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Kenneth Drew

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  1. The card trap A classic trap was created some years ago; Four cards are laid out as below: The condition is now established (true): 'If a card has a vowel on one side, then it has an even number on the other side.' The problem is to decide which are the minimum cards that need to be turned over to prove that the conditional statement is true. How many and which card(s)? OR (these are the same challenges, just worded a little differently): Which card(s) must you turn over in order to test the truth of the proposition that if a card shows a vowel on one face, then its opposite face is an EVEN number? Discuss it among yourselves... The card trap A classic trap was used by Wason and Johnson-Laird (1972) to show how Four cards are laid out as below: E K 4 7 The card trap A classic trap was created some years ago; Four cards are laid out as below: 1The conditional statement is now given: 'If a card has one vowel on one side, then it has an even number on the other side.' 2The condition is now established (true): 'If a card has a vowel on one side, then it has an even number on the other side.' 3The question is to decide which are the minimum cards that need to be turned over to prove that the conditional statement is true. 4The problem is to decide which are the minimum cards that need to be turned over to prove that the conditional statement is true. How many and which card(s)? More than half of people questioned said E and 4. To affirm the antecedent, E is correct. E is a vowel and thus should have an even number on the other side. If there was an odd number on the other side, the statement would be false, so E must be turned over to check for this. But choosing 4 is affirming the consequent. Even though 4 is even, it can have a vowel or consonant on the other side and the statement is not falsified. Only 4% said E and 7. The 7 could deny the consequent and hence must be checked. If there was a vowel on the other side, the statement would be false. So what? Be careful about if-then statements, both in your own use and in those that others use. It does, of course also mean that you can make statements that are logically false and few people will challenge you. The card trap A classic trap was used by Wason and Johnson-Laird (1972) to show how Four cards are laid out as below: E K 4 7 The conditional statement is now given: 'If a card has one vowel on one side, then it has an even number on the other side.' The question is to decide which are the minimum cards that need to be turned over to prove that the conditional statement is true. More than half of people questioned said E and 4. To affirm the antecedent, E is correct. E is a vowel and thus should have an even number on the other side. If there was an odd number on the other side, the statement would be false, so E must be turned over to check for this. But choosing 4 is affirming the consequent. Even though 4 is even, it can have a vowel or consonant on the other side and the statement is not falsified. Only 4% said E and 7. The 7 could deny the consequent and hence must be checked. If there was a vowel on the other side, the statement would be false. So what? Be careful about if-then statements, both in your own use and in those that others use. It does, of course also mean that you can make statements that are logically false and few people will challenge you. Okay, I posted it the way you originally posted, then I posted the way you just posted it which is an exact copy from the original source. down under the 4 cards, there are alternating color lines. Line 2 in black is the way you published it in post 1 Line 1 in red is the way you just posted it in 100 Line 4 in black from post 1 line 3 in red from post 100 Now you can say they are 'exactly' the same thing. but clearly line 2 says that the condition is established true.......that if it's a vowel then back side is even whereas line 1 says it's conditional and to be determined. In one case if it is established as true then it is not still to be determined if it is true or not. End of discussion. Question was stated incorrectly to get the answer desired..
  2. I'm flat tired of defending myself to you, Ken. I was trying to have a little intellectual fun and stimulate some thinking, and you've taken all the fun out of this.And that's the way I've taken it. I have not intended to get you all bent out of shape just because of a game. I have tried to take it all as fun. I will be interested to see the 'official' answer because obviously i'm not gonna agree with it. Apparently IF and THEN, means something different to me than to the puzzle writer. I believe that it is likely that the problem is going to be that the meaning of IS is something orther than IS. Again ... you'll note that no one else had problems with the wording or design of the test. Only you. The other questions were legitimate concerns of clarity. Yours, not so much. You never once wondered who got it right, or how they did. You've failed to reply to my questions. Your test does not remotely resemble this exercise in logic (yours is a test of reading and comprehension). Start your own thread. I'll answer it later, but to answer it now would be to allow you to change direction from the solution to this - these - problems. You never once wondered who got it right, or how they did. LOL, you said I got it wrong. there have been two answers 1 and 2 and you said two got it right, so obviously the two that said 2 got it right. Doesn't that tell me? You've failed to reply to my questions. I believe I answered every one. This is/was the 'original' question/statement: From post 1: The condition is now established (true): 'If a card has a vowel on one side, then it has an even number on the other side.' Has now been changed to: in post 100: The condition, WHICH IS WHAT NEEDS TO BE PROVED TRUE OR FALSE, is now established that.. So I hope you can see that in post one you stated: that the condition is now established (true) and now in post 100 you are saying that "the condition, which is what needs to be proved true or false. So i guess that when you state that a condition which has been established to be true now becomes one that has to be proved to be true or false it's going to cause an entirely different answer. As I said at some point above, I think the way the question was asked (not by you, but the originator) is what caused the misunderstanding.
  3. The "K" could have a vowel on the other side. No it can't. Vowels have even numbers on the back side, not other letters. this is one of the errors that some people are making, and the point of the exercise: Vowels have even numbers on the back side, not other letters. the condition is simply this: if it's a vowel, then the other side is an even number. and nothing else. there is nothing that states, or implies, that: consonants cannot have an even number, or another consonant, or an odd number, or a naked - goat - on the other side. there is nothing that states, or implies, that: a person cannot turn over any card unless it shows X or until the "if" is satisfied. turning E over does one of two things: it proves the statement TRUE - SO FAR - if the other side is an EVEN #, --- OR --- it proves it false right away if there is NOT an EVEN number there. the mission is to prove the statement true or false with the least amount of turns with the given set of cards. so if you turn E and there's a 2, -> so far, the statement is true. if you turn K, then you have to ask yourself what is proven under the ensuing situation. if there's a 3, then what? if there's a 4, then what? if there's a Z, then what? if there's a nude goat, then what? so is it necessary to turn K? and so on and so forth... the condition is simply this: if it's a vowel, then the other side is an even number. and nothing else. Ok. there is nothing that states, or implies, that: Yes there is: the very first condition is If it's a vowel it has an even number on the back side. Remember this sentence from post 1: The condition is now established (true): 'If a card has a vowel on one side, then it has an even number on the other side.' I interpret that as if a card has a vowel on one side, then it has an even number on the other side.
  4. I'm flat tired of defending myself to you, Ken. I was trying to have a little intellectual fun and stimulate some thinking, and you've taken all the fun out of this. And that's the way I've taken it. I have not intended to get you all bent out of shape just because of a game. I have tried to take it all as fun. I will be interested to see the 'official' answer because obviously i'm not gonna agree with it. Apparently IF and THEN, means something different to me than to the puzzle writer. I believe that it is likely that the problem is going to be that the meaning of IS is something orther than IS.
  5. let me ask this simple question Glenn First let me make a general statement. There is one house on my street that has a yellow door. There are 4 houses on my street that have 3 bathrooms. All houses in my neighborhood that have a yellow door have 3 bathrooms. with that in place. you may visit all the houses in my neighborhood, if a house has a yellow door, you may enter that house to see if it is one that has 3 bathrooms. Now the question, how many houses can you enter in my neighborhood to see if it has 3 bathrooms?
  6. Mark, surely you are acquainted with DVP's famous statement: "I wish I had your total freedom, Ken. You can just make up stuff from pure nothingness all day long and try to pass off such tommyrot as an "open mind"." He has said many times that he is not free to speak the truth Seems as if he and the WC have some things in common.
  7. Steven, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. I'm considerably older, having been 23 years old at the time of JFK's murder. There are 3 'world altering' events in my lifetime that leads to an answer for 'Where were you when you heard?". August 6, 1945, Though I was only 5, I remember. 11/22/63, I remember. 9/11/01 I remember. If RFK had not been killed during an election year, no one would even remember the year (my opinion) MLK killed in 68 also, only remember that it was same year as RFK. But what is interesting to me that the 'fluff piece' by Manchester was a memorable book for you. It's not the kind of book I would read. I don't know if it is promoted as a History book or not, but I only read a History book that I figure has at least a 50-50 chance of being accurate. I figured his book as fluff. I, like many, was very impatient for the WCR to be released. It didn't take long to realize it is 'fluff' also. A book written with an agenda. The agenda usually not having anything to do with the word 'truth'. There is a great difference in a book that has an agenda to not tell the truth and then there are those that try to tell the truth, but for various reasons, get it wrong. Most CT books fit that category. All LN books seem to be of the 'we don't want anyone to know the truth and we're telling whatever lies are necessary to cover up the conspiracy". I have asked more than one Brit why there is such a fascination with JFK's death in GB and also in Australia. I think there are more Brits (including Canadians and Australian) that comment on JFK Forum's than there are Americans. Why do you think? The only foreign leader I recall much detail over their deaths are Adolf Hitler and the PM of Australia that drowned. (can't remember his name) I still kinda think he was Coup'd. Somebody wanted to get rid of him.
  8. Looks like about T 8 to me. it's below the bottom point of the scapula. the scapula extends from T2 to T7 and it's slightly below that. You're joking, right? why would I be joking? Depends on which spot you're looking at. The only thing that looks like a hole is about T7 - T8. Looks like a mosquito might have bit up about T 3 but don't see anything that looks like a bullet hole as that one at T7-8 does.
  9. The other side of the K card could be a vowel. There's nothing in Glenn's problem statement that excludes this possibility. If there is a vowel on the other side of the K card, then the proposition is proved false. You cannot discard the K card. If there is a vowel on the other side of the K card, then the proposition is proved false. If there is a vowel on the reverse side you wouldn't know it because you have not seen it since you can't turn over a card that does not fit the first qualifier, If a vowel......then
  10. You are shown a set of four cards placed on a table, each of which has a number on one side and a letter on the other side. You are shown a set of four cards placed on a table, each of which has a number on one side and a letter on the other side. So now we are starting with a different set of rules. in order to test the truth of the proposition that if a card shows an even number on one face, then its opposite face is a vowel? OK, now we're back to an If or then
  11. See, I told you that you were changing it in the middle of answering. First this is the statement: 'If a card has a vowel on one side, then it has an even number on the other side.' and you have now changed that to: "EVEN NUMBERS will ALWAYS be found on the other side of a VOWEL." That doesn't even come close to being the same thing. See that first sentence If it has .... then it has. NO, Ken. first of all, I haven't CHANGED anything as far as instructions or descriptions go. these are the same words that were used on the original site where the test is. and i haven't changed a letter. I've ONLY described to you what that statement MEANS, and you have some idea that it means something entirely different than what most othhers think it means. If it is raining then I will get wet MEANS that I WILL ALWAYS get wet IF IT IS RAINING. This is what has been established as a premise, a conditional statement, a given. it's what we're trying to prove or disprove. If I bang my knee then I will scream MEANS I WILL ALWAYS scream WHEN I bang my knee. If there's a vowel on a card, THEN there's an EVEN number on the other is the same thing as saying THERE WILL BE an even number on the other side of the card that shows a vowel. this is the statement we are trying to prove or disprove. If you turn the E and a an even number is present, then SO FAR, the statement is proven. If we turn the E and a 7, or a G, is there, then the statement is disproved. those are exactly the same statements. If there's a vowel on a card, THEN there's an EVEN number on the other is the same thing as saying THERE WILL BE an even number on the other side of the card that shows a vowel. This is a good sentence to show the problem. Let's start with "IF" there's a vowel on a card, "THEN" there's an Even number on the other (I'll insert the word 'side' here which I'm sure was inadvertently left out) you may have to assume that the cards are laying on a table and you can only see one side. then it says 'if' there's a vowel on a card' so at that point, the only card of interest is 'if there's a vowel visible' then you can look to see if it is a fact that it has an even number on the other side. Even in the 'restatement' it says 'there will be' and even number on the other side of the card 'that SHOWS A VOWEL'. So "if there a vowel" or the 'card that shows a vowel' in either case you can only see what is on the side that is visible and it must have a vowel on it. And yes i'm enjoying this.
  12. these are the same challenges, just worded a little differently... hopefully this will clear up any ambiguity... Ahem......just worded a little differently...or 'restated' a little differently?
  13. Ok Glenn, here is post no. 1 clearly the question here is:"The condition is now established (true): 'If a card has a vowel on one side, then it has an even number on the other side.'" And the here is post no.21 where the question has become: : EVEN NUMBERS will ALWAYS be found on the other side of a VOWEL. In the first statement, there is an If......then condition... That conditional statement is not included in the 'restatement in 21. The word If, to me means that you look at a card and IF it satisties a condition as this does IF Vowel, then ........... Remember the condition is established as true that IF vowel then even. Nothing else. While the restatement meets one possible condition, it implies something else which is not true. The restatement "EVEN NUMBERS will ALWAYS be found on the other side of a VOWEL" has no IF condition or a 'Then' condition.
  14. and not reading the question correctly is probably the single biggest mistake made, i'm seeing. I'm gonna bet that 'not stating the question correctly' is going to be the biggest mistake made. as i've said about FIVE times, Ken. i used the technology within my brand new Windows 10 to perform a COPY of the original text as is available on the website from whence this test came, and used the same technology to perform a PASTE function into the POST i created. This has the result of taking each letter of the original text and transferring it, in order, to the new document so that it, in all intents and purposes, save for some protons, probably, is identical to the original. I have been programming in multiple computer languages for about 12 years. People pay me to do this for them. one of the first things I learned, out of the womb, pretty much, was the art of copy and paste without screwing up the objects that i was wanting to move. My MOTHER can even copy and paste, and she can't even feed herself. (not strictly true, sorry mom). what diction and grammar is presented with the said question would have been the choice of its author. not mine. if, unlike the rest of the people who are gladly and harmoniously participating in this exercise, you feel that the question is trickery or otherwise poorly worded, bitch to the doctors who wrote it. I'll send you the links to their websites in a PM if you feel that it will help you arrive at the answer any better. would you like me to send the link to you? everyone else seems to be engaging and learning in this thing, and i don't want to cut it off by posting the answer. See, you made an assumption: I said nothing about your ability to cut and paste. I said nothing about 'you' stating the problem correctly. My statement was: " I'm gonna bet that 'not stating the question correctly' is going to be the biggest mistake made."
  15. T3 is well below the throat wound -- obviously! I fail to see the value in discussing a wound that never existed. When are you going to demonstrate how JFK's jacket collar dropped into an elevated position? Cliff which wound are you saying never existed, the one pictured on his back or the throat wound? Or some other wound? The high back wound The bullet holes in the clothes are 4 inches below the bottom of the collars -- that location is not at the top of the back. I agree that the bullet wound in his back in that photo is several inches down from his neck, 5 or 6 inches or so.
  16. A set of givens that we know: LHO was seen on 6 of TSBD a rifle registered to LHO was found on 6 the day the pres was shot. bullets SHELLS matching the RIFLE were found on the floor of 6. LHO left TSBD soon after the shooting I have never seen it proven that LHO had a rifle registered to him.
  17. The "K" could have a vowel on the other side. No it can't. Vowels have even numbers on the back side, not other letters.
  18. I don't think you meant that did you? turn an E over and there is a vowel. 2 vowels on one card. I thought vowels had even numbers on them.
  19. See, I told you that you were changing it in the middle of answering. First this is the statement: 'If a card has a vowel on one side, then it has an even number on the other side.' and you have now changed that to: "EVEN NUMBERS will ALWAYS be found on the other side of a VOWEL." That doesn't even come close to being the same thing. See that first sentence If it has .... then it has.
  20. the one side that you can see is E K 4 7. you can't look at the 'other' unless you see a vowel. If a vowel, then.....
  21. If a card has a vowel on one side, then it has an even number on the other side. If this is stated correctly, then you do not get to see what is on the other side of a card unless you see that it has a vowel on the side you are looking at . If a vowel, then you can look. No vowel, no lookee.
  22. and not reading the question correctly is probably the single biggest mistake made, i'm seeing. I'm gonna bet that 'not stating the question correctly' is going to be the biggest mistake made.
  23. T3 is well below the throat wound -- obviously! I fail to see the value in discussing a wound that never existed. When are you going to demonstrate how JFK's jacket collar dropped into an elevated position? Cliff which wound are you saying never existed, the one pictured on his back or the throat wound? Or some other wound?
  24. Looks like about T 8 to me. it's below the bottom point of the scapula. the scapula extends from T2 to T7 and it's slightly below that.
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