Robert Prudhomme

Thomas Are you purposely trying to confuse the issues here? I am making only one argument, and would appreciate it if you left me out of the rest of the discussion. You have no conclusive proof that Lovelady and Shelley can be seen walking down the Elm St. extension, outside of some "enhanced" stills that purport to show Lovelady's plaid shirt in great detail. Who did the enhancement on these stills?

Looks to be altered to me, Thomas. If you enlarge these photos, even their heads look plaid.

Howdy Bob, If you really do accept the fact that Lovelady was wearing his red and white and black and grey plaid shirt on 11/22/63, then you should be able to admit to yourself that Lovelady was captured on film walking down Elm Street Extension just a few seconds after the assassination. Why? Because he was wearing the same darn shirt. When you see that distinctive shirt in and around Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63, you know it's being worn by Billy Nolan Lovelady. -- Tommy I hate to keep raining on your parade, Thomas, but, what was Shelley wearing as he walked down the Elm St. extension? I don't think Shelley had a plaid jacket on that day but, doesn't he appear to be wearing plaid or checks in the stills in your post? BTW, have you found out how tall Shelley was yet? P.S. On closer examination, Shelley's and Lovelady's heads appear to be plaid or checked, as well. Half the people in these photos look to be plaid or checked.

There seems to be some misunderstanding here, which is quite typical for this forum. If you read my posts carefully, you will see I am not attempting to argue that Lovelady was not wearing a plaid shirt the day of the assassination. I know he had a plaid shirt on. There are more than enough photos to prove this. What I am wondering is why the FBI was so intent on claiming Lovelady stated he was wearing a red and white vertically striped shirt on 22/11/63. "On February 29, 1964, Billy Nolan Lovelady was photographed by Special Agents of the FBI at Dallas, Texas. On this occasion, Lovelady advised that on the day of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, November 22, 1963, at the time of the assassination, and shortly before, he was standing in the doorway of the front entrance to the TSBD where he is employed. He stated he was wearing a read and white vertical striped shirt and blue-jeans."

Howdy Bob, So either the FBI assumed incorrectly and brazenly put words in Lovelady's mouth, or Lovelady, not the sharpest knife in the drawer, remembered incorrectly. Didn't Lovelady, either before or after this FBI interview, identify himself in the Altgens 6 photo, Bob? When you look at a good enlargement of Altgens 6, does it look to you as though "Door Man" / Lovelady is wearing that bold red and white vertically-striped, short-sleeved shirt on that cool and blustery late-November day? Don't get all Cinqueish and Feltzerish on me now, Bob. What do you think Lovelady was wearing during the assassination, Bob? Why can't you accept the fact that that's Lovelady walking down the Elm Street Extension towards the Parking Lot, and that he starts running in that direction while Shelley starts crossing over the street towards the "island"? -- Tommy It's quite simple, Thomas. We now know with certainty that Lovelady was 5' 8" tall. Find out how tall Shelley was and you might have a solid argument.

No, the report did not say they assumed he was wearing a red and white vertically striped shirt, it claims he stated he was wearing a red and white vertically striped shirt; either on 29/02/64 or 22/11/63. Now, the likelihood of Lovelady stating what he was wearing on 29/02/64, while in the company of FBI agents, is somewhat remote; as they could obviously see for themselves what he was wearing. This could only mean it was inferred he stated he wore the red and white vertically striped shirt on 22/11/63. Now, as Lovelady knew perfectly well what he was wearing on 22/11/63, and it was NOT a red and white vertically striped shirt, why do you think the FBI felt compelled to lie in their report about what Lovelady was wearing on 22/11/63?

Howdy Bob, It would appear, then, that the FBI either misunderstood Lovelady, or that they intentionally screwed it up. There's plenty of photographic evidence that Lovelady was wearing his red and white and black and grey plaid shirt on 11/22/63. (Note the pack of cigarettes in his shirt pocket.) Sounds like the shirt Lovelady was wearing wasn't the only thing the FBI screwed up on. -- Tommy BTW, 170 lbs. or 160 lbs? Better check again, Bob. The question is, why would the FBI try to establish Lovelady was wearing a red and white vertically striped shirt?

Howdy Bob, Gary Mack was mistaken, or Buell Wesley Frazier was mistaken? -- Tommy Why don't you call Buell and ask him? Seriously, Thomas, I think I would go with what the FBI told us, not some uncorroborated "interview" Gary Mack claims to have conducted. Unless, of course, you can get Buell to back up Gary's claim.

Just a quick explanation on rifles equipped with silencers (suppressors) that shoot supersonic bullets (bullets travelling faster than the speed of sound. While these devices will reduce the muzzle blast of a rifle, they will not completely eliminate it. Even the deLisle carbine seen in the video in my last post, arguably one of the quietest weapons in history, still registers a muzzle blast of 85 decibels. What is most noticeable about a suppressed high powered rifle is the supersonic "crack" of its bullet breaking the sound barrier as it travels to its target. Contrary to popular belief, the bullet will not make just one sonic boom as it first passes through the sound barrier. It actually makes one continuous sonic boom the entire time it is breaking the sound barrier. If this bullet travels 300 yards before hitting something, and stays above the speed of sound the entire trip, it will make a sonic boom that every ear witness along the entire 300 yard course of the bullet will hear as being right beside him. This is why the Deputy Sheriffs all ran down to the Grassy Knoll, despite the obvious fact that at least two, and possibly more, of the bullets originated from behind the limo. If the muzzle blast of a rifle is sufficiently suppressed, the greatest amount of noise (and the longest lasting noise) will be the sonic boom made by the bullet. As this bullet passes various vertical objects, such as buildings, it will reflect off these objects as echoes. Many of these echoes will return toward the origin of the shots. The closest echoes will return first, followed by echoes originating slightly further out and so on; giving the ear witnesses a progressive series of echoes appearing to be coming from the Grassy Knoll and deceiving the ear witnesses into believing this was the origin of all of the shots. It does not work quite as efficiently as I have described, although tactical planners rely on suppressors to deceive ear witnesses by from 90° to 180°.

So, one more time, if Bill Lovelady was 5' 8" tall, how tall was Bill Shelley?

Funny that the FBI would claim Lovelady made this statement. "On February 29, 1964, Billy Nolan Lovelady was photographed by Special Agents of the FBI at Dallas, Texas. On this occasion, Lovelady advised that on the day of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, November 22, 1963, at the time of the assassination, and shortly before, he was standing in the doorway of the front entrance to the TSBD where he is employed. He stated he was wearing a read and white vertical striped shirt and blue-jeans."

RE: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN FITZGERALD KENNEDY, NOVEMBER 22,1963, DALLAS, TEXAS TSBD where he is employed. He stated he was wearing a read and white vertical striped shirt and blue-jeans. Lovelady stated his picture has appeared in several publications, which picture depicts him on the far left side of the front doorway to the TSBD. Lovelady was exhibited a picture appearing on Pages 4-5 of the magazine entitled, "Four Dark Days in History," copyright 1963 by Special Publications, Inc., 6627 Hollywood Boulevard, Los Angeles 28, California. He immediately identified the picture of the individual on the far left side of the doorway of the TSBD as being his photograph. He stated this same photograph, or one identical to it, has appeared in the Dallas Times Herald newspaper of November 23, 1963, and in the Cincinnati Inquirer, of December 3, 1963. He stated it also appeared in an edition of " The Saturday Evening Post," the date of which he does not know. Mr. Lovelady stated his close resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald has become somewhat embarrassing. He stated his stepchildren, Timmy Ekstedt, age 6, and stepdaughter, Angela Ekstedt, age 4, were watching television shortly after the assassination at a time when Lee Harvey Oswald was shown while in custody of the Dallas Police Department and both of these children remarked that they thought their daddy was on television referring to his close resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald. The following physical description and background information was obtained from interrogation and observation of Lovelady: Name: Billy Nolan Lovelady Race: White Sex: Male Born: 2/19/37, Myrtle Springs, Texas Height: 5'8" Weight: 170 Eyes: Green Hair: Brown, thin Build: Medium Complexion: Medium Residence: Apartment C, 7722 Hume Drive, Dallas, Texas, no telephone Business Address: Texas School Book Depository Bldg., 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Texas, telephone RI 7-3521 Wife: Patricia Ruth Lovelady Children: Stepson, Timmy Ekstedt, age 6 Stepdaughter, Angela, age 4 Daughter, Sheryl Lovelady, age 14 months. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/cd457.htm

Howdy, Bob! Who the heck told you Lovelady was 5' 8" ? Buell Wesley Frazier told Gary Mack that Lovelady was only about 5' 4". Gary: Lee was about 5’9” or so [5' 9.5"]. How tall was Billy [Lovelady]? Buell: I don’t actually know how tall he was, but I would probably say Billy was probably maybe in the 5’2”/5’3” area. And I’m not sure about whether that’s correct or not, but I… maybe 5’4” at the most probably. http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=5647.125;wap2 While we're at it, Bob, would you like to comment on the distinctive shirt Lovelady's wearing in the photos Bart posted, above? Or do you think that guy isn't Lovelady at all, but Ralph Cinque's / Jim Fetzer's "Neanderthal Man," instead (who is visible blowing cigarette smoke out of his mouth on the front steps of the TSBD several minutes after the assassination in the Hughes and Martin films, and also visible sitting in a chair in the police department, watching them bring Oswald in right past him). And that it's just a coincidence that Lovelady and "Neanderthal Man" were wearing the same exact shirt? LOL ! -- Tommy Gary Mack was mistaken. We have been through all of this before, and I distinctly recall it being quite well established that Bill Lovelady was 5' 8" tall. I can't quite recall where that was found but, just for you, I will locate the source. Once again, just how tall was Bill Shelley?

Bill Shelley's height matters immensely, as the person purported to be Shelley walking down the Elm St. extension is clearly a bit taller than the 5'8" Bill Lovelady. If it turns out Shelley stood shorter than 5'8", it would cast serious doubt on these two being Shelley and Lovelady. And this, of course, brings us back to the question; when did Truly and Baker enter the TSBD? As Bill Shelley is practically the only witness who saw them going up the front steps of the TSBD, and claimed to have done so when he and Lovelady were twenty-five steps from the entrance, it is well worth determining if he and Lovelady actually walked down the Elm St. extension. Interestingly, everyone seems to believe the WC testimony of both Shelley and Lovelady to be partly true and partly untrue. It seems to be accepted as fact the S&L went down the Elm St. extension together to the rail yard while their testimony that they remained on the steps for 3-4 minutes, following the last shot, is believed to be untrue. Rather selective, I dare say. However, in Bill Shelley's affidavit of 22/11/63, he makes no mention of how long he stayed on the steps; only that he ran across the street to the corner of the park. No mention is made of walking with Lovelady down the Elm St. extension to the rail yard. He merely states that he went back inside the building and called his wife. Lovelady, in his 22/11/63 affidavit, does not mention leaving the steps. He merely states that "After it was over we went back into the building...." (underlining mine). Has it not occurred to any of you the walking of Shelley and Lovelady to the rail yard was a fabrication to 1) back up the Truly and Baker tale of an early entry into the TSBD and 2) discredit Victoria Adams' sighting of Shelley and Lovelady on the 1st floor by chronologically placing it several minutes after Truly and Baker supposedly ascended the steps to the 5th floor?

So, just how tall was Shelley?

No, I don't believe that is Shelley and Lovelady. From every photo I have seen of Shelley, he appears to be a rather small man. Lovelady was 5'8" tall, and the man purported to be Shelley appears to be taller than the man purported to be Lovelady.

Has anyone ever been able to find out how tall Bill Shelley was?

Robert, I'm very impressed with this scientific approach. I was, indeed, repeating the arguments of the FBI experts who testified to the Warren Commission. But this raises a very important question, IMHO, namely: if frangible bullets caused the damage to the windshield and passenger side chrome above the windshield -- then clearly there were more than four bullets fired into the JFK limo -- isn't that implied in your scenario? May I ask -- and I realize this can only be preliminary -- what is your rough estimate of how many frangible (and other bullets) would account for all the wounds and damage and fragments found? Regards, --Paul Trejo Hi Paul That's the $64,000 question, isn't it? So far, I count 3 bullets striking JFK (1 from in front and 2 from behind), 1 and possibly 2 bullets striking Connally, 1 striking the chrome frame top of the windshield and 1 striking the curb down by the Triple Underpass. Let's see, that's 3 + 2 + 1 + 1 = 7 shots and, somehow, the majority of witnesses heard only 3 shots. How did they pull it off? I believe it was a simple matter of controlling the evidence. How do we know how many bullets and fragments of bullets were found in JFK, Connally and the limo? We have relied entirely on the WC, the FBI and the Secret Service; and the evidence that was the body of JFK and the limo was removed from Dallas before a proper investigation was conducted, and any evidence produced after this occurrence was, to say the least, tainted. So far, I have attempted to accommodate the WC by making all of my theories fit into a scenario where only high powered rifles were employed in the assassination; primarily 6.5mm Carcanos. However, if we assume the ballistic evidence not to be trustworthy, this opens the door to all manner of ballistic possibilities. So let us say we are planning this assassination together. Failure is not an option, so common sense tells us we want as much firepower as possible to guarantee JFK is finished off, yet we don't want any of the shooters taking more than 1 or 2 shots, as this will allow witnesses to home in on the sources of these shots. We also don't want more than 2 or 3 shots to be heard if we are planning to blame this on one shooter armed with a bolt action rifle, as there are physical limits to how many shots he could get off. Once again, the answer lies in a device for a firearm known as a "silencer" or a "suppressor", except I neglected to tell you the whole story when I discussed them previously. I've already discussed how suppressed rifles shooting bullets at supersonic velocities could be employed to make witnesses believe shots were originating from the opposite direction of their true origin. Perhaps I should go over this again, and then discuss how suppressed weapons shooting subsonic bullets could be used at the same time. While I am writing the next post, here is a video about the deLisle carbine that Chris Newton has spoken of several times, designed and built in WW II as a silenced commando weapon. Using the action of a .303 Lee Enfield rifle, it shoots a .45 ACP pistol bullet at subsonic velocities.

"At the same time, whatever dented the windshield on the driver's side and the windshield chrome on the passenger side could not have been whole bullets, since those would have punctured clean holes and flew for another mile. So they had to be fragments." You're still thinking in terms of conventional bullets. The dent in the chrome on top of the windshield frame might be exactly what we would expect to see if an early version of a frangible bullet had struck it. Remember, one of the selling points of early frangible bullets (and modern frangible bullets), such as the Glaser Safety Bullet, was these bullets did not cause collateral damage, as they would break up when they struck an extremely hard surface. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaser_Safety_Slug While the Glaser Safety Slug will disintegrate when it hits steel, stone or concrete, it will still impact these items at speed, and I imagine the blue polymer ball in the tip of the bullet, which does not disintegrate, would be capable of putting a dent in the chrome above the windshield.

Robert, This suggests to me that C2766 (CE 139) which was allegedly LHO's rifle -- surely could have fired both FMJ and frangible bullets. That suggests, also, that any Mannlicher-Carcano rifle could have done the same. I am reminded here of Robert Morrow's book, First Hand Knowledge (1992) in which he claims that in the summer of 1963, CIA Agent Tracy Barnes personally asked Morrow to customize four Mannlicher-Carcano rifles to be quickly disassembled and reassembled, and deliver these to David Ferrie in New Orleans. Morrow did this, and then after the JFK assassination, Morrow heard David Ferrie boasting about his "big game" hunting. Robert Morrow said he was always impressed by the intellect of David Ferrie, and he personally became convinced that David Ferrie was the mastermind of the JFK assassination -- that is, that even Guy Banister reported to David Ferrie. Well, that only goes to show that people typically see only what is closest to them. Since Tracy Barnes was CIA, Robert Morrow presumed that David Ferrie was also CIA -- and this guided Robert Morrow's hasty conclusions toward a CIA-did-it scenario. More likely, IMHO, Tracy Barnes was involved in a plot to assassinate Fidel Castro, and so was David Ferrie -- at first. Then David Ferrie was drafted into a JFK plot, known only to civilians in New Orleans, Miami and Dallas (as well as to CIA rogues, David Morales and Howard Hunt, who both confessed). Lee Harvey Oswald -- originally involved in the plot to assassinate Fidel Castro, got caught in the crossfire as a Patsy. Getting back to the main point about the four Mannlicher-Carcano rifles. All of them would be able to fire both FMJ and frangible bullets. Finally, getting back to the theme of this thread -- the hole in JFK's throat noticed by so many Parkland Hospital staff, as well as the horizontal nick in the knot of the necktie worn by JFK, is well-explained as coming from a fragment of a frangible bullet, from the inside out -- which possibly dented the windshield after that point, and was later found in the front seat of the JFK limo. Regards, --Paul Trejo <edit typos> Hi Paul Considering that the evidence so far seems to point toward whatever exited JFK's throat travelling on a downward angle, as it passed through his neck, it is a bit of a stretch to imagine this projectile managing to dent the top of the windshield frame; or ending up on the front seat of the limo.

Yes, the photos are quite amazing. I also think Tom's discovery of the stereoscopic effect to be quite amazing too. I'm waiting patiently for my stereoscopic viewer to arrive in the mail from Ebay. While the stereoscopic effect might just be a fluke stemming from two photos being taken, one immediately after the other but from slightly different angles, I am intrigued by how Tom described Oswald's head, in stereoscopic view, as seeming to stand out closer to the photographer by what appeared to him to be close to a foot. Your last question is a very good one. I think he made this statement while being interrogated by Fritz.

Sorry about that Michael. I did see the gif you posted but for some reason it didn't really click with me until I saw Sandy's gif. As I said, seeing the photo of the two tourists standing in the back yard with the cardboard Oswald planted a seed in my brain, and it finally sprouted. I'm sure your gif helped too.

I just noticed something about John Lattimer's "test" bullet, seen below: Lattimer is asking us to believe this bullet was fired from a rifle and, due to deformation of the bullet, has extruded a certain amount of lead out the base of the bullet. If this bullet was fired from a rifle, where are the rifling marks on the bullet? How stupid does he think we are? It is also interesting to note that, while this amount of lead has extruded from the base of his test bullet, it is still attached to the rest of the bullet's core. In other words, much more lead than this must extrude before the extruded portion begins to separate from the rest of the core. CE 399 shows no lead extruding from its base, meaning either 1) not enough deformation of CE 399 took place to cause an extrusion of lead or 2) enough lead had extruded to allow external forces to separate the extrusion from the core, and the separation took place just inside the base of the bullet jacket. If the latter is true, it is not difficult to figure out that much more than 2 grains of lead had to have extruded and separated from the base of CE 399.

Holy crap! I can see it plain as day now! In the photo with the gun in the lower position, his head is enormous! I recall looking at the BYP of the two tourists standing with the cardboard cutout of LHO and thinking there was something odd. I see it now. Good show, Sandy. As usual.

The SBT story and the pristine CE 399 story have a major problem once we get to Connally's wrist and the minute fragments found there. If a FMJ bullet struck Connally's wrist, there is only one way it could leave fragments of lead in the wrist. Look at these images: As can be seen, a full metal jacket bullet jacket does not really encompass the lead core entirely. The copper alloy jacket is open at the base of the bullet, exposing the lead core. In the case of the 6.5mm Carcano bullet, this exposed lead base is about 4.5 mm in diameter. There are two reasons for doing this: 1) As part of the manufacturing process, the lead core is inserted into the base of the copper alloy jacket. 2) Leaving the base open makes the FMJ bullet far more humane, and the source of less grievous injuries. How does it make it more humane? It's quite simple, really. When a FMJ bullet contacts large bones, it will normally deform and flatten. There are many ways it can deform but all have one thing in common; the deformation will cause the space inside the bullet jacket to become smaller. Lead is so soft and malleable that, at hyper velocities, it will behave almost like a liquid. If the bullet jacket was fully enclosed, the flattening and deforming of the jacket would be trying to compress the lead core into a smaller space and, being uncompressable, a great hydraulic pressure would build up inside of the jacket and rip the bullet apart. At this point, the so called humane FMJ bullet would become something as devastating as a hollow point bullet, and it would make a great and horrible wound. However, with the open base on the FMJ bullet, we have something that can be thought of as a "pressure relief valve". As the FMJ bullet deforms, pressure will still rise but, instead of reaching critical levels inside the jacket, the lead will merely extrude out the base of the FMJ bullet; the same as if you were squeezing toothpaste out of a tube when you brush your teeth. Many times, FMJ bullets will leave a trail of lead fragments behind them as they pass through bone and tissue. It would be nice if the fragments found in Connally's wrist could be explained away as bits of lead that were extruded from CE 399 as it struck Connally's wrist but, there is a problem. CE 399 is simply not deformed enough to have raised internal pressures to the point the lead core would start extruding out its base. Sure, the back end of the bullet is a bit out of round, but the overall volume of the inside of the jacket has not been reduced. Another important point is there is no extruded lead seen hanging from the base, as seen in this photo: This is a test bullet fired by John Lattimer. While John was attempting to convince us of the number of fragments found in Connally not being too many, he inadvertently revealed something even more damning to the case for CE 399. The test bullet shown is what we would expect to see if a bullet had been extruding lead out of its base. The lead has to extrude a certain minimum distance before external forces cause the lead to break off in fragments. Typically, one will see this much lead left hanging out the base. However, there is a chance the extruded lead from CE 399 did break off just inside the base, leaving what we see here: If a certain amount of lead must be extruding before external forces cause it to separate, and if the extruded lead from CE 399 broke off inside the base of CE 399, there simply has to be more than 2 grains of lead missing from CE 399. A LOT more. This is one of the things I love about JFK research. So many of their "experts" thought themselves so clever, and yet, it is their very own evidence that ends up tripping them up. Now, I don't know if this has occurred to you while I've been rambling on here but, given what we now know about the built-in "pressure relief valve" on a FMJ bullet, has it occurred to you that the bullet that disintegrated inside JFK's head could not have disintegrated, if it was a FMJ bullet? P.S. The test bullet in Lattimer's photo does not appear deformed enough to have extruded as much lead as Lattimer claims.