Robert Prudhomme

That's just what he does. It's an OCD thing.

Next: Thomas sees Badge Man!

Quite simple, Thomas. Shelley was shorter than Lovelady, and that is NOT Shelley and Lovelady walking down the Elm St. extension as Baker goes running across the street.

After observing the "Shelley" & "Lovelady" walking down Elm St. extension gif a few times, it is clear that these two fellows were walking down the middle of the street, and that the one thought to be Shelley is noticeably taller than the other one. At one point, toward the end, they appear to be the same height, but very close observation reveals that, as he pulls ahead, "Lovelady" actually gets up on his tiptoes for a second or two, in an attempt to get a better look at what is going on at the Grassy Knoll.

LOL great story! I thought I'd reached the punchline when you said "Moss works quite well [as TP] but, the thing the survivalists never tell you about moss is that it is full of fallen spruce needles!" I forgot to mention that Lovelady seemed to be doing the same procedure, but a little out of the normal sequence. We usually cut the sleeves off first (in sections) and, once they were gone, THEN we went after the tails of the shirt.

Something funny you guys might get a laugh out of that is slightly related to the plaid shirt. When I worked as a logger on the West Coast, we were always way out in the deep woods; far from any washroom and, of course, toilet paper. As it rains so much here, I used to keep a good amount of paper towel wrapped up in a plastic shopping bag in the back pocket of my jeans to keep it dry until I needed it for T.P. Of course, once it was all used up, a person didn't always have the presence of mind to replenish the stocks once he got home, and many a time I was caught having to have a B.M. in the woods without any T.P. Moss works quite well but, the thing the survivalists never tell you about moss is that it is full of fallen spruce needles, and the part of the body you are trying to clean is rather sensitive to a bunch of pointy spruce needles being drug over it. Know what we do? Out comes the pocket knife, and the first thing to disappear is one of the pockets on our work shirt, which makes a very soft brand of T.P. Once the pockets are gone, we start working on the sleeves, and when we have nothing left but a long vest, we start on the shirt tails. Once they're gone, the next thing to go is the collar, but it's not really considered the "creme de la creme" of T.P., as it's usually a bit stiff, and by that point we were usually buying another shirt at the commissary, or using moss. When I saw Lovelady in the shortened shirt with no pockets, my first thought was "Yup, sleeves are next!"

Robert, I agree with you regarding the missing pocket. But as for the shirt being snug, it could be that Lovelady put on some weight. You make an interesting point about the shirt being in storage for a long time. Why would Lovelady have kept that shirt? To commemorate the JFK assassination? Wasn't there anything more reasonable to keep than a shirt? Was the shirt controversial way back then? If not, I don't know why Lovelady would have singled it out to save. He might have put on weight but that still doesn't explain the shirt on the right being so much shorter than the 1963 shirt. Did he cut the tails AND the pocket off the shirt? I don't believe they are the same shirt. Oh yeah, good point. It seems to have become way shorter, more so than what one would expect from washing in hot water. I can't believe that a person would save a special shirt and then alter it in meaningless ways like cutting it short or taking off the pocket. Especially a man. When you say you don't believe they are the same shirt, do you mean the large and small one? Or the 1963 and later one? I thought the only choice was the 1963 plaid shirt and the plaid shirt in the 70's. Was there another shirt? Did I miss something?

Well, according to www.prayer-man.com , this photo was taken in 1945, and if nothing else, the boys from ROKC know how to do their homework. Bill Shelley was born in July of 1925, making him about twenty years old in this photo. Unless he was an exceptionally late bloomer, I'd say he had done about all of the growing he was going to do. You don't really appreciate just how short Bill Shelley was until you get a look at the larger photo from which the crop I posted was taken.: http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/bill-shelley/# Left click on photo with "1945" under it. Unless the officer beside Shelley is a literal giant, I'd say Shelley was precisely what I thought he was; a very short man, and nowhere near as tall as the 5' 8" tall Bill Lovelady. It's not looking too good for the Lovelady and Shelley stroll down the Elm St. extension just seconds after the last shot, Tommy.

Hey! I can see the pocket!

Howdy Bob, I'd say the short guy (in the front row) who is wearing the officer's hat is "Lieutenant Shelley." Remember, he's pretty young here, and his face will change a bit over the next several years. -- Tommy Oh, so you know how old he was in this photo, Thomas?

Looks to me like a small wrinkle going across the shirt. The wrinkle becomes more pronounced further to the right. Several of these tiny wrinkles can be seen. Ray, I see the top edge of the pocket. It's hanging out and away from the shirt proper by just a smidgen, but it is noticeable to those who are willing to see it. As regards the possibility that Lovelady may have put on a few pounds, it's also possible that the reason the shirt seems to have shrunk is because it has -- maybe somebody (probably "careless" Lovelady, himself) washed it in water that was way too hot. How's that for a mundane explanation? So to reiterate, I do see the pocket. (But then again what would you expect from a notorious "lone nutter" / "disinfo agent" such as me?) LOL -- Tommy Oh yeah, Tom, shrunk the tails right off the shirt, along with the pocket. You're embarrassing yourself. I'll bet you can see Badge Man, too.

Robert, I agree with you regarding the missing pocket. But as for the shirt being snug, it could be that Lovelady put on some weight. You make an interesting point about the shirt being in storage for a long time. Why would Lovelady have kept that shirt? To commemorate the JFK assassination? Wasn't there anything more reasonable to keep than a shirt? Was the shirt controversial way back then? If not, I don't know why Lovelady would have singled it out to save. He might have put on weight but that still doesn't explain the shirt on the right being so much shorter than the 1963 shirt. Did he cut the tails AND the pocket off the shirt? I don't believe they are the same shirt.

And if he continued to wear this shirt to work, why did it not get worn out in the next decade? My work shirts are lucky to last a year.

If Lovelady wore the plaid shirt for the last time on the day of the assassination, and then put it into storage until he wore it for demonstration purposes in the 1970's, why would the pocket be missing? And why does it look like it shrunk while in storage? P.S. Please ignore the text accompanying the second photo. It was the only full photo of the 1963 shirt I could find.

One of these is supposed to be Lt. Hoyt Shelley (William Hoyt Shelley), part of his high school's ROTC program. Which one is Shelley?

Beside losing the pocket, the shirt looks like it shrunk in storage.

Is Bill Shelley still alive? If not, are his descendants still in Dallas?

bump

When was the photo on the left taken?

Many German troops, coming up against a regiment of British (or Canadian) riflemen armed with Enfields thought they were opposing automatic weapon fire. These rifles really were that fast, although I'll bet not a single Commonwealth soldier wouldn't have been happier if he was armed with an M1 Garand. I can't quite recall how many rounds per minute each soldier was expected to fire from his Enfield, as the bare minimum, but I recall it was a rather blistering rate of fire. One thing that wasn't mentioned in the video is the comparison between the Enfield's "push feed" system and the Mauser's "controlled feed" system. Pictured below is a Mauser action loading a cartridge into the chamber of, I believe, a K98 Mauser. Note that the claw extractor (lower part of bolt) must hold the cartridge against the bolt face as it is fed into the chamber, looking like this: The Enfield, on the other hand, utilizes a "push feed" system, whereby the bolt face merely pushes the cartridge ahead of it, and its hinged extractor claw does not grasp the rim of the cartridge until just as the bolt has delivered the cartridge into the chamber. Enfield hinged extractor claw shown as No. 12 above. Note bare face of bolt. There are some who would say the difference in the two feeding systems would not have any effect on how fast the rifle can be reloaded but I would disagree with them. Having shot both Enfields and Mausers, I believe the Mauser controlled feed system offers just enough resistance to slow the loading process down. I also believe the narrator of this video, in typical British understatement, does not assign nearly enough credit for the Enfield's rapid action to the fact the Enfield bolt does not cock until the bolt is almost closed, making for completely free travel of the bolt. Can you imagine how quickly the deLisle's shortened bolt could be operated with the .45 ACP cartridges?

Howdy Bob! Mistakes will happen, be they by the FBI or Buell Wesley Frazier. What does it matter what Shelley's and Lovelady's respective heights were as long as they were within a couple inches of each other? They look about the same height to me in Couch / Darnell, so given Lovelady's distinctive plaid shirt along with the bald spot on the top-rear of his head, and given Shelley's distinctive hairstyle and the dark suit he was wearing on his slender frame, and given their first-day statements, those two guys walking down Elm Street Extension (with the slender suit-wearing one cutting over towards the "island") must be .... well ... Shelley and Lovelady! -- Tommy PS You mean to tell me you think the FBI was telling the truth for a change? Tsk. tsk, tsk. What's getting into you, Bob? PPS Please remind me where you want Shelley and Lovelady to be one, two, three, four, and five minutes after the assassination You know, for your theory to work, I mean. Thanks! This post is not worthy of a response.

Thomas Do you think the FBI was lying when they stated, in their report, that Bill Lovelady was 5' 8" tall? If you believe they lied about this, give one logical reason they would do so.

They were not Shelley's arrest records, when we found the doc at the archives we thought he did have one, but whoever did the research put a William Sheley in Shelley's file. And how do you know height differences of the two when these two are perhaps (!) not even walking on the same surface, be it just for a moment. You don't know his height and therefore doubt it is Shelley, yet the photos and above all the statements point to it that they are and that they lied to the WC about them staying there even when Wiegman shows that Lovelady and Shelley are moving to make their way down and cannot be seen in Darnell on the stairs but walking and even clearer in Couch. I could continue talking about this till the cows come home but we would descend into Doyle/Cinque/Fetzer territory and unless I see evidence to the contrary I stand by what I posted. All the best! They are both walking in the middle of the Elm St. extension roadway.

Thomas Do you really mean to tell me you are willing to accept hearsay evidence from Gary Mack, one of the biggest proponents of the Crazy Kid Oswald theory that ever switched sides, over a report from the FBI which clearly states Bill Lovelady was 5' 8" tall? Now, think really hard about this one, Thomas. What possible reason would the FBI have to lie about Lovelady by stating he was 5' 8" instead of 5' 2", as Gary Mack claims he was told by Frazier? If anything, wouldn't the FBI WANT Lovelady to be 5' 2", instead of 5' 8", which would put him uncomfortably close in height to Oswald, who was 5' 9" tall? Do you think the FBI lied when they recorded Lovelady's height as 5' 8"?

Thomas Let's just agree to disagree for the moment. I have been looking very hard to find Shelley's height, and if turns out he was slightly taller than ovelady, it will be very convincing in regards to S & L being seen walking down the Elm St. extension. Bart In the arrest records you found for Shelley, were his height and weight given?