Robert Prudhomme

Hi James

Yes, it is quite conceivable Shelley briefly left the steps to cross the street and speak with Calvery, although I don't believe this was his reason for crossing the street, and then returned to the steps and re-entered the building. However, considering how long it may have taken Calvery to return from down below, and how long she remained at the "corner of the park", this by no means is any kind of proof Shelley left the steps immediately after the shots; although his description of running across the street does infer he left immediately.

However, the discussion is not simply whether Lovelady left the steps or not, it is whether or not he and Shelley went down the Elm St. extension to the rail yards and, when 25 paces down the extension, looked back to see Baker and Truly climbing the front steps of the TSBD.

Robert,

https://spideroak.com/browse/share/JFKFILES/JFKVIDEOS

password: assassination

File Name: Steps-05

Down the steps they go.

About 4 seconds worth, unfortunately, it pans past them at that point.

chris

Interesting gif Chris. Part of a reenactment?

None of this has merit to the fact that Lovelady and Shelly left the steps almost immediately after the shots were fired, that is the issue, whether they went for a ping pong tournament in the rail road yard with the DPD is of no interest to me.

It is about eliminating who was left on those steps nothing more, nothing less.

Prayer Man Bob.........everything else is merely a diversion.

Yes, PM is quite important, but it is also important to clearly follow the trail of bread crumbs the conspirators (then and now) have laid down for us. This case is full of false leads designed to distract the attention of researchers away from uncovering what really happened.

Shelley and Lovelady walking down to the rail yards is one of these fabrications, and was invented to accomplish two things. The first was to discredit the testimony of Victoria Adams, who ran down the stairs in the first minute of the assassination and saw neither Oswald, Baker and Truly or the 2nd floor lunch room encounter. By delaying Shelley's and Lovelady's entrance into the rear of the building by 5-10 minutes, and by falsifying Adams' testimony to say she ran into Shelley and Lovelady near the rear stairs, before she went outside, established she was just a muddled young girl in 3" heels who could not possibly have made it downstairs before Truly and Baker had climbed the stairs.

The second reason to place Lovelady and Shelley walking down the extension is to establish that Baker went into the TSBD within 25 seconds of the last shot, and was able to make it to the 2nd floor lunch room in the time allotted by the WC.

While you may think PM is the only important thing here, it must be understood that getting Baker to the 2nd floor lunch room is equally important, and if the fabrications the WC came up with to put Baker there can be destroyed, we then cannot put Oswald in the 2nd floor lunch room immediately after the shooting.

If it can be proven Oswald was not in the 2nd floor lunch room immediately after the shooting, it then becomes possible for him to be anywhere, such as the top step of the entrance to the TSBD.

Robert,

From what I can see from your post 18 you agree with Bart that Bill Shelly did leave the steps but that Lovelady remained on the steps. You argue that Shelly later returned and entered the building. So, as I see it, you accept that Shelly did leave the steps and cannot be counted as one of the individuals on the steps.

It appears to me you are halfway to agreeing. The discussion now is whether we can establish whether Lovelady remained on the steps or whether he also left the steps.

James

Hi James

Yes, it is quite conceivable Shelley briefly left the steps to cross the street and speak with Calvery, although I don't believe this was his reason for crossing the street, and then returned to the steps and re-entered the building. However, considering how long it may have taken Calvery to return from down below, and how long she remained at the "corner of the park", this by no means is any kind of proof Shelley left the steps immediately after the shots; although his description of running across the street does infer he left immediately.

However, the discussion is not simply whether Lovelady left the steps or not, it is whether or not he and Shelley went down the Elm St. extension to the rail yards and, when 25 paces down the extension, looked back to see Baker and Truly climbing the front steps of the TSBD.

Who is the person you are referring to, who identified Gloria Calvery?

Gloria Calvery at her wedding on July 19, 1963, age twenty.

Gloria Calvery, identified by unknown persons near Stemmons Freeway sign following assassination of JFK on 22/11/63. Clearly, if this is Gloria Calvery, she cannot be the woman seen running in Darnell, as there is simply not enough time to get from this position to where the running woman is seen almost on Baker's heels.

Comments?

Not to mention the obvious clothing differences between this "Gloria Calvery" and the Couch / Darnell Running Woman.

--Tommy

Hi Thomas

That too.

What I would like to know is, how was the woman seen with Reed (Reid?) and Hicks first identified as Gloria Calvery, and by whom?

You did, Barto but, like most others, you completely ignore the timing required to make Bill Shelley's first day statement work with being able to see Shelley and Lovelady walking down the Elm St. extension toward the rail yards.

First off, neither Bill Shelley's or Billy Lovelady's first day statements, given within hours of the assassination on Nov. 22, 1963 say a single thing about either one of them walking to the rail yards. Bill Shelley claims, in this statement, to run across the Elm St. extension to the "corner of the park" (same thing as the "little concrete island" FYI) where he met Gloria Calvery crying, and learned of the President being shot. BUT, he then states he went inside the building and phoned his wife! Lovelady says nothing of leaving the steps at all, and that after it was all over, he went inside the TSBD and took some cops upstairs.

The importance of these 1st day statements, given within mere hours of the assassination, is twofold.

First, the event will never be fresher in their memories, and faulty or false recall is at a minimum

Second, I do not believe the coverup, an event wholly removed from the assassination, had actually taken shape that early, and if Shelley and Lovelady were going to tell lies (which they did next year) it would happen much later, once the people directing the coverup knew what they wanted L & S to say.

Something else to think about. If Shelley's 1st day statement was an untrue fabrication, what strategic value would there be in stating he ran across the Elm St. extension to speak to Gloria Calvery?

Barto

1. Please show us, on a map of Dealey Plaza, where the "corner of the park" is, where Bill Shelley claimed, in his first day statement, to run across the street to and where he met Gloria Calvery crying. While you're at it, show us where the "little concrete island" is, and how it differs from the corner of the park.

2. Do you believe the woman shown below is Gloria Calvery?

3. Do you believe Bill Shelley spoke with Gloria Calvery, at the "corner of the park", before he and Billy Lovelady walked down the Elm St. extension to the rail yards?

Thomas

If you're in California, I believe we are in the same time zone. As we both seem to be on here at all hours, are you a bit of an insomniac like me?

I

Of course, and I will show you in a few hours why that is the case.

On this forum?

--Tommy

I certainly hope so.

Gloria Calvery at her wedding on July 19, 1963, age twenty.

Gloria Calvery, identified by unknown persons near Stemmons Freeway sign following assassination of JFK on 22/11/63. Clearly, if this is Gloria Calvery, she cannot be the woman seen running in Darnell, as there is simply not enough time to get from this position to where the running woman is seen almost on Baker's heels.

Comments?

Be careful, Barto. You won't be able to delete my arguments over here, just because you can't answer them.

This I gotta see.

LOL I'm sure whatever enhancements are made will be fuel for another month long debate here.

Hi Thomas

I was hoping one of these talented people would be following this thread, and perhaps have taken enough interest in this matter to have begun analyzing what appears to be Shelley and Lovelady walking down the Elm St. extension, plus what appears to be Lovelady on the steps bending over to speak to someone.

However, I will give it until the New Year and, if no one volunteers by then, I will, as you say, "politely" request their assistance in this matter.

Lee Farley, telling it like it is (or was) about Shelley and Lovelady:

http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13152069-billy-lovelady-location

I'm also starting to believe that Lovelady and Shelly didn't leave the building.

And once again I read in Lovelady's statement what I've read and heard before, that there was a shot, a short pause, followed by two shots in quick succession. The two shots in quick succession couldn't have been fired by the same gun. (But then, this belongs on another thread.)

A quick comment or two about Lovelady's handwritten same-day affidavit. http://www.reopenken...velady-location

It's interesting to note that he went to the trouble to write in his affidavit that his lunch period was from 12 noon to 12:45.

Even though it was probably true (I haven't taken the time to verify it), I don't understand why he felt it necessary to include that information in his affidavit.

Did Lovelady expect the investigators to believe that he and Shelley had strictly observed their 45-minute lunch period on that exceptional day, i.e., that the moment "when it was over" just happened to coincide with the official end of their lunch period?

What exactly was "all over" when they "returned to work"?

Since we all know that the assassination occurred around 12:31, if Lovelady and Shelley really did go back to work at 12:45, what had they been doing during the previous 14 minutes or so?

Of Truly's other employees, who else actually went back to work at 12:45 besides Lovelady and Shelley? Anyone at all?

What time did Lovelady and Shelley actually go back into the TSBD?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps more importantly, Lovelady originally wrote, "After it was over we went back into the building and went back to work."

Edit: Sandy, if you read the sentence above you will realize that your recent interpretation of what Lovelady meant by the phrase "went back into the building" is incorrect. For the simple reason that if he had meant what you think he did by that phrase, then he wouldn't have written as long of a sentence as he actually did write, i.e., he would simply have written "After it was over we went back into the building." In the sentence he did write, he is telling us two things: They went back to work after they had gone back into the building (as opposed, I suppose, to their immediately going back to work on some (admittedly silly) project outside the building.) The only reason the distinction I'm making is important is because Lovelady not only radically changed the meaning of the sentence by crossing out some of its words and adding some different ones in their place, but also by replacing the unwritten-but-implicit pronoun "we" in the middle of the original sentence with the written pronoun "I" in the final version. (see below)

Then for some strange reason he put a hard-to-see, elevated but not inserted "I" above the word "and", crossed out "went back to work" and inserted in its place, "took some police officers up to search the building."

http://www.reopenken...velady-location

It's obvious to me that his final, edited sentence reads, "After it was over we went back into the building and I took some police officers up to search the building."

There's a huge difference between the two sentences.

It raises some important questions. For example, what exactly was Shelly doing while Lovelady "took some police officers up to search the building"? Working? Guarding one of the rear elevators (as he was allegedly ordered to do by somebody) before he, in turn, alegedly and admittedly assigned that job to the mysterious Jack Dougherty and allegedly went on upstairs, himself?

My intuition tells me that Lovelady was telling the truth in his edited, final sentence, the one that reads, "After it was over we went back into the building and I took some police officers upstairs to search the building."

Which leads me to believe that it was Lovelady who was "captured" upstairs on the 6th floor (while probably standing on a pallet) in Tom Alyea's film:

Note: That's Captain Fritz with his back turned toward the camera, wearing stetson hat and glasses.

What time did Fritz get to the TSBD? Anybody know the detective Frits is speaking with?

--Tommy

bumped because Sandy obviously hadn't read this edited version when he responded to the pre-edited original

Bumped for Sandy

Thomas

Are you beginning to believe now that Lee Farley and I are correct, and that it is highly unlikely that Lovelady and Shelley left the steps of the TSBD and walked down to the rail yards after the assassination?

Thomas Graves said:

"It's interesting to note that he went to the trouble to write in his affidavit that his lunch period was from 12 noon to 12:45.

Even though it was probably true (I haven't taken the time to verify it), I don't understand why he felt it necessary to include that information in his affidavit."

If you look again at Lovelady's statement, just before he states what time his lunch period was, is this sentence:

"I did not see anyone around the building that was not supposed to be there."

It's quite simple, Thomas. Billy Lovelady told the officer taking his statement that he saw no one around the building that didn't belong there. Perhaps he was a bit nervous, having had run-ins with the Law before, and stated the time of his lunch break to show he was on lunch break, and nowhere near the 6th floor, or anywhere else something might have been going on at the time of the assassination, just in case there actually were people in the building that didn't belong there, and someone in the DPD thought he was covering for them.

This was the DPD he was dealing with, and they were not above simply accusing and arresting everyone first, and sorting things out later. I don't blame Lovelady for being nervous, and attempting to distance himself from the 6th floor.

Lee Farley, telling it like it is (or was) about Shelley and Lovelady:

http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13152069-billy-lovelady-location

Thanks, Greg, just posted it.

And you call me paranoid.

Looking at this photo, I don't think he is even 5'5". Just my opinion, so don't start ranting, Thomas.

[Detective C. W. Brown circled]

[...]

He looks quite short in these photos.

Dear Robert,

How short does he look to you? Take a wild guess. You know, give or take a couple of inches.

All I can say from the top of my head is that we know that Detective Brown was short, Bonnie Ray Williams was 6' 2", and it's obvious Shelly is not standing straight up in this photo because he's either in the act of starting to get into the police car (he ended up getting in on the other side), or helping the policeman open the door for Arce and Williams..

I would guess that Shelley was at about 5' 10".

Say! If Shelley was in the military, why don't you try to find his records?

(After all, you're the one who is desperately trying to find out how tall he was. Probably so you can "prove" that that couldn't possibly be Shelley walking down the Elm Street Extension with "Shorty" Lovelady in Couch / Darnell, right? Or do you think you may have spotted him conversing with Gloria Calvery over on the "island"? -- That would be wonderful!)

Why don't you contact some of his relatives? Or some of his old co-workers? Or some of the people he used to compete against in dog shows?

Maybe you can smother 'em with the world famous "Robert Prudhomme Charm" !

Or do you think it doesn't matter now because you've already somehow "proved" that he was "quite short"? Haven't you.

LOL

--Tommy

Why do you sound like one of the LN's that frequent forums such as the JFK Assassination Forum when you get abusive, Thomas?

Ian,

There isn't much that can be done with the extant images. If we could access original films and get a high resolution scan some information could be gained. but playing with what we have, is just that, playing. We can enhance gray values, but it will NOT add any information of value. There just isn't enough digital information in the images.

IMO Mr. LeDoux's work has more credibility than Duncan's for the following simple reason:

He hasn't heavily manipulated the PM images as Duncan has.

Duncan's images have little to do with the extant original. They have been altered. Contrast has been heavily increased. Areas look to have been rather crudely dodged and burned. There is no way for any viewer to know how much, unless Duncan wants to provide image metadata/exif data for us so we can determine what he did, which I doubt will be volunteered.

I don't post here often. I've looked at Duncan's images as one of his, um, fans, has posted them and made outrageous claims about what can be seen at another forum.

Manipulated images are just that. Manipulated. No valuable conclusions can be drawn from Duncan's "work".

As Mr. MacRae will tell you, Michael, "The ends justify the means."

Sad isn't it? Just checked back in today. Has Duncan volunteered the exif/metadata?

No, actual data is in short supply in MacRae's arsenal. Innuendo and insult are his forte.

Hi Greg

One interesting anomaly involving the x-rays of JFK is the x-ray of his chest. In this x-ray, reportedly, was a good deal of grainy material. It was pointed out by the authorities that, while it appeared to be minute bullet particles, it was only "dirt" that had somehow found its way onto the x-ray plate, and it was of no concern.

I'm sure, by now, you are familiar with my notion that a frangible bullet entered the top of JFK's right lung and, as it travelled through the lung material, broke up into the powdered metal it was made from. I am interested to hear what Dr. Chesser has to say about the "dirt" on this x-ray, which, I believe, was only seen on the chest x-ray (and possibly a neck x-ray).

Bill Shelley circled

Bill Shelley on right, behind cop

Bill Shelley in uniform?

He looks quite short in these photos.

5'8", actually.