John Butler

Mark has done an amazing job of assembling witness information. He has 284 witnesses that I would suppose were along Main, Houston, and Elm Streets during the assassination. I tried counting the number of people on Elm Street (from TSBD to Triple Underpass) and just in front of the Court Records building. My count came out two ways. First with 167 people counted where there was no conflict between films and photos of that area. And, 279 people in those areas along Elm Street and in front of the Court Records building. I would estimate about 400 people if you count from the Court Records Building to the intersection of Main and Houston. (that's just a guess) 284 and 279 are about the same. However, there were people I missed such as those in the motorcade vehicles, those between the Court Records Building and the intersection of Main and Houston, and Main Street. If my memory is correct Roger Craig said he heard a shot while standing on Main Street. There were a small number of others.

Patsy Paschall is a difficult film to make things out in any detail. However, in this frame we can see the correct order of the motorcade. 3 Advanced motorbikes in the formation they used for parades. Next you can see the 5 advanced motorbikes in the formation they used for parades. They practiced these formations and had plenty of experience in using them. This changes for the five when they turn in an intersection. They had a well practiced routine of 3 bikes going first followed by two more. Then came the Lead Car. In this frame notice that the 5 motorbikes are very close to the Lead Car. As I said, it is a bit difficult to see. Patsy Paschall is filming from the Old Court House and the parade is just about there. There is the 3 Advanced motorcycles in information and behind and near the Lead Car is the 5 Lead Motorcycles.

The John Martin film shows the sequence of 3 bikes making the turn, directly after 2 more bikes making the turn, and then the Pilot Car: This indicates what is shown is the Lead Motorcycles.

Altgens 1: Bothun 1: Bond 1: The point I am making here is that it is very difficult to tell which group of motorcycle policemen this is. It is the same in all the other films and photos. So, how do you determine who's who at what moment in time.

The Advanced Motorcycles were: S. Q. Bellah Glen C. McBride J. B. Garrick The Lead Motorcycles were; Leon E. Grey E. D. Brewer Harold B. Freeman W. G. Lumpkin Stavis Ellis The members of these two motorbike formations did not separate from their formation as far as I can determine. They stayed pretty much in formation until making a curve at an intersection. What you have is part of the Lead Motorcycles (2 members) following almost directly behind the Advanced Motorcycles. Muchmore shows the 3 Lead bikes and very quickly behind them 2 more Lead motorcycles. Then there is a few distorted frames and less then a half second the presidential limo. Instead of what we see in Muchmore you show: Muchmore shows this frame of the 5 Lead Motorcycles (actually 4 in the frame) just before the presidential limo. Then less than a half second later: Can you explain this? It's a puzzler for sure. Hughes does not show either the Advanced or Lead Motorcycles. It does show the Pilot Car directly in front of the p. limo. The Altgens photo at the intersection of Main and Houston shows images to vague to interpret. Bothun 1 shows may show the Lead Motorcycles, but is hard to say. Bond shows motorcycles but difficult to tell which set. Bell shows motorcycles (Lead) just in front of the Pilot Car as they turn onto Houston is made. So, I am saying the films and photos don't show your sequences.

Just a bit of nit picking here. I may have mentioned this before. The car you have marked as No. 1 is the Pilot Car. This was actually the No. 2 car in the motorcade for most of the trip. The Advance Car was No. 1. This vehicle left the parade at about Main and Market St. If my memory is correct. Here you can see the Advance Car and the Pilot Car on Main Street just before Market Street which is about 2 blocks to the Houston Street turn. To be nit picking correct the Pilot Car should be marked as No. 2.

David, Here's something for those fellows to decry. It's a direct consequence of the head size difference:

Your job would be a lot easier if you had the film or photos that were being taken in that moment as shown in the Willis and Betzner photos. Some, but not all might be someone clapping their hands. But, many look like they are holding cameras. If you look at the films and photos taken in Dealey Plaza of the motorcade you only find just a couple showing the passenger side of the presidential limousine. This is Zapruder and Skaggs along Houston and Elm Streets. There is something that the conspirators did not want shown from the passenger side of the limo. IMO, the reason for this is if you saw the photos or films being taken here they might show something different from Zapruder. All along the parade route from Main Street to Elm Street there are these unknown photographers.

Is this from Oswald and the CIA? I have a copy boxed up. Guess I need to dig that out. I didn't like the book because (if my memory is valid) Newman said something to the effect that he was following the paper trail of the man rather than the man. I may have misread this, but I believe that he had Oswald in Mexico City. I don't think he was there and follow David Josephs reasoning and evidence that says he was not there.

Paul, This comes from David Josephs' very valuable timeline. I use it all the time. Tracy Parnell has a great timeline also. I use both to check for things happening at certain times. Tracy's timeline has just the events of a single Lee Harvey Oswald. David's breaks down those events into a Harvey and a Lee. Between those two and whatever else I can put my hands on I am creating my own timelines. I'm just about to finish Oswald in Russia. Then I am going to move on to New Orleans. My timelines are less valuable because they are to hold my speculations on the events the timeline is concerned with. For instance I am firmly convinced that Mae Brussells is correct when she said Oswald was sent to Russia to help bring down the U2 and disrupt peace talks between the US and USSR. This is what I concluded from looking at Oswald's military service. It all had to do with the U2.

Thanks Sandy, Here are more examples:

If this work of Stone's turns out to be a movie then I think I will go to a movie again. Haven't been to a movie in years. There's way to much "social" content in movies today and not enough good scripts telling an interesting story with interesting characters.

This argument is the same kind of thing as aliens built the pyramids, moved unusually heavy stones, the Anti-Kythera device, the rustless iron stelae in India, Nazca lines, and on and on. It basically says humans are not intelligent enough to invent things on their own. There are no good books about aliens and ufos. This includes Jim Marrs' book. In order to believe in bigfoot, I need a fossil. In order to believe in UFOs, I need part of the craft or the craft available so that it is in the public and there is no doubt. I think I would believe the president if he made a national address and said "yes, there are aliens". I am not a thoroughly skeptical person. Some days I think Bob Lazar is ok. Other days not. Whether or not his story is believable, he tells a story in a believable manner.

James, Either SGT Chidgey made a mistake or that is not Harvey Oswald. Harvey Oswald did not have hazel eyes. He had blue-grey eyes. It looks like further info is need to decide the point. It would have been nice if there was a photo involved with SGT Chidgey's application. OBTW, if you have any doubt has to who Harvey is in a photo look at his left ear. It's a pretty good identifier.

A 5'8'' Oswald is not a big deal. A hazel-eyed Oswald is. Once again, I ask the question who was the 5'8" hazel-eyed Oswald? My rather sketchy knowledge of human growth and development recalls that growth ends when bones began fusing after the growth spurt in males. On Oct. 24, 1956 Harvey Oswald at 17 years and could have been 5'8". Then during the course of the next year or two grew another inch. It occasionally happens that males can still grow in height to their college years. So, the notion that Harvey was 5'8" and later at the autopsy 5'9" is plausible. Or, that he was once measured at 5'10" might be an error. I don't think he would have shrunk 1" in height by age 24. The problem with the Sgt. Chidgey record is the hazel eyes. Any picture of Harvey shows he has blue-grey eyes. That's a fact. You can't get around that. We can't accept one part of a record and deny the other. Oh, I guess we could, but to me that would not be sensible. I have always speculated there were more than two Oswalds. Height and eye color might lead one to think the same thing. I remember being inducted into the US Army. There was a thorough medical examination by trained medical personnel, doctors and nurses. It went on all day. Every thing was carefully noted about one's personal features (I assume that has to do with body identification). I suspect the same was for the Marine Corps. I don't think they would have gotten Oswald's eye color wrong. We could say that they did, but there is no evidence that the Marine medical people did, or SGT Chidgey. One has to go with the info provided. So, who was the hazel-eyed Oswald?

I have from time to time had disagreements with Chris which he usually won in pointing out some of my mistakes. I appreciate that. The truth is more important than ego. You have got to admire the tremendous amount of work put into this thread by Chris. Working with the Zapruder film must be truly frustrating in trying to get the truth out of it.

Thanks John. I just had flashes of sociology classes where anti-wasps were a dominant theme. WASPS meant White Anglo-Saxon Protestants and were the originators of the dreaded Puritan work ethic.

Hi John, Any idea why "Wasp" network? Any idea why the word wasp was used?

Thanks for this info. I didn't know Oswald made two distributions let alone 3. Harold Weisberg in Oswald in New Orleans P. 55 says, well the way he put it one can calculate August 16 as the date, but not where. He said "Two weeks after his arrest from the handbill distribution- on August 22, only 6 days after his third and last operation...." This then becomes: 1. May 29- 1000 FPCC handbills ordered (Tracy Parnell timeline) 2. June 16- Distributed on Dumaine St. 3. August 9- Canal Street 4. August 16- ? I just found out there was an earlier CIA printing of leaflets, July 29, 1961, concerning "Crimes against Cuba". At the time Oswald was in Russia. Oswald in New Orleans, had a copy of this printing from 1961 in his possession when arrested on August 9, 1963. Oswald had lots of strange things in his possession at one time or another, this leaflet "Crimes against Cuba, a recent copy of Hungarian poetry in Hungarian, a minox camera, brother Robert's camera, and weapons he didn't buy.

Jim, How much credit is there In the ideas that Oswald was running a safe house or safe houses while he was away from Marina five days of the week? I have read that notion several times that one of Ruth's objectives was to separate Lee and Marina. Was that to keep an eye on Marina for the CIA or FBI since Hosty wasn't doing a great job of it. Or, for some other purpose? One other question. In the two file cabinets in the garage had one letter in a drawer. Were there file folders in each drawer of the file cabinets or was there just one file folder containing one letter? The reason I ask is this photo: It appears that at one time Michael Paine did woodworking. There is a band saw, what appears to be a drill press, and what appears to be a radial arm saw. File cabinets are usually used for paper products, but can be used for other purposes. It's a strange collection available. Wonder what is in those 4 or 5 barrels and what they were used for? There are boxes there that could be used to store files etc. The barrels could be used to burn things, but they don't appear to have carbon smudge anywhere.

I have several of Weisberg's books, but not that one. Thanks for the info. I have mostly the Whitewash books and I think Oswald in New Orleans (I'll have to dig that one out to be sure) That would be strange. Print the Leaflets and wait to late summer to hand them out. IMO, there is just enough hints out there to say Kerry Thornley was a player in what was happening in New Orleans that summer. But, his record was obscured so we don't know for sure what else he did there. I know people get bent out of shape when Judith Baker is mentioned. True or not, I believe she mentioned that Thornley was visiting Marina while Oswald was out with her. That brings up the question who was monitoring Marina while she was in New Orleans? Agent Hosty supposedly had that job in Dallas. So, who in Dallas? He was doing what used to be called "shucking and jiving" so that he would appear to be a low intel who just made stupid remarks like he was not in New Orleans during the summer of 1963 and therefore shouldn't be held to any perjury charges.

This was the cointelpro techniques I was referring to. They are well worth reading. Just to be snarky, see how many of these apply to the arguments of the other fellows in this argument. Here's a link and a doc I made below. https://whowhatwhy.org/2016/01/27/disinformation-part-1-how-trolls-control-an-internet-forum/ cointelpro techniques.docx

It's true David and I have had serious arguments over various things. But, we have gotten over that part because we have so many things in common. We have agreements on more than those few things we argued over. Whenever I get the chance I support David Josephs ideas. Harold Weisberg had much the same thinking long ago: Is it necessary to publish those bits of cointelpro in a 3 part essay on what they are about? I'll make a copy if some one wants to see that.

Just went out and read those. Whoever wrote that nailed it as far as some activity on this forum both past and present. And, it will continue into the future. Some folks can not stand for their WC conclusions to be challenged. They want to keep a false picture of what happened in Dealey Plaza alive. Example: I would say this is bait and switch from the Triple Underpass and the events there. I have written of these things several times. If that's not good enough for these fellows then I can't be helpful. It's something they wouldn't want to hear or believe anyway.

I don't disagree that the FBI altered the railroad workers testimony. They did that to a lot of witnesses. Mark Lane was just glad to have witnesses saying there was another shooter over on the Grassy Knoll. He didn't look to close at his evidence. The 10 railroad workers lied. They were not on the railroad bridge contrary to Altgens 7 and later scenes in the Bell film. They said they were on the bridge, but really they were just off the bridge (possibly) and kept off the bridge by Officer Foster. There are 6 examples of the Triple Underpass showing who was on the bridge. You can see that no one was on the bridge (Officer White was on the west side and not visible) in the following: 1. The Towner photo 2. The Bell film 3. Couch film 4. Hughes film 5. Martin film 6. Weigman film They may have lied about being on the bridge, but may have told the truth about what they saw. They were in a location where they could see the Grassy Knoll. Here is where I locate Officer Foster and the 10 railroad men (if they were there and I have some doubt on that). I would guess you could say this was part of the railroad bridge, but this is not what the slow talking, Stetson wearing witness said. He said he was on the bridge about where Altgens 7 places the railroad worker. I doubt the railroad men's testimonies for the following reason. They were railroad workers and would have probably said what their bosses required. The railroad and train companies wanted nothing to do with the assassination. A train there and a possible shooter on the train? That's plenty of reason to get railroad workers near the Triple Underpass to say shooting came from somewhere else. There was a train on the tracks and moving off just prior to the assassination. Officer White said he could not see anything about what was happening in Dealey Plaza when shots were fired. There was a train in the way. This calls into question the testimony of other witnesses over on the Stemmons and sidelines of the railroad. Shots may have been fired from this train. Some thought that. Jesse Curry was one thinking something was happening on the Triple Underpass. He wanted officers to find out what was happening on the Triple Underpass. Again, the railroad workers may have told what they saw truthfully. On the other hand, there is some suspicious concerning their behavior at the moment of the assassination. They were not on the Triple Underpass.