Alistair Briggs

Mr. LIEBELER - What was the next contact then that you had with the Oswalds? Mrs. FORD - I think it must have been at--in late October or the first part of November when Mr. Bouhe called me and said that Marina made a call to Anna Meller and told her she is leaving her husband because of she can't stand the beating and treatment any longer from Lee Oswald, but none of us knew at the moment that he had mistreated her that way, but at the time at the party I remember seeing Marina with bruises on her face and she made excuses of running into a door or something at the night when attending the baby. Mr. LIEBELER - This was the first time you saw her? Mrs. FORD - That is right, the first time I saw her I did see bruises on her face. lol I know you know that as you have it in your Detailed Summary Of Testimony on page 1 of this thread. Anyway, I don't think Oswald was a 'wife beater'... he may have hit her once or twice, and not to excuse that, but maybe circumstances played a massive part... but we don't know! For all we do know he may have done it more and more and there were lots more 'bruises' but in a position that would not be visible to others - we just don't know. Setting aside the 'physical' side of things, there is so much more pointing to their marriage (and specifically at the time from arriving back to the US and becoming involved with the 'Russian community') being not good. There are also signs that when they disaccosiated with most of them that perhaps things were turning a corner in the positive. As I said earlier in the thread...

Yep. A lot of stuff out there to show how pitiful it was... Just as a point of correction it wasn't between the ages of 8 and 12, it was more like between the ages of 4 and 8... Lee Harvey Oswald was born Oct 18th 1939. His Mother first met Edwin A. Ekdahl in July 1943, and they married on May 7th 1945. They separated in the Summer of 1946 but reunited in January 1947. In the Summer of 1947 Marguerite finds out that Ekdahl is having an affair but they 'continue' on until January 1948 when she kicks him out the house. In March 1948 Ekdahl files for divorce which is finalised on the 24th of June. But yeah, his life was never the same...

In a previous thread I mentioned that I felt 'pity' for Lee Harvey Oswald. His life from childhood upwards was not great as this timeline attests.What chance in life did he really have. Anyway, yeah, I think it is a good thing to compare similarities between LHO and either ourselves or someone we know in a comaprable position. Trying to draw on our known experiences and seeing how that might match up with his situation. It's a good tactic indeed. At the time of Oswald denouncing his US citizenship and threatening to divulge secrets, even if he had known was the result of that would have been (his discharge being downgraded) would he have worried about that. His thought process at the time would surely be that he was wanting to become a Soviet citizen and if successful whatver his discharge from the US Navy was would be irrelevant. It only became a 'problem' when he knew he was coming back to the US. Interestingly you mention about how you can envision him camping out until it was repaired. I agree with that thought. See if it was me in that position at the time and I wanted it to be changed I would be doing everything in my power to make it happen - if that meant travelling half way across the country then so be it - if it meant camping out for weeks then so be it. Oswald clearly thought his discharge being downgraded was unjustified - he called it 'illegal' and 'morally wrong' and he wanted it sorted and yet he (pretty much) 'demanded' that they came to him to sort it out rather than him going to them. That seems odd to me. lol Regards

I don't know. I will add it to my list of things to keep an eye out for and if I come across something I will post it here. Oh it's a lot more complicated than that. lol On the subject of Oswald and girls (from arrving in Russia to the point of being married to Marina), I have parsed the following relevant parts from Oswald's diary from that period. (I have bolded the 'highlights') Note (as per the footnotes to Norman Mailer's book Oswald's Tale) Nell Korobka should be Nellya Korbinka and Ennatachina should be Inna Tachina. To me that all speaks volumes about his 'attitude' to 'love'. Take the two Ziger daughters for example, He calls Leonara 'high strung' because she doesn't like that he isn't giving her attention and he isn't giving her attention because, at 26, she is too old for him and despite stating that she has a 'beautiful Spanish figure' and admitting that Anita is not as attractive he decides to 'pine' for the younger one who is 'off limits' as she has a boyfriend. Then there is Rosa who he had been 'dating' and then lost contact with a few months previous to the time he had first started seeing Ella, and then the both of them are at his at the same time and he mentions that they are jealous of each other and that gives Oswald a 'warm feeling'. Aye right enough, every man's dream eh to have two girls 'fighting' over your affection. lol Then within the next two months he has made a 'conquest' of Inna Tachina and also had an 'affair' with Nellya Korbinka and all of a sudden he is in love with Ella and wants to marry her and that's after she had refused his dishonorable advances! Is it any wonder she turned him down really. lol Not to worry 3 months later he will be introduced to Marina and within 2 weeks ask her to marry him and 2 weeks later they are married. Anyway, what I parsed from Oswald's diary above is all just about what he says about the girls. There is so much more in that diary about his 'emotional' state generally that also (imo) speaks volumes. Regards

*What about the testimony of Mr and Mrs Tobias? Sure, they weren't first hand witnesses... still! Edit - they tie in with the November thing. But the one Marguerite saw was approx mid September.

Bill, to be fair, and just to avoid any confusion, Tommy didn't claim that Calvery was a native American, what he said was that (what had previously been identified as) Calvery was (actually) native American Stella Mae Jacob.

In one of your previous comments you mentioned the following; In furtherance to that, Here is a section from the book 'From Love Field (our final hours with president John F Kennedy)' written by Nellie Connally and Mickey Herskowitz. First published 2003.

I have been doing a bit of digging about with regards to the discharge being downgraded and what Oswald did about it... from what I have found so far, it was downgraded to 'undesirable' on September 13th (possibly 11th) 1960 but Oswald didn't find out about it until January 30th 1962 when his mother wrote to tell him, that very same day he wrote his letter to Connally about it. The letter was passed on to Fred Korth and the Navy responded to Oswald saying that it wouldn't be changed, not sure when Oswald recieved it, but it has to be before the 22nd of March as that was the day that he wrote to R. McC. Tompkins, Brigadier General USMC, Assistant Director of Personnel about it. The next time I can find mention of the discharge was on July 25th 1963 when his request for it to be changed was denied. ... Would the impact of his downgraded discharge result in 'problems' getting a 'good' job? On face value I would tend to say the answer to that would be no. Of course that's not to say that Oswald may have thought it would be a problem - or perhaps using it as an 'excuse' for his own limitations! Anyway, what you mention about the 'positives' and 'negatives' of Oswald, I see what you are saying there and think you make a good point there. What do you make of Oswald's 'personal' relationships, especially in regards to members of the opposite sex?

Just one of those things, where my brain never made the connection at first. lol btw my earlier question about phoning her or writing a letter to her was a genuine question by the way...

*When I first read that Stella Mae Jacob was Indian, I just presumed it meant Indian, like actually Indian, rather than 'Native American'. No biggy though...

I agree. $75 seems way too small an amount for such a photo. Thanks for the link, much appreciated.

The 'official' story is that LHO asked for the dependency discharge because of an injury sustained to his mother. There certainly had been an injury to his mother. Still sounds like an excuse to get out the Marines though - rather than spend time 'nursing' his mother back from injury, within a week he was off on his travels... I know that Russia was his final destination! Leaving the US on the 20th of September, sailng to France and arriving there 8th of October, hops over to England, hops on a plane to Finland and it is only when he is Finland that he applies for a visa to visit Russia, he is given a visa that expires one week later... Oswald's diary of the time (transcript here) is also of interest in terms of his state of mind. In the 17months between arriving in Russia and first meeting Marina there was a lot going on for Oswald. He seems to be up and down and up and down in his mental state. Is that kind of person good material for an 'ONI dangle program'? Regards

If you were given her phone number would you phone and ask her? If you were given her address would you write her a letter?

*First NEW comment; Paul, one thing that stood out for me from your list of 21 was the first few leading up to and including number 7; I don't know if you have ever read the 'Timeline of Lee Harvey Oswald' by W Tracy Parnell. The part of that of relevancy here starts with "August 17, 1959: LHO requests a dependency discharge because of an injury sustained by his mother", from that point forwards there is quite a bit of information regarding his move to Russia and some of the things he did there - I wonder how some of those things fit in with your thoughts? Regards

.The last part of that makes me chuckle a bit. Lee is clearly so annoyed at having his 'honourable discharge' changed and he is adamant that it shouldn't have been changed - presumably he would want to do eveything in his power to do so, and yet he is only 'prepared' to appear in person at a place in his area. lol Anyway, it's an interesting topic.

The Discharge Of Lee Harvey Oswald and Other Related Issues In a previous thread there was a slight detour from the topic that lead to a discussion about Lee Harvey Oswald's 'honourable discharge' being changed to a 'undesirable discharge' and other related issues connected to it. So as not to stray too far away from the topic of the other thread, I thought starting this thread would be a decent idea. The first 8 'replies' below this I have copied from the other thread... Table of copied posts; Comment 1 by Brad Milch originally found here. Comment 2 by Alistair Briggs originally found here. Comment 3 by Brad Milch originally found here Comment 4 by Alistair Briggs originally found here. Comment 5 by Paul Trejo originally found here. Comment 6 by Joe Bauer originally found here. Comment 7 by Brad Milch originally found here. Comment 8 by Paul Trejo originally found here. (Those 8 comments are placed here for context - from this comment on is where the 'new' comments start)

Yeah the right or left handed is a strange one indeed. About his birth date though... ... one would hope that a parent (maybe, particularly a Mother) would get the date of birth correct. And yet, she was only one day out (19th instead of 18th). Some people could make that mistake relatively easy. I don't know. I see it as somewhat surprising, but not 'suspicious'... ...I might have overlooked something somewhere but is there any place where Marguerite actually says it was the 18th herself? Perhaps she just thinks it was the 19th and not the 18th. I don't know. Something that just jumped out at me there was that not only does she put Lee's birthday on the 19th (when it should have been the 18th) she also put her marriage on the 19th (when it was actually the 20th), what would make her think of the 19th so much? Maybe, just maybe it was because she was born on the 19th (I'm not suggesting that is the answer, merely offering it up as a maybe.) *As a slight aside (this morning I ran a small experiment and I asked my Dad what year my brother was born (his answer was 1976) and asked him what year I was born (his answer was 1982). He was wrong on both counts, my brother was born in 1977 and I was born in 1980.) About the how many sisters she had... ... I can't find that anywhere. I can't find it in the Carro exhibit. I can't find it in Carro's WC testimony. I can't find it anywhere. If there is a source for it that I am overlooking then hopefully someone can point me in its direction. P.S. I still can't find the Lillian Sigouerette thing anywhere either. Even a Google search for the name 'Sigouerette' is no help - it returned only 43 hits and each and everyone were the line from Armstrong's book " She gave her sister's name as Lillian Sigouerette, when we know her sister's name was Lillian Murrett.". I wonder what the source of it was... even doing a search for it on here only gives 3 results and that 2 of those are from me and you, the other is from Jack White in 2010 where he quotes it from the book... Jim, if you are able to perhaps ask John Armstrong for the source of the sisters thing and the source for the sigouerette thing that would be great. Regards P.S. I am very much appreciating our discourse here. I find the whole topic fascinating.

lol Regarding the rest of your quote, if you started a new thread about it I would be happy to throw out a response to it (rather than here so as not to get further off the original topic). Regards.