Arce, Bonnie Ray Williams, and Dougherty, all of whom were escorted over to the Police station for interviews. Some of the management types stayed a little bit longer.

Yet another Allen crop The top of the bottle is still visible as the police start releasing the TSBD staff to go home Friday afternoon.

i just looked at it and it's overexposed. it contains no data. My guess is it's Cletus P. Smudge or Billy Bob Jethro I gotta say, between Hertz, Fritos, Dr Pepper and KFC, there sure was a lot of product placement in JFK's assasination. A pity we can't read it. Looks like the Dr. Pepper machine was doing some brisk business that Friday.

If I had to guess, I would say empty. Another thought, Robin - with your superior skills - can you make out any clues to the name on the ID pin?

Robin, it definitely adds one more variable. If there is any way to sequence the Allen photo's, that could provide an answer. Does the bottle in his hand look empty to you?

I've always wondered what is keeping the bag upright in that photo. Curtain rods! --Tommy Tommy and Robert, Another Allen photo with the top of the bag folded over.

The detective has been identified as Elmer Boyd by a poster on the ReOpenKennedyCase forum.

So what happened to the Frito bag? Studebaker mentions a frito mixed in with the chicken bones in the brown sack. Mr. Ball. Any chicken bones in any other place? Mr. Studebaker. No. Mr. Ball. None outside the sack? Mr. Studebaker. No; they were all inside the sack, wrapped up and put right back in. It had a little piece of Fritos in the sack, too.

Here is the uncropped photo:

Looks like a 10 or 12 ounce Dr. Pepper.

Crop photo of Fritz leaving TSBD Looks like the bottle is still there as Capt. Fritz is leaving the TSBD.

Earlier, Robin Unger posted the photos of Detectives Montgomery and Johnson bringing the brown paper bag and the Dr. Pepper bottle, allegedly found near the Sniper's Lair, out of the TSBD. Going through the testimony of Montgomery and Johnson clarifies the timing question. They arrived at the TSBD at, or just before 1 pm. Both men then went to the 6th floor where they received instructions from Fritz to guard the area around the SE window to make sure no one disturbed the scene, including the bag and the Dr. Pepper bottle. They were on the 6th floor when the rifle was found (1:22 pm). It is safe to say the very earliest they could have left the building is 1:25 pm. The William Allen photos showing the bottle on the top step in the NW corner of the entrance were taken about or a few minutes before 12:45. So the bottle being removed by Detective Johnson is not the same bottle we see in the corner of the entrance. General info on Heights of Coke and Dr. Pepper bottles in 1963: Coke Bottle: 6.5 ounce - Height 7.75" 10 ounce - Height 9.5" 12 ounce - Height 9.5" 16 ounce - Height 11.75" Dr. Pepper Bottle: 6.5 ounce - Height 8.1" 8 ounce - Height 7.5" 10 ounce - Height 9.6" 12 ounce - Height 9.25" up to 9.6"

I hope the film from the Babushka Lady's camera is in those 1,100 records. If that film were locked away in private possession, it might be something to look forward to, Robert. If the authorities have had possession of it for 50 years, with access to modern digital techniques for film manipulation, I shudder to think what it would look like if it were "released" now.

Clint Bradford has a web page showing the chronology of photos/videos taken in Dealey Plaza. http://www.jfk-info.com/photos1.htm On this site, he time-stamps the Allen photos of the TSBD entrance (referenced above) as being shot around 12:42 to 12:44 pm. The Dr. Pepper bottle (and chicken bag) on the 5th/6th floor of the TSBD have not been discovered at that time. They are discovered closer to 1 o'clock. Can anyone corroborate Bradford, or provide more sources for the time of William Allen's photos?

A crop from yet another Allen photo: Bottle appears inside the left elbow of the police officer in background.