Robert Mady

James, I am not sure what you are talking about, Hughes does film the entrance of the TSBD, but it is from a long distance away, are you saying you can identify LOVELADY in Hughes film?

"It shows Lovelady outside the front entrance of the TSBD and is purported to be "just after the assassination". Robert see post #355 it might help explain There is no time stamp when this LOVELADY photograph (actually film) was taken, there were no photographers that rushed to the TSBD to take any photographs, they all rushed to the monument area took some photographs then left DP in the motorcade. The blind defenders of LOVELADY is DOORMAN will use any material and pretend as if it were real or substantial, as far as we can determine the film of LOVELADY on the steps and in the police station were staged at a later time to give traction to the idea that maybe LOVELADY was not wearing a 'red and white vertical stripped' short sleeved shirt on 11/22/1963. Any one purporting the said photograph or film to have been taken on 11/22/1963 needs to provide a shred of evidence in support of this. In short just call BS.

For the casual reader here is Officer BAKERS original statement where he claims he encountered OSWALD in the lunchroom drinking a coke, you can see that for whatever reason BAKER then crosses it out. This crossed out claim corroborates OSWALDS claim to have gone to the lunchroom and purchased a coke then encountered BAKER. Picking apart the WC and the fiction they created is easy.

David, I agree with you, I believe Fritzs notes are the only remnant of evidence we can trust concerning what OSWALD told the interrogators. I believe OSWALD told fritz that he went home and only changes his 'britches' That OSWALD went out on the steps to eat his lunch (to see the President along with everyone else) That OSWALD then went to the 2nd floor to purchase a coke, where he encountered BAKER (which BAKER verified in a statement he made...BAKER then crossed out OSWALD was drinking a coke for some reason....me thinks it made it appear that OSWALD may not have just run into the lunch room, what do you think?) Again the devil is in the details OSWALD left the building via the front door. Which would have been an incredibly bold move for someone who supposedly had just appeared in a sixth floor window firing a weapon in front of 4-600 witnesses. And on the way out helped an agent locate a telephone in the TSBD, quite the gentleman.

Robert, the timing of SHELLEY and LOVELADY conversation with Gloria and leaving the steps is just not correct based on all of the other claims they made and photographic evidence posted. They were mistaken or persuaded to allow more time, because if they had a 3 minute conversation with Gloria, that means Adams and Styles were 3 minutes longer in starting their run down the steps which would have allowed the fictional OSWALD to have run down the steps ahead of Adams and Styles. There is a method to their fiction. The problem is with the details, the details of the lies seldom fit. The devil is in the details. There can be no doubt SHELLEY and LOVELADY left the steps within seconds of the last shot, wandered down the street, then reentered the dock area where they encountered Adams and Styles. LOVELADY did not return to the steps.

Robert although alteration of Altgens #6 is probably not impossible, is there any reason why they would alter it? I find the configuration of DOORMANs left shoulder to be odd also, but have not reconciled why it appears to be slimmer than it should be. I sort of believe that it could be the bending turning stance that OSWALD had that makes the shoulder line recede or not appear in photo. DOORMAN appears in the Wiegman film, why would they have to alter Altgens 6? Have you considered alterations of A6, what have they done and why?

Ray, I hope this graphic illustrates for you that there is no possibility that any part of DOORMAN could overlap LEWIS image in A6. Frame from Wiegman clip. The arm raised has to be from a bystander between LEWIS and the camera. It is not a part of DOORMAN.

Robert are you referring to Adams claiming to see SHELLEY and LOVELADY on the first floor, dock area if I remember correctly, after they ran down the steps and before they left the building to go to the rail yards? This also ties in that Adams and Styles were on the stairs just as they claimed to have done immediately following the last shot. More proof that no one else ran down the stairs from the sixth floor following the assassination.

Ray, this is what I love about trading information on the forum, I stand corrected, LEWIS is in a light colored shirt, it most likely can't be LEWIS arm. I still have no doubt even more so that it can't be DOORMAN because he is a long way to the rear of LEWIS and could not reach to cover any part of LEWISs body. It must be someone in the crowd between LEWIS and Altgens who had raised their arm.

Here is a random thought Pundit Mark Lane went to Dallas supposedly on a mission to interview witnesses in part or entirely with the objective to help prove OSWALD was innocent. Why did he not interview LOVELADY and just ask him if he was on the steps and to please show us using Altgens 6 exactly where he was located? IMO Lane produced a propaganda film to keep us guessing at the truth, nothing more. If Lane worked for the CIA in connection with Jones Town, he likely was working for the CIA while making his documentary in Dallas.

Ray, I will concede that there is one feature that needs an explanation and that is the hairline on DOORMAN. IT most certainly mimics what we know about LOVELADY more than OSWALD. How many photographs do we have of LOVELADY in 1963 or 1964? 3 3 photographs taken by the FBI photographer. All other photographers were purposely kept away from LOVELADY by the government, why is that? Here is my opinion. The image of DOORMAN was established when A6 was published, whether or not the photograph was altered prior to or after publication is in contention by some. The FBI or government had no choice but to make LOVELADY appear more similar to DOORMAN. Which they did in the photographs by 1) taking photographs at an angle 2) lighting and shading of LOVELADYS face 3) hair cut that simulated the odd appearance of hairline on DOORMAN. I believe they altered LOVELADY to appear more like DOORMAN. IF you read LOVELADYS statement he claims some people mistook him for OSWALD, I believe this is absurd fiction, if you look at the full frontal, LOVELADY is not similar to OSWALD at all. Comparing the full frontal to DOORMAN it in no way other than hairline is similar to DOORMAN whereas OSWALD is a very good match for DOORMAN.

Robert, did I properly address your questions?

Ray, why do you think the FBI attempted to mimic the shirt seen on DOORMAN with LOVELADY photographs?

From what I understand of Cinques work, I believe he pointed out the cut and lay of the shirts seen on DOORMAN and OSWALD are similar as well as some of the visible details being similar, I can see that this is true. The depth of shade is also similar. Conflicting with this is LOVELADY in his plaid shirt, it does not have the same cut or the same lay, they are definitely dissimilar. Plus LOVELADYS shirt is a plaid, and I don't believe the DOORMAN shirt is plaid, IMO

Ray, I appreciate your opinion on DOORMANS shirt being a plaid, although IMO it is not plaid, the image is too small to determine if there is a pattern. If DOORMAN is not OSWALD, who is he? Ray, what do you believe you colored in? That is most probably ROY LEWIS's arm and hand, it is not a part of DOORMAN. ROY LEWIS is many feet in front of DOORMAN, DOORMANS arm could not extend to space where LEWIS is located.

Sorry Ray, just got back on and was answering James inquiry, Yes Ray, I believe that the shirt that OSWALD was arrested in was most likely the same shirt as on DOORMAN. IF not the exact same shirt it has many similarities. The alternate point is LOVELADYS shirt is not a match for DOORMANS shirt. Plus I believe there is more than sufficient evidence already posted proving that LOVELADY is MAN SHIELDING EYES / man walking with SHELLEY and could in no way be a match for DOORMAN. May I ask what your point may be about the shirt?

Allow me reiterate: Hughes film shows PRAYER MAN on the steps, he steps forward and shields his eyes from the sun, he then steps back and takes his hand down. Altgens #6 shows, DOORMAN (OSWALD) and MAN SHIELDING EYES (LOVELADY) on the steps (Z-255) Wiegman film shows PRAYER MAN, DOORMAN and MAN SHIELDING EYES still on the steps Couch film shows PRAYER MAN still on the steps, DOORMAN and MAN SHIELDING EYES are absent from the steps Couch film shows BAKER run into the TSBD - LOVELADY claimed to see this from 25 or so steps down the street, remember BAKER claims to be on the second floor in less than 90 seconds. This gives timing of the clip. Couch film shows DP officer running down the street, also claimed to be seen by LOVELADY Couch film shows SHELLEY and LOVELADY walking down the street toward the rail yards, in the position to see both BAKER and DP officer. The Couch film combined with Wiegman film is absolute proof that SHELLEY and LOVELADY are the two individuals seen walking down the street within seconds following the assassination. If they talked to Gloria it was only for a few seconds. There could not have been any more time than this. Since PRAYER MAN is still on the steps in Couch film, he can not possibly be LOVELADY, because LOVELADY is seen walking down the street with SHELLEY while PRAYER MAN can still be seen on the steps. SHELLEY and LOVELADY immediately following the shots, walk to the rail yard, but are frightened when they see the DP officer running before them pulling his gun, SHELLEY and LOVELADY then duck into the dock of the TSBD and reenter the TSBD, LOVELADY does NOT return to the steps.

James, the Couch clip shows SHELLEY and LOVELADY walking toward the rail yards away from the steps. When they return to the TSBD they go into the dock doors on the West end of the building which can be seen in the image posted. You might benefit understanding if you read LOVELADY testimony on what he did and saw immediately following hearing the shots. I think you might be confused on which way you think he should be going and at what time and which clip is which. I would be glad to help you understand this tonight when I have access to my personal computer.

James the clip that Chris and then I posted was of the Hughes film. This shows the steps as the limo is turning the corner on Elm. In it you can only see PM. The comment to Chris was that PM could not possible be LOVELADY. How can I be so sure. 1) PM / DOORMAN / MAN SHIELDING EYES are on the steps in Wiegman clip which is taken probably when shot have just been fired or are still being fired according to Wiegman. 2) Next clip is Couch film that is just a few moments after the Wiegman film, and DOORMAN and MAN SHIELDING EYES are no longer on the steps, but PM is. 3) Couch clip shows SHELLEY and LOVELADY walking down the street, exactly as claimed, while BAKER and TRULY run into the TSBD and DP officer runs to the rail yards in front of them. To give you an idea Wiegman was in camera car #1, Couch was two cars behind in camera car #3, this is how much separation in distance the two cars were, the time difference is harder to determine but is it probably very short. Am I sure that this is absolutely correct; YES.

James, in A6 we see LOVELADY to our right of DOORMAN, he is Shielding his eyes. We can see him and DOORMAN in Wiegman clip still on the steps. A few moments later the Couch clip was made and Man Shielding Eyes and DOORMAN are absent from the steps. In Couch clip you can see SHELLEY and LOVELADY are walking towards the rail yards. Evidence that this is LOVELADY include Short sleeved, light colored shirt Claim he was walking with SHELLEY Claim he turned and saw BAKER and TRULY run into the TSBD Claim he saw a policeman running to the rail yard in front of them, this is what caused them to return to the TSBD by the back dock doors which can be seen on the building in the Couch film. There can be absolute certainty this picture posted is of SHELLEY and LOVELADY walking toward the rail yards, moments after the shots were fired.

Thomas and Chris, This is PM man, what he appears to do is to move forward or lean forward into the sunshine and as he does he is shielding his face from the sun with his hand, he then moves back and lowers his arm at the same time, it can appear that he is saluting the President as the limo is nearing but it is most likely interaction with the bright light. PM can not be LOVELADY because in the Couch clip, LOVELADY can be seen in his light colored short sleeved shirt walking with SHELLEY while PM can still be seen on the steps of the TSBD. Man Shielding Eyes is gone from the steps as is DOORMAN but PM is still present on steps in Couch clip as BAKER runs into the TSBD. LOVELADY claimed he was walking down the street with SHELLEY when he turned and saw TRULY and BAKER running into the TSBD as well as describing the policeman that can be seen running in front of SHELLEY and LOVELADY moving to the rail yards.

Ray, no I believe DOORMAN is wearing shirt that OSWALD had on when he was arrested.

Kathy, the clip is not authentic, there is no way to prove it is, yet it is offered up like it is sacred evidence, I call B.S. Groden provided no further proof that LOVELADY wore plaid on 11/22/1963 but his hack job has also become some sort of holy grail epiphany that somehow single handedly discredits official FBI reports and photographs accepted as evidence in truth by the US government and the news media. Researchers now might desire to argue about whether the agents, photographer, FBI, WC and the news media misunderstood what LOVELADY actually claimed or LOVELADY was confounded by the FBI agents and photographer about one of the most important pieces of evidence desired by the American Citizens that would help determine if LOVELADY or OSWALD was DOORMAN. I call BS Kathy, If anyone one on this forum has evidence to post that shows my facts or reasoning is off, I welcome it, this is how one grows. I certainly won't accept evidence that is not in truth. If I state my case strongly it is because I am that confident in the evidence that I am posting, if not I will say that also. The PM thread, from how much I read I could find nothing of interest. I have posted OSWALD on the steps with Robin Unger, he had nothing and in the end he got mad and deleted all of his posts after screaming you can't be serious!

Robert can I add some important information. Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building. Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with. Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley. Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far? Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes--- Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you see anything there? Mr. LOVELADY - No, sir; well, just people running. Mr. BALL - That's all? Mr. LOVELADY - And hollerin. Mr. BALL - How did you happen to go down there? Mr. LOVELADY - I don't know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, I guess--- Mr. BALL - They were running from that way or toward that way? Mr. LOVELADY - Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction. Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building? Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building. Mr. BALL - How many steps? Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25. Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks? Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half. Mr. BALL - Then what did you do? Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building. Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did. Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up? Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say. Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time. Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could. Mr. BALL - Had people started to run? Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps. Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk? Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk. Mr. BALL - A fast walk? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building? Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked. Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building? Mr. LOVELADY - Right. LOVELADY timing is impossible, there is no way he could have had any conversation with Gloria before leaving the steps, this conversation is misremembered and so is the timing. LOVELADY left the steps immediately with SHELLEY when he and SHELLEY were 15-25 steps away from the steps, LOVELADY saw BAKER run into the TSBD Also on the image posted is the officer that started running, if you watch the Couch film you may get the distinct impression that the cop was running and drawing his weapon, this is why LOVELADY and SHELLEY then went back into the TSBD, they realized this could be trouble. So when was LOVELADY back on the steps of the TSBD and why was he just lounging there getting his profile on film?

Just curious Forum How many clips are there available of OSWALD in the police station? All the clips I have seen are in crowded hallways and the one crowed midnight press conference room. Off hand I only remember midnight press conference, OSWALDS murder and maybe four other clips as OSWALD was being maneuvered thru the congested hallways. What are the chances that there was just one more clip and it was NOT in a hallway but of an quiet inner office, in it you could not really determine if the man was OSWALD or not because you could only see the back of this head, but low and behold the clip has LOVELADY prominently lounging in the frame displaying his plaid shirt. What are the chances of this being real? Why would you not immediately suspect that this could have been staged at a later date? Does it not seem totally out of character compared to all the other clips available on OSWALD in the police station? What are the chances that LOVELADY could have been captured in a single odd clip that supposedly included 'OSWALD', really you guys this much asleep you can't see potential that this was a farce? Is it standard police procedure to parade suspects in front of witnesses?