John Butler

Any idea who the hazel-eyed 5'8" Oswald was? Was that from a military record? Could you elaborate on that? I've suspected Thornley was involved with the pamphlet handing out scenes, but really did not have great evidence. A fairly tall guy, thin and balding, with a round head can match a lot of people. My other candidate was Lee Oswald. This photo was also part of the speculation: This is an altered photo that was used for the visa application for Oswald at the Cuban Embassy. If you do the opposite of what most people do, which is to smooth out the features on this photo, but sharpen it you have this kind of result. There appears to be a face mask applied to this individual making it an Oswald. Oswald's ears are very distinctive and this mask appears to include the ears. I don't believe this is Oswald, but a representation. The clue that this is an altered photo is in the left shoulder. Because of Thornley's round head and his trip to Mexico some time before Sept. 27 in August, I thought this might be him masquerading as Oswald. This photo is a composite in more ways than one. Notice the button down collar at the left and the regular collar to the right. I'm not sure that Oswald wore button down collars, but Thornley did. Here he is dressed in a white shirt and dark trousers and ready to go out and handout pamphlets. Maybe? And a big maybe at that. Not a good source of evidence to pin the rap on Thornley, but still suspicious.

Thanks David, This visa application was made in Mexico City at the Cuban Embassy by someone posing as Oswald on 27 Sept.? Or, is it just paperwork prepared by various government folk later to say that Oswald was in Mexico City at the time that they claim? Could this application have been made at an earlier time by someone else and then adjusted to fit Harvey Oswald? Photo, time, date, and signature adjusted? Kerry Thornley went to Mexico in August, 1963 according to A Farewell to Justice: I once had a speculation that Kerry Thornley is the man in the photo covered with an Oswald face mask. This spec was mainly based on Garrison's info that Thornley had made a trip to Mexico City in August and the appearance of the photo which has been altered. Thornley was mucking around in New Orleans for months in the same areas and with the same people as Oswald. I tried to get him into some of the Pamphlet photos, but Jim DiEugenio put the deep six to that spec. And, I can probably put this spec to rest. That is if I can get your opinion on this?

Welcome back. I've missed reading your posts. A great way to return with a great evidence summary backing up what I have always felt. To my point. Are you saying the passport application is as phony as the photo? Or, am I misreading?

Jeremy Bocjzuk brought up Mass Hysteria in Dealey Plaza and on going back through it again another idea popped up for consideration. Mass Hysteria contends there were 50+ witnesses who said shooting occurred in front of the TSBD. In other words, the assassination started on Houston Street in front of the Court Records Building and ended at the Southwest corner of the TSBD. This is definitely not the official story. I would assume the folks who ran the Warren Commission and other government agencies would have gagged on this. Others will too. The witness list has been revised since to about 54 witnesses, but remains essentially the same. This is a fairly long read, but stick with it you will find some things interesting at the end. Witnesses in Dealey Plaza on the 22nd of November, 1963 No one knows how many people were in Dealey Plaza on the day President Kennedy was assassinated. No one knows, out of the estimated number of people in Dealey Plaza, who were the witnesses who actually saw the assassination. This analysis will attempt to answer that question. Here are some estimates from the internet when queried on a question concerning the number of witnesses in Dealey Plaza on 22 Nov., 1963. From JFKFACTS: Reply Jean Davison says: May 23, 2016 at 10:52 pm According to Josiah Thompson’s tabulation in “Six Second in Dallas,” out of 190 witnesses on record about the direction of the shots, only 4 said they came from two directions. (p. 28, paperback). For any newbies out there, Thompson is a WC critic, not a supporter. Reply: Willy Whitten says: May 23, 2016 at 11:09 pm Josiah Thompson’s tabulation is old news updated with the correct information Jean. At the link below you can find the correct tabulation complete with the witness testimonies stating they heard the shots coming from the knoll. 52 witnesses said the Knoll 48 witnesses said the Depository 5 said both the Knoll & Depository http://www.history-matters.com/analysis/witness/Sort216Witness.htm The Mary Ferrell site says: Witnesses- Dealey Plaza was full of people who witnessed the assassination of President Kennedy. (But, does not quote a number) 22 November 1963 An Introduction to the JFK Assassination Says: Examination of photographs and home movies suggests that there were perhaps as many as 600 people in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination. Official interviews or statements exist for around 200 of these witnesses. Because the Warren Commission did no investigation of its own, almost all of the witnesses who testified before the Commission were chosen from those who had already made official statements. The other 400 or so, including many of the spectators nearest to the president, were never interviewed officially at all. Few of these missing witnesses were identified, even when the authorities had been informed of their existence. Deaths of Dealey Plaza JFK Witnesses: A Probability Analysis 30Oct Richard Charnin Oct. 30, 2017 Reclaiming Science:The JFK Conspiracy. JFK Blog Posts JFK Calc Spreadsheet Database Tables and Graphs The 1977 House Select Committee on Assassination (HSCA) claimed that the London Sunday Times actuary’s probability calculation of 18 material witnesses deaths (13 unnatural) in the three years following the assassination (1 in 100,000 trillion) was invalid. The HSCA claimed that it was impossible to calculate the probability because the witness universe was unknown. This canard was essential to the cover-up. No one did the math until I confirmed the actuary’s calculation in 2003 But there were many definable witness groups. Consider the 24 unnatural deaths of the 692 estimated Dealey Plaza witnesses. The probability of 24 unnatural deaths during the period 1963-1978 is P= poisson(24, 2.56, false) = 8.08E-16= 1 in 1200 trillion. Sixteen Dealey Plaza witnesses testified at the Warren Commission, 3 were sought to testify at the Garrison trial, 3 at the Church Senate hearings and 3 at the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA). From history-matters.com: Says: 216 Witnesses to the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy John F. Kennedy Over six hundred people witnessed the assassination of President Kennedy. Regrettably, the Warren Commission did not conduct an analysis of witness accounts, nor did it give any credence to the accounts of those witnesses who thought the shots came from the grassy knoll. …. So, these folks are saying the number of witnesses ranges from about 190 to 692. Generally, it is agreed that about 200+ witnesses made statements to the Warren Commission. This is out of a possible total of 600+ witnesses. Why were 400 or so people not questioned. I would think that of this possible witness crowd the 400 or so didn’t see the assassination. Maybe? If you follow the official story of the Warren Commission, then the assassination occurred between/about the Stemmons Freeway sign on Elm Street to the Grassy Knoll. This is best seen in such films as Zapruder, Muchmore, Nix, and the Polaroid of Mary Moorman. The official story indicates that most of the people in Dealey Plaza at the intersection of Main and Houston, along Houston street, and some at the intersection of Houston and Elm in front of the TSBD did not see anything. So, the best place to look for witnesses to the assassination in Dealey Plaza is from the Court Records Building on Houston Street to the Triple Underpass on Elm Street. Earlier it was said that “Examination of photographs and home movies suggests that there were perhaps as many as 600 people in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination.” I don’t believe that is true. I have, by examining photographs and films available, counted the people from the Court Records Building to the Triple Underpass. This count leaves the areas of east and west on Houston Street, the corners and crosswalks of Houston and Main uncounted. People on Main Street would not be counted except at the corners of Houston and Main. The number of people counted and uncounted might reach 400+, but not 600 or 692. My count is variable. I found that there are different numbers of people in areas along the route from the Court Records to the Triple Underpass recorded in the various films and photos. These are the areas surveyed: The area of the Triple Underpass. The area of the steps from the parking lot to Elm. Stemmons sign to the R L Thornton sign/lamppost. The south side of Elm Street across from the Stemmons sign. Moving east from the R L Thornton sign to the SW corner of the TSBD. From the SW corner of the TSBD to the TSBD doorway. The Doorway of the TSBD. The NE corner of the TSBD. The SW corner of Elm and Houston Street. The crosswalk of Houston and Elm between the Dal-Tex and the TSBD. In front of the Dal-Tex building. People in the Dal-Tex windows. The crosswalk between the Dal-Tex Building and the Court Records Building. Houston Street in front of the Court Records building on the east side. Houston Street on the west side in front of the Court Records Building. These are the films and photos that were examined (not in order): Zapruder film Hughes film Muchmore film Nix film Tina Towner film Martin film Bronson film Elsie Dorman film Bell film Weigman film Couch film Altgens 5, 6, and 7 photos Altgens photos Mary Moorman photos Betzner photos Willis photos Skaggs photos Weaver Photo This is the results from a two-part examination: Mass Hysteria in Dealey Plaza Part 2 Part 1 Mass Hysteria in Dealey Plaza Part 2 Part 2 From Mass Hsyteria in Dealey Plaza Part 2 Part 2: “15. The area on Houston Street across from the Court Records Building on the west side of Houston. This area is shown in Weaver and Hughes. These media are not clear enough to count numbers. The Elsie Dorman film shows this area. Using 3 frames that are related or contiguous, we have a count of 37 people. This includes people who were not counted on the SW corner of Elm and Houston. 130 + 37 = 167. The variable count is 242 + 37 = 279 people.” As you can see a count of the people in Dealey Plaza is true to most evidence one finds in relation to the death of President Kennedy. It is not possible to count the number of people in Dealey Plaza on the day of the assassination. This is due to the variability of the media showing people in the Plaza from the Court Records Building to the Triple Underpass. The number of people vary in a particular area in different photos and films. This makes it impossible to count the people in Dealey Plaza on the 22nd of November, 1963. This effort has the number from 167 to 279 people. The lower number rules out the count of an area if there is a conflict between films and photos. The higher number counts the highest number registered in photos and films covering that area. There were 15 areas named and covered between the Triple Underpass and the Court Records Building. There were 18 named films and photographer's photos covered. The 54 witnesses, from the original Mass Hysteria, who said that they heard shooting when the presidential limousine turned off Houston Street onto Elm Street. And, shooting continued while the presidential limousine was in front of the TSBD. 54 witnesses out of 167 people or 279 people represent a significant portion of that group. This is 32% for the lower number and 20% for the higher number. Somewhere between 1/3 or 1/5 of the people who were witnesses in Dealey Plaza that day said they heard shooting when the presidential limousine was in front of the TSBD. This is definitely not the Official Story of the Warren Commission, the HSCA, and the Zapruder film. It varies in significant ways from the Warren Commission. Surely, these people suffered from a mass hysteria in Dealey Plaza due to the savagery and brutality of the event.” Mass Hysteria on Elm Street Part 2 Part 1.docx Mass Hysteria on Elm Street Part 2 Part 2.docx

I've never really had an opinion on the Twin Towers. After listening to this, I think I will go back and review, in more depth, what Jack White said about the visual aspect of the buildings. OBTW, some folks think Trump is right on more things that others are willing to admit. He was elected president and will probably be reelected despite what others may say. It appears to be a bleak future for those making anti-Trump remarks. OTOH, it may be just the circumstance to rally and sharpen their views.

Sorry, it doesn't matter about download or source. We have all down loaded corrupted material from time to time. What is important is the small script printing error in this 1963 Fort Worth Star-Telegram material. It is an anachronism. News papers didn't make that kind of mistake in the 60s. The only entity that I know of that did was MS Word from the 1990s. It was either MS Word for Windows 1995 V.7 or Ms Word 1997. How can you tell? Well, the small script printing error would stop at a return for the next line. Check out the two examples in the Star-Telegram article. They end when there is a return for the next line. Inside a word that small script changes to larger print and is not apt to be a printing error of the Star-Telegram. From the internet: "The Star-Telegram is the nation's oldest continuously operating online newspaper.[6][citation needed]StarText, an ASCII-based service, was started in 1982 and eventually integrated into the paper's current website, star-telegram.com." They have had an digital or online service since the 1980s. Instead of posting photographic images, that require more storage space and memory think of 80s and 90s technology, of their material they may have resorted to retyping them. Text material stores way better, memory wise, than pictures. There was plenty of time to retype articles and put them online. That could be the same thing with the Vicky Adams document at Mary Ferrell. The article's content maybe true. I don't know. The small script anachronism says one should take a second look at it. Just as one should take a second look at this doc: The same type of error is present here.

Jim, I'm not sure it's a good idea to continue using this newspaper article. I think you should find the original copy or get it from that newspaper to check what I am going to say. This article in all probability was retyped sometime in the mid to late 1990's with MS Word. The software in MS Word about the time of Windows 95 or 97 had a printing error that randomly typed smaller type script such as seen in the newspaper article twice. Typesetters in newspapers would not have made this kind of error twice. I have run across this before at Mary Ferrell with at least one document concerning Vicky Adams. Most people will not see this and even if they do they won't understand it's significance.

Sorry Joe, For answering this so late. The photo of Kerry Thornley with a beard is from the an internet search on Kerry Thornley. It was just to show that at one time Thornley was as thin as Oswald and the unknown figure in the pamphlet scene. As the next photo shows Thornley was suspected to be the unknown figure in that scene. That notion has been changed by Jim DiEugenio's reporting of Thornley's height at 5'10". This particular film and scenes from it can not be trusted. It has been edited. Notice the unknown figure's head in the left scene is lacking the top of his skull. I have seen this many times in other photos where the editor did a poor cut and paste operation. Perhaps from lack of time or pressure to finish the work. The figure in the right photo has an Oswald figure in it. To me this figure has an Oswald face mask. I don't argue this any more because others can't see it or won't see it. The only true characters in the right frame scene is Bill Shelley and the pilot next to him. As you can in the left scene the same man is shown twice. This is the man Oswald hired to help distribute pamphlets. As far as the Ted Cruz's dad's figure, it is can not be proved to be Ted's dad. It may not be the person shown. If you look close in the left scene you can see the Latin figure has a face mask.

Kerry Thornley says no, no, I was not in New Orleans in the summer of 1963. Mr. THORNLEY. That is Cinco De Mayo. I arrived in California on May 5 and I stayed there until late August. Now, I think in one of these reports that I gave to the FBI. the information might be different. Since then I have checked with notebooks that I kept of my activity, and I was on my way back to New Orleans in late August. I went by way of Mexico City because I have taken 5 years of Spanish in school and I never had the opportunity to live in an environment where I would have to use it, depend on it solely, and I wanted to see how I would do. I have always wanted to visit Mexico, to see Mexico City. I checked into the prices. I had found out I had enough money that I would be able to go down to Mexico City and stay a short while. So I went down there for about a week, actually it was 6 days I spent within Mexico, from Tijuana to Mexico City, on a Mexican bus, and then when my money began to run out from Mexico City to Matamoros or Brownsville, Tex., on a Mexican bus. At this time, on my way up on a bus to Matamoros, it was September 2, because I had that in my notes, I have some notes about the bus ride and, the date September 2. And I went from Brownsville to New Orleans by way of either Greyhound or Continental. Mr. JENNER. When did you arrive in New Orleans? Mr. THORNLEY. I went directly to New Orleans, so I imagine I arrived in New Orleans on September 3, possibly September 4. Mr. JENNER. So that between approximately May 1, 1963, and September 4 and 5- Mr. THORNLEY. Say May 3 to September 4. Mr. JENNER. You were not in New Orleans? Mr. THORNLEY. Right. Mr. JENNER. You were returning to your home in California? You stayed there for approximately a month or so? Mr. THORNLEY. Longer than that. Mr. JENNER. Longer than that. You then went to Mexico, Mexico City, and you then returned directly to New Orleans? Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. During none of that period of time did you have any contact with or hear anything about Oswald? Mr. THORNLEY. Definitely not. Jim Garrison says yes, yes, you did and were in New Orleans during the summer. District Attorney Parish of Orleans State of Louisiana 2700 Tulane Avenue New Orleans 70119 February 21, 1968 P R E S S R E L E A S E Kerry Wendell Thornley today was charged with committing perjury before the Orleans Parish Grand Jury during his testimony on February 8, 1968. The perjury charges were based on his sworn testimony before the Grand Jury to the effect that he did not think he had met Lee Oswald in New Orleans in 1963. Evidence indicates that he did. …. This is the thing that I have read about repeatedly with the CIA agents mentioned in Kennedy research. I believe that Thornley was CIA or ONI loaned to CIA, a government agent of some sort. Their greatest skill was lying. Followed by roll playing and sticking to a script. If betraying a fellow agent was required so be it. Harold Weisberg talks about a Leon Oswald, dirty, unwashed, and unshaven. This is not the Oswald I see in photos of that period. I see this only at the Dallas Police Station. There are other examples of the dirty, unshaven Oswald. The visit to Sylvia Odio comes to mind. Perry Russo after some questioning and examining of his recollections decided that Leon Oswald was Lee Harvey Oswald after an artist put a beard on a photo of Oswald. Slyia Odio said that Leon Oswald was Lee Harvey Oswald. For a quick reference from Wikipedia “Odio testified that she was certain that "Leon Oswald" was Lee Harvey Oswald and that the meeting occurred prior October 1, likely on the preceding Thursday (September 26) or Friday (September 27).” It seems Garrison drew a beard on a photo of Oswald for Odio as was done for Russo. And, behold Lee Oswald was identified. Weisberg identifies a False Oswald. Just one of many incidents to come in the future of Oswald. Two bearded characters in the Oswald saga in New Orleans and Dallas. Any others? I just remembered Loren Hall: The problem I have with these characters is none of them look like Oswald. Time and memory recollection could change this if a questioner was suggestive of who they might be, say Oswald. Odio says that the Leon Oswald came around prior to Oct. and about Sept. 26 or 27 while Oswald was supposedly in Mexico. He left New Orleans on the 25th and didn't return I have read. The Kerry Thornley without a beard could be a better match as a double. Seymour shorter, I believe, but could over time morph into an Oswald in someone's memory. The Harvey and Lee story has Harvey in New Orleans. And, Lee possibly there too. Other possibilities for doubles were John Thomas Mason, who was said to be a twin of Oswald, but I don't see that either. Larry Crafard is also said to be a double of Oswald. If these are the choices one might as well just grab some average height guy of the street and claim he is Oswald. Many people have difficulty with facial recognition. With what I have read and seen on the forum that number is greater than one might suspect.

Thanks Jim, Kerry Thornley at 5'10" feet ruins a "wonderfully speculative notion" about the person in the photo below. I call this film frame the 3 patsy photo. It has an Oswald figure, Bill Shelley, and Chauncy Holt. There is also another figure, an unknown person, there who is pointed to by the red arrow. I'm trying to find out who that person was. In this photo the figure pointed out appears to be to tall for Kerry Thornley. But, he does have Thornley's round head. Not much help in identifying a person. In another film frame we have a Oswald that looks remarkably like the figure pointed to by the red arrow. The figure in the 3 patsy photo generally has his back to the camera so that he is not filmed in a way that he can be identified. Intentional? I had two candidates to this and one of them was Kerry Thornley. From what is written in this thread and other places indicates this might be Thornley. But, there is no real proof. The color frame is definitely not Kerry Thornley and is supposed to be Lee Harvey Oswald and I think that is correct. But, could pass as the red arrow figure from the neck down. Even the shirt tucked into the trousers looks similar. The 3 patsy photo is an altered film frame. I don't think the frame on the left is altered. This photo shows that at one time Kerry Thornley was as thin as the figure in the 3 patsy photo. His arm looks like the same as the photo. But, once again not enough for a firm identification. If Kerry was 5'10" feet tall then you could shave him an he could pass for an Oswald double. Better than some who are accredited to be an Oswald double. He has the same receding hair profile that Oswald had. Not enough for a firm identification.

Does anyone know how tall Kerry Thornley was?

I wonder what was said by Mary in the section of that sentence represented by the ….? What had to be left out?

Garrison was a legal pro in New Orleans for a long time. He knew the city, it's organizations, the people and had contacts and informers. I would suspect the deal of walking down Camp Street was a cover for the people he knew who provided him with information.

Thanks Andrej, That's the problem. Are her recollections truthful? I am aware of the statement by Mary Hollies on March 19, 1964. By this time the word was out that people who knew something were being shot and some killed. We need to keep this in mind when reading a witness statement months after the assassination. There is another statement she made on February 18, 1964. This is it: And, then there is her later statements at the 6th floor museum. I went over these sometime back when I was working on the "Mass Hysteria in Dealey Plaza" thread. She is one of the 54 witnesses in that thread that said something different from the official story. I like the part about her being on the 5th floor rather than the 4th floor where there is some photographic evidence of that. It's a bit suspicious and really suspicious if what she said was true in her later statement. All of her statements about the shooting and where the president was can be interpreted as the presidential limousine was on Houston, starting down Elm Street, or passing by the TSBD. And, that is not the official story. This is mainly why Mary Hollies has to be discredited. She may have creditability problems in other areas. I don't know anything about this. Could you amplify? There were other things she said that raised flags. But, the testimony about the shooting seems to be consistent. That's why I used her as one of the 50+ witnesses in Mass Hysteria.

Joe, I don't think I could say that better if I thought about in for a long time. Jim Garrison was the only person who tried to uphold the law in the Kennedy Assassination in court. We need more Great Americans like Jim Garrison.

Actually, Greg Douda said the above. This pretty much reflects my opinion of Hemming. Whenever, I read something from Hemming or listened to a Hemming video that is about what I heard. BS. The man in the know who really doesn't tell you much of anything.

Apologies to Jim DiEugenio, I just noticed I made an error. I copied this to a word doc from Jim DiEugenio's article, part 2 and had it this way: Jim DiEugenio says: Let me list just ten achievements of the deceased DA in comparison to work by Americans that came before him between 1964-67. Garrison was the first critic to declare that Oswald was an agent provocateur, probably in the employ of the CIA. The DA was the first critic to find out just what the stamp 544 Camp Street on Oswald’s pamphlet meant. Garrison was the first person to make a solid connection between Oswald, Ferrie, and Shaw, at the above Clinton/Jackson incident. The DA was the first critic to understand that Mexico City was a central part of the plot to kill Kennedy. Garrison was the first critic to comprehend that the escalation of the Vietnam War was a direct result of Kennedy’s murder. First critic to prove that Clay Bertrand was Clay Shaw (DiEugenio, pp. 387-88) Garrison’s leads were paralleled and backed up by the FBI (Click here for details) First critic who said JFK’s murder was a coup d’etat First critic who said the murder of JFK was designed to roll back JFK’s foreign policy. (Click here for details) First critic to say the murders of MLK and RFK were related to JFK. But, when I posted I failed to copy the Jim DiEugenio says. And, an apology to David Lifton for giving the wrong impression on whose this is. I will state again Jim Garrison was a Great American. On this I agree more with DiEugenio than Lifton.

Jim Garrison was a truly Great American. Let me list just ten achievements of the deceased DA in comparison to work by Americans that came before him between 1964-67. Garrison was the first critic to declare that Oswald was an agent provocateur, probably in the employ of the CIA. The DA was the first critic to find out just what the stamp 544 Camp Street on Oswald’s pamphlet meant. Garrison was the first person to make a solid connection between Oswald, Ferrie, and Shaw, at the above Clinton/Jackson incident. The DA was the first critic to understand that Mexico City was a central part of the plot to kill Kennedy. Garrison was the first critic to comprehend that the escalation of the Vietnam War was a direct result of Kennedy’s murder. First critic to prove that Clay Bertrand was Clay Shaw (DiEugenio, pp. 387-88) Garrison’s leads were paralleled and backed up by the FBI (Click here for details) First critic who said JFK’s murder was a coup d’etat First critic who said the murder of JFK was designed to roll back JFK’s foreign policy. (Click here for details) First critic to say the murders of MLK and RFK were related to JFK. Compare Jim Garrison to Kerry Thornley? IMO, Thornley was CIA and that's what his framing of Oswald was about. Some would call that patriotism or being a great American. But, I don't. Everything I read about Kerry Thornley comes up questionable.

Yes, let's clear up any confusion. Jack White is not a loon. Nor is he a member of the "tinfoil hat" group. I just had a look at some of Jack's research on the Twin Towers. This is the first time I have looked at his analysis. I did so briefly and spotted a couple of things that he talked about: 1. WTC No, 6 looks like it blew up prior to any planes crashing into the main buildings. 2. A photo of the Pentagon plane crash has light coming in from two directions. Photo editors are not artists. They don't seem to pay much attention to getting the correct light and shadows in their editing. If these are true then there is a serious difference in reality at the WTC and Pentagon plane incidents. That's jus like Jeremy mentioning "Mass Hysteria". That thread deals with a serious disagreement with the official story on the reality of Dealey Plaza at 12:30 PM on the 22nd. There were different realities in Dealey Plaza with "magicians' pulling the strings. I am currently working on a second part to Mass Hysteria in Dealey Plaza by counting the people visible in the various films and photos. To the point, there is no way to count the number of people in Dealey Plaza around the TSBD because the various films and photos show different numbers of people in various places around the TSBD. OBTW, if Jeremy and others don't quit their character assassination of Jack White, I may ask the editors to intervene and stress the rules of the forum to those who violate the rules.

Mary Hollies said he rode the bus. It's a long read, but fairly interesting. Sixth Floor Museum says she rode with Oswald on the bus. "occasionally rode the same bus as Lee Harvey Oswald" Yet all her statements say she did not recognize him except on tv she saw him and said she had seen him in the lunchroom numerous times. Why no mention in her statements about having rode same bus as LHO? Seems important information. When was the last time she rode with him, to or from work? Was he living on Elsbeth or another apartment/house. Did they get on at the same stop? Off at same stop? Walk the same way? She lived near intersection of Elsbeth and W. Davis, is that the only connection? Was she pulling someones leg? Mary Hollies: The girl in the window For a number of years the Sixth Floor Museum has conducted an oral history project that interviews individuals and lets them explain how the JFK assassination affected their lives. In January 2011 the museum posted a conversation with Mary Hollies. Ms. Hollies was a young French Canadian that travelled from Montreal and landed a job in the Texas School Book Depository as an underpaid, inventory stock clerk with the Scott Foresman Company in June, 1963. Dallas was quite a change for her. She referred to it as “Hicksville” after leaving a cultural center like Montreal. At the time, Dallas was small, most of the individuals that she met were not forward thinking and the only form of public transportation was the bus. Every morning, she would take the Beckley Street bus downtown and disembark at the corner of Main and Houston. In the fall of 1963 Lee Oswald began riding the same bus to work and eventually the two struck up a friendship. When asked, Ms. Hollies stated “The only one I knew that worked for the School Book Depository was Lee Oswald.” She spoke with Oswald every work day leading up to the assassination and the story she has to tell is in a word “stunning”. After 47 years of silence, her story answers so many questions about Lee Oswald and in turn, raises so many more… “He posed himself off as a single man” “Well, he was a character apparently. I found that out later. Many times he sat next to me (on the Beckley bus). And he invited me to communistic meetings that they were having in Dallas. I told him. “Whoa. No. I don’t want to go to that. I’m not a communist.” “Later on, he invited me to go to a party on Davis Street. Candy Barr’s party. Mary questioned him.” You go to strip joints?” No, he said but I have to go to that party to discuss something with someone. That someone, she confirms in a later statement, was Jack Ruby. “He was always inviting me to different things because I rode the bus with him and I also ate lunch with him but he ate off by himself.” Mary Hollies did not realize that Lee was a married man until she saw Marina and the kids on television that weekend. “I’m going back to Russia soon” In one conversation Oswald stated that he would be leaving Dallas to return to Russia. “ Yes he told me that he was coming into a lot of money and he would take me to Russia at his expense, and when I told him no I didn’t want to go to Russia, he said, “Well, I know you’re not happy here.” “But I thought…told him I’d think about it, you know (laughing). “Oh, you don’t have to worry. I’m going to shoot him anyway.” Mary Madeline Hollies Sixth Floor Museum says she rode with Oswald on the bus. "occasionally rode the same bus as Lee Harvey Oswald" Yet all her statements say she did not recognize him except on tv she saw him and said she had seen him in the lunchroom numerous times. Why no mention in her statements about having rode same bus as LHO? Seems important information. When was the last time she rode with him, to or from work? Was he living on Elsbeth or another apartment/house. Did they get on at the same stop? Off at same stop? Walk the same way? She lived near intersection of Elsbeth and W. Davis, is that the only connection? Was she pulling someones leg? Mary Hollies: The girl in the window For a number of years the Sixth Floor Museum has conducted an oral history project that interviews individuals and lets them explain how the JFK assassination affected their lives. In January 2011 the museum posted a conversation with Mary Hollies. Ms. Hollies was a young French Canadian that travelled from Montreal and landed a job in the Texas School Book Depository as an underpaid, inventory stock clerk with the Scott Foresman Company in June, 1963. Dallas was quite a change for her. She referred to it as “Hicksville” after leaving a cultural center like Montreal. At the time, Dallas was small, most of the individuals that she met were not forward thinking and the only form of public transportation was the bus. Every morning, she would take the Beckley Street bus downtown and disembark at the corner of Main and Houston. In the fall of 1963 Lee Oswald began riding the same bus to work and eventually the two struck up a friendship. When asked, Ms. Hollies stated “The only one I knew that worked for the School Book Depository was Lee Oswald.” She spoke with Oswald every work day leading up to the assassination and the story she has to tell is in a word “stunning”. After 47 years of silence, her story answers so many questions about Lee Oswald and in turn, raises so many more… “He posed himself off as a single man” “Well, he was a character apparently. I found that out later. Many times he sat next to me (on the Beckley bus). And he invited me to communistic meetings that they were having in Dallas. I told him. “Whoa. No. I don’t want to go to that. I’m not a communist.” “Later on, he invited me to go to a party on Davis Street. Candy Barr’s party. Mary questioned him.” You go to strip joints?” No, he said but I have to go to that party to discuss something with someone. That someone, she confirms in a later statement, was Jack Ruby. “He was always inviting me to different things because I rode the bus with him and I also ate lunch with him but he ate off by himself.” Mary Hollies did not realize that Lee was a married man until she saw Marina and the kids on television that weekend. “I’m going back to Russia soon” In one conversation Oswald stated that he would be leaving Dallas to return to Russia. “ Yes he told me that he was coming into a lot of money and he would take me to Russia at his expense, and when I told him no I didn’t want to go to Russia, he said, “Well, I know you’re not happy here.” “But I thought…told him I’d think about it, you know (laughing). “Oh, you don’t have to worry. I’m going to shoot him anyway.” “There were several of us ladies that went down there (second floor breakroom) to eat. We would brown bag it because we didn’t make much money back in those days. Some of the ladies were discussing Kennedy coming to Dallas. And some of them didn’t approve of a Catholic president. Can you imagine this? Anyway, Lee popped up and said “Oh you don’t have to worry. I’m gonna shoot him anyway.” (There’s a discontinuity here. She said Oswald ate alone.) None of us believed that and we just hushed him up. Said, Oh you’re just running your mouth. You’re not going to do anything.” “We really didn’t believe him but time proved otherwise, as you know. Look what he did.” Lee Goes Fishing On the day of the assassination We saw Lee on the freight elevator with something in his hand. “It was a brown paper package and it was as tall as him. Dorothy Garner asked him what was in the package. And he said. “fishing rods!” “She just kind of laughed and said Oh? You plan to go fishing today? Oswald did not reply and continued his ride on the elevator. The Big Event Mary Hollies didn’t have an office or even a corner to call her own. She was given a cart to stock books in a caged in area on the fourth floor. She noted. “Floor five and six were all storage, warehouse. It was all open. It had wooden floors. You could hear the sound very easily, especially through the elevator shaft” “I spent a lot of time on the 4th and 5th floors. When it was announced that the president was near, “Alice (Foster) and I said “let’s go up to the fifth floor”. We rang for the elevator and Lee was on the elevator but he didn’t stop for us. He kept going. So we were kind of miffed with him, and we hollered up the shaft. “Hey, you could’ve stopped for us. But he kept on going to the sixth floor, and then he locked the elevator up. When we finally got to the 5th floor we opened a window and we were sitting on the window ledge and we heard clack..clank..clank..and someone was coming down the noisy elevator. It was a black dude coming down (Bonnie Ray Williams). We went to the window and sat there. We had the perfect place to watch.” (Some researchers believe that Mary Hollies was on the 4th floor but she insists that she was on the 5th floor and later moved to the 4th) We could see the president and Jackie coming down Houston and then…. we thought a cannon had gone off. We saw the president slump and we saw Jackie getting on the back of the car. She was hysterical. “I believe it was three shots, two or three. It was definitely not one.” “Alice noticed some smoke over on the little hill that was there. She saw smoke over there but I don’t know that it was a gun being fired. I don’t know what it was. Every one was going crazy. “Like a chicken with its head cut off.” When did you first realize that Oswald might be involved? “It occurred to me going home on the bus with him.” A bus that was practically empty. She had been interviewed by the FBI and Secret Service and was released to go home. “As I was waiting at the stop and I got on, Oswald was running to get the bus. He sat right behind me and when he did I realized, oh my God, he did this. (This is problematic for a number of reasons) Mary Hollies later heard the story of a women claiming to be on the bus with Lee after the shooting ( Mary Bledsoe) . Ms Hollies does not believe that this woman was being honest because the bus was nearly empty and she did not see another woman on board. Stephen Fagin, the director of the oral history program, asked Mary why her original police statement was so understated and why she had intentionally denied any knowledge of Oswald outside of work. “I was terrified because I was not a citizen of this country. “ “I was hiding a lot of information.” So she was fibbing or senile. She gets out the TSBD at 2:30 about 45 minutes after LHO is arrested in the TT. Why was she spouting such bs for an oral history?

Thanks Jim, I still don't see New York vs. Dallas. Everything Mysterious Marge did in New York could have been done in Dallas to provide cover for a possible Soviet investigation. She and Oswald remain in New York for over a year after leaving John Pic and the Fuhrman household. If she was looking to give the Oswalds similar cultural experiences, in other words have Lee experience the diversity that Harvey had prior to 1947 might be reasonable. This line of reasoning would have the Oswald Project beginning as a defection program. This is in tune with the research on Allen Dulles and Frank Wisner's, who very well could be the OSS (later CIA) founders of the project, offensive philosophy towards the Soviet Union as we have discussed earlier in another thread. I have no evidence for this, but just speculation at this point. So, don't go off on this speculation as a threat to the Harvey and Lee story. The boys, Harvey and Lee, may have been rebelling at their fate in life. Boys usually begin rebelling about something at that age. My speculation is that Harvey was trying to get out of his circumstances and had to be taken back to New York and have the people who raised him there do a re-conditioning of his mind set. It's a dumb idea, but one that keeps surfacing. That's because I still can't see why the sojourn in New York.

Thanks Tracy, That sounds reasonable. But, once she was tossed out of the Fuhrman household why would she continue to stay in New York? I had read somewhere she went to New York to obtain testing on Oswald. Perhaps mental or personality testing?

A Movie deal? That might be a good idea to reawaken interest, national interest in the Kennedy assassination again. Oliver Stone or someone of the same rep does Harvey and Lee in a manner such as the Stone movie. Wouldn't that get the debate going again in a big way? Can't you see the screaming media headlines proclaiming that who ever produced or directed the movie were telling outrageous lies and bending reality? Maybe Gary Oldman would come back and play an older Oswald hiding out in Hungary or some place for years who finally decides to tell the truth.

Thanks James, For your clarification. I will keep that in mind.

Isn't this the same kind of false reasoning assigned to Jim Hargrove? A question that has always bothered me about Marguerite Oswald is why she went to New York and stayed for a year and half or whatever time she and Oswald were there. The reasons given in most accounts don't make sense to me. What did New York have that Dallas didn't? If you can respond and then Jim Hargrove also I would very much appreciate the response.