Evan Burton Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 Sorry Evan , but that astronot never got anywhere near that flag ... What you posted is just the best lame excuse that the pro Apollo camp can come up with to try to explain away the fact that enough breeze was kicked up by the astro-actor zipping past the flag to cause it to move . And speaking of aniversaries , since you were silly enough to drag up this old thread and bring up the moon landing myth again , here is a part of a little speech given by the original moonfaker himself , Neil Armstrong , as he tries to hold back tears of regret for his deceprtion ,now 38 years ago. Neil Armstrong on 25th Anniversary of Lunar "Landing" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w-SDs_Skb0...ted&search= Sad isn't it ? If the excuse is that "lame", you should have no problems disproving it. The ALSJ gave a good explanation about how it worked out distances involved and how it came to it's conclusion - and said it is not conclusive. Why not be original, and work out WHY you say it cannot be, giving diagrammes that people can see, working that people can check for themselves, saying what assumptions are made, etc. You strengthen your point that way. People can follow what you have said, and why you have said it. As I have said far too many times in the past (I thought you would understand by now), saying "no it isn't" just doesn't cut it. You have to show WHY it isn't in order for people to be able to confidently say "Duane is right". I'm happy to further expand on the ALSJ details - AFTER you show some support for your opinion in the way of scientific reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Burton Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 Oh, I looked for an appropriate thread to remind people of the Apollo 11 anniversary. In the past 3 or 4 pages I thought this was the most suitable, due to Apollo 11 being mentioned in the title. Have you considered my challenge? You present your "best" evidence in a thread, just you & me. I get constrained by the normal rules, have no moderation powers, will not ask for any moderation, whilst you get open season on me personally, and can say what you want - as long as it does not threaten the Board as a whole (e.g. make a statement that open the Board to libel, etc). That way the deck is stacked in your favour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Greer Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 If the excuse is that "lame", you should have no problems disproving it. The ALSJ gave a good explanation about how it worked out distances involved and how it came to it's conclusion - and said it is not conclusive. That's pretty much my line of thought with this one as well - trying to prove something that requires a high degree of accuracy would not lead to a conclusive result, since the data isn't accurate enough. However, if someone was willing, it may be possible to falsify the hypothesis that he brushed the flag, depending on how big the margins for error are. No-one on the Youtube comments board seems willing or able to do so, so I can't see how they can automatically rule this out. I've figured out what would be a useful test by means of comparison. The flag was a 5'x3' nylon flag. If someone has one of a similar size, they could try and measure both the period and number of oscillations for a given displacement, and compare to the Apollo 15 footage. Allowance could also be made for the footage allegedly being shot at half speed. IIRC when I measured it, the flag could be seen to move for something like 25 seconds after the astronaut moved past it, completing something like 12 full oscillations. I find it hard to believe that could happen in an atmosphere, but lack the resouirces to prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Burton Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 Even so, I'm guessing that Duane's reply will consist of something like "Oh no they didn't!" or "No you are wrong" but without any supporting evidence. He could always surprise us and give a detailed reply, but I wouldn't count on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Daman Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 Evan ... Speaking of using other people work , why is it okay for you to do that but not me ? ....Your 'rebuttal' of the flag , swinging by the breeze of the astro-actor trotting past it on the A15 moonset , was taken right from some pro Apollo forum . You keep asking me for "original " material or evidence that Apollo was a hoax , but the best evidence I have seen of that so far is on David Percy's Aulis site and in Percy's and Bennett's book 'Dark Moon ' and in Percy's documentary ' What Happened on the Moon'....I have also seen the hoax evidenence in nasa's official videos , Man on the Moon , The Apollo Collection and several others that I own ... The faked special effects are even more evident and noticable on wide screen TV ... YouTube video clips are also a good source for seeing the hoax evidence . I don't have the time I used to , to play games with any of you , to write long posts explaining why Apollo was so obviously a scam ....Therefore , I have no interest in your "challenge " ... but thanks for the offer . So to answer your question , I have no way of measuring the distance between the astronot and the moving flag , but looking at the video clip it is obvious that he was several feet away from it and therefore couldn't possibly have bumped into it as he bounced past it in slow motion . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Greer Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 So to answer your question , I have no way of measuring the distance between the astronot and the moving flag , but looking at the video clip it is obvious that he was several feet away from it and therefore couldn't possibly have bumped into it as he bounced past it in slow motion . Unfortunately this explanation creates another anomaly. If he was obviously several feet away and caused the flag to move, why was there no flag movement at all when the other astronaut was much closer? To me that explanation seems self-contradictory. I hope to be able to present some evidence within a couple of weeks based on observations of flag movements on earth that will show whether this footage could have been taken in an atmosphere or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Burton Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 (edited) Evan ... Speaking of using other people work , why is it okay for you to do that but not me ? ....Your 'rebuttal' of the flag , swinging by the breeze of the astro-actor trotting past it on the A15 moonset , was taken right from some pro Apollo forum . Quite true that I took my rebuttal from the ALSJ. Point taken, and I'll do my own analysis - but I'll only present it after you have done yours. Why? In fairness, if you have a look at my rebuttals to Jack's AULIS website you'll see numerous examples of my demonstrating - in clear detail - why Jack's claims are wrong. All my own work. Lots of it. Just in case you have forgotten, the material can be found here. So to answer your question , I have no way of measuring the distance between the astronot and the moving flag , but looking at the video clip it is obvious that he was several feet away from it and therefore couldn't possibly have bumped into it as he bounced past it in slow motion . See? This is what I mean. You say you can't measure it but you know it isn't possible. How can other people be so sure - are you saying "Trust me"? The ALSJ gave the possible reasons for the movement, the likelihood of each. It then showed the circumstances surrounding it's most likely reason, and even admitted that it was not conclusive. You say: "Trust me - I'm right" but don't give people the knowledge to understand WHY you should be considered right or wrong. What is that saying? "The problem is that fools are so certain of themselves, whilst the wiser are unsure'? Something like that. If you are certain, PROVE you are certain. And before you repeat your erroneous statement about not being able to measure the distance, there are a number of things available to you that will allow you to make a reliable estimate. I won't tell you what they are, but they are there. use them. Do the sums. See if they support your conclusion. Edited July 24, 2007 by Evan Burton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Daman Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 (edited) It's simply impossible that he brushed the flag as he zipped past it .... The rover and its camera were too far away from the flag , and he practially filled up the entire frame of the camera as he went past it . As for the theory of dust being kicked up , there is no sign of anything impacting the flag .... and NOWHERE in this video clip is it very high or high enough to hit it . Here's a still photo from the same A15 photo shoot , showing the distance between the camera which allegedy filmed this scene and the flag ... You do the math .... It would have been impossible for him to have run right in front of the camera like he did and also brush up against the flag , which as we see , was several feet away . Edited July 24, 2007 by Duane Daman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Greer Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 It's simply impossible that he brushed the flag as he zipped past it .... The rover and its camera were too far away from the flag , and he practially filled up the entire frame of the camera as he went past it . As for the theory of dust being kicked up , there is no sign of anything impacting the flag .... and NOWHERE in this video clip is it very high or high enough to hit it . Here's a still photo from the same A15 photo shoot , showing the distance between the camera which allegedy filmed this scene and the flag ... You do the math .... It would have been impossible for him to have run right in front of the camera like he did and also brush up against the flag , which as we see , was several feet away . I'll happily admit that when I first saw the video, my own subjective opinion was that he seemed close to the camera to touch the flag. Subjective opinion can be very misleading though, so I'm trying just to deal with the facts and the available data. When I get time I will try and post my own findings re the photgraphic and video evidence, which I still believe is inconclusive when you study it in more detail. In the meantime, I found an old nylon England flag, about 2.5' x 4', in my Mum's house today. No matter how much I tried getting that flag to wave, its motion was very quickly damped by the atmosphere, something like 3 or 4 seconds, with very few oscillations. The Apollo 15 footage showed approx 12 oscillations over 25 seconds - I find it very difficult to believe that a nylon flag as seen in the Apollo footage could carry on moving like that for so long in an atmosphere. It may be possible to get the flag to start moving, but it would very quickly be damped. Duane, you don't sound like a dyed-in-the-wool flag-waving American, but I'm sure you must have access to a flag of some sort? Maybe you fly one outside of your shop on July 4th. The Apollo flag was 5' x 3', made from nylon (just a regular flag - not made from some space-age kapton-like material). I urge you to try this yourself - see if you can get the flag to behave as you see in the Apollo 15 footage. Obviously we're not talking about a flag flapping in a breeze here - I'm assuming your opinion is that the flag is caused to move by the astronaut's "wake" as he hops past in an otherwise still room - so don't just get some footage of a flag flapping in the wind! I think you'll be surprised at how quickly the motion of the flag is damped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Daman Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Dave ... Unless you were able to completely duplicate the conditions in the A15 video , then your flag experiment would be worthless ... First of all , you would need to have the same size flag made from the same material , hanging on a thin aluminum pole , suspended from a rod at the top of it , possibly starched , and then trott past it in the same bouncing , SLOW MOTION fashion of the astronot . Most likely the reason the flag didn't "dampen " as quickly in the nasa footage as it did in your "experiment" , is because it was filmed in SLOW MOTION , and therefore it moved longer . And yes , the flag is NOT waving in a breeze , but rather swaying by the wake made by the astronot as he bounced past it in an atmosphere , not a vacuum . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Greer Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Dave ... Unless you were able to completely duplicate the conditions in the A15 video , then your flag experiment would be worthless ... First of all , you would need to have the same size flag made from the same material , hanging on a thin aluminum pole , suspended from a rod at the top of it , possibly starched , and then trott past it in the same bouncing , SLOW MOTION fashion of the astronot .Most likely the reason the flag didn't "dampen " as quickly in the nasa footage as it did in your "experiment" , is because it was filmed in SLOW MOTION , and therefore it moved longer . And yes , the flag is NOT waving in a breeze , but rather swaying by the wake made by the astronot as he bounced past it in an atmosphere , not a vacuum . Duane, I've proved this to my own satisfaction that it couldn't have been caused by wind, the damping really is too great. The only way for you to prove this to your satisfaction is to try it yourself - there are plenty of suitable flags on eBay for about $7. Once you try it yourself you see the flag motion is nothing at all like it is in the Apollo 15 footage - and it isn't something that could be explained by slowing the film down. I'm not asking you just to believe me, but urge you to try it yourself. If you really can recreate the effect seen in the Apollo 15 footage (even taking into account slowed down footage), please let me know. Perhaps your friend Greenmagoos could reproduce a video of this effect here on earth? I really have tried to reproduce this with two flags, another of which is 5' x 3' (same as Apollo). I can't reproduce the effect no matter how I try. I'll only get accused on Youtube of not doing the experiment properly, so would rather other people tried it for themselves. Good luck with the experiment, it had me perplexed. I'll keep on trying to see what conditions best replicate the Apollo 15 footage, but I'm nowhere near yet. That's why I'm asking you to do it yourself, so I can't be accused of skullduggery (this post is a great excuse to finally get to use that word!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Dave ... Unless you were able to completely duplicate the conditions in the A15 video , then your flag experiment would be worthless ... First of all , you would need to have the same size flag made from the same material , hanging on a thin aluminum pole , suspended from a rod at the top of it , possibly starched , and then trott past it in the same bouncing , SLOW MOTION fashion of the astronot .Most likely the reason the flag didn't "dampen " as quickly in the nasa footage as it did in your "experiment" , is because it was filmed in SLOW MOTION , and therefore it moved longer . And yes , the flag is NOT waving in a breeze , but rather swaying by the wake made by the astronot as he bounced past it in an atmosphere , not a vacuum . Duane, I've proved this to my own satisfaction that it couldn't have been caused by wind, the damping really is too great. The only way for you to prove this to your satisfaction is to try it yourself - there are plenty of suitable flags on eBay for about $7. Once you try it yourself you see the flag motion is nothing at all like it is in the Apollo 15 footage - and it isn't something that could be explained by slowing the film down. I'm not asking you just to believe me, but urge you to try it yourself. If you really can recreate the effect seen in the Apollo 15 footage (even taking into account slowed down footage), please let me know. Perhaps your friend Greenmagoos could reproduce a video of this effect here on earth? I really have tried to reproduce this with two flags, another of which is 5' x 3' (same as Apollo). I can't reproduce the effect no matter how I try. I'll only get accused on Youtube of not doing the experiment properly, so would rather other people tried it for themselves. Good luck with the experiment, it had me perplexed. I'll keep on trying to see what conditions best replicate the Apollo 15 footage, but I'm nowhere near yet. That's why I'm asking you to do it yourself, so I can't be accused of skullduggery (this post is a great excuse to finally get to use that word!) How did you manage to achieve the vacuum conditions? Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Greer Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 Dave ... Unless you were able to completely duplicate the conditions in the A15 video , then your flag experiment would be worthless ... First of all , you would need to have the same size flag made from the same material , hanging on a thin aluminum pole , suspended from a rod at the top of it , possibly starched , and then trott past it in the same bouncing , SLOW MOTION fashion of the astronot .Most likely the reason the flag didn't "dampen " as quickly in the nasa footage as it did in your "experiment" , is because it was filmed in SLOW MOTION , and therefore it moved longer . And yes , the flag is NOT waving in a breeze , but rather swaying by the wake made by the astronot as he bounced past it in an atmosphere , not a vacuum . Duane, I've proved this to my own satisfaction that it couldn't have been caused by wind, the damping really is too great. The only way for you to prove this to your satisfaction is to try it yourself - there are plenty of suitable flags on eBay for about $7. Once you try it yourself you see the flag motion is nothing at all like it is in the Apollo 15 footage - and it isn't something that could be explained by slowing the film down. I'm not asking you just to believe me, but urge you to try it yourself. If you really can recreate the effect seen in the Apollo 15 footage (even taking into account slowed down footage), please let me know. Perhaps your friend Greenmagoos could reproduce a video of this effect here on earth? I really have tried to reproduce this with two flags, another of which is 5' x 3' (same as Apollo). I can't reproduce the effect no matter how I try. I'll only get accused on Youtube of not doing the experiment properly, so would rather other people tried it for themselves. Good luck with the experiment, it had me perplexed. I'll keep on trying to see what conditions best replicate the Apollo 15 footage, but I'm nowhere near yet. That's why I'm asking you to do it yourself, so I can't be accused of skullduggery (this post is a great excuse to finally get to use that word!) How did you manage to achieve the vacuum conditions? Jack Jack Duane (and others on Youtube) are asserting that the motion of the flag is proof that it was filmed in an atmosphere. I've not been able to get my similarly sized nylon flag to behave in anything like a similar manner, even taking into account Apollo footage being played at half-speed. The atmospheric damping is much too great. In summary, I wasn't trying to recreate conditions on the moon - I was trying to see how the flag might behave on a soundstage. Try it yourself and see what you come up with, and compare it to the motion of the flag in the Apollo 15 footage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 Dave ... Unless you were able to completely duplicate the conditions in the A15 video , then your flag experiment would be worthless ... First of all , you would need to have the same size flag made from the same material , hanging on a thin aluminum pole , suspended from a rod at the top of it , possibly starched , and then trott past it in the same bouncing , SLOW MOTION fashion of the astronot .Most likely the reason the flag didn't "dampen " as quickly in the nasa footage as it did in your "experiment" , is because it was filmed in SLOW MOTION , and therefore it moved longer . And yes , the flag is NOT waving in a breeze , but rather swaying by the wake made by the astronot as he bounced past it in an atmosphere , not a vacuum . Duane, I've proved this to my own satisfaction that it couldn't have been caused by wind, the damping really is too great. The only way for you to prove this to your satisfaction is to try it yourself - there are plenty of suitable flags on eBay for about $7. Once you try it yourself you see the flag motion is nothing at all like it is in the Apollo 15 footage - and it isn't something that could be explained by slowing the film down. I'm not asking you just to believe me, but urge you to try it yourself. If you really can recreate the effect seen in the Apollo 15 footage (even taking into account slowed down footage), please let me know. Perhaps your friend Greenmagoos could reproduce a video of this effect here on earth? I really have tried to reproduce this with two flags, another of which is 5' x 3' (same as Apollo). I can't reproduce the effect no matter how I try. I'll only get accused on Youtube of not doing the experiment properly, so would rather other people tried it for themselves. Good luck with the experiment, it had me perplexed. I'll keep on trying to see what conditions best replicate the Apollo 15 footage, but I'm nowhere near yet. That's why I'm asking you to do it yourself, so I can't be accused of skullduggery (this post is a great excuse to finally get to use that word!) How did you manage to achieve the vacuum conditions? Jack Jack Duane (and others on Youtube) are asserting that the motion of the flag is proof that it was filmed in an atmosphere. I've not been able to get my similarly sized nylon flag to behave in anything like a similar manner, even taking into account Apollo footage being played at half-speed. The atmospheric damping is much too great. In summary, I wasn't trying to recreate conditions on the moon - I was trying to see how the flag might behave on a soundstage. Try it yourself and see what you come up with, and compare it to the motion of the flag in the Apollo 15 footage. Your experiment is worthless, like comparing a peach to a plum. If you did not perform the experiment in a vacuum, it means nothing. I doubt that you used a genuine Apollo flag and flagpole unless your NASA folks loaned you one. If the flag fluttered in a vacuum, that is what you must test...not the unknown conditions in a photo studio. We do not know the conditions in the studio; maybe somebody turned on a fan. Your test amounts to a non-sequitur. I have not seen the clip in question. Do you admit that the flag moves without being touched? Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin M. West Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 I don't admit it, it begins to move when the view is obstructed. How can you claim it wasn't touched? Did you calculate the distance to the astronaut and to the flag to show it was out of reach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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