Andric Perez

On 9/14/2022 at 4:58 PM, Pat Speer said:

So it may have been a mob hit, after all.. With LBJ's blessing, of course...

Have you ever addressed the alleged Chicago plot in early November 1963? 3-4 Cubans (if I don't misremember) were seen fleeing the scene, after screwing it all up.

If this attempted plot story happened, it looks like Cuban exiles were picked as low-level participants (perhaps shooters). And they had strong motive (Perceived Bay of Pigs betrayal) and means (Guerrilla training and mob connections) to have participated.

Agree?

The article does not link to the file, which allegedly states that an informant said that someone on the FPCC told him that Oswald was a communist who infiltrated the FPCC. 

I blame myself for visiting The Mirror. 

Link: https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32245030.pdf

On December, 1963, The FBI went to Florida in search of Juan Francisco Blanco-Fernandez, head of  military section of the Directorio Revolucionario Estudiantil. (DRE).

The subject participated in a raid against Castro's Cuba in 1962 and joined the US Army later that year.

Height: 5'9
Weight: 170 lbs
Eyes: blue
hair color: black

docid-32245030.pdf

5 minutes ago, David Butler said:

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32279986.pdf

Thanks.

In document ID #32142558, dated 12/13/1963, we learn that an NBC documentary on Lee Harvey Oswald would be "in consonance" with whatever the FBI report would conclude:

A poll on the question had not been conducted in a long time, as far as I know. Now SurveyMonkey has released a new one. 

The poll is rich in responses by sub-groups (men, women, white, black, hispanic, etc.)

See it in fivethirtyeight.com: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-one-thing-in-politics-most-americans-believe-in-jfk-conspiracies/

On 9/25/2017 at 7:18 AM, Michael Walton said:

Ruby targeted Oswald, Leavelle explained, so he would have his own moment in history.

Sure Jim sure. Keep the nonsense coming.

I thought he did it because he felt very sad about Jackie, LOL. They won't make up their minds.

Johnny Abes was half-German, half Dominican. His father was a German accountant and his mother was a Dominican woman.

Was his father a Nazi? 

There is a Charles Klihr still alive. Is this him? https://www.linkedin.com/in/charles-klihr-1393ab65

I doubt it, Andric, because in 1963, Charles Klihr was a volunteer for General Walker's Dallas organization, "Friends of Walker." He was about 30 at the time. That means that today he would be 81, if he's still alive.

Now, the Charles Klihr that you cited is a Design Engineer at Nova Magnetics, Inc. in Dallas, that is. he's a working man, in his 50's, evidently, because of his grey hair. So, it's more likely that the Charles Klihr that you cited might be the son of the Charles Klihr who was a volunteer for the "Friends of Walker" in 1963. That's my estimate.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

He can't be in his 50s, since the page says he attended "North Texas State Teachers College

1949 – 1951".

OK, so, let's raise the tone of this thread again -- because the high-school heckling from the great DiEugenio and his protégé Parker is getting boring.

Let's move on to Carol Hewett's most complicated and controversial post in her PROBE articles, namely, the 1997 title, The Paines Know – Lurking in the Shadows of the Walker Shooting (Probe, Vol. 5, No. 1, January-February-April, 1998, p. 11)

This article is so filled with information (and errors) that I will need six posts just to review it at a high level. Carol Hewett notices that LHO was linked with both JFK and Walker shootings almost entirely because of evidence presented by Ruth and Michael Paine.

Carol Hewett further notices that when the Paines interacted with the Oswalds in March-April 1963, Walker was shot at. Then, when the Paines interacted with the Oswalds in October-November 1963, JFK was shot at. LHO was blamed for both shootings. At all other months of 1963, the Paines didn't interact with the Oswalds, and LHO was linked to no shootings.

This is Carol Hewett's intriguing introduction to her theory of the shooting at General Walker. Despite flaws that we should expect from an article nearly 20 years old, I find her arguments to be original and creative. Let's see how she fares on the crucial topic (says Jeff Caufield) of General Walker and LHO.

This post will be Part One. Since this is a long and involved article, here is a TABLE OF CONTENTS of my review:

PART ONE:

1.0. BACKGROUND

2.0. FIRST PUBLIC BLAMING OF LHO FOR THE WALKER SHOOTING

3.0. THE WALKER GETAWAY CAR

4.0. THE WALKER LETTER

PART TWO:

5.0. THE WALKER BULLET

6.0. FRIENDS OF THE PAINES

7.0. MICHAEL PAINE AND LHO AS PALS

PART THREE:

8.0. WITH MARINA UNDER HER WING

9.0 DINNER FOR FOUR ON APRIL 2nd

PART FOUR:

10.0. COME LIVE WITH ME ON APRIL 7th

11.0. AN ANTICIPATED ARREST -- APRIL 10 & 11

PART FIVE:

12.0. SATURDAY IN THE PARK -- APRIL 20th

13.0. A SATURDAY GUN TRANSACTION

14.0. SEPARATION AGAIN -- APRIL 24th

15.0. THE PAINES KNOW

PART SIX:

16.0. MICHAEL SAW THE BACKYARD PHOTOS IN APRIL, 1963

17.0. HUNTER OF FASCISTS INSIDE A RECORD ALBUM

18.0. RUTH AND THE GARRISON INQUIRY

19.0. CONCLUSION

So, let's get started with my general review of Carol Hewett's 1997 article on LHO, General Walker, and the Paines. Here's PART ONE:

1.0. BACKGROUND

1.1. Michael Paine’s pals in Dallas had included Everett Glover, Norman Fredericksen and Volkmar Schmidt. Fredericksen’s father had been a director for Radio Free Europe. Schmidt once studied under Wilhelm Keutemeyer, a German psychiatrist who was part of the 1944 Valkyrie plot to assassinate Hitler. Schmidt often boasted about this.

1.2. In early February 1963, the Oswalds were invited to a party at Everett Glover's. For 3-hours Volkmar Schmidt tried to convince LHO that General Walker was like Hitler, and that if Hitler had been assassinated early, millions might still be alive. Shortly after this, LHO bought weapons over the mail. (Volkmar Schmidt confessed to his knowledge about this in the PBS Frontline video on YouTube entitled, Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?)

1.3. It's common knowledge that on the day JFK rode through downtown Dallas, countless citizens were wondering when the shooting would start. Michael Paine and David Noel of Bell Helicopter were among them at lunchtime, and when they returned to their desks and learned that JFK had been shot, Michael was so nervous that he had to go home, and he agonized whether to rush to the FBI to tell them his suspicions about LHO.

2.0. FIRST PUBLIC BLAMING OF LHO FOR THE WALKER SHOOTING:

2.1. Many JFK researchers say that the first time LHO was blamed for the April 10, 1963 shooting at General Walker was in the Fri29Nov1963 issue of German newspaper, Deutsche Nationalzeitung. That issue printed a telephoned interview with General Walker given at 7am CST, Sat23Nov1963, claiming that RFK protected LHO from prosecution in April.

2.2. Carol Hewett objects to this claim, and cites WC testimony where Walker denied ever believing that LHO tried to kill him. Carol Hewett prefers to believe General Walker on this crucial point.

2.2.1. Instead, Carol Hewett claims that Michael Paine told the HOUSTON POST in time for its Sat23Nov1963 issue that Oswald was probably the Walker shooter. Michael said this out of the blue, Carol claims; as nobody suggested it before. Carol offers no evidence for this claim, since the HOUSTON POST doesn't name Michael Paine as its source. It seems Carol is merely guessing.

2.2.2. In fact, Carol Hewett herself admits that on the night of Fri22Nov1963, DPD cops and the FBI had at least one BYP snapshot and one backyard photo of Walker’s house. How can we be surprised, then, that a news reporter on Saturday night asked DPD Chief Jesse Curry if LHO was Walker's shooter? Curry simply responded that he didn’t know.

2.2.3. Yet another Dallas newspaper raised the question of a common shooter on Sat23Nov63 - only because both victims were politically prominent and both in Dallas; though one was right-wing the other liberal. (Carol mentions this fact, but neglects to name this paper.)

2.3. Some, like Gerry Patrick Hemming, noted Walker’s cavalier attitude following the shooting, and wondered whether it was one of Walker's publicity stunts. Carol Hewett accepts Walker's WC testimony that, "Walker took this attempt on his life very seriously."

2.4. Carol briefly cites the story of Walker's house boy, William Ewan Duff (McDuff) who was arrested for the crime on April 18th but quickly released after passing a lie detector test. One Duff/Oswald sighting was probably mistaken identity upon a Duff/Surrey sighting, says Carol Hewett -- with sound reasoning.

2.5. Even if LHO was the Walker shooter, Carol's question remains -- who told authorities first? If it was Michael Paine, then we have some reason to suspect his complicity says Carol Hewett. Fair enough -- so let's have some material evidence of Paine being first; Carol provides none.

3.0. THE WALKER GETAWAY CAR

3.1. The DPD had several eye-witnesses about two men leaving the Walker shooting in two cars. One car was old, light gray or green Ford. The other car was a black and white Chevy, either 1958 or 1959. No descriptions of the men matched Oswald. If Oswald was involved, then he must have had accomplices, says Carol Hewett -- with sound reasoning.

3.2. The DPD searched the Paine house on Fri22Nov63 and came upon many photographs, one of which showed the rear of Walker’s home, with a black and white 1957 Chevy in Walker’s driveway -- it's license plate blotched out. According to Robert Surrey, the black and white 1957 Chevy parked in Walker’s driveway probably belonged to Charles Klihr, a volunteer aide to Walker.

3.3. Carol then tries to match Klihr’s 1957 Chevy with the black-and-white 1958 or 1959 Chevy, by arguing that "there is sufficient similarity of 1957, 1958 and 1959 Chevy sedans" to suspect identity. She's evidently unaware that a 1957 Chevy has distinctive, wide, vertical rear fins that are impossible to mistake for any other model.

3.4. While the license plate of Klihr's car was indeed blotched out after the FBI turned over the photo, everybody knows that the FBI regularly REDACTS (blotches out) names of the innocent in documents released to the public. Still, Carol Hewett demands that the ARRB subpoena Charles Klihr to testify on the grounds that a 1957 Chevy is "similar enough" to a 1958-1959 Chevy. .

3.5. Then -- a 1958-1959 black and white Chevy was also observed in October 1963 in a field owned by Lovell Penn. Penn’s wife told the FBI that the occupants of the car were target practicing in her field. When she told them to leave, one shooter -- whom she said looked like LHO -- became rude. So, so she told the FBI after the JFK assassination. This should have also been followed up, says Carol Hewett -- with sound reasoning.

4.0. THE WALKER LETTER

4.1. Carol Hewett credits Ruth Pain for finding the famous "Walker Letter" for the Warren Commission. Actually, the Secret Service was the first to find it.

4.2. Ruth Paine, on Sat30Nov63, delivered to the Irving police one of Marina’s Russian books entitled, "Helpful Household Hints." When the Secret Service examined the book, out came fluttering the famous “Walker note,” written in Russian, telling Marina what to do in the event LHO was arrested or killed. The Secret Service gave the letter to the FBI’s James Hosty on Mon02Dec63.

4.3. Hosty got it translated, then the Secret Service banged on Ruth Paine's door that night, accusing her of passing secret messages to Marina, and of perhaps forging the letter. Ruth was shocked to be accused; all she could do was repeat the truth -- she never saw that letter before in her life.

4.4. Carol Hewett warns, "We have only Ruth’s word on it." Since the DPD searched Ruth's home "thoroughly" on the Saturday after the JFK murder, Carol doubts Ruth's word. Actually the DPD had bungled the protection of JFK and LHO on their home turf -- so I myself have little confidence in how "thorough" the 1963 DPD could truly be.

4.5. The FBI questioned Marina about the "Walker letter" on Tue03Dec63 (ten days after the JFK murder) and Marina admitted that the note was written by LHO, who had admitted to her on that same April night that he shot at Walker.

4.6. Marina claimed that she hid this note to blackmail LHO in case he ever attempted such a foolish thing again. Carol Hewett scoffs at Marina’s testimony, because Marina also said that LHO threatened to also shoot Richard Nixon, so she locked LHO in a bathroom (from the outside) until he calmed down. Yet if LHO was only teasing Marina during the Nixon story, Marina remains believable.

4.7. Ruth told the WC in 1964 that she never saw the Walker Note in her life, until the Secret Service put it under her nose on Mon02Dec63, and accused her of forging it.

4.8. Carol Hewett omits the fact that the Secret Service later accepted Ruth Paine's word, and apologized for their own behavior towards her. Carol has no further material evidence to offer.

(to be continued)

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

There is a Charles Klihr still alive. Is this him? https://www.linkedin.com/in/charles-klihr-1393ab65

While almost everyone visiting Dealey Plaza notes and photographs the X in the street marking Kennedy's location at frame 313 of the Zapruder film, there is usually a second X in the Plaza, noting Kennedy's location when first hit. Does anyone know what frame of the Zapruder film this X is supposed to represent, and if it has changed since 2011? I'll explain why I'm asking once I figure this out.

Do you know where the x is relative to Dealy Plaza landmarks? If so, we can compare to the frames.

Ruth and Michael Paine share far too many coincidences and connections to be dismissed as innocent bystanders. As some researchers have asserted - given their associations with Oswald - they should have been arrested and interrogated after the murder ... but instead they become the most quoted and interviewed of all WC testimonies.

They are suspicious beyond belief ... the innocent Quaker handlers of the alleged assassin. The Paines were most accommodating to the Oswalds before November 22nd; but highly incriminating afterwards. According to Walt Brown, the Paines were the most oft-questioned witnesses to appear before the Commission. With friends like the Paines, who would need enemies?

Ruth being simply a devoted Quaker and charity worker is analogous to believing that Carlos Marcello was just a tomato salesman. Yet we are led to believe that the alleged assassin’s family being taken care of by the generosity of the Good Samaritan Ruth Paine was a coincidental accident of history.

Ruth Paine is surrounded by a family of intelligence professionals. Her father (William Avery Hyde) was described before the Warren Commission as an insurance underwriter. He was affiliated with the Agency for International Development and became their regional adviser for all of Latin America.... an agency riddled with CIA overtones. John Hoke, (Ruth’s sister Sylvia's husband) also worked for AID. And her sister Sylvia worked directly for the CIA itself. Michael Paine is another long interesting (similar) story in himself.

The Paines show up at a convenient juncture in the Oswald story... and quickly go away after the fact. They have a convenient separation and living arrangement, with a cover story of learning to speak Russian. The incriminating evidence conveniently springs out of their magical garage, including the Walker note (after the fact). Almost everything that would convict Oswald in the public mind came out of the Paine's garage. Their initial meeting at a social party ... just too many coincidences for the rational mind.

Well, Gene, you have plenty of suspicion, but very few facts to go on. The fact that Ruth's father was a leader for AID (Agency for International Development) means nothing at all, really. You don't like the politics of AID? That's your opinion.

The fact that Ruth's sister was in the CIA is also incidental -- accidental and means nothing at all.

Ruth remains a Quaker to this day. Ruth never changed her story one iota since 1963. Ruth has never dodged the Media or any interviewers, except those rabid zombies who simply scream in her face that she's a L-I-A-R without any evidence at all.

Ruth did charity work by taking care of the PREGNANT Marina Oswald when Lee Oswald was out of work (which was frequent).

To try to read something sinister in that shows that the JFK researcher is REACHING. Grasping at straws, really.

I have no dog in this fight -- If somebody has something on Ruth Paine, I'd like to see it. But just tossing around the naked speculation, as Jim Garrison once did, that Ruth Paine *must have* been guilty of *something* is just silly, isn't it?

Ruth Paine was kind enough to respond to Jim Garrison's subpoena of her, though she didn't have to, and in fact the Dallas City Hall advised her not to. Jim Garrison grilled her for hours, in his swaggering manner. He found nothing at all. He would have charged her if he had -- believe me.

At the end, Jim Garrison just gave Ruth Paine his puppy-dog eyes and begged her to help him find some clues. But Ruth Paine had already done everything she could. If the US Government couldn't solve the JFK murder -- why expect her to?

I repeat -- if Ruth Paine is withholding anything at all, it would be about her former husband, Michael Paine, and his possible role or knowledge about LHO's shooting at General Walker. Yet since this was the 1960's, the odds are very high that Michael Paine told Ruth Paine absolutely nothing about his possible role or knowledge about LHO's shooting at General Walker.

Given that, Ruth surely can't tell what she doesn't know. Also, Ruth's character clearly isn't given to spreading rumors without facts. She's an upstanding Christian in that way.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

New York Times (December 16, 2014): "As a cold war policy tool, the agency was, at times, used as a front for C.I.A. operations and operatives. Among the most infamous examples was the Office of Public Safety, a U.S.A.I.D. police training program in the Southern Cone that also trained torturers." http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/04/15/when-is-foreign-aid-meddling/secret-programs-hurt-foreign-aid-efforts

Different Robert Morrow... the name is just a coincidence. The Robert Morrow in the post you referenced is (or was) a member on this forum.

Thanks.

What do members make of Robert D. Morrow? I have just read his book, First Hand Knowledge. He explained in a speech at the State University of New York (28th June, 1991) what the motive for killing JFK:

The assassination of President Kennedy was, to put it simply, an anti-Castro 'provocation', an act designed to be blamed on Castro to justify a punitive American invasion of the island. Such action would most clearly benefit the Mafia chieftains who had lost their gambling holdings in Havana because of Castro, and CIA agents who had lost their credibility with the Cuban exile freedom fighters from the ill-fated Bay of Pigs invasion.

I also believe that this was the primary motive behind the assassination. Therefore I read the book wanting to believe his story. Briefly, this is Morrow’s story:

After attending Pennsylvania Military College Morrow became an engineer in Pittsburgh. In 1956 he joined Martin Company as a senior engineer in Baltimore, Maryland.

In January, 1958, Morrow moved to Washington where he set up an independent laboratory at his home in Hazelwood Avenue. For the next six months he worked with Stan Clark on the Doomsday Project. In July he joined the Neurology Project with Dr. John Seipel of Georgetown University.

Mario Kohly, who had been imprisoned by Fidel Castro in Cuba, escaped and arrived in the United States in February, 1959, and began organizing exile groups against Castro. Soon afterwards Kohly met Marshall Diggs. In March, 1960, Diggs recruited Morrow to work for Kohly. Three months later Morrow met Tracy Barnes and agrees to be Kohly's CIA contact.

Kohly agrees to accept help from the CIA in overthrowing Castro and in July, 1960, the Cuban Revolutionary Council (CRC) is formed. According to Morrow, the CRC informed JFK of CIA plans to invade Cuba at the Democratic National Convention. Morrow also claims that Kohly met Richard Nixon and the CIA in October. This resulted in the formation of Operation 40.

In March, 1961, Kohly's 300 man guerrilla army in the Escambray Mountains was decimated by Castro's forces. This damaged the potential success of the Bay of Pigs operation. Kohly now changed his strategy and with the help of Morrow he started a counterfeiting operation to undermine the Cuban economy.

Morrow continued to work for the CIA and he travelled to France to pick up a package for Tracy Barnes. While in Europe he bought arms for Kohly's new army.

In July, 1963, Morrow claims that Tracy Barnes "requested that I purchase four Mannlicher 7.35 mm surplus rifles. According to Barnes, the rifles were available in the Baltimore area from Sunny's Supply Stores. Upon my agreement to make the purchase, Barnes requested that I alter the forepiece of each rifle so that the rifles could be dismantled, hidden and reassembled quickly. I thought this last request odd until I was informed that the rifles were to be used for a clandestine operation."

The following day, Morrow claims that Eladio del Valle asked him to purchase four transceivers. In August 1963, Morrow delivered these rifles and transceivers to David Ferrie. Morrow believed that that the idea was to blame Fidel Castro for the assassination of JFK in order to trigger an invasion of Cuba.

In 1976 Morrow published “Betrayal: A Reconstruction of Certain Clandestine Events from the Bay of Pigs to the Assassination of John F. Kennedy”. The book was a partially fictionalized account of what Morrow experienced between 1958 and 1964. In his book, Morrow argues that Lee Harvey Oswald went to the Soviet Union as a CIA agent. On his return he became a FBI informant.

According to Morrow in 1963 Jack Ruby, Eladio del Valle, Guy Banister, David Ferrie and Clay Shaw organized a plot to kill Kennedy. This group manipulated events to make sure that Oswald would be identified as the assassin. The actual killer was an unnamed man impersonating Oswald. This man killed J. D. Tippit when he refused to go along with the plan to kill Lee Harvey Oswald who was waiting in the Texas Theatre. When Oswald was captured alive Ruby was forced to murder him in Dallas Police Station.

His next book was First Hand Knowledge (1992). Morrow claimed it was an autobiographical account of what he knew about the assassination of JFK. According to Morrow, the major players in the plot included Tracy Barnes, William Harvey, Marshall Diggs, Carlos Marcello, Santos Trafficante, Guy Banister, David Ferrie, Clay Shaw, Mario Kohly, Eladio del Valle, Sergio Arcacha Smith, Rolando Masferrer, Michel Mertz and Thomas Davis.

Morrow account implicates people who have already been named in other books. However, three people figure prominently who do not fit into this category: Mario Kohly, Marshall Diggs and Tracy Barnes. I have to admit that I do not know a great deal about Kohly or Diggs. However, I have spent sometime studying Tracy Barnes. Some researchers have mentioned his name as a possible figure in the JFK assassination conspiracy. Barnes was a member of Operation Success, the plot to overthrow Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala in 1954. Others involved in this operation were Frank Wisner, David Atlee Phillips, E. Howard Hunt, David Morales and Rip Robertson.

in 1960 Barnes joined the Directorate for Plans and helped Richard Bissell to organize the Bay of Pigs operation. Lyman Kirkpatrick, the CIA's inspector general, wrote a report on the failed project. Kirkpatrick was highly critical of both Bissell and Barnes. He claimed that they had misled JFK and that "plausible deniability was a pathetic illusion".

Unlike Bissell and Dulles, Barnes survived the Bay of Pigs disaster and according to Morrow, in 1962 Barnes was placed in charge of Domestic Operations Division. It was this unit that organized the assassination of JFK.

Morrow claims that Barnes had a motive. The Bay of Pigs operation failed because of JFK. However, it was the CIA who got the blame. Barnes was getting revenge on JFK and at the same time was guaranteeing a successful invasion of Cuba by setting up Lee Harvey Oswald as the assassin.

My main objection to this is that this does not fit Barnes’ personality. Barnes was a left of centre Democrat. Although very anti-communist (like other senior members of the CIA this view was based on his experiences in Europe during and soon after the Second World War) he held liberal views on domestic issues.

Morrow’s portrait of Barnes is totally unconvincing. From what we know of how the CIA worked, Barnes would never have exposed himself in the way that Morrow suggests. Why would Barnes personally recruit Morrow to buy the weapons to kill JFK? Why would Barnes then involve Eladio del Valle in asking Morrow to buy the four transceivers. Then Barnes gets Morrow to deliver the rifles and the transceivers to David Ferrie. It is all very convenient for the plot of Morrow’s book, but it is not the way senior officials in the CIA worked. Why would Barnes be so convinced that Morrow would never tell his story? If Barnes had been foolish enough to let Morrow know about the conspiracy, surely he would have had him killed soon after the event took place?

The book reads like a poorly written novel (the dialogue is appalling). That is what it is – a work of fiction.

David Corn, the journalist who exposed Bill O'reilly's dubious claims regarding a war in Argentina, is linking to an article by fact-checking website MediaMatters, citing the impossible claim that O'reilly heard the gunshot that killed George DeMohrenschildt. The story was broken by researcher Jefferson Morley in 2013:

Sources:

https://twitter.com/DavidCornDC/status/570350908229296129

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/02/24/oreilly-lied-about-suicide-of-jfk-assassination/202655

http://jfkfacts.org/assassination/news/reporters-tape-exposes-bill-oreillys-jfk-fib/#comments

*I meant to type "The O'reilly/DeMohrenschildt story has legs."

Pat, do you believe those who testified in the Garrison trial to have seen Oswald with Ferrie and Clay Shaw trying to discredit CORE? There were 5 witness from that small Louissiana town who made the claim, often cited by Jim DiEugenio.

That said, Kurtz's claims need to be evaluated separately and even if Oswald did meet with Ferry, Kurtz's work does appear to be unprofessional and weakly sourced..

Really, what made you believe that most witnesses heard shots before Z-313?

Look at Altgens 6, no really look at Altgens 6.

Do you see anyone reacting to the sound of gunfire? Two shots had supposedly been fired.

Is three SSA randomly looking towards the rear evidence of rifle shots?

Or motorcycle police looking at KENNEDY's odd behavior proof?

CONNALLYs are another topic.

The SSA assigned to the VP all reacted at the sound of the first rifle shot, why can you not see any reactions after supposedly two shots in A6? One of the agents got out of the VP follow-up car, but in A6 the motorcade was still moving...

Which witness looks alarmed or distracted?

Do you understand that there is significant testimony claiming that bystanders reacted immediately at the sound of the first rifle shot?

Why can't you find one bystander that seems to have been effected by two rifle shots?

Why do you assume anyone heard the first shot at Z-189 or were aware that KENNEDY had been wounded, JACKIE wasn't aware of this, how could a bystander determine KENNEDY had been wounded?

BREHM as well as other bystanders continued to applaud KENNEDY until Z-313, don't you find this strange if they had heard shots and could recognize KENNEDY had been wounded?

What witnesses described was the first rifle shot heard at Z-313 and seeing KENNEDY 'slumping' to his left as a result

Then a second shot was heard at Z-325, in which caused JACKIE to get out of the limo and KENNEDY fell to his left as a result, from afar there is no way to have determined that the second rifle shot heard did not also hit KENNEDY. They did not have the knowledge we have today analyzing the z-film, they could only hear shots and see reactions they attributed to the sound of a shot.

Witnesses did not perceive KENNEDY had been injured until Z-313. Not bystanders, not SSA not JACKIE. Look at the evidence and stop believing the myths.

You still have not address my question, this is the last time I am going to trade posts with you unless you answer this question.

MOORMAN took the Polaroid at the moment of the first shot, MOORMAN claimed this and HILL claimed this, how is this possible?

This fact that the first shot heard occurred at Z-313 is corroborated by SUMMERS and HUDSON, how is this possible?

Not any of these witnesses recognized KENNEDY had been wounded prior to Z-313, how is this possible?

You and I can see that KENNEDY had already been wounded as depicted in Altgens #6, but the witnesses in DP did not comprehend this, it is that simple. Combined with the first shots they heard coming at Z-313 why would anyone have suspected KENNEDY had been wounded prior to Z-313?

One of your most frequent arguments is that witnesses didn't "comprehend" that JFK had been wounded prior to z-313. I don't see how this is relevant. The wound at z-313 was easy to comprehend because JFK's head was torn to pieces. This was not the case with the non-fatal wounds to JFK and Connally. Besides, You and I both believe there were shots after the head shots, yet we do not "comprehend" that these shots resulted in injuries. So I don't really understand how injury-comprehension is relevant. It is the sound of shots that we're discussing, not injury recognition.

As regards your frustration that I don't answer questions about Moorman and Hill, please remember that you refused to address testimony of a gazillion witnesses I quoted earlier. on the grounds that you have little time for it.

You have also not responded to the evidence against your theory that witnesses tend to try to sound "normal" after a few months.

You did not respond to my question about Clint Hill.

My questions you haven't answered are far more than your questions that I haven't answered.

I don't really believe your promise not to post anything unless I answer questions about your couple of witnesses.

May I ask yet another question? Why did Jack Franzen said that he heard an explosion that he thought was a firecracker and THEN after the other shots he saw blood in JFK's head? www.history-matters.com/analysis/witness/Index.htm

Why did his wife noticed the same pattern? http://www.patspeer.com/chapter7%3Amorepiecesofthepuzzle

The Frazens were not in the "upper-end" of Dealy Plaza, which you believe to be the only place this "firecracker" was heard.

Andric

The Zapruder film was altered. You don't have to believe me go listen to Doug Horne "Finally hearing the TRUTH about the JFK cover-up. " who worked for the ARRB and has determined this for a fact.

Let me give it a wild ass guess, the limo is passing and the President of the United States is in the vehicle, all of a sudden shots ring out, your friend is tugging on your leg telling you to get down and your hearing shots.

Do you believe that every person is capable of recognizing a rifle shot from echoes?

HILL also claimed she thought the SSA were returning fire.

Just divide the shots by two, six rifle shots become 3

You must be capable of explaining why MOORMAN and HILL both claimed the first shot they heard came at Z-313, no matter how many shots they heard the first one was the fatal head shot and others followed.

Try to understand what the witnesses claimed, the details get confusing if they are not put into the proper context.

Now answer my question; MOORMAN took the Polaroid at the moment of the first shot, MOORMAN claims this and so did HILL, how is this possible?

The big problem with your argument is that we are asked to believe Zapruder, his secretary, and the many, many others were

1) incapable of hearing 6 shots/echoes, but also that they

2) were wrong about hearing shots before z-313.

By your division-by-two methodology, then we would have to assume that all these witnesses heard 1 or 2 shots (two shots divided by 2 or three shots divided by 2).

Your last post also did not address why Hill and Moorman did not try to be "normal". You theorized that people tend to behave that way.

Finally, you falsely stated that Clint Hill said the first shot he heard occurred at z-313. In his WC testimony Hill said "the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head." And lets not forget that your theory that people try to go "normal" a few months after the fact has been disproved. Hill and Moorman always continued to stick with their not-normal testimony. Therefore you would be on shaky grounds to tell us that Clint Hill simply tried to match what most other witnesses were saying.

And one more question about Hill: Do you admit that your shots-divided-by-two theory posits that Hill only heard one shot? (2 divided by 1).?

How do you explain that? At one point you said that only people "at the upper end of Elm St." (Willis and his family, for instance) heard a pre-313 "firecracker". But Zapruder was not at the "upper end of Elm St.", yet he heard a shot before z-313.

You have assumed the witnesses saw the President wounded at Z-189 or Z-220 or Z-230, the evidence dictates that no one understood the President was wounded until Z-313 -> including JACKIE!

You also assumed the witnesses heard a rifle shot before Z-313, there is little evidence of this.

The movement in Zapruder's camera was so large around frame 190 that it was even greater than that of z-313. When we couple this fact with JFK's clutching of the throat before the fatal shot, it is no surprise that all those witnesses heard a shot before z-313. Please explain:

I would also like to add that your theory that people tend to try to sound "normal" after a while is on shaky grounds. During her Warren Comission testimony Jean Hill claimed to have heard up to 6 shots AFTER the head shot. There's nothing "normal" about that, compared to the typical 3-shot or 2-shot testimony of others: https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/8/8d/Photo_hsca_ex_176.jpg

Mary Moorman also stuck with her not-normal testimony even 50 years after the assassination: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread713461/pg1

Andric, good point.

There is also compelling and corroborating testimony from a significant number of witnesses that claimed first shot heard caused debris to fly from the limo.

What I have come to realize is that at the first rifle shot heard people recognized that KENNEDY 'slumped' to his left (Z-313) at Z-325 the second rifle shot rang out and MRS KENNEDY released her hold on the President to attempt to escape the gunfire and the President as a result fell to his left. Most observers interpreted the first shot heard to cause the President to 'slump' or duck to his left the second rifle shot heard to be the head shot. From any distance they could not determine which shot actually caused the President's head wound. But the two rifle shots they are referring to are depicted in Zapruder film ~Z-313 and ~Z-325.

Also remember testimonies were taken months following the event and memories change specially when influenced by a steady stream of propaganda also some people do not want to be different so they will bend their stories to appear normal.

changing testimony cannot explain why on Nov. 22, 1963, the same day of the assassination, many witnesses said they heard the first shot prior to z-313. On Nov. 22 there was still no bandwagon to jump into.

James Chaney (motorcycle officer): "and when the second shot struck him in the face then we knew someone was shooting at the President."

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle officer): "About halfway down between Houston and the underpass I heard the first shot. It sounded like a real loud firecracker. When I heard the sound, the first thing I thought about was a gunshot. I looked around and about then Governor Connally turned around and looked at the President with a real surprised look on his face…The President bent over to hear what the Governor had to say.

Douglas Jackson (motorcycle officer): "About that time I heard what I thought was a car back fire and I looked around and then to the President’s car in time for the next explosion and saw Mr. Connally jerk back to his right and it seemed that he look right at me. I could see a shocked expression on his face and I thought 'Someone is shooting at them.' I began stopping my motor and looking straight ahead first at the Railroad overpass and saw only one Policeman standing on the track directly over the street. I looked then back to my right and behind me then looked back toward Mr. Kennedy and saw him hit in the head"

Sam Kinney (Secret Service): " At this time, the second shot was fired and I observed hair flying from the right side of his head"

James Underwood (reporter): "“As we made the turn here at the intersection of Elm and Houston I heard first a loud report. It sounded to me like a giant firecracker. Then in quick succession two more."

Glenn Bennett (SS Agent): "A second shoot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the boss's head."

George Hickey ("SS Agent): "As 100-X made the turn and proceeded a short distance, I heard what seemed to me that a firecracker exploded to the right and rear. I stood partially up and turned to the rear to see if I could observe anything. Nothing was observed and I turned around and looked at the President’s car. The President was slumped to the left in the car. I heard what appeared to be two shots and it seemed as if the right side of his head was hit and his hair flew forward."

Malcolm Couch (camera“Just as the President’s car turned the corner, I heard a loud shot that sounded like at first a backfire. And then I heard another one. And then

finally a third shot."

S. M. Holland: "the President’s car was coming down Elm Street and when they got just about to the Arcade I heard what I thought for the moment was a fire cracker and he slumped over"

James Altgens: ""There was a burst of noise - the second one I heard - and pieces of flesh appeared to fly from President Kennedy's car."

Abraham Zapruder: "11-22-63 interview on WFAA, at approximately 2:10 PM) “as I was shooting, as the President was coming down from Houston Street making his turn, it was about a half-way down there, I heard a shot, and he slumped to the side, like this. Then I heard another shot or two, I couldn't say it was one or two, and I saw his head practically open up, all blood and everything, and I kept on shooting."

William Newman: "But the President’s car was some fifty feet in front of us still yet in front of us coming toward us when we heard the first shot and the President. I

don't know who was hit first but the President jumped up in his seat, and I thought it scared him, I thought it was a firecracker, cause he looked, you know, fear. And then as the car got directly in front of us well a gunshot apparently from behind us hit the President in the side of the temple.”

Frances Gayle Newman: "(11-22-63 second interview on WFAA, at approximately 1:17 PM) “We were standing next to the curb so the children could see the President. And the car was just up apiece from us and this shot fired out, and I thought it was a firecracker, and the President kind of raised up in his seat. And I thought, you know, he was kind of going along with a gag or something. And then all of a sudden the next one popped, and Governor Connally grabbed his stomach and kind of laid over to the side. And then another one—it was just awful fast. And President Kennedy reached up (with both hands she reaches for her right temple) and grabbed--it looked like he grabbed--his ear and blood just started gushing out."

Charles Brehm: "The first time he slumped and the second one really blasted him."

John Chism: "And just as he got just about in front of me, he turned and waved to the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point I heard what

sounded like one shot"

Marvin Faye Chism: "The President was standing and waving and smiling at the people when the shot happened."

In these paragraphs from Hudson's testimony to the WC, the head shot is the second shot he heard, not the first:

"He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.
Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/hudson.htm

The books and essays that I've read by conspiracy theorists do not mention John McCone or Maxwell Taylor as suspects in having participated in the JFK assassination. Can we all conclude then that they are not suspects?

After all, RFK named his son after Taylor.

But wasn't Taylor a hawk anyway? Wasn't he all for bombing Cuba during the Missile Crisis as reflected in the transcripts of the Chiefs' conversations?

Didn't Taylor ignore JFK's peaceful approach to Vietnam?

"Taylor was of crucial importance during the first weeks and months of the Vietnam War. Whereas initially President Kennedy had told Taylor that "the independence of South Vietnam rests with the people and government of that country," Taylor was soon to recommend that 8,000 American combat troops be sent to the region at once." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell_D._Taylor

The absolution of McCone and Taylor would be impressive as they were chief of the CIA and chief of the Joint Chiefs, respectively.

It's important to note that in his Bethesda talk Veciana went into great detail about his admiration for Phillips. He thought of him as a hero. When Kennedy was killed, moreover, and he realized Phillips was probably involved, he thought little of it, because he thought little of Kennedy, and thought Kennedy an impediment to his and Phillips' goal of over-throwing Castro.

It was only over time that he came to like Kennedy, and to think of his death as a tragedy. Veciana said, moreover, that he'd looked forward to the Fonzi-arranged confrontation with Phillips, only to be saddened by Phillips' behavior during the confrontation. Veciana said something about the super-spy Phillips shrinking before his eyes. His hero was made of clay.

Assuming Phillips knew how much Veciana admired him, he may very well have been less cautious than usual when arranging meetings with other operatives, in which Veciana was the second meeting.

My theory is that Veciana didn't rat on Phillips because he (Veciana) came to admire JFK. I read Fonzi's book a long time ago and my memory is fuzzy, but I believe reading that during the 70's Veciana wanted to keep raiding Cuba in the hope of topping Castro, but Phillips wanted none of this and refused to help Veciana. Phillips allegedly framed Veciana who then went to jail for a year or two based on a phony drug smuggling allegation.

If anyone here has Fonzi's book please confirm.

McAdams complained about a professor's position that his students are not allowed to express opposition to gay marriage. So Marquette suspended him.

Although Marquette as a private institution is not bound by the First Amendment, I don't think what McAdams said was that big of a deal.

Wow, what a blast from the past. I wrote that after studying the case for a year and a half. I stand by most of it. Some of it I'd forgotten.

The one thing I'd like to take back is my put-down of Wecht. At the time I under-estimated the role peer pressure plays in assassination research and society as a whole. I now consider Wecht's resistance to so many of the heavyweights of his profession remarkable, and quite admirable.

As far as Oswald's killing Tippit, I still suspect that was the case. There are quite a few reasons to suspect as much, IMO, only one of them being that the NAA tests of the paraffin casts identified gsr on his hand casts. But that's a strong suspicion, not really a conclusion.

I had not been in the forum for a long time so I googled "pat speers education forum" for recent content. Your post was one of the returned items, and had a date of Nov. 13. I just forgot to check the year. Hey, I was only 10 years off! LOL. I was even ready to purchase your "upcoming" book.