Linda Powell

I've read on this forum and in a couple of other places on the web that in 1994 Anthony Summers successfuly sued Donald Spoto in a case heard in England. The date of 28th March is mentioned and that the verdict was in Summers' favour. I've just had a search done of relevant legal libraries and cases and no such case has been found. Also I gather that Spoto was obliged to print a retraction of his allegations in future prints of his book on Marilyn, but I haven't tracked down a copy with this retraction. Does anyone have any other info on this case or the retraction which is mentioned? Thanks

David Please don't shout at me in your replies. This forum is for us all to express our opinions and I would add, mine is based on several years of research. Moreover it began from the standpoint that the notion of any involvement between RFK/MM, or his involvement in her death, was preposterous. That viewpoint has been increasingly difficult to maintain. I have not referred to Jefferies having given an 'eyewitness account' of Bobby killing Marilyn. I suggest you read, or re-read, what he actually said – and for that matter, what I've actually said - and avoid focussing on hyperbole from either Wolfe himself or from other sources. Jefferies did not 'see' what happened to Marilyn – he saw who arrived, who left, and the condition Marilyn was in a few minutes after RFK departed. Norman Jefferies may well have kept quiet for 30 years and quite frankly, I feel that many others would have done the same in the same circumstances – indeed it appears that many did. If he was telling the truth about what he saw, then he would have found it very difficult not to conclude that the Attorney General of the Unites States, the chief law enforcement officer in the land- and a Kennedy - had been party to a suspicious death. Who would go running to the police then? If he wasn’t telling the truth, what would have been the point of keeping quiet for 30 years, avoiding interviews for 30 years, then giving his statement when he was terminally ill? As to the absence of video evidence of his statement, ask Mr Wolfe, as it seems to chafe you considerably. By your criteria, the truth is not the truth unless it is recorded on video.

Hi Dawn I'm in the UK, so can only access US newspapers online. I do have the 'Something's Got to Give' you refer to, but it may be an edited version since there's no mention of Schipper's finding information in the way you describe. I obtained the video via Amazon.com about a year back. The question of whether she was about to expose the Kennedys is a difficult one and without authenticated documentary or recorded evidence will never satisfactorily be proved. I do recall that during the 1980's – possibly around 1983/4 – a programme was broadcast here which played an extract from a tape made at Peter Lawford's beach house which had recorded a playful conversation between MM and JFK. This was in the days long before my interest in the subject, so at the time it was only a tit-bit which I remember we all discussed at the office the next day. (If anyone out there remembers the documentary please let me know). The point of mentioning this however is that clearly there was at least some basis in truth to the claim that MM and JFK were being surveilled. If Marilyn did make tapes for Greenson then one question to be considered is when did she start and finish making the tapes. As far as I've been able to determine she most likely began making tapes in early May of 1962. I've read that she made only two for Greenson and some who knew her and knew about the tapes said that she would often tell the Doctor what she though he wanted to hear, that she would create fantasies. It's also said that she made some use of taping for her own purposes – you're probably familiar with Mickey Song's story that he found out (from RFK) after MM's death that she'd secretly taped a conversation with him. If she made no mention - on tape - of exposing the Kennedys, then she may have stopped making tapes for Greenson before any such decision was made. My own research suggests that her resolve to expose them was made only in the last few days before she died. You're probably also aware it's alleged that on the day after her death, before the house was closed off, men who were thought to be 'agents' were busy burning notes and documents in MM's fireplace. There was said to be a pile of tapes at the fireside, though no definite mention is made of them being burned. If RFK heard Mickey Song's recorded conversation with MM, then clearly at least that tape survived. I feel it's worth mentioning also, in respect of Mickey Song and others who claim knowledge of Marilyn, that there are often inconsistencies in their stories – or at least inconsistencies in how their stories are conveyed by researchers – which doesn't help to establish credibility or to clear the muddy waters. I've read the DiEugenio piece you referred to, which I found on the internet. If I've understood correctly the date when it was written, I would say that things have moved on a bit since 1997 – though there may be an updated version I've not found. DiEugenio is correct to question the salacious stories which have emerged about Kennedy since his murder and serious Kennedy researchers should do likewise. It seems to me though, that any author or researcher will either start from a certain perspective and be more inclined to believe evidence which supports their view, or will at some point be drawn toward a view and dismiss whatever doesn't support it. The Kennedys and Monroe are not issues on which one can comfortably sit on the fence and after much comparison of sources I've concluded that almost all authors will demonstrate their theories only by excluding evidence which runs counter to it. To return briefly to DiEugenio's piece, in respect of his comments on Judy Exner, I'd again refer interested persons to George Jacob's 'My Life with Mr S' in which he sheds some light on Judy and her relationships with JFK and Giancana. I'll close for now as long postings are always difficult to read. Finally though, you mention that you're doing research on MM/Kennedy brothers. Is it for a book/project, or just as an interesting subject? Regds Linda

David Thanks for the Cal-Neva feedback. Lucky you, going there so often - would love to see it for myself. Have you ever seen the guest bungalows? I believe that MM used to stay in number 52. Thanks Linda

Dawn No, I haven't seen the article you refer to. If you know of an on-line link to it I'd be glad to have it. Miner has occasionally put his head above the parapet to question the cause of Marilyn's death and over the last few years has made several mentions of the tapes. During the early 90's he gave a documentary interview in which he said that from Marilyn's tapes 'it could be inferred' that she'd had an affair with JFK, but that 'she was specific' about her affair with RFK. In later interviews he seems to have focused on her relationship with Dr Greenson and has either not mentioned the Kennedys or any comments have been edited out. I would add on a wider note re MM/RFK's alleged affair, that, having spent some considerable time comparing dates/times/places for them both, along with the various accounts of people who agree with or deny that they had an affair, I've concluded that any affair they did have was both extremely intense and very short-lived - no more than five weeks and possibly as short as three. Their friendship prior to that period had been growing for around 4 months and - it's claimed - became a kind of telephone courtship. The apparent brevity of any affair they had may account for the small number of people who claim to know about it. Linda

David Sorry for delay in replying. I thought I had my settings to notify me when the topic was activated, but obviously haven't. No, alas, I haven't been there and it's unlikely I'll have the opportunity. Do you know it well? Linda

As to the various tales of Marilyn's time at the Cal-Neva, interested persons might like to peruse 'My Life with Mr S' by Sinatra's former valet, George Jacobs (an entertaining book in its own right) which gives a new perspective and which has a lot of Marilyn content; also 'Sinatra: The Untold Story' by Michael Munn. The latter gives a more detailed account of that weekend and Giancana's role there. Munn's book I have to say isn't especially well-written and by his own admission is reliant on statements given to him by a drunken Lawford; Ava Gardner and Sammy Davis Jnr, along with ol' blue eyes himself are among others who talk about the Marilyn matter. It appears to be an honest recollection of what they said to the author when he was a young shaver, and does indeed fill in a few gaps, but should be interpreted with caution.

Well, it's a long time since I've been on the board – a few months in fact and I'm surprised to see there's been so much interest in MM's death, a topic which I hoped would bear fruit last year but didn't seem to get going. The reason I've been away from the board so long is because I've been working on my book about MM's death and I've been interested to see what's been said here. Wolfe's book seems to have become for many a definitive account of Marilyn's death, but while it has some vital content – the Norman Jefferies statements being the pearl in the oyster - some of it should be approached with caution as he seems prone to inaccuracies, particularly where dates are concerned. Time spent cross-referencing with FBI docs and other resources (though I know that FBI docs are not always accurate) show him to be generally about a week out with some of his dates. So far I've found he's inaccurately conveyed the content of one FBI memo and one passage from another book. There may be others but I haven't checked yet. I feel I should restate what I said many moons ago on this site, which was to the effect that without an intense study of the sources available and of the interactions and motivations of Marilyn and her familiars during those last few months, theories about who did it, if anybody did it and why, are prone to flaws. I've formed my own opinions about who was responsible for her death, but it's taken me five years to do it. Not that I'm slow, you understand, just careful …

John - I noted your comment: In reality, Monroe had been killed to implicate the Kennedy brothers in murder. At the time, the murderers must have been confident that JFK would be ousted from power. I'd be interested to know on what sources or on what information you base this statement. Thanks

Certainly the contents seem too good to be true. However, at a more mundane level, the first thing that struck me was the style of the document. The writer has used a fully blocked style, ie, no indentation on the first line of typing and - though I may be wrong - this style was not adopted in the US until the mid/late seventies. I had a look on the CIA FOIA site and pulled out some random documents from around March '64 and found the style of typing was still using first line indent, but maybe someone on the board has more knowledge of the styles used by the CIA and could shed light on this?

Yes, the press did know about JFK's affairs – or at least some of them and his relationship with Marilyn Monroe was known about. As to why they kept quiet about it and why it didn't create a scandal – the simplest answer is that the US press in the 1960's were disinclined to expose a sitting president. It's difficult to imagine in our current society that any presidential scandal would have been ignored – the Clinton/Lewinsky debacle being a good demonstration of how the press deal with scandal today. You might like to read pgs 106-110 of Seymour Hersh's 'The Dark Side of Camelot'. These pages refer to a journalist, James Bacon, who had been told by Marilyn herself about her affair with JFK, yet he didn't file the story because 'reporters just didn't go into that sort of thing'. Page 106 onward refers also to an episode when a citizen by the name of Florence M Kater attempted numerous times, from 1959, to expose Kennedy's womanising. In a nutshell, Kater had rented a room in her home to one Pamela Turnure, who worked as an aide in Kennedy's senate office. When she realised that (the then Senator) Kennedy was conducting an affair with Turnure she photographed him leaving the latter's apartment in the early hours. She wrote to numerous newspaper editors, and the link herewith http://www.thesmokinggun.com/jfk/debaucher1.html will take you to an FBI document from 1961 which refers to the picture. Kater even had the picture enlarged and mounted on a placard, then protested outside the White House, but all to no avail. The story is in itself perhaps amusing, but it also demonstrates the reluctance that editors felt in exposing a sitting president, and moreover, one who was a member of one of the wealthiest and most powerful families in America at that time.

John - as you're probably aware there are numerous books examining the Monroe death, but if you haven't already read them, I'd recommend you get Robert Slatzer's 'The Life and Curious Death of Marilyn Monroe'. This was published in the 70's and copies are hard to find (try Amazon). Cut through the sentimental dross therein and go to page 313 and read the interview with 'Jack Quinn'. Also get Donald H Wolfe's 'The Assassination of Marilyn Monroe', published 1998 which I believe is still in print. Wolfe isn't a particularly good writer and his style jumps about - one minute he's doing the usual bio of Marilyn (films, husbands etc) and the next he's back at the scene of her death, but if you extract the relevant stuff it amounts to no more than a few pages. See the interview Wolfe did with Norman Jeffries, the son-in-law of Eunice Murray, Marilyn's housekeeper. I'm familiar with the document you refer to but the cause of MM's death, along with the chain of circumstances which led to it, cannot be evaluated on the basis of a hoax report. There is a great deal of published material to read on the subject and as part of my own research it's been necessary to make detailed studies and comparisons of such works, including works on the Kennedy family, Sinatra, Lawford, Giancana and Hoover. Some are simply regurgitations of the findings of other researchers, many provide contradictory information, but there is wheat amongst the chaff and the MM/RFK scenario should neither be accepted nor rejected without a thorough evaluation of available resources and a rounded picture of the characters and their interactions. I have also used FBI documents in my research, but these equally must be approached with caution as they sometimes contain errors and contradictions. Therefore, your question about RFK's motive would require a much longer answer than seems fair to post on this forum. I will say though, that Hoover's dislike of RFK, in my opinion, would be tempered by his desire for control. He never needed to expose anyone. The real value of what he knew about others – or what they thought he might know - lay in the power it gave him to blackmail and manipulate. As to whether or not there was a diary – the main sources for this are Robert Slatzer and Jeanne Carmen (MM's pal) and I'm aware that the credibility of both these individuals has been questioned. My own feelings are that if there was a diary it alone was insufficient to motivate a murder and I have concluded that there were other factors involved. Just as some might suggest that the Bay of Pigs was the writing on the wall for JFK, my opinion is that the sequence of events which led to MM's death began in February 1962 in Mexico. Like the JFK assassination, the MM/RFK angle tends to polarize opinions and for some the notion of RFK being party to murder is unacceptable. Incidentally, a couple of years ago I outlined a dramatized version of the MM/RFK scenario to the BBC but they rejected it because they felt it was 'too controversial' and were concerned that legal action might be taken against them by the Kennedy family.

John, as per your advice, herewith my topic starter repeated from the History board. * * * This has been somewhat of a hot topic since the mid-sixties and it shows no signs of cooling. Opinion in general these days leans toward the theory that RFK engineered her death and was present at the time of it. There are some however, who feel that Marilyn's death was an attempt to frame RFK and various names have been put forward over the years as culprits for this. The mob in particular have been named as likely suspects because of RFK's crackdown on their activities and because of Joe and Jack Kennedy's reneging on alleged electoral promises to Giancana. A number of researchers, most notably perhaps Donald H Wolfe and Robert Slatzer, have concluded that RFK was involved, though there are inconsistencies in their published research which have led some to conclude that they have been selective in presenting their findings or have been subjective in interpretation. I'd be interested in opinions on this topic.

This has been somewhat of a hot topic since the mid-sixties and it shows no signs of cooling. Opinion in general these days leans toward the theory that RFK engineered her death and was present at the time of it. There are some however, who feel that Marilyn's death was an attempt to frame RFK and various names have been put forward over the years as culprits for this. The mob in particular have been named as likely suspects because of RFK's crackdown on their activities and because of Joe and Jack Kennedy's reneging on alleged electoral promises to Giancana. A number of researchers, most notably perhaps Donald H Wolfe and Robert Slatzer, have concluded that RFK was involved, though there are inconsistencies in their published research which have led some to conclude that they have been selective in presenting their findings or have been subjective in interpretation. I'd be interested in opinions on this topic.

Hi John - I've done a great many Google and other searches for Slatzer and I've also e-mailed a good number of Marilyn fan sites to see if they can provide a contact for him, but none of the sites have ever replied. I've also searched the US phone directories on line but zero there as well. As far as I can gather he's still in Hollywood working as a screen writer, but he's not listed on any of the screenwriter's sites I've found, nor is he on any yellow page listings. If you happen to turn up any lead I'd be grateful to know of it. Thanks

Eugene Brading is alleged to have been present at both assassinations. He was arrested in the Dal-Tex building after the murder of JFK (see posting on this site 'Braden? Maybe not') and is suspected by some of having been at the shooting of RFK, disguised as a police officer, and standing behind him when he was shot. RFK's head wound as you may know, was said by Coroner Thomas Noguchi, to have been fired from behind at point blank range.

Link herewith to the Dallas Municipal Archives which has available on line its records relating to the assassination. http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/index.html

In relation to the Brading/Harber photo's, I found a link which also shows photographic comparisons of other suspects, including Hemmings. The link is apparently an extract from an article published in Oct 2000 in 'JFK Deep Politics quarterly'. I don't know if this link has already been given elsewhere on the forum, but here it is anyway. http://www.memresearch.org/econ/faces/familiar_faces.htm

A few years back, when the 'Johnson Tapes' were first released, they showed that a conversation with J Edgar Hoover was recorded on 27th November 1963 at 9.47 pm, part of which I transcribe below: Johnson: How many shots were fired? Two? Hoover: Three. Johnson: Any of 'em fired at me? Hoover: No, all three at the President, and we have 'em. The third shot tore a large part of the President's head off, and we have that and we have the gun here also. And we also have tested the fact that you can fire those three shots in three seconds. Johnson: Were they aiming at the President? Hoover: They were aiming directly at the President, there's no question about that. Given that this is the director of the FBI informing the President, it may be reasonable to assume that Hoover had some basis for his claims (though I'm aware that Hoover's credibility has not stood the test of time). According to Hoover therefore, the FBI were in possession of all three bullets and had successfully tested the gun. I note from this exchange that Johnson asks were 'they' aiming at the President, but it's not clear if he meant 'they' the bullets or 'they' the gunmen. As I understand it, the only complete bullet found was the controversial 'Magic Bullet' found at Parkland Hospital and no intact bullet was recovered from the President's brain. Hoover in his attempt to appear efficient may of course have been referring to the shell cases found on the sixth floor, but he does seem to be quite specific in his mention of the bullet that hit Kennedy in the head. Any thoughts or further information from anyone on the above transcript?

I'd like to find a contact address or e-mail address for Robert F Slatzer, author of two books about Marilyn (The Life and Curious Death of Marilyn Monroe and The Marilyn Files). Can anyone help me with this? I'm researching material for a book about Marilyn's last few months and her relationships with John and Robert Kennedy during that time, so if anyone wishes to post on this subject please do.

Nancy – thank you for your reply. Your suggestion that Mary Jo's death was used to keep EMK out of the Presidential race is very interesting and I recall that there was similar speculation at the time of the tragedy. Has there been much research into this angle?

Thank you Mark. I'll see if I can obtain a copy. Linda

John – glad you found the Kopechne link of interest and I agree with your observations about things seeming somewhat awry. Dredging my memory banks (which yet again fail to provide precise answers!) I recall a TV documentary shown in the UK some years back – I guess perhaps 15 years or so – which is the only one I've ever seen that looked into the anomalies surrounding EMK's version of the Chappaquidick incident. In particular I recall a detective who said he'd interviewed an elderly couple who were staying at the same hotel as EMK and were at breakfast (on the terrace I think) the morning after the incident. They recalled seeing EMK coming out to the tables, with a relaxed air about him and being intercepted by two men who hastily informed him of something which was not overhead by the couple. They told the detective that EMK's reaction was one of utter astonishment and they felt he was being informed of something of a serious nature, whereupon he quickly left accompanied by the men. The detective who took their statement was certain it was genuine. Of course, EMK might have staged the incident, but I wonder if anyone else recalls that documentary, or has heard of this couple's statement from another source?

Wim - I feel it's unlikely that Giancana was involved in Monroe's death, despite the claims made in 'Double Cross' by Sam Giancana Jnr. You may be familiar with Donald H Wolfe's 'The Assassination of Marilyn Monroe' (UK title) in which he refers to eye witness testimony given by Norman Jeffries (the son-in-law of Eunice Murray, Marilyn's housekeeper). For me and many others I feel, his is the most compelling statement to emerge and explains much that was previously missing or confusing from the statements of others. It is clear from his account that RFK and two other men, who were later identified as 'security officers' from LAPD, were responsible for the lethal injection of barbiturate given to Monroe. You're probably also familiar with Fred Otash and his (as far as I know) consistent accounts of hearing the tape recorded violent quarrel between MM and RFK on the day she died. Robert Slatzer is of course well known for his investigation into MM's death and his 'The Life and Curious Death of Marilyn Monroe' offers compelling evidence for RFK's personal involvement in her death and at no point do the mafia feature in the death scenario. I haven't been able to get a copy of his second book on the subject 'The Marilyn Files' despite strenuous efforts on my part, so until I've read it I can't say if he continued to believe that RFK was involved in her death. Marilyn's alleged pregnancies are often cited as a source of tension between her and JFK/RFK and it's said - though I don't know what the evidence is - that she had had a number of abortions throughout her life. For my book, I'm researching specific dates in order to build up the fullest possible picture of where she and the two Kennedy brothers were and what they were doing between February and August 1962. So far, though there are many gaps yet to be filled, I've not found any suggestion of pregnancy during this period. Of course if I should find any convincing evidence for such I will include it in my assessment of events. Your suggestion that Giancana had 'the goods' on RFK may well be correct if he had a copy of the tapes made by Otash et al. It's believed that RFK was behind the seizure of tapes made by both Otash and Spindel, but it's also believed that Hoffa was among those who had tape recordings. There's been speculation in the past about why Hoffa didn't expose any incriminating evidence he had against RFK, but perhaps when viewed in the context of the JFK assassination and both RFK's and the Kennedy family's apparent acceptance of the lone-nut theory, it makes sense. I'll leave it here for now, as I don't want to take up room on this forum and would like to start a separate one for Marilyn under 'History'. Thanks

We're all familiar with this picture which shows the secret service car passing in front of the Book Depository Building. Years ago, when I first saw this photo, I wasn't aware that the two agents were thought to be responding to the sound of a gunshot. I thought they were both turning and looking at the figure in the doorway who was later identified as Billy Lovelady and wondered therefore if they knew that Oswald was supposed to be inside the building and were startled to see what appeared to be him looking out at the motorcade. Some years back I contacted L Fletcher Prouty through his website forum and put this idea to him. To my surprise, I received an individual reply, via his mediator (Len Osanic, who has posted on this site somewhere) which I quote: "She is another good contact who sent me deep into the files and I feel that I still owe her something. I have two books that are valuable and rare: a) 'Report of the President's special review board' also known as the 'U Tower Committee' of Feb 26 1987; and secondly 'The CIA Under Harry Truman' … Cold War Records. If she is interested, they may be acquired from 'The History Staff, Center for the Study of Central Intelligence. It is for sale by the Superintendent of Documents. These are both well worth having." Unfortunately I never did get the opportunity to follow up on his recommendations, or to contact him again before his death. My questions to the board are 1) what are the thoughts of other members about the agents in the Altgens photo and 2) has anybody read the books which Prouty recommended? If so, how do they relate to my speculation on the Altgens photo?