John Butler

There are more names suggested by Forum Members: John Hunt Cliff Varnell David Talbot Doug Horne Michael Chesser Walt Brown Ed Tatro- The JFK Conference The Big Event. Edgar F. Tatro is one of the pre-eminent experts on the Kennedy Assassination. Greg Burnham Vincent Salandria Peter Dale Scott E. Martin Schotz Anna Marie Kuhns Walko Jerry Rose Gary Shaw Wallace Milam Debra Conway Malcolm Blunt Rex Bradford Bill Simpich Bob Dorff Stu Wexler

Cliff, I don't recognize E. Martin Schotz. Could you give a brief statement on his research.

Steve, I don't know these two ladies. Could you give a brief account of their work?

Thanks for posting this. I don't know Ed Tatro. Could you give a brief account of his work.

Right. That's why I started this list. I couldn't think of all the good and worthy people that need to be on it. For instance when I listed Bart Kamp I should have remembered Malcom Blunt. I don't recognize some of the names of this list, but will post them with others on your recommendation. One of the things I wanted to do was put together a list of good researchers that someone new, such as myself, could use to look up and see what they had to say. I have been doing JFK research for a very few years, 4 years.

I don't know Michael Chesser. Just for my education could you give a brief statement on him. I will add the other names to my list and post. I know this is not much recognition for the good work, hard work, and effort of the people listed, but it is my attempt to say something about these people who have tried to bring us the truth.

No worries, mate. Cliff Varnell is a stand up,straight forward researcher. I don't agree with him on certain things, but that is not important when it comes to research. In certain areas that I have commented on almost everyone disagrees with some of the things I have said. Yes. Whether you agree with her or not she had the courage to bring her controversial (to some) story to the public. Someone brought up Gerald Posner. I can't give that guy any kind of good word. There is a difference between people like Baker and Posner.

I found the info on Helen Kaminski and Emil Kardos marriage through a genealogy site. I believe the Doppelganger Emil Kardos is No. 2. I suggested this earlier, but discounted it. The reason for discounting this double marriage idea is there are records of Dorothy Adehofer and Emil Kardos up to 1955 in New Rochelle, NY. David Joseph has where Harvey was well tracked and documented during this time period in this Excel timeline of Harvey and Lee. His first record of Harvey is a school entry for July 7, 1947 at the Benbrook school in San Saba, TX. I don't understand Mr. Armstrong's remark about not knowing where Harvey was living between 1947 and 1952. This was before the Red Scare era. Ruby was not a communist, so this must be an FBI activity, or possibly an OSS/FBI operation. I believe that there was more cooperation between the two agencies than is admitted. During this period they were supposed to be in conflict/competition. At a later time (the Red Scare era) Ruby was recommended by I think LBJ efforts to work for Richard Nixon. The recommendation to work for Richard Nixon may have been based on this commie activity in 1943. According two your link to Ruby info he also worked for the drug enforcement people. Even going back this far to the early 1940s and 1943 Ruby was a government agent. And, an important one. Jack Ruby was more than a wannabe thug and gangster. He was a mid-level fixer and enforcer for various mob folks.

Here are some names listed by members: Gaeton Fonzi John Newman Sylvia Meagher Mae Brussell Anthony Summers Cyril Wecht Penn Jones Robert Tanenbaum and others I have thought of: Robert Groden David Lifton L. Fletcher Prouty Oliver Stone Harold Weisberg Judith Baker William Weston and some folks on the Forum: David Josephs John Kowalski Bart Kamp Jim DiEugenio Please list other worthy folks. I have noticed nobody from the other side has made the list.

I recently posted on Jack White and Jim Marrs being my heroes of the Kennedy Research effort. I would like to add to the list: Jim Garrison Mark Lane John Armstrong and Jim Hargrove The 2003 Fetzner Symposium: James Fetzner Jack White John Costella David Healey Scott Lederer David Mantik I have left out many good and able men and women who have contributed to our understanding of the Kennedy Assassination. If possible could you add more names to this list?

As far as I know Marguerite Claverie just disappears. I'm not certain of the time period, but Jim should be able to provide. I read somewhere, but can't quote where, that the real Marguerite said she was going to disappear. I'm not certain of this. I'm just recalling this as something I read.

So, one can still say that Doppelgander by Schimmer is still the best book for an easy read on Harvey and Lee.

Keep up the good work. I, like Jim, will be interested in your obtaining those notes if possible.

Jack White is one of my heroes. But, he had feet of clay. Some of the things he knew and didn't say until later leaves me with reservations. Why didn't he speak about Bothun and Altgens earlier. Jim Marrs is another I consider a hero. He wrote a book on Aliens in which the data was mostly witness interviews of abductions and such. The book was not at all like Crossfire. As far as fake moon landings, there are far more people who are disposed to believe that than one would think. Marrs and White approached their subjects critically. But, all they did was set themselves up for ridicule and disbelief in other areas by the propagandists of the Lone Nut variety.

There is a possibility of 3 young Emils in their 30s. We have in 1940-1941 Census and marriage indexes the following: 1. Emil Gardos and wife Grace, Grace Blair- Married abt. 1934 2. Emil Kardos and wife Dorothy, Dorothy Adelhofer- Married 1941 (No. 2) 3. Emil Kardos and wife Helen, Helen Kaminski- Married 1941 (No.3 ?) Emil No. 2 is in the 1940 Census. We didn't find a second one, No. 3, in the 1940 Census. At one time the name Emil seems to have been popular about the turn of the 20th Century. But, altogether not that popular over time. Being popular around the turn of the last century would give us more Emils born around 1900 to about 1915. The two Emils I am sure of were born around 1905. I would of thought Emil was a popular name for folks of Slavic, perhaps Jewish descent. Two Hungarian immigrants name Emil Kardos/Gardos coming to the US in roughly the same time is suspicious if one really hasn't done a lot of genealogy work. The possibility of someone having the same name in the same area is common through out time and place in genealogy. Yorkville was not a small village or even a small town. And, probably not a small city. Popularity Over Time: How Many Boys Have Been Named Emil This chart illustrates how many Boys were named Emil in the U.S. since 1880. A few facts about the boy's name Emil: Records indicate that 28,501 boys in the United States have been named Emil since 1880. The possibility of a 3rd Emil is based on the marriage of Emil Kardos and Helen Kaminski. I don't at this time have any info on this Emil except the marriage record. I suppose Emil Kardos No.2 could have married two women in one year. It's possible. I've had the wife look at this and she found nothing to relate to a third Emil. I suppose some of the things I have credited to the Emil No. 2 could fit Emil No. 3, but I don't think so. Best conclusion on this is two Emil Kardos. Emil Gardos (originally Kardos) and the other, No. 2, Emil Kardos. And, there is no connection between the two is the most likely conclusion. This is based on No. 2 making no waves in Communist Yorkville even though he live very close to the Yorkville Club.

Possibly. I still have not found any as good at matching the Tippit teletype as Emil, Grace, and Fred. But, it is a good idea to keep looking because if true this makes 3 Emil Kardos/Gardos in their 30s in 1940 in NYC, Yorkville. Communists and Yorkville fit the Tippit Teletype. So, any Kardos/Gardos will need to be a Hungarian immigrant and have info or an attachment to communism. He will need a son, married or not, about the same age as our duo of Harvey and Lee. The Emil that married Dorothy Adelhofer said he was a furrier at 18 years of age. Ben Gold, a radical communist, was head of the Furriers and Leather Workers union at about the same time. Later he becomes a machine operator and gives up being a furrier. Based on my experience when going to college in Bowling Green, Ky, I was always getting a call that should have went to the other two. And vice versa. The other John R. Butler was an ambulance driver and I was always getting calls during the middle of the night. Bowling Green, Ky is a much smaller place then Yorkville, NYC. So, we can keep looking for more info. Because of Russ Geck the info on the Emil/Grace family didn't work out as we thought it might.

Thanks for bringing this up. I thought I looked on Amazon and the price was something like $45. But, looking at it again the price was $2.43 so I bought a copy. Jim recommended 3 books and so far I have found Doppelganger a good choice. I'll check out this and post later.

Chris, I had to look at the Z 280 frame to see what you were talking about. Exactly. The South Knoll would be the place if Connally was shot at Z280 and not at about Z225 when Kennedy is first shot according to Zapruder. The shot would have to narrowly miss Nellie. That is about the only reasonable suggestion that I have heard for shooting from the South Knoll. The figures here look like cut outs. How easy would it be to fake this scene? Could use something like this? I'm not much of a computer artist, but this would be better done by a professional film editor. All you would have to do is fill in the appropriate film scene from another film or from an earlier part of the film such as the Zapruder Gap. If you just stuck to doing this then editing the whole film would not take that long for a team of film editors. The motorcade was probably filmed from the first and second floor of buildings all along the motorcade route. There would be plenty of film available for replacement scenes if mobile TV cameras were used that would transmit the data back to a central location. Say, such as a big truck parked at the Dal-Tex or some other location along the route. If anything like this happened then how trustworthy would any analysis be?

Jim, Even though I don't think much of the format of Doppelganger, it is a good book. It is one that can be recommended as an easier read. Schwimmer does cover the major points and conflicts. You noted earlier that you had reservations on certain minor and major points. That's not a problem. People see thinks differently and the subject is huge and complex. For every concept in Harvey and Lee there is a detractor who says nonsense. Superficially, some make sense. It's like the Warren Commission. If you accept their facts without further digging then Oswald killed Kennedy. OBTW, you have to ignore all of the conflicts and inconstancies in the WC report also. As I said I only noted one problem with the book's information. I think this problem arises from the way most people have little experience with and know how genealogy research works. I scanned through the rest and didn't see anything that jumped out. His use of Judith Baker for the New Orleans story might offend some from what I have read in this forum. It didn't bother me. The book would be good for someone who has just developed an interest in the Kennedy Assassination. For one who knows little about the subject it is a good start that will eventually take you to more complex information such as Harvey and Lee. It fits your recommendation.

John K, Doppleganger is a pro-Harvey and Lee book. Jim says there are minor and major errors according to Harvey and Lee. But, most everyone makes errors that other folks note when dealing with Oswald and the Kennedy Assassination. I don't think anyone has the whole story or the same story depending on their info. I agree with Harvey and Lee not a 100% but, say like 99.5%. I do have some reservations on some things that I have mentioned from time to time. An example would be I believe Harvey and Lee were both in Russia at one time. This idea is frowned upon citing data with Lee being in Florida, Cuba, New York, and New Orleans while Harvey was in Russia. In one of the Russian photos I believe it is Lee Marina is hugging rather than Harvey. Another example is the radar school photo. That graduation photo must be of Harvey. But, I believe it is not. The photo is of Lee altered to be Harvey since Harvey has to be the one seen. John Armstrong makes an excellent case for Harvey Oswald being at the radar school a week after Lee. Lee is there onn May 4th and Harvey on May 13th. So, they were both there. Both would have graduation photos. Lee's photo would be destroyed and Harvey's kept for the record. I don't know why Lee's photo was the one used and had to be used in an altered form. This conclusion of mine is disputed by others. But, in any graduation photo we must see Harvey and no one else. John, I think you are right. Jim says it is an easier format to read and that may be its biggest attraction. I think he makes the WC conflicts easier to understand, but that's just me. Schwimmer didn't get the Gardos/Kardos information right. Others have made the same mistake. It was not until we got on the case that the correct information became available.

As I indicated earlier I did not read this with any depth of thought. I just scanned through and didn't see anything that caught my attention. Yeah. Particularly, if there is a second young Emil Kardos in the neighborhood. Or, is Emil Kardos a common name for Hungarians? For instance, when I lived in Bowling Green Ky going to school there in the early 70s there were many Butlers in town. There was 3 John Butlers there with 2 John R. Butlers. Butler is a fairly common name. At one time there were 65,000 Butler families in the US. Could Emil Kardos be the same kind of common name. Don't know, just guessing. I couldn't find anything on the Emil Kardos, father and son. Other than the 1940 census and marriage records. There is no way to say communists one way or the other.

I like the Harvey and Lee Menace notion.

There may be a second young Emil Kardos lurking out there. Here is the marriage record for Emil Kardos and Helen Kaminski 1941: And, There is another record for a marriage license for Emil Kardos and Dorothy Adelhofer in 1941. She was his fiancée. There is a later record for Emil Kardos and wife Dorothy in 1955 living in New Rochelle, Ny.

I didn't like his format. It seemed childish. But, I have to say he made many of the connections that most Harvey and Lee folks do. And, he mentions many of the situations that conflict with the WC official story. After going back and reading more I thought he did ok. I didn't find any other glaring mistakes. There may be some there but I didn't look closely. The one about Emil Kardos is simply wrong. The key to understanding who Emil Gardos was is the brother in law. Which Schwimmer didn't mention that much. The father and son Emil Kardos did not make any waves to be recorded. At least it is hard to find anything about them. He uses the Judith Baker story for the story in NO. I thought most folks don't care much for Judith Baker. I read Me and Lee some years ago and found it to be fairly believable. The only problem I had with the book was there was no photos of Me and Lee. Harvey was a camera guy and took photos all the time. Why no Judith? Married guy doesn't want to leave a record of his infidelity? Another problem I saw with the book was who was the Me and Lee Lee Oswald? Was it Harvey or Lee Oswald that Judith consorted with? Judith claimed she had facial recognition problems. Would she be able to recognize the difference between Harvey and Lee. Surely, there would be other ways to recognize the two. But, what if she didn't? So, was she double teamed as Marina Oswald was? It is my opinion that Lee and Harvey were in NO at the same time moving in and out of the Lee Harvey Oswald role.

If you look at the data for the young Emil Kardos you will see that he doesn't qualify for the Emil Kardos (Gardos) in the Tippit Teletype. He does not get married until 1941 to Helen Kaminski. He has no children and is living with his father in 1940. He won't pickup a brother in law until he gets married. (new info Emil Kardos has a fiancée in 1940. She is Dorothy Adelhofer. There is no other info available.) He's living in the right place (Yorkville). But, we have no known communist associations at this point. He is a machine shop laborer. At this point that's about all we know. I'm currently trying to find more info on these Kardos. Emil Gardos along with Louis Weinstock were mid to upper level communists leaders in NYC (Gardos may have been higher ranking due to being an alleged NKVD agent). Emil Gardos has a brother in law, Fred Blair. Fred Blair is an upper level communist and at one time a Director in the CPUSA. The threesome, Gardos, Weinstock, and Blair may have been converted to FBI informants in the 1930s. They would have to be members of the Oswald Project/ OSS / CIA on loan from the FBI in order to raise Lee Harvey Oswald as indicated by the Tippit caller. Grace Gardos and son John were not allowed to return to the US. If she did she would have come under a FBI counterintelligence action. They didn't come back to the US because they couldn't. They didn't come back to the US due to the threat of the FBI conducting some action against them. This was 1966 and the idea was out their that Kennedy Assassination witnesses (including Oswald witnesses) were being executed by the government in large numbers. Grace Gardos knew what was going on whether her son John was a part of it or not. She may have helped raise Harvey for a short period of time. She would have to have known this being the wife of Emil Gardos, sister to Fred, and a reporter at the Daily Worker in contact with Louis Weinstock.