Robert Mady

Robert, I am interested to know why you think LOVELADY and SHELLEY lied. Absolutely agree there is no way to know exactly when the TSBD was sealed, it was not within 2-1/2 - 3 minutes as BARNETT claimed, this guy is full of inconsistencies, he also claimed to be in the rail yards and watched police search, but how did the police beat him to the rail yards, he may have been the first to arrive, did he stand there until other police arrived and started searching...this could have been many minutes who knows, BARNETTS testimony can't be trusted. You seem to be putting all the weight on CALVERY statements. The visual proof of BAKER and the timing to enter the TSBD, the fact that two people are walking down the Elm Street extension and are precisely at the locations LOVELADY and SHELLEY claimed to be when BAKER was seen by them and that PO BARNETT can be seen running in front of them, all of this evidence you are ignoring because of the intrigue of the CALVERY statements when logic dictates the CALVERY information can't be correct. Robert, if two other people are walking down Elm Street extension at precisly the moment when LOVELADY and SHELLEY testified to be doing this would be a miraculous coincidence or lets just say impossible. It is undoubtedly LOVELADY and SHELLEY walking down the street as PO BAKER runs into the TSBD and PO BARNETT runs to the rail yards as seen in the Couch film.

can anyone affirm that this is the complete Hughes film, that it has not been spliced, that the scenes are still in order of filming?

Robert P., I have no doubt that LOVELADY and SHELLEY left the steps moments following the gunshots and are seen walking down the Elm Street extension in the Couch film as PO BAKER runs to the front door and PO BARNETT runs to the rail yards. I also have no doubt SHELLEY and LOVELADY went as far as the end of the building and upon seeing PO BARNETT running in front of them to the rail yards with his gun drawn scared LOVELADY and SHELLEY that this was a serious situation, so they entered into the TSBD thru the garage. There they encountered ADAMS and STYLES leaving the building to go to the rail yards (STYLES and ADAMS most likely also ran into BARNETT who turned them away from the rail yards and back to the TSBD), I believe LOVELADY stayed on the first floor for 30 minutes then escorted police to the sixth floor. LOVELADY could not have exited the building after it was sealed, at least until after 3:00 when they allowed employees to leave. The scenario fits together absolutely corroborating the timing of the actions for PO BAKER, TRULY, PO BARNETT, SHELLEY, LOVELADY, STYLES and ADAMS. ADAMS and STYLES went out the north dock area around the building, encountered BARNETT at the rail yards and was turned back to the building, ADAMS and STYLES reentered the building thru the front door. So BARNETT was still in the rail yards, this could have been 5 -10 or more minutes following the gunshots. Interesting that BARNETT was taking the time to turn people back from entering the rail yards instead of searching for the gunmen...hummm.... The information provided was to show number 1, that BARNETT and SMITH shortly after the gunfire sealed the front door, number 2, employees that delayed returning to the building were prohibited from reentering, this could have been 5 or 15 or more minutes, there is no way to determine the exact timing of when BARNETT was finally stationed by the front door. number 3, that once BARNETT and SMITH took up position, no one got in or out without expressed permission from a superior, I find it doubtful that LOVELADY could have exited or reentered the building for any reason once BARNETT and SMITH were protecting the front door, this is the point the supporters of the Martin and Hughes creations need to realistically address, how did LOVELADY get to the steps and back into the TSBD whether it was 5 minutes or 50 minutes why would LOVELADY have been allowed egress and access. Remember we see BARNETT run to the rail yards, why he returned to the front of the TSBD would be the question to have answered. I do understand the CALVERY conflict in SHELLEY and LOVELADY testimony does not fit, I don't understand why this was interjected if it is true or imagined or if the timing of the conversation is off, or if it may have happened later inside the TSBD. I think you are overthinking an anomaly rather than piecing together significant portions of corroborated testimony supported by photographs and film. Just a thought: The CALVERY conversation testimony from SHELLEY and LOVELADY if taken as truth, would mean that they delayed and went to the rail yards 3 or 4 minutes after the gunshots, which now changes the timing of encountering ADAMS and STYLES, in other words this creates doubt that ADAMS and STYLES were on the stairs as quickly as they claimed and clears the way for OSWALD to have run the stairs unhindered. CALVERY could be a deception thrown in to cause confusion and create doubt and nothing more.

Thomas, lets just call it a day, I don't really want to banter with you nor do I appreciate you comments, my questions were meant to be straight forward, your unwillingness to address them indicates you believe the films to be real in a vacuum, without supporting foundation, you just believe the films are real, so be it. I won't argue against a belief, the discussion would prove to be a foolish waste of time.

Thomas, starting in post #168 I began to lay out evidence showing that BARNETT and SMITH set up guarding the entrance of the TSBD and that once they were in place, they did not allow anyone to enter or leave without expressed consent from a superior. I provided adequate number of witnesses that were prohibited from entering the TSBD within minutes of the assassination as proof that BARNETT prohibited employees from entering. I could have posted many witnesses that claimed they were not allowed to leave until after 3:00. I asked the questions that must be addressed 1) Exactly when was the Martin and Hughes films created? 2) How could LOVELADY leave the TSBD to go on a smoke break or was he prohibited from entering? 3) Why are the Martin and Hughes films not corroborated by testimony provided by SHELLEY or LOVELADY in any fashion?

Thomas, I tried to message you this, but your box is full or your not taking messages, so I will make this public. Thomas, I don't mind you posting, but I would really appreciate if you kept the derogatory comments to yourself. You don't need to agree with anything I post, but know that what I post I believe to be true. If this upsets you, you might be better off not to read my posts. Go to some other threads which merely repeat the same non-sense that has been regurgitated for 51 years and discover nothing new. Also note you were quick to form a poll against the possibility the Martin and Hughes may be created films, I countered with a page of supporting evidence including some crucial questions that need to be addressed but you have not answered one question I posed about LOVELADY in Martin and Hughes films. Why not get serious and address this and lets have a good discussion. I am not your enemy Best Wishes Bob Mady

Ray Thank you for posting. Bob

Lovelady' shirt was not light coloured stripes. It was red and white stripes. If the sun bleached out the red stripes of Lovelady then it should have bleached out the red shirt of doorman. The man you say is Lovelady, is wearing a white shirt with rolled up sleeves. Not a short sleeve shirt. Ray here is FBI photograph, untouched by me. The two photographs on the right could have been taken with filters which intensifies the red and also deepens shadows in the face in a manner that best suited the look of DOORMAN, the photo on the left may not have used filters so the red is subdued. The filters would also promote red in the shirt which would make it much darker and closer to the appearance of DOORMANS shirt. The shirt may have been more properly termed pink and white striped shirt when viewed without filters. You are getting hung up on the description of the shirt, not the fact that the shirt can appear to be lightly striped and does appear washed out even in the FBI photograph on the left. The photograph on the left is likely the best representation we have of the true contrast of the stripes on the shirt. Ray if you look at black and white films, red appears black. The photograph on the left could not have been taken if the stripes were truly red, the shirt would have appeared to have black stripes, possibly as dark as the pants. I can see why you suggest the man has his sleeves rolled up and not short sleeved. I disagree.

Sorry Ray, I wasn't being evasive, I just assumed everyone knew who the Man shielding Eyes was, it is the man that has both hands to his head shielding his eyes, he is at the end of the line that I drew, the line is touching his elbow. The one in the short sleeved shirt. No, it is not strange that DOORMANS shirt is not washed out in the sunlight, DOORMAN was wearing a dark reddish colored shirt, how could it be washed out by the sunlight? Sunlight will wash out lighter colors. You can see in the FBI photo that the dark pants stay dark, retain contrast, the light colored vertically striped shirt blends into one color.

Ray here is an unaltered FBI photograph. Can you readily descern stripes? How about now?

Ray, here is FBI photo of LOVELADY, exposure slightly altered. It appears that it might explain why the stripes are not visible, we are told the stripes are red and white, but the red stripe appears that it may have been very light colored or not an intense red. The color faded in sunlight.

Ray, I agree, it is evident the stripes cannot be readily discerned in Altgens #6 or Couch film. Although there is no problem in discerning the short sleeved shirt worn by LOVELADY in Altgens #6 or Couch film. The fact that SHELLEY and LOVELADY are filmed walking down the Elm Street extension and LOVELADY can be discerned in a short sleeved shirt is substantial evidence that links LOVELADY to have been on the steps, shielding eyes. Plus the fact that Man Shielding Eyes is absent from the steps when SHELLEY and LOVELADY are walking down the extension. The fact is short sleeved shirts are an anomaly, long sleeved shirts or coats and jackets are predominant dress.

The government found 'experts' that provided a high probability that DOORMAN was LOVELADY, they also found 'experts' to proclaim the SBT was plausible and 'experts' that proclaimed the 'pristine bullet' was plausible and 'experts' that proclaimed an incorrectly mounted and uncorrectable misaligned scope on the MC was advantageous to use, another 'expert' proclaiming the jet effect propelled KENNEDY to the rear and yet another 'expert' proclaiming it was a muscle spasm. The right 'experts' seems to be a key. It was the government that tried to prove a lone nut murdered our President, it was the government that produced false evidence, it was the government that lied, exactly when did the government decide to stop lying about the assassination of President KENNEDY and begin to reveal the truth?

Ray, the conclusion I posted are mine alone, although I am aware that Cinque has done a lot of work on the similarities of the shirts, it is apparent by looking at the shirt on DOORMAN and the proposed plaid shirt on LOVELADY, they do not match in the way the shirt is cut or hangs, they are not the same. I don't need someone to tell me that. Also of significance, the FBI photographs of LOVELADY they arranged the shirt to hang open to best simulate the shirt on DOORMAN, why would they have done this Ray? Do you also notice the angle of the camera and LOVELADY face best simulate DOORMAN, also the lighting is such that it brings shadows to LOVELADYS face to best simulate the face of DOORMAN. A signature trim of the hairline and you have DOORMAN. The shirt seen on DOORMAN, the cut and hang matches OSWALDs shirt. Although I appreciate what Cinque has advanced for truth and prefer to call him my friend I think it is slanderous that you would use his name like it represents a cult. Although I agree with Cinque concerning the shirt, the evidence on the shirts is not what convinced me DOORMAN was not LOVELADY, it was LOVELADY FBI report and photographs, the acceptance of the report by the FBI and HOOVER, unquestioned acceptance by the WC and the news media combined with the utter failure of the WC to have FRAZIER and LOVELADY definitively identify LOVELADY in Altgens #6.

The government did not provide conclusive evidence or proofs that LOVELADY was DOORMAN when it was absolutely essential to do so. As posted the evidence the government collected told a different story and that was LOVELADY could not possibly have been DOORMAN. Based on evidence collected by government it is utterly impossible that LOVELADY was DOORMAN. The news media ignored this elephant in the room since the FBI evidence on the shirt release in 1964, but a "conspiracy advocate" in 1967 set out to prove the case the government was unable to do and ever since conspiracy advocates have been in lock-step arguing in favor of the governments case, ignoring government evidence to sustain their positions. And what Josiah has offered you is nothing but hearsay and unsworn testimony. You can hear LOVELADY telling the HSCA investigator that he would not describe the shirt he wore that day, why would he have described it to Thompson or Jackson or Groden? The fact is the shirt is a key issue, the news media had to immediately comprehend the shirts did not match, that LOVELADY could not have been DOORMAN, what was the reaction, they printed LOVELADY FBI photos and proclaimed the shirts matched, end of story. This shows the amount of control the conspirators had over the news, any agent of the media could have clarified this issue, they didn't and they couldn't. Josiah Thompson, proclaimed LOVELADY was just misunderstood, the FBI agents that wrote the report that accompanied the shirt photographs must have been insane to write a report that destroyed the governments theory of LOVELADY was DOORMAN, they should have been fired on the spot or exiled or re-interviewed LOVELADY, HOOVER must have been more than surprised that the shirts didn't match, the WC apparently couldn't resolve the discrepancy so they never addressed LOVELADY concerning the conflict and the media said hey look sheeple it is the same shirt, really. But Josiah set the record straight where the government was unable to do so. You got to be kidding believing Josiah non-sense. You can bow down at the feet of Pundit Thompson, I choose to ignore his proclamations and go where the evidence dictates. LOVELADY is not DOORMAN, he wore a red and white vertical striped short sleeved shirt during the assassination, he can be seen on the steps shielding his eyes, he can be seen walking down the street with SHELLEY, significant evidence dictates that this is the most true.

Ray, what is there that casts doubts on the fact that LOVELADY claimed to the FBI during an official interview that he wore the red and white vertical striped shirt and was by intention documented wearing the shirt? The FBI accepted this evidence as fact, the WC accepted this evidence unquestioned, the news media proclaimed this evidence was authentic. The WC failed to definitively identify LOVELADYS location on the steps in Altgens #6. If the WC could not positively identify LOVELADY the question would have to be why not, why could they not identify him? Is it not a little bit obvious, that LOVELADY can not be DOORMAN, all of the government evidence precludes this as a possibility. The government is the entity that made this case, it could not prove otherwise. And why are the WC/R believers and the conspiracy believers so intent on ignoring substantial evidence in favor of hearsay to maintain an untenable position that LOVELADY is DOORMAN, because it ends the debate. It needs to end now, it has gone on far too long. It does not matter at all what LOVELADY was willing to say off the record or that a newspaper can print anything it wants, truth or lies. HSCA 'can you describe the shirt you wore?' LOVELADY "NO!" Don't you get it?

Ray, I am not sure what you are saying about the arrow in CE-369 The arrow on the left side of the photograph was placed there by FRAZIER, when he was requested to make an arrow toward LOVELADY. My point is this is exactly what he did, he also accomplished this by placing the arrow as close to doorman as possible so that we might believe that the arrow was indicating DOORMAN was LOVELADY when in reality the arrow is toward Man Shielding Eyes. I tried to illustrate in the photo by drawing a line down the shaft of the arrow in the direction the arrow was pointed, you can see it points to the heart of Men Shielding Eyes, while it merely skims the top of DOORMANS head. This is deception. LOVELADY placed his arrow in the dark area, we do not know where it was placed, based on all of the evidence it must be obvious it is not pointing toward DOORMAN otherwise the WC would have made this clear for all to see.

Please note there were three DP officers stationed on the corners of Elm and Houston, BARNETT and SMITH and SMITH. We have photographs of one SMITH running towards the stair way on the grassy knoll, J.D. SMITH running toward where the HESTERS were located in the monument area, that leaves BARNETT, the DP officer in the COUCH film can only be BARNETT. What is interesting is that the fact that this is a DP officer in the Couch film means it has to be BARNETT, which means he lied in testimony, in that he did not run north on Houston to the back of the TSBD because he thought shots came from the roof, he ran down Elm street extension because he thought shots came from the monument area, same as Officers SMITH and SMITH that were stationed on the same corner. This also reinforces, no shots originated from the TSBD. BARNETT had been stationed almost directly under the SN window. BARNETT should be considered to be an unreliable witness.

Evidence was posted claiming BARNETT and SMITH were standing guard at the front door within minutes of the gunfire and did not allow people to enter or leave without authorization from a lieutenant. Provided were the names of eight employees that worked in the TSBD building that were prohibited from entering the building within minutes of the shooting. Could a defender of LOVELADY on the steps please advance a theory as to exactly when the Martin and Hughes films were taken, how and why LOVELADY was allowed to leave the TSBD for a smoke break or reenter after the smoke break? How can these films fit into the time line outlined in LOVELADYS testimony that claimed he left the steps following the shooting to walk down to the rail yards and saw BAKER and TRULY enter the TSBD, this would have been within seconds of the last shot, LOVELADY got to the rail yards and then immediately returned the TSBD entering through the garage and he saw VICKY ADAMS on the first floor (ADAMS claimed she had run down the stairs from the fourth floor and was going to the rail yards), he claimed he stayed on the first floor for 30 minutes then escorted police to sixth floor of the TSBD?

For those of you who are unfamiliar with LOVELADYS claims of what he wore on 11/22/1963 here is the FBI report that accompanied the photographs already posted The revisionist insist that LOVELADY was confused and the FBI was incompetent. They insist LOVELADY wore plaid the day of the assassination dispite what LOVELADY claimed officially to the FBI agents on 02/29/1964, what the FBI and the WC accepted as true and the media proclaimed as fact, that the shirt seen in the FBI photographs matched the attire of DOORMAN. Despite LOVELADYS flat refusal to describe his shirt to the HSCA investigator in 1977, NO! is what LOVELADY replied.

Robert P. whatever.

Robert, CONNALLY is doing more than leaning forward. Well anyway, enough said. HUMES altered the head wounds, why would creating the back wound be a problem? How else were they going to provide an explanation for the existence of the 'pristine bullet' ?

Brad, 51 years of working on the problem has resulted in no workable solutions as to how or when CONNALLY is wounded, but researchers are tenacious, if they failed for 51 years, they are willing to rework the same problem again and again and again looking for a shred of truth to create a workable solution. Problem has always been garbage in garbage out. I already provided the solution as to how and when CONNALLY was wounded. Robert P. there is not a shred of credible evidence for any shots coming from the TSBD no evidence for any shots from the Western windows of the TSBD. Since civilian witnesses claimed the three rifle shots came from the monument area, why not determine the potential results of the three shots that came from the monument area? Do further analysis on how CONNALLY could have positioned himself to have been wounded from the side, from the monument area. You have discounted the significance of CONNALLYS posture too prematurely. You will find that his posture is the solution to how he was wounded from the side. When you determine how his wounds lined up, the solution is obvious. Look at the Zapruder film after the fatal head shot and know CONNALLY was not only facing forward, he was hunched down with his right arm tucked into his body, twisting his right side to the left. Which moves the point of entry forward and down. The bullet from the side nearly missed CONNALLYS body. JFK's back wound was post added by HUMES punching a hole into KENNEDYS back as the explanation for the 'pristine bullet' which was planted at the hospital to provide a forensic match to the murder weapon.

Ray, thank you for making the post more complete. Every word can be of significance. FRAZIER arrow pointing directly toward Man Shielding Eyes, over DOORMANs head. This is deception. Smoke and mirrors, more than sufficient to have fooled the children. LOVELADYS arrow indicating his location cannot be discerned in any manner. Blatant deception.