John Butler
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Posts posted by John Butler
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19 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:
The Commission said that the photos were taken on March 31st. They based that on the testimony of Marina Oswald, who told them that she took the photos on a Sunday about two weeks before the Walker shooting. March 31st was mostly a cloudy day, but that doesn't mean the sun couldn't have poked through a few times.
One of the problems I have with the BYPs is if you look at the holster in CE 133-A, you'll see the sunlight reflecting off the front of it. As one who has worn both, I can see that that's a holster for a 5 or 6 inch barrel hanging below his belt. The holster for a 2" snub nose is attached to the belt at the top and doesn't hang below it. The holster in the photo is not the same holster recovered from his room.
Has the holster been mentioned before? I don't recall any mention previous to this.
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1 minute ago, Gerry Down said:
The rifle in the backyard photos is a 40 inch rifle, and these photos were taken around March 31st 1963. So somehow Oswald got his hands on a 40 inch rifle. It stands to reason this is the rifle Klein's sent him.
That is if you accept the BYPs as authentic. Oswald didn't and said so. I know they are fakes just by inspecting the shadows in the photo. Noted earlier by others. It has already been noted by others that the BYP rifle was not the one Oswald was alleged to have bought. Oswald said he did not own a rifle. Marina said he did. Her part in this was keeping the investigation pointed away from the Soviet Union. She would and did say things that would have convicted Oswald in a court or in public's mind.
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13 minutes ago, Charles Blackmon said:
So obviously this would make the BY photos fakes that were put together after the assassination, correct?
Maybe or Maybe not? I recall Oswald being shown a BYP on the 23rd or Saturday after the assassination (perhaps Friday evening after the detectives returned from Ruth's garage). He said it wasn't him, but someone had pasted his head unto another's body. In time he would show this as a fake. (another example of face masks as routine to change the identity of a person in a photo)
Someone had to make the BYPs and store them in Ruth Paine's garage. Just prior to the assassination, or at some earlier time. Who stored the BYPs? If Oswald didn't who? Marina says he did. Of course, Marina would have said anything to remain in the US and not have to return to Russia with her children. Her duty was to keep track of Oswald. She was seen as a spy by the FBI, Hosty.
If I am recalling Chris Bristow correctly, he noted through sun angles in the photo that would suggest March/April as one time and then Sept./Oct. as another.
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49 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:
Jan 63 -- p. 61 -- 36-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)
Feb 63 -- p. 65 -- Same ad as above
Mar 63 -- No ad
Apr 63 -- p. 55 -- 40-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)
May 63 -- Missing pp. 63-66
Jun 63 -- p. 59 -- 40-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)
Jul 63 -- p. 67 -- 40-inch “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.78 -- $19.95 (with scope)
Aug 63 -- p. 79 -- Same ad as above
Sep 63 -- p. 89 -- Same ad as above
Oct 63 -- p. 85 -- Same ad as above
Nov 63 -- No ad
Dec 63 -- No adAre there any visuals of these ads in In the 1963 American Rifleman editions? Surely, since this list is based upon the ads in each addition of American Rifleman there should be the ads themselves as seen in a copy of that magazine. Show the ads. Let's see them in all their glory. Otherwise, this list should be viewed with skepticism and simply not factual but as said hearsay.
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14 hours ago, Pat Speer said:
Wow. Let's break this down.
1. Hosty never said that Oswald said he was outside at the time of the shooting. He never said it, at least not on the record. And no one who knew him ever came forward claiming he'd said it in private.
2. The note in which he said Oswald went outside to watch the P. Parade does not specify that this was Oswald's whereabouts at the time of the shooting. This is an assumption made by those who want to believe that's what it says, but in fact it does not say it. The first researcher to uncover this note, Malcolm Blunt, moreover, failed to see it as significant. Malcolm Blunt is a cautious man.
3. IF in fact Hosty did mean to write that Oswald said he was outside at the time of the shooting, we have little reason to believe it. Let's break this down as well...
From:
"Prayer Man: Exoneration of Lee Harvey Oswald
Tuesday, August 23, 2016
“The early interrogation reports were sketchy, but they do shed light on where Lee Oswald said he was. According to the notes of Police Captain Will Fritz, Oswald claimed to be out in front with his boss, Bill Shelley.”
There is only one time that Oswald could be outside on the steps with Shelley. That is during the P Parade as stated by Hosty. Shelley and Lovelady left the steps after the shooting. If Oswald came out late then Shelley and Lovelady were gone presumably to the railroad yards. But, probably back into the building.
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9 minutes ago, David Josephs said:
Can't even tell if that's Lovelady on the left.. but hey, we all gonna see what we see, right? You want to claim there are alterations in every aspect of every image (like your movement of Jean and Mary) then so be it. I'm not going to get into it with you. I left the forum due to silly arguments and assertions like turning Lovelady into Oswald or moving Jean and Mary up to the top of Elm... see what you like John....
Best of luck
DJ
David,
I have no animus towards you. Different people see different is true. I too wish to avoid any more H & L posts. But, you cannot deal with the TSBD without realizing there were two Oswalds there at the time of the assassination.
The last thing I would want to do is start and argument over aspects of the TSBD, or continue on with H & L points. That ended with Jim Hargroves quit the fight with some of the opponents of the theory.
Best wishes
JRB
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2 hours ago, David Josephs said:
had thought maybe PM was Lloyd Viles based on what Shelley had said, but yet again Shelley fibs
Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the front?
Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them.
Mr. BALL - And who was out there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.
Mr. BALL - You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. SHELLEY - yes.
This is from Elsie Dorman showing Vimes and the two ladies. They were on the SW corner when the assassination occurred. This Dorman frame is just a few seconds from the p. limo entering the intersection of Houston and Elm. They must have crossed over to Elm when the motorcade was halted on Houston St.
One can easily see Lloyd Vimes as the man behind Doorway Man. That is like the "two" Algens in the Zap film.
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18 hours ago, David Josephs said:
John, I know I for one have explained this to you a number of times.
The image you offer is not a photograph but a frame from a moving picture camera which is also panning and moving at the same time.
If you truly wish to use that Towner frame to argue either Towner or Altgens was altered you are once again using the poorest quality source material you can find.
When a camera pans like that everything not the focus of the panning will be blurry (how we can tell certain Z-frames are altered)
The WHITE TAN BLACK BLOBS and a terrible re-colorization with filters of that area still makes it difficult to see anyone there
And below, we have Hughes with the white shirted Lovelady in plain sight, the same frame you offered is bottom right where once again the blurred appearance of people in the doorway is obvious.
The alteration to TOWNER is a very complicated process and is not designed to remove people from the stairway... it is designed to sync with Zapruder, which it does not.
I still suggest you take a bit more time and brush up on how light and cameras work along with the sizes of the frames and the sizes of these images in the frames.. Detail stinks on a macro level and yet you want to arrive at micro conclusions using the same images?
John, show us in Towner/Zap/Nix/Bond what Truly describes... and then look at Position A. Towner was altered, but having nothing to do with the TSBD doorway. (I show in a different thread how the limo was made to move independently of the background in Towner.. look it up, pretty amazing really.
DJ
Mr. BELIN. The street leading to the expressway, that diagonal street?
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.
Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb?
Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.
If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here.
I stand by what I posted. Some of your images and descriptions I find unconvincing. A number of conclusions are not too different from what I posted.
"you are once again using the poorest quality source material you can find."
As far as my image of Doorway man crop, it is not the poorest image found. It is from this very clear Altgens 6 photo. This image is less than the one I used. A reduction of 3 times its original size. It is reduced to meet forum standards on size:
The crop you say is the poorest image is better than yours.
Your image has been altered further from the original Altgens 6 photo. Note the shoulder and sleeve. Your image is altered by giving Doorway Man an extra shoulder that cuts across the suited man behind him in covering his suit coat. That's not what is seen in my crop showing Doorway Man from a very clear Altgens 6 photo.
Here, I feel that your image is better for seeing all the splices in the Towner photo/frame. But, the image I provided is taken directly from the Towner film and is of better quality.
You show many splices in your photo/frame. However, the Dallas Police are still there. The Towner film frame contains an anachronism. It also shows white hatted Dallas Police that were not there at the time of the assassination. They are the anachronism. They should not be there when the p. limo passes by.
In the Hughes film compare, you cannot tell whether that is Lovelady, or an Oswald being portrayed as Lovelady. It will not successfully blow up for a comparison.
Been there done that and not gotten an answer to whether that is an Oswald or a Lovelady.
12 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:I think that's Harvey Oswald.. IMHO.
Actually David Josephs said and not Chris.
Could be Harvey or could be Lee? Which one in the doorway? There is too much WC material to objectively rule out the bus/cab ride for an Oswald. Two Oswalds at the TSBD and it is hard to figure who went which way.
If I had to make a choice, I would go with Lee entering the Nash on Elm Street seen by Roger Craig.
A question for you: Which of the two, Harvey or Lee was the camera buff with all the cameras?
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Here's Andre's model:
And, then we have that wonderful animation, the Towner film:
This is taken directly as the p. limo passes the doorway. The people shown in Altgens 6 are not there. What we see are white objects I take to be Dallas Policmen's hats once they are connected to the black uniforms below. Can you explain this as a non-alteration as the p. limo floats dreamily by.
Where are the Altgens 6 people? ? ?
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There were two Oswalds at the TSBD during the assassination. One left by bus/cab and another by Nash Rambler.
From the John Martin film I have identified Prayerman as being on the street by the trees at the corner of the west TSBD as the p. limo passes by. He appears to be taking photos with camera flashes. That excludes him from being Doorway in Altgens 6. Because of the shooting of the President in front of him he runs to the doorway for cover and concealment from the shooters. He beats Baker and Truly there.
Doorway man is not Billy Lovelady. He is an unknown. Cutouts/facemaks/composites are standard techniques in photo alteration. Just check the BYPs man. Or, early photos of Oswald which are said to be composite. If you can't see the mask there in Altgens 6 when it is so badly done I haven't nothing more to say.
There may be the possibility of the second Oswald being Doorway Man. This would require the other to cover for him. But, he had been doing that for years.
Oswald didn't have apple cheeks and such a narrow chin. That is abnormal in appearance. Look at the difference in the lighting of the mask and the rest of the face of Doorway Man. Another thing you may notice is his deformed, abnormal shoulder that slopes way down below his breast area. It is cut straigh downward.
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2 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:
John,
Chris,
I usually don't pay much attention to Robin Unger's posts since in my opinion they are biased in one direction. Bell on the grass could not have seen or filmed the west rail of the railroad bridge. To see the 140 feet across the TU then one has to be at a higher elevation. There are structures in the way from his position on his perch. That's a fact.
Here's is what made me think about this.
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On 8/1/2022 at 10:49 AM, John Butler said:
Bell frame, as seen in this photo/frame may be a fraud.
To further amplify on this I have prepared the following:
Bell Possible Fraud
This is a photo from Jay Skaggs catching one of the press cars, and across Houston Street, four photographers including Mark Bell. This was after another photo showing the president. By this time the p. limo must be approaching the intersection by Bell's direction.
The first question to ask here is how could Bell film to the Triple Underpass through the Arcade structure, tree, and sign without including those in the film? I don’t have an aswer, but it is very suspicious.
Here is what we see in a Bell frame that includes the Triple Underpass:
You can see across the railroad bridge, 140.16 feet from the east rail to the west rail. Is that possible at a 5, or 6 feet height of his perch? Someone should take a Bell camera and see if that is possible.
Altgens 7 is clearly a fraud. In Altgens 7 we can see the west rail of the railroad bridge. There is nowhere in Dealey Plaza on the ground you can see the west rail of the railroad bridge, particularly from Altgens position on Elm Street.
It takes height to see across the 140.16 feet, as measured by Google Earth Pro, of the railroad bridge. The question is how much height? Well, David Von Pein may have the answer. Here is a 1954 image of the Triple Underpass. It was probably taken from the Court Records Building at a height of about 30, or perhaps 40 feet, or more feet. This is reminiscence of the Bell frame.
Again,
Is the Bell film real or an altered product to show the railroad men on the underpass? This would be to confirm Altgens 7, an obvious fraud. This is why we often see a crop of the photo rather than the whole photo. I will believe it is real if someone goes down to Dealey Plaza gets on that perch with a Bell camera and duplicates the film. At this point, at least to me, the Bell film is a fraud designed to match and give credence to the Altgens 7 photo. And, the idea there were railroad men on the bridge at the time of the assassination.
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17 hours ago, Pat Speer said:
To be clear, Baker and Truly tried to call the elevator from the first floor, but it wouldn't come down. They thought it was stuck on the fifth, but it could have been the sixth.
Bonney Ray Williams locked the elevator to the 5th floor when he came down from the sixth about 12:15 or 12:20. There he joined Norman and Jarman. In my opinion that was to keep anyone from disturbing what was happening on the 6th floor.
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2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:
P.S. I have done a mountain of research into the goings on in the building and it seems near certain Oswald was not on the sixth floor at the time of the shooting. It seems likely, moreover, that the actual shooter took an elevator down after the shooting and arrived on the first floor just after Adams and Styles went out the back, Lovelady and Shelley went back to the front of the building, and Baker and Truly went upstairs. There is strong reason to believe, moreover, that Shelley was standing by the front stairs when Oswald came down from the second floor, and that he did, in fact, tell Oswald it was okay to leave.
Pat,
Then why was the elevator stuck on the 5th floor?
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Bell Unger Comparison
This a Google Earth Pro overhead of Dealey Plaza including the railroad bridge:
Look at railroad bridge and see its measurements for the bridge width at 140.16 feet. It has 7 train tracks creating the width. You can’t see across the width from most places in Dealey Plaza. Look pass the railroad cars. You will not see the other side.
This photo show that you can’t see the Western side of the bridge. Maybe Bell could. Then again maybe not.
Here is a comparison of a Bell frame with Altgens 7 showing particular problems:
You will notice that in both photos you can see to the other side of bridge. That’s not possible in Altgens 7. Maybe in Bell’s frame, maybe not.
The bridge is 140.16 feet wide. Standing in Dealey Plaza anywhere it is not possible to see the Western side of bridge, the exception is Bell’s perch on Houston Street. The railroad bridge slopes down hill to the west.
Conclusion:
1. Altgens 7 is fraud using imagery perhaps from Bell, or another source.
2. Bell frame, as seen in this photo/frame may be a fraud.
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Sandy
Makes sense to me. A high speed, or supersonic round will more than likely exit the body. A subsonic round may not pass through the body depending on how the round was loaded. And, that is the way to reduce collateral damage in a crowded area.
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The larger keyhole shaped wound is a wound of exit clearly visible on Kennedy's back, not entrance. It is too large for an entrance wound. OBTW, how do you explain the nice heart shaped black patch. From the assassins with love?
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5 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:
No, not really. The Commission knew it had a problem with the backyard photographs in as much as Marina testified that she took the pictures on a Sunday around noon and there were only three Sundays ( March 24th, March 31st and April 7th ) between the dates the weapons were shipped ( March 20 ) and the attempt on Gen. Walker ( April 10 ). Her testimony that it was a couple of weeks before the Walker attempt seems to eliminate April 7th and the fact that March 24th was a cloudy day seems to eliminate that date as well.
You don't get shadows on cloudy days.
And, shadows that go in different directions. There is some speculations that the byps were created just before the assassination.
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2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:
That's not blood stain spatter. That's a blood stain created as Kennedy sat leaning to his left and then on his back in the limo. It can be presumed that much of that blood came from his head wound. It tells us nothing about the direction of the shot.
I used the word splatter since it fits with the TV character Horace Rumpole. Perhaps it is not the right word, but the direction of the blood flow is indicative of the direction of the shot.
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I wonder what Rumpole of the Old Bailey would think of the blood stain splatter. Shot from the right front?
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Typical responses by those who have a fervent believe in the correctness of the films in Dealey Plaza. Alterationist. I would accept the charge if it wasn't name calling.
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37 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:
Your observation is wrong.
Can you prove me wrong? Or, is just another one of your boldly stated opinions.
Take the opportunity to show me how I am wrong.
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Did anyone ever think about comparing the Bell film to the Zapruder film as the p. limo approaches the railroad bridge? Comparing the two what are all those people doing at the end of the grassy area when they are not as far as I can tell in the Zapruder film. If this observation is true whose film is true and whose film is false?
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1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:
When you have Hathcock, Brian Edwards and Craig Roberts all saying that no it could not be done. And then you have all the technical problems with that particular piece of junk, I mean, rifle?
I mean please.
Absolutely. Besides, nobody on the 3rd or 4th floors heard shooting from directly above them, or off by less than 40 ft. Most heard shooting from the west, or in the case of Elsie Dorman who heard shooting from the Court Records Building. All the 5th floor threesome heard shooting form above. One later recanted and who could believe Bonnie Ray Williams?
Tina Towner
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
James "Ike" Altgens was a photo editer for the AP and he was stationed at the Dallas Morning News.
From Wikipedia:
"James William "Ike" Altgens (/ˈɑːlt.ɡənz/;[1] April 28, 1919 – December 12, 1995) was an American photojournalist, photo editor, and field reporter for the Associated Press (AP) based in Dallas, Texas, who became known for his photographic work during the assassination of United States President John F. Kennedy (JFK). Altgens was 19 when he began his AP career"