Ryan Crowe

Add the initial stories about Oswald being arrested in the balcony and the one where Oswald was arrested and dragged out the back door as witnessed by Bernard Haire, and I believe we have nowhere near the truth about what happened when Oswald was arrested.

Hi James, Very interesting to see Hemming's name on this list, I wonder how his name got on this list? Maybe it has something to do with Hall and Aguilar, If I remember correctly wasnt Aguilar working both sides of the fence?

Pat makes some good points with Connelly's actions, maybe he was told someone was just going to come up out of the crowd and shoot the President ...Someone like DCM.... His comment "They are going to kill us all" could be looked at as the first thing that went threw his mind after nobody walked up and shot the president and rifle shots instead of handgun shots are going off. Maybe he felt he was double crossed and he himself was going to die if need be, as long as they got the president. He lives and counts his blessings, he isnt going to say anything as to who "THEY" are, as it just put the scare of death in him that they killed the president and if he doesnt shut up he will be next. Just food for thought after reading Pat's post.

Here is another of Bartholomew's articles on the Rambler etc. that I found interesting. http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...e/rambler4.html

In part 3 I found this interesting, its about the latin man Craig saw driving the Rambler..... Does anyone know which photo this is??

Most of the time smoke is caused by oil left in the barrel of a rifle after one cleans it, I have seen many times shooters forget to run a dry patch before shooting. Also there are powders that are very "dirty". Just the other day I was shooting one of my 1911's and was shooting wad cutters that a buddy had worked up for me for comp shooting, these are light loads at about 190 grains compared to the norm 230 grain, After the first shot it looked like I was shooting black powder LOL Did I get some strange looks from fellow shooters. ......Man that stuff was dirty, powder was AA5, weight was 6.6, grain 190 with magma wad cutters, had to run a bore snake through it every 40 rounds or so, but it was very accurate ammo

Another is Bernard Barker, With Weitzman saying he was the man with the SS I'D behind the picket fence.

William Seymour is another, since his testimony was never made public for some strange reason .

Hi James, Thanks buddy as always, they sure do look alot alike and I would have to agree, same guy. James, remember dont call them names LOL..... Ryan

Oh for gods sake post the picture Shanet, If you can post the picture that would be awsome, Has any researchers tried to contact John Liggets ex wife or other relatives for further research on this ?, or was there story pretty much told and nothing more to tell?

If that is not Malcom Ligget in the photo, my question is, did the history channel even investigate this story, or did they just slap some things together and air it?? I dont remember them showing a photo to compare Malcom Ligget to the man with Ruby. Aslo if I remember correctly, didnt Ligget's ex wife say that Ferrie would come and visit there home? Question for Stephen Roy, Has John Ligget's name ever come up in your research into David Ferrie?

I agree with Larry, Oswald working both sides would make him feel as if he was doing his "job", which he was, little did he know, this all led to him being set up as the scape goat ....

I agree with James, it was Oswald who visited Odio's residents. And I also would like to know where his HSCA testimony went to, Hemmings was made public, maybe Seymour had alot more "backing" then anyone thought he did.

You will get a few answers on who people think these men are... So I will give you my opinion, DCM Felipe Vidal Santiago, and UM Roy Hargraves....

James, Come to think of it, Craig said the guy who got into the rambler had messy hair also....

James, Funny you mention Seymour, I was thinking the same thing. Russo's description of Oswald does not sound like the Oswald we have seen..Whiskers with messy hair etc...Its been said that Seymour was a close look alike to Oswald, and some believe he went around posing as Oswald, well when you look at Seymour and Russo's description of Oswald, it sounds more like it was Seymour he was seeing... Oswald always looked as though he was well groomed, except in one photo.... Hmmmmm

scratch that, he has past on.....

Is he alive or has he past on? If he is alive does anyone have any contact info on him?? Thanks

Excellent stuff Stephen, I guess I read into these serial killers etc. from my father being a Homicide Det (Ret.) Have you ever researched the Zodiac killer??

I was wondering if any teachers have teached there students on Irish slaves? I found this article and thought I would post it...... ENGLAND'S IRISH SLAVES by Robert E. West PEC Illinois State Director* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Records are replete with references to early Irish Catholics in the West Indies. Gwynn in Analecta Hibernica, states: 'The earliest reference to the Irish is the establishment of an Irish settlement on the Amazon River in 1612."(1) Smith, in Colonists in Bondage, reports: "a Proclamation of the year 1625 urged the banishing overseas of dangerous rogues (Irish Political Prisoners); kidnapping (of Irish) was common."(2) Condon states that the first considerable emigration from Ireland to the southern latitudes of America was to Guiana in 1629.(3) Newton declares that Antigua and Montserrat were occupied as early as 1632 and that many emigrant Irish came out among the early planters and servants in these islands.(4) Dunn, in Sugar and Slaves, asserts that, in 1636, Ireland was already a prime source of supply for servants: as early as 1637, on Montserrat the Irish heavily outnumbered the English colonists, and 69 percent of Montserrat's white inhabitants were Irish.(5) Lenihan writes: in 1650 "25,000 Irishmen sold as slaves in Saint Kitt's and the adjoining islands, petitioned for a priest..."(6) In 1641, Ireland's population was 1,466,000 and in 1652, 616,000. According to Sir William Petty, 850,000 were wasted by the sword, plague, famine, hardship and banishment during the Confederation War 1641-1652. At the end of the war, vast numbers of Irish men, women and children were forcibly transported to the American colonies by the English government.(7) These people were rounded up like cattle, and, as Prendergast reports on Thurloe's State Papers(8) (Pub. London, 1742), "In clearing the ground for the adventurers and soldiers (the English capitalists of that day)... To be transported to Barbados and the English plantations in America. It was a measure beneficial to Ireland, which was thus relieved of a population that might trouble the planters; it was a benefit to the people removed, which might thus be made English and Christians ... a great benefit to the West India sugar planters, who desired men and boys for their bondsmen, and the women and Irish girls... To solace them."(9) J. Williams provides additional evidence of the attitude of the English government towards the Irish in an English law of June 26, 1657: "Those who fail to transplant themselves into Connaught (Ireland's Western Province) or (County) Clare within six months... Shall be attained of high treason... Are to be sent into America or some other parts beyond the seas..."(10) Those thus banished who return are to "suffer the pains of death as felons by virtue of this act, without benefit of Clergy."(11) The following are but a few of the numerous references to those Irish transported against their will between 1651 and 1660. Emmet asserts that during this time, more that "100,000 young children who were orphans or had been taken from their Catholic parents, were sent abroad into slavery in the West Indies, Virginia and New England, that they might lose their faith and all knowledge of their nationality, for in most instances even their names were changed... Moreover, the contemporary writers assert between 20,000 and 30,000 men and women who were taken prisoner were sold in the American colonies as slaves, with no respect to their former station in life."(12) Dunn claims in Barbados the Irish Catholics constituted the largest block of servants on the island.(13) Higham estimated that in 1652 Barbados had absorbed no less than 12,000 of these political prisoners.(14) E. Williams reports: "In 1656 Cromwell's Council of State voted that 1,000 Irish girls and 1,000 Irish young men be sent to Jamaica."(15) Smith declares: "it is impossible to say how many shiploads of unhappy Irish were dispatched to America by the English government," and "no mention of such shipments would be very likely to appear in the State Papers... They must have been very considerable in number."(16) Estimates vary between 80,000 and 130,000 regarding the amount of Irish sent into slavery in America and the West Indies during the years of 1651 - 1660: Prendergast says 80,000(17); Boudin 100,000(18); Emmet 120,000 to 130,000(19); Lingard 60,000 up until 1656(20); and Condon estimates "the number of Irish transported to the British colonies in America from 1651 - 1660 exceeded the total number of their inhabitants at that period, a fact which ought not to be lost sight of by those who undertake to estimate the strength of the Celtic element in this nation..."(21) It is impossible to ascertain the exact number of those unfortunate victims of English injustice during this period, but we do know the amount was massive. Even though the figures given above are but estimates, they are estimates from eminent historians. The flow of the Irish to the American colonies throughout the remainder of the 17th century was large and continuous, but not nearly as massive as between 1651 and 1660. Some of the many statements by historians give evidence of this Irish tide. Higham reports that in 1664 the Irish took the place of the French on St. Bartholomew's.(22) Smith claims that during the four years leading up to 1675, already 500 Irish servants were brought to Jamaica by ships from Bristol, England that stopped in Ireland for provisions.(23) During 1680 on the Leeward Islands, Dunn posits: "with so many Irish Catholic servants and farmers... The English planters became obsessed with the fear of popery."(24) Dunn also states that in Jamaica in 1685 the 2nd Duke of Aberlmarle, after his appointment by James II, a Catholic, mustered his chief support from the Irish Catholic small planters and servants and that the indentured servants who constituted the island militia were mainly Irish Catholic.(25) In reporting on Father Garganel's statements, Lenihan claims: "in 1699 Father Garganel, S.J., Superior of the island of Martinique, asked for one or two Irish Fathers for that and the neighboring isles which were 'fill of Irish' for every year shiploads of men, boys and girls, partly crimped, partly carried off by main force for the purposes of slave trade, are conveyed by the English from Ireland."(26) Smith has recorded that "Servants sailed from every port in the British Isles, but by far the greater number came from London, Bristol, Liverpool, Dublin and Cork, and, doubtless, it was principally the merchants of Bristol, Whitehaven and Liverpool which conducted trade with Ireland."(27) Emmet clarifies Smith's statement in detail by asserting: "the early and continued emigration of the Irish to this country during the 17th century has been lost sight of in consequence of this change to English surnames and from the fact that no vessel was knowingly allowed to sail from Ireland direct, but by law was obliged first to visit an English port before clearance papers could be obtained. Consequently, every Irish emigrant (slave, servant, etc..) crossing in an Irish or English vessel from either England or Ireland, appeared in the official records as English, for the voyage did not begin according to law until the ship cleared from an English port, and all passengers on arrival in this country (American Colonies) were rated as English."(28) It is also of importance to be aware of the fact, as Dunn confirmed, that most population lists for Barbados, Jamaica and the Leeward Islands concern only parish registers of the Church of England, all other people were essentially ignored in the head count."(29) The English government variously referred to Irish to be transported as rogues, vagabonds, rebels, neutrals, felons, military prisoners, teachers, priests, maidens etc. All historians call them servants, bondsman, indentured servants, slaves, etc., and agree that they were all political victims. The plain facts are that most were treated as slaves. After their land was confiscated by England, which drove them from their ancestral homes to forage for roots like animals, they were kidnapped, rounded up and driven like cattle to waiting ships and transported to English colonies in America, never to see their country again. They were the victims of what many called the immense "Irish Slave Trade." All writers on the 17th century American colonies are in agreement that the treatment of white servants or white slaves in English colonies was cruel to the extreme, worse than that of black slaves; that inhuman treatment was the norm, that torture (and branding FT, fugitive traitor, on the forehead) was the punishment for attempted escape. Dunn stated: "Servants were punished by whipping, strung up by the hands and matches lighted between their fingers, beaten over the head until blood ran," --all this on the slightest provocation.(30) Ligon, an eyewitness in Barbados from 1647-1650 said, "Truly, I have seen cruelty there done to servants as I did not think one Christian could have done to another."(31) It is a matter of great importance to realize that most of the white slaves, servants and small farmers abandoned the West Indies for the mainland colonies in America. Dunn reports: "Between 1678 and 1713, Leeward sugar planters became more rich and powerful and controlled all local councils and assemblies so white servants and small farmers abandoned the Leeward Islands."(32) Craven said that between 1643 and 1667, about 12,000 left Barbados for other plantations(33) and Dunn said the white population of the Leeward Islands was reduced by 30 percent between 1678 and 1708.(34) According to Craven, in Colonies in Transition, prior to the 1680's, the hopes which sustained the Carolina venture continued to depend chiefly upon the migration of settlers from the older colonies, especially from the West Indies.(35) Smith asserted that after 1670, the emigration of whites from the smaller islands at least equalled the immigration.(36) Condon declared: "In [the] course of time many of those who had been transported to the West Indies in this manner found their way to the colonies on the continent, in search of greater freedom and a more healthful climate."(37) All writers on the 17th century history agree that between one-half and two thirds of white immigrants in the British West Indies and mainland America were servants, most of them severely mistreated. Most all Irish immigrants were 'servants.' Irish were almost exclusively Catholic (at least they were when they left Ireland) and most were of ancient Irish families even though they appeared in English records as English, if recorded at all. After 20,000 Puritans arrived in the American colonies from 1630-1640, migration of English colonists all but subsided. Some writers say after 1640 only a trickle of English colonists arrived. In 1632, many Irish were on Antigua. In 1637, 69 percent of whites on Montserrat were Irish. In 1650, 25,000 Irish were on St. Kitt's and Nevis and some were on other Leeward islands. In 1652, prior to the wholesale transportation of Irish, most of 12 thousand political prisoners on Barbados were Irish. From 1651 to 1660, between 80,000 to 130,000 Irish were transported. From 1660-1700, there was a large steady flow of Irish immigrants. Most whites, especially servants, slaves and small farmers went to the American mainland for more freedom, a healthier climate and economic betterment. There are no verifiable records on the white population of all the American colonies in the 17th century. Some estimates include blacks, some do not. Some list only members of the Church of England. Estimates are made for Barbados for a certain year while estimates are made for the Leeward Islands for other years. The same applies to Jamaica and the mainland colonies. One estimate for the mainland colonies, white and black included, was given at 204,000 in 1689. In the absence of reliable records, I believe it is necessary to take the following into very serious consideration: migration trends, prolificness of people of varying national origin, laws in effect in the country from which people migrated; the prevailing conditions in the country undergoing emigration; the amount of control the emigrating people had over their own destiny; and the fact that all American colonies both mainland and the West Indies were very intertwined, Well over one-half of white immigrants to the West Indies during the 17th century were Irish Catholic servants, most who, in the course of time, abandoned the West Indies for the mainland American colonies.

I read the topic on slaves by John, which was very interesting. I found this artice and was wondering why this topic of slavery is never talked about in history classes to high school kids or middle school for that matter? IMHO Slavery in all aspects should be teached, it wasnt just African's that were used as slaves, but many other race's of people were used as slave as well...... ENGLAND'S IRISH SLAVES by Robert E. West PEC Illinois State Director* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Records are replete with references to early Irish Catholics in the West Indies. Gwynn in Analecta Hibernica, states: 'The earliest reference to the Irish is the establishment of an Irish settlement on the Amazon River in 1612."(1) Smith, in Colonists in Bondage, reports: "a Proclamation of the year 1625 urged the banishing overseas of dangerous rogues (Irish Political Prisoners); kidnapping (of Irish) was common."(2) Condon states that the first considerable emigration from Ireland to the southern latitudes of America was to Guiana in 1629.(3) Newton declares that Antigua and Montserrat were occupied as early as 1632 and that many emigrant Irish came out among the early planters and servants in these islands.(4) Dunn, in Sugar and Slaves, asserts that, in 1636, Ireland was already a prime source of supply for servants: as early as 1637, on Montserrat the Irish heavily outnumbered the English colonists, and 69 percent of Montserrat's white inhabitants were Irish.(5) Lenihan writes: in 1650 "25,000 Irishmen sold as slaves in Saint Kitt's and the adjoining islands, petitioned for a priest..."(6) In 1641, Ireland's population was 1,466,000 and in 1652, 616,000. According to Sir William Petty, 850,000 were wasted by the sword, plague, famine, hardship and banishment during the Confederation War 1641-1652. At the end of the war, vast numbers of Irish men, women and children were forcibly transported to the American colonies by the English government.(7) These people were rounded up like cattle, and, as Prendergast reports on Thurloe's State Papers(8) (Pub. London, 1742), "In clearing the ground for the adventurers and soldiers (the English capitalists of that day)... To be transported to Barbados and the English plantations in America. It was a measure beneficial to Ireland, which was thus relieved of a population that might trouble the planters; it was a benefit to the people removed, which might thus be made English and Christians ... a great benefit to the West India sugar planters, who desired men and boys for their bondsmen, and the women and Irish girls... To solace them."(9) J. Williams provides additional evidence of the attitude of the English government towards the Irish in an English law of June 26, 1657: "Those who fail to transplant themselves into Connaught (Ireland's Western Province) or (County) Clare within six months... Shall be attained of high treason... Are to be sent into America or some other parts beyond the seas..."(10) Those thus banished who return are to "suffer the pains of death as felons by virtue of this act, without benefit of Clergy."(11) The following are but a few of the numerous references to those Irish transported against their will between 1651 and 1660. Emmet asserts that during this time, more that "100,000 young children who were orphans or had been taken from their Catholic parents, were sent abroad into slavery in the West Indies, Virginia and New England, that they might lose their faith and all knowledge of their nationality, for in most instances even their names were changed... Moreover, the contemporary writers assert between 20,000 and 30,000 men and women who were taken prisoner were sold in the American colonies as slaves, with no respect to their former station in life."(12) Dunn claims in Barbados the Irish Catholics constituted the largest block of servants on the island.(13) Higham estimated that in 1652 Barbados had absorbed no less than 12,000 of these political prisoners.(14) E. Williams reports: "In 1656 Cromwell's Council of State voted that 1,000 Irish girls and 1,000 Irish young men be sent to Jamaica."(15) Smith declares: "it is impossible to say how many shiploads of unhappy Irish were dispatched to America by the English government," and "no mention of such shipments would be very likely to appear in the State Papers... They must have been very considerable in number."(16) Estimates vary between 80,000 and 130,000 regarding the amount of Irish sent into slavery in America and the West Indies during the years of 1651 - 1660: Prendergast says 80,000(17); Boudin 100,000(18); Emmet 120,000 to 130,000(19); Lingard 60,000 up until 1656(20); and Condon estimates "the number of Irish transported to the British colonies in America from 1651 - 1660 exceeded the total number of their inhabitants at that period, a fact which ought not to be lost sight of by those who undertake to estimate the strength of the Celtic element in this nation..."(21) It is impossible to ascertain the exact number of those unfortunate victims of English injustice during this period, but we do know the amount was massive. Even though the figures given above are but estimates, they are estimates from eminent historians. The flow of the Irish to the American colonies throughout the remainder of the 17th century was large and continuous, but not nearly as massive as between 1651 and 1660. Some of the many statements by historians give evidence of this Irish tide. Higham reports that in 1664 the Irish took the place of the French on St. Bartholomew's.(22) Smith claims that during the four years leading up to 1675, already 500 Irish servants were brought to Jamaica by ships from Bristol, England that stopped in Ireland for provisions.(23) During 1680 on the Leeward Islands, Dunn posits: "with so many Irish Catholic servants and farmers... The English planters became obsessed with the fear of popery."(24) Dunn also states that in Jamaica in 1685 the 2nd Duke of Aberlmarle, after his appointment by James II, a Catholic, mustered his chief support from the Irish Catholic small planters and servants and that the indentured servants who constituted the island militia were mainly Irish Catholic.(25) In reporting on Father Garganel's statements, Lenihan claims: "in 1699 Father Garganel, S.J., Superior of the island of Martinique, asked for one or two Irish Fathers for that and the neighboring isles which were 'fill of Irish' for every year shiploads of men, boys and girls, partly crimped, partly carried off by main force for the purposes of slave trade, are conveyed by the English from Ireland."(26) Smith has recorded that "Servants sailed from every port in the British Isles, but by far the greater number came from London, Bristol, Liverpool, Dublin and Cork, and, doubtless, it was principally the merchants of Bristol, Whitehaven and Liverpool which conducted trade with Ireland."(27) Emmet clarifies Smith's statement in detail by asserting: "the early and continued emigration of the Irish to this country during the 17th century has been lost sight of in consequence of this change to English surnames and from the fact that no vessel was knowingly allowed to sail from Ireland direct, but by law was obliged first to visit an English port before clearance papers could be obtained. Consequently, every Irish emigrant (slave, servant, etc..) crossing in an Irish or English vessel from either England or Ireland, appeared in the official records as English, for the voyage did not begin according to law until the ship cleared from an English port, and all passengers on arrival in this country (American Colonies) were rated as English."(28) It is also of importance to be aware of the fact, as Dunn confirmed, that most population lists for Barbados, Jamaica and the Leeward Islands concern only parish registers of the Church of England, all other people were essentially ignored in the head count."(29) The English government variously referred to Irish to be transported as rogues, vagabonds, rebels, neutrals, felons, military prisoners, teachers, priests, maidens etc. All historians call them servants, bondsman, indentured servants, slaves, etc., and agree that they were all political victims. The plain facts are that most were treated as slaves. After their land was confiscated by England, which drove them from their ancestral homes to forage for roots like animals, they were kidnapped, rounded up and driven like cattle to waiting ships and transported to English colonies in America, never to see their country again. They were the victims of what many called the immense "Irish Slave Trade." All writers on the 17th century American colonies are in agreement that the treatment of white servants or white slaves in English colonies was cruel to the extreme, worse than that of black slaves; that inhuman treatment was the norm, that torture (and branding FT, fugitive traitor, on the forehead) was the punishment for attempted escape. Dunn stated: "Servants were punished by whipping, strung up by the hands and matches lighted between their fingers, beaten over the head until blood ran," --all this on the slightest provocation.(30) Ligon, an eyewitness in Barbados from 1647-1650 said, "Truly, I have seen cruelty there done to servants as I did not think one Christian could have done to another."(31) It is a matter of great importance to realize that most of the white slaves, servants and small farmers abandoned the West Indies for the mainland colonies in America. Dunn reports: "Between 1678 and 1713, Leeward sugar planters became more rich and powerful and controlled all local councils and assemblies so white servants and small farmers abandoned the Leeward Islands."(32) Craven said that between 1643 and 1667, about 12,000 left Barbados for other plantations(33) and Dunn said the white population of the Leeward Islands was reduced by 30 percent between 1678 and 1708.(34) According to Craven, in Colonies in Transition, prior to the 1680's, the hopes which sustained the Carolina venture continued to depend chiefly upon the migration of settlers from the older colonies, especially from the West Indies.(35) Smith asserted that after 1670, the emigration of whites from the smaller islands at least equalled the immigration.(36) Condon declared: "In [the] course of time many of those who had been transported to the West Indies in this manner found their way to the colonies on the continent, in search of greater freedom and a more healthful climate."(37) All writers on the 17th century history agree that between one-half and two thirds of white immigrants in the British West Indies and mainland America were servants, most of them severely mistreated. Most all Irish immigrants were 'servants.' Irish were almost exclusively Catholic (at least they were when they left Ireland) and most were of ancient Irish families even though they appeared in English records as English, if recorded at all. After 20,000 Puritans arrived in the American colonies from 1630-1640, migration of English colonists all but subsided. Some writers say after 1640 only a trickle of English colonists arrived. In 1632, many Irish were on Antigua. In 1637, 69 percent of whites on Montserrat were Irish. In 1650, 25,000 Irish were on St. Kitt's and Nevis and some were on other Leeward islands. In 1652, prior to the wholesale transportation of Irish, most of 12 thousand political prisoners on Barbados were Irish. From 1651 to 1660, between 80,000 to 130,000 Irish were transported. From 1660-1700, there was a large steady flow of Irish immigrants. Most whites, especially servants, slaves and small farmers went to the American mainland for more freedom, a healthier climate and economic betterment. There are no verifiable records on the white population of all the American colonies in the 17th century. Some estimates include blacks, some do not. Some list only members of the Church of England. Estimates are made for Barbados for a certain year while estimates are made for the Leeward Islands for other years. The same applies to Jamaica and the mainland colonies. One estimate for the mainland colonies, white and black included, was given at 204,000 in 1689. In the absence of reliable records, I believe it is necessary to take the following into very serious consideration: migration trends, prolificness of people of varying national origin, laws in effect in the country from which people migrated; the prevailing conditions in the country undergoing emigration; the amount of control the emigrating people had over their own destiny; and the fact that all American colonies both mainland and the West Indies were very intertwined, Well over one-half of white immigrants to the West Indies during the 17th century were Irish Catholic servants, most who, in the course of time, abandoned the West Indies for the mainland American colonies.

Thanks Pat..... It just sounded very strange that she would do this, write it down that Oswald purchased a rifle, her words she had written down just sounded suspect. I wonder what her explanation was for writing it down in the first place..hmmm

I have a question, 23 Oct. 1963 Ruth Paine makes notation on her calender - ‘LHO purchase of rifle.’ ref. Treachery in Dallas, p 293 Is the above a fact????

However, G. Robert Blakey interviewed Loran Hall, William Seymour and Lawrence Howard and claims that they did not visit Odio. Ive always been wondering where William Seymour's testimony/interview has been??? anyone know where I could find this?

>See, Files stated to me that he knew he was hit over the head and in a certain way that would be a blow to the back of the head. He has an idea now of possible two people who may have done it.< Who did Files say did it??????????