Close-up of Duncan MacRae's Knoll shooter

[Chris Davidson]

Can anyone enlighten me?

Where are the marked railroad lines going?

They appear to me to be going

into the picket fence.

The central line will - if it continues

on its logical curve - end up on Elm Street?

Is this possible?

IMO, there is something strange about these railroad lines?

I am unfamiliar with the exact configuration

of the railway lines behind the picket fence and

around the car lot area.

Perhaps these railway lines are disused and are

the remnants of earlier lines?

Has anyone an accurate photograph of the layout

of the railway lines on 22nd November 1963?

EBC

Eugene,

If it helps.

chris

[Guest Eugene B. Connolly]

EBC

Eugene,

If it helps.

chris

Thanks,Chris.

Very helpful, indeed.

Eugene

[Lee Forman]

The Truth Of The Matter

Click here to watch and listen to Hollands Story

Click here to watch and listen to Hoffmans Story

Watch both videos, look at my composite, and you MUST come to the conclusion that Ed's story is false.

Duncan

Duncan - I fail to come to that conclusion.

Holland

"I immediately ran around to where I could see behind the arcade and did not see anyone running from there."

Hoffman

The "suit man" tossed the rifle over to the "railroad man." (There was a thin, horizontal pipe, about four feet off the ground, and a shallow ditch beneath the pipe, and couple [of] yards from the railroad tracks, which separated the "suit man" from the "railroad man.")

The "railroad man" received the rifle, dismantled it, stashed it in the "tool box," and started running north along the tracks. (Military people tell us that this kind of rifle can be dismantled in less time [than] it takes to describe it — click and twist.) Ed emphasizes that both men acted very quickly.

Meanwhile, the men on the triple overpass still stood there, pointing toward the area of the smoke by the fence, and gesticulating rather visibly.

The man in the blue suit assumed a casual composure, and sauntered back toward the north end of the fence.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/hoffman_map.gif

Weitzman

Mr. WEITZMAN - I asked a yardman if he had seen or heard anything during the passing of the President. He said he thought he saw somebody throw something through a bush and that's when I went back over the fence and that's when I found the portion of the skull. I thought it was a firecracker portion; that's what we first were looking for. This was before we knew the President was dead.

Mr. BALL - Did the yardman tell you where he thought the noise came from?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; he pointed out the wall section where there was a bunch of shrubbery and I believe that's to the right where I went over the wall where the steampipe was; that would be going north back toward the jail

- lee

[Lee Forman]

Duncan - I fail to come to that conclusion.

Try listening to the Youtube videos instead of reading 2nd hand accounts with added non factual opinions from the Mcadams website etc.

The Youtube videos show Holland and Hoffman's true words and visual accounts of what they believe actually happened, and what their actions were that day. Their opinions come straight from the horses mouth, not from website propoganda.

Watch, listen to both and equate.

Duncan

I've seen them before. I watched again. No change.

The first quote came from Holland's original affidavit.

The second did come from McAdam's website - but I don't believe Hoffman would differ with it - I was under the impression that these were his words. I can validate that if you'd like.

The third was Weitzman's testimony.

Hypothetically, Holland 'runs' to the area Hoffman's suitman has already vacated. He may not have even seen the break-down man in his position behind the switch. If Holland took the same path he indicates in the video with Lane - the odds are that he would not have seen the breakdown man - as you have demonstrated with the photo of Hoffman in this position - Plus Holland is focused on reaching the area from where he believes the shot came from - which IMO is the area just to the right of the tree in the Moorman polaroid. Further, Holland is negotiating 'bumper-to-bumper...hard to get through...a sea of cars.' They were forced to climb over the hoods of the cars parked there - which in itself is well worth noting. Clearance along the edge of the fence to the steampipe to provide easy access to the breakdown man - then walk between 2 cars to the open lane which was inaccessable from the underpass except by climbing over cars parked bumper-to-bumper in this location as a barrier. Hoffman's 'suitman' is no longer in this location by the time he is able to reach it. If anything, he could have encountered the man with his back to Holland walking away from him. And if he is back there when Joe Marshall Smith arrives, and when Holland is heading for the area - again, if Suitman is wearing a hat indicative of some form of authority - he's part of the scenery. Plus let's not forget Mabra's unknown 'gee fellows.'

- lee

[Jack White]

Let me interject.

Lots of witnesses. Lots of confusion. Lots of people moving around.

Unless someone APPEARED SUSPICIOUS, most witnesses would

not pay attention to other people in their area.

And Hoffman said one of the men WAS A RAILROAD MAN. Nothing

suspicious about a railroad man by the switch boxes, even if Holland

saw him.

Speculations are not evidence.

Jack

[Bill Miller]

The Truth Of The Matter

Click here to watch and listen to Hollands Story

Click here to watch and listen to Hoffmans Story

Watch both videos, look at my composite, and you MUST come to the conclusion that Ed's story is false.

Duncan

Duncan, I take it that you do not bother reading the postings of others because you are so busy with your own research. I will offer this piece of information once again so you don't keep making the same errors over and over again ... of course unless that is what you prefer to do. Mark Bell filmed the limo going into the overpass and then he swings his camera back to the pedestal and then again we see the underpass. What most people will not know is that Bell turned his camera off for a short period before filming the underpass. The traffic seen in the street offers a time-line. I think you will find that the Bell film shows that at least a minute had expired before Bell panned back to the underpass and Holland and the rest are still there. Now unless you figure that someone had altered the Bell film to put Holland back on the underpass - it is wrong for you to pretend that Holland immediately ran into the RR yard. In fact, somewhere I have read that Holland had said that it took him several minutes to get back behind the fence where the shot was heard.

Anyway, I wanted to share the information about the Bell film so you can apply it to your future post.

Bill

[Bill Miller]

Let me interject.

Lots of witnesses. Lots of confusion. Lots of people moving around.

Unless someone APPEARED SUSPICIOUS, most witnesses would

not pay attention to other people in their area.

And Hoffman said one of the men WAS A RAILROAD MAN. Nothing

suspicious about a railroad man by the switch boxes, even if Holland

saw him.

Speculations are not evidence.

Jack

Jack is exactly right! The same could be said about someone showing a fake SS Badge in the RR yard ... Officer Smith thought nothing of it at the time. He even excused the dirty hands the guy had because he was so pressed for time. Arnold was met by the tree above the knoll by two people wearing what Gordon said were police uniforms. Towner's enlarged photo in Groden's book shows two people in dark clothing exactly where Arnold would have been, but no one else mentioned seeing these guys talking to the serviceman with the camera - WHY - because it would not appear out of the ordinary for cops to be asking a witness if they saw or heard anything. In fact, if Towner's photo had not have captured these figures near the tree above the knoll - no one would have even known they were there.

The same photo shows a fellow who looks to be dressed like a custodian (see Bowers testimony) and this man is seen near the shelter doorway looking over the fence and into the RR yard and no one claimed to have seen him either, but it happened and all for the reasons that Jack gave.

Bill

[Bill Miller]

Miller!

I was hoping - indeed - I KNEW you'd come back.

I do not have access to the photographs in your

two copy version of the WC.

My images as I have stated so many times before

are not photographs. They are impressions, representations

or reconstructions.

I am not sure what a "two copy version of the WC" is ... can you explain what you meant by that ... if you even know? As far as your cartoons - I agree that they are impressions, but the word "False" should come before the word "impressions". They also cannot be representations or reconstructions IMO if the data within them is not correct so to match the real world.

Perhaps you could tell me and the rest of the

forum why you directed members to your friend

Myers' website?

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/badgeman_4.htm

What was that all about?

EBC, I would be happy to explain my post if you will be so kind as to cite exactly what was said. My recollection was that I responded to someone else who first linked Dale's website. In fact, I think it was post number 433 where I merely quoted Duncan where he used that link. If you go back to post number 405 - you will see that it was Miles who posted the link to Myers site when referring to Badge Man and what Bowers saw. I think I addressed that issue by pointing out that the Badge Man image doesn't show but a man in a possible police uniform and what looks to be a RR worker close by ... no man in a plaid coat seen anywhere. Your ability to jump to conclusions seems to get the best of you at times. I have only met Dale Myers one time and I don't agree with his opinions and I have said that his animation is not to scale in a way that overlays onto the actual Zframes.... if that makes him "my friend" by your definition of the word, then I can see why you have such a difficult time with witnesses statements and the evidence of this case.

Keep the lessons coming ... I am always glad to learn something new!

Bill Miller

Edited July 18, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

Duncan, I take it that you do not bother reading the postings of others because you are so busy with your own research.

Huh?

Mark Bell filmed the limo going into the overpass and then he swings his camera back to the pedestal and then again we see the underpass. What most people will not know is that Bell turned his camera off for a short period before filming the underpass. The traffic seen in the street offers a time-line. I think you will find that the Bell film shows that at least a minute had expired before Bell panned back to the underpass and Holland and the rest are still there.

How can you tell if Holland is there from the Bell film. Grab a frame and point him out to prove your point. Bet you can't

Now unless you figure that someone had altered the Bell film to put Holland back on the underpass - it is wrong for you to pretend that Holland immediately ran into the RR yard.

So are you calling Sam Holland a xxxx? Holland states clearly that he went immediately to the area, yes immediately is the EXACT word he used on film. I prefer to believe his documented on film accounts than 2nd hand information and altered transcripts.

He said it in the Lane film, so that's the story I believe.

In fact, somewhere I have read that Holland had said that it took him several minutes to get back behind the fence where the shot was heard.

Don't believe everything you read. Documented film evidence exists as as I have shown which gives his true story. You simply turn a blind eye to the Lane film because it contradicts with Ed Hoffman's account

Anyway, I wanted to share the information about the Bell film so you can apply it to your future post.

You are not sharing information. You are sharing an opinion which needs evidence to back it up

Duncan

Duncan,

Hello! F U D G E -- A L E R T !!

This image shows the two men at the balustrade (left red arrow) as the limo passes through the underpass.

But! If you closely examine the Bell film frame by frame you will find that the Bell film captures these two men at that position

before the limo enters the shadow cast on to Elm by the triple underpass, which shadow was lying out into Elm considerably east of the

underpass. These men were at their position BEFORE the limo entered the mouth of the underpass.

Later, in under 15 seconds of passed time after the time point of the limo being under the the underpass going through it, the

same men are captured by the Bell film looking in the direction of the steam pipe & the switch box.

This means that the these men were looking at the steam pipe at least by 25 seconds after Z-313. Since it would have taken Ed's sniper

at least 25 seconds to reach the steam pipe for the alleged rifle toss, we now can say definitively that Ed's story is not credible.

Another Bell film frame shows individuals beginning to move at a run to the steam pipe from Holland's position at Z-313 just as the limo has passed through

the underpass. This would have put these forerunners who were running ahead of Holland at a view of the steam pipe at under 30 seconds, to catch sight of

the alleged rifle toss, not to mention the subsequent alleged rifle disassembly. Ed's story, concocted from 265 yards away (Bowers was 75 yards away!),

is a dog which simply will not hunt.

Duncan, if you're not careful, these deceitful fudge artists will traduce you & an innocent public in the best traditions of the Warren Commission.

Edited July 18, 2007 by Miles Scull

[Bill Miller]

Mark Bell filmed the limo going into the overpass and then he swings his camera back to the pedestal and then again we see the underpass. What most people will not know is that Bell turned his camera off for a short period before filming the underpass. The traffic seen in the street offers a time-line. I think you will find that the Bell film shows that at least a minute had expired before Bell panned back to the underpass and Holland and the rest are still there.

How can you tell if Holland is there from the Bell film. Grab a frame and point him out to prove your point. Bet you can't

Miles writes; "Duncan, if you're not careful, these deceitful fudge artists will traduce you & an innocent public in the best traditions of the Warren Commission." Once again I must ask if this is a confession on YOUR part??? Let us examine the facts to see who is fudging what!

OK Miles, do you remember the above information being previously posted? I mentioned that Bell had turned his camera off and that by the time he panned back to the underpass -the better part of a minute had elapsed. You have now again posted that 15 seconds has elapsed, which by the way is the continued time count that you got off the player ... you failed to consider the point I made about Bell having turned his camera off and starting it again during those 15 seconds.

This is what you wrote; "But! If you closely examine the Bell film frame by frame you will find that the Bell film captures these two men at that position before the limo enters the shadow cast on to Elm by the triple underpass, which shadow was lying out into Elm considerably east of the underpass. These men were at their position BEFORE the limo entered the mouth of the underpass.

Later, in under 15 seconds of passed time after the time point of the limo being under the the underpass going through it, the

same men are captured by the Bell film looking in the direction of the steam pipe & the switch box."

Now having pointed your error out once again ... are you going to stop posting information that has been repeatedly shown to be in error? Would this continuation on your part be the "FUDGING" that you warned Duncan to be on the watch out for!

So are you calling Sam Holland a xxxx? Holland states clearly that he went immediately to the area, yes immediately is the EXACT word he used on film. I prefer to believe his documented on film accounts than 2nd hand information and altered transcripts.

He said it in the Lane film, so that's the story I believe.

In fact, somewhere I have read that Holland had said that it took him several minutes to get back behind the fence where the shot was heard.

Don't believe everything you read. Documented film evidence exists as as I have shown which gives his true story. You simply turn a blind eye to the Lane film because it contradicts with Ed Hoffman's account

Miles, this is where your taking shortcuts and not actually studying the available evidence ends up making you look like you really do not know much about the things you are talking about. You asked me how I know that Holland is still on the underpass and I am going to tell you ... Holland is the guy in the hat, white shirt and tie seen on the underpass in the Altgens 7 photo, and in Dillard #3 which was taken about one minute after the shooting took place. This is how I know that Sam used a figure of speech to say that he immediately took off for the RR yard. So it isn't just me believing something that I have read, but believing something that I have read in conjunction to the other evidence that I have seen. So if you are going to keep saying how people following the footsteps of the WC, then you might start actually doing a little thorough research of your own so to not set a bad example for all those innocents that might be taken in by the errors you continually make.

You are not sharing information. You are sharing an opinion which needs evidence to back it up

See Tom Dillard's third photo ... do I need to say more???

This image shows the two men at the balustrade (left red arrow) as the limo passes through the underpass.

Later, in under 15 seconds of passed time after the time point of the limo being under the the underpass going through it, the

same men are captured by the Bell film looking in the direction of the steam pipe & the switch box.

Miles, is it not a little self serving for you to tell this forum that the men are looking in the direction of the RR box? Let us examine your powers of observation in this instance. You have two red lines pointing to where you see someone. The fact is that the eastmost line is going to no one. The two men are side by side. I have asked Gary Mack to pull out the best Bell print, which exceeds the muddy print Groden used on his DVD, and to send me something in writing to what he saw. So if I am right, then you are telling us that you not only see someone who in reality is not even there, but you can tell from that deplorable copy print which way they are looking. I find that a bit ridiculous if that ends up being the case.

This means that the these men were looking at the steam pipe at least by 25 seconds after Z-313. Since it would have taken Ed's sniper

at least 25 seconds to reach the steam pipe for the alleged rifle toss, we now can say definitively that Ed's story is not credible.

Another Bell film frame shows individuals beginning to move at a run to the steam pipe from Holland's position at Z-313 just as the limo has passed through

the underpass. This would have put these forerunners who were running ahead of Holland at a view of the steam pipe at under 30 seconds, to catch sight of

the alleged rifle toss, not to mention the subsequent alleged rifle disassembly. Ed's story, concocted from 265 yards away (Bowers was 75 yards away!),

is a dog which simply will not hunt.

I am going to respond to the above quote by pasting something Ken had written on the Hoffman thread ... something that YOU didn't bother acknowledging one way or another. Ken had this to say about Foster; "There is corroboration for some of what Ed Hoffman saw. But, to my knowledge, you and Miles haven’t mentioned it. So here it is. Dallas Police Officer J. W. Foster, who stood on the triple underpass near Sam Holland and others, said that after the shooting he moved to “the end of the viaduct” (where the triple underpass meets the picket fence) at which point somebody told him that some man had run up the railroad tracks from that location.

That’s just what Ed had said. After the shots, his “railroad man” had run up the railroad tracks from the area of the switch box which is at the very same location where Foster’s man had run from, i.e. where the triple underpass meets the picket fence."

Do you care to now finally address the man who Foster saw heading out across the RR yard in the direction that Ed also claimed to have witnessed someone going? How about telling us how it is that no one else mentioned seeing this guy but Foster and Ed Hoffman ... could it be that people were still watching the confusion within the street below?

Bill Miller

Edited July 18, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

Duncan, I take it that you do not bother reading the postings of others because you are so busy with your own research.

Huh?

Mark Bell filmed the limo going into the overpass and then he swings his camera back to the pedestal and then again we see the underpass. What most people will not know is that Bell turned his camera off for a short period before filming the underpass. The traffic seen in the street offers a time-line. I think you will find that the Bell film shows that at least a minute had expired before Bell panned back to the underpass and Holland and the rest are still there.

How can you tell if Holland is there from the Bell film. Grab a frame and point him out to prove your point. Bet you can't

Now unless you figure that someone had altered the Bell film to put Holland back on the underpass - it is wrong for you to pretend that Holland immediately ran into the RR yard.

So are you calling Sam Holland a xxxx? Holland states clearly that he went immediately to the area, yes immediately is the EXACT word he used on film. I prefer to believe his documented on film accounts than 2nd hand information and altered transcripts.

He said it in the Lane film, so that's the story I believe.

In fact, somewhere I have read that Holland had said that it took him several minutes to get back behind the fence where the shot was heard.

Don't believe everything you read. Documented film evidence exists as as I have shown which gives his true story. You simply turn a blind eye to the Lane film because it contradicts with Ed Hoffman's account

Anyway, I wanted to share the information about the Bell film so you can apply it to your future post.

You are not sharing information. You are sharing an opinion which needs evidence to back it up

Duncan

Duncan,

Hello! F U D G E -- A L E R T !!

This image shows the two men at the balustrade (left red arrow) as the limo passes through the underpass.

But! If you closely examine the Bell film frame by frame you will find that the Bell film captures these two men at that position

before the limo enters the shadow cast on to Elm by the triple underpass, which shadow was lying out into Elm considerably east of the

underpass. These men were at their position BEFORE the limo entered the mouth of the underpass.

Later, in under 15 seconds of passed time after the time point of the limo being under the the underpass going through it, the

same men are captured by the Bell film looking in the direction of the steam pipe & the switch box.

This means that the these men were looking at the steam pipe at least by 25 seconds after Z-313. Since it would have taken Ed's sniper

at least 25 seconds to reach the steam pipe for the alleged rifle toss, we now can say definitively that Ed's story is not credible.

Another Bell film frame shows individuals beginning to move at a run to the steam pipe from Holland's position at Z-313 just as the limo has passed through

the underpass. This would have put these forerunners who were running ahead of Holland at a view of the steam pipe at under 30 seconds, to catch sight of

the alleged rifle toss, not to mention the subsequent alleged rifle disassembly. Ed's story, concocted from 265 yards away (Bowers was 75 yards away!),

is a dog which simply will not hunt.

Duncan, if you're not careful, these deceitful fudge artists will traduce you & an innocent public in the best traditions of the Warren Commission.

Duncan,

On the assumption that you do not have frame by frame of the Bell, here's a small addendum:

Mark Bell's film shows a continuity brake at a few seconds after he pans right after shooting the limo passing under the triple underpass.

Bell's continuity resumes in a few seconds & continues until the balustrade spectators (left red arrow) are seen in a few more seconds looking at the steam pipe.

In other words, the 25 seconds is accurate for the steam pipe to be under scrutiny & in view. Even so, the time required by Ed's alleged sniper to wend & pick

his way through the sea of cars can be estimated to be 60 seconds. Note, there was no free passage along the fence, by the fence, as Holland reported that the cars were

parked close up to the fence.

It has been estimated that this image occurred 60 seconds after the shooting stopped. If that is correct, then the red arrow man is in position to see, and has

been in position to see the alleged rifle toss and, of course, the alleged subsequent movement to the switch box for the disassembly & hiding of the rifle in the tool box.

A fudge has been attempted in claiming that Bell's stopping his camera inserted eon's of time elapse into the continuity time sequencing.

The continuity brake was only seconds.

Duncan, sweets are addictive. Fudge is a sweet. Beware!

[Bill Miller]

A fudge has been attempted in claiming that Bell's stopping his camera inserted eon's of time elapse into the continuity time sequencing.

The continuity brake was only seconds.[/b]

Miles, you are making an XXX out of yourself for nothing. Check with Groden, Mack, or anyone else who actually has studied these films. Check the timing of the camera cars finally making it passed the knoll. You may recall that the motorcade had stopped momentarily. And just so you know ... you have used the term "eons of time" which can be construed to mean countless various periods of time. This part of the problem with you and your thinking Holland immediately ran off the underpass. Go to the photographical record and learn it - its time sequence - and then come back and intelligently debate the evidence if you like, but stop misstating the evidence when it is obvious that you have not bothered to check out any of the information being offered to you. This is supposed to be an "Education Forum" - not the Miles version of the "Gong Show". Sooner or later one of the administrators is going to see what you are doing and call you on it. Maybe Andy and John can open up a forum debate where no one needs to have the facts straight and can purposely just say anything regardless of its accuracy, but I don't think that is acceptable here.

Bill Miller

Edited July 20, 2007 by Antti Hynonen

[Bill Miller]

Additional information requested .... Gary Mack answered me back with the following ....

"You asked me to review the Bell film for certain information. His first post-assassination sequence shows JFK in the underpass and his SS car just entering the shadow. Since it took 9 seconds for JFK to reach the underpass, and it only takes five seconds or less to drive through it, I would estimate the time to be +15 seconds at the most.

Using a frame blowup off the original film, I can see two men on the north end of the underpass near the fence. One is wearing a white shirt and the other, standing immediately to his left, is wearing a yellow shirt. Both men appear to be facing to the west at that moment.

As I mentioned on the phone, Dillard 3, shot from Elm & Houston from camera car 3 and looking toward the underpass, shows Sam Holland still on top of the underpass over the south lane. The timing of that picture has long been established as about 40 seconds or more after Z313. "

[Miles Scull]

Everything you say is true Miles. Fudge Fudge And More Fudge. [The men you point the red arrows to simply confirm the absurdity of the rifle toss. It's my guess that Bill feels he must maintain a sense of loyalty with Ed because of his "celebrity" status. I do feel Ed did see something, but it was not as he has described over the years. As you said Miles, the dog don't hunt, and if it did it caught on to the wrong scent.

Duncan

Antti Hynonen, Jul 16 2007, 08:46 PM :

I'd like to remind the active poster's of this thread that insults and smart remarks do very little in terms of advancing research and cooperation. Ms. Beckett explained to you what the PM function does and how it works normally. Those of you experiencing trouble with this function may want to ensure that the system you are using is functioning properly. From what I understand, the PM functions normally with most members computers.

Some things are better said in PM's than on the open Forum.

I will be monitoring this thread closely for the next couple of days to make sure posts are appropriate.

Duncan,

I got a PM that Miller had called me an "XXX". I need hardly to remind you that this type of personal attack & abuse is Miller's inevitable response to losing a debate.

It is Miller's constant forum behaviour which is his constant violation of forum rules, which in the past has gotten Miller expelled from other respected forums.

Is our forum not respected? Wonder why?

Miller has been warned repeatedly by Antti Hynonen, that insults made by Miller (or anyone) directed toward other members will result in Miller being required to

submit his forum posts to moderators or John Simkin so that they can be pre-screened for insults & abuse.

Well, Duncan, is Antti going to stand up?

Edited July 20, 2007 by Antti Hynonen

[Miles Scull]

Maybe Andy and John can open up a forum debate where no one needs to have the facts straight and can purposely just say anything regardless of its accuracy, but I don't think that is acceptable here.

Bill Miller

You're way out of order Bill. You are trying to weasel in with the Admin on this forum just the same way you weaseled with Debs to get me banned from Lancer. You are directing the exact same call on Admin tactics towards Miles that you did on Lancer in an effort to get him banned or monitored. It's sickening to see you acting like this again. I am on the side of the Miles facts in this thread, and on the side of truth. You continually call on people to only post facts. Miles has posted the facts as he sees them, and his research has been immaculate and accurate. The Bell film has no exact timing gap measurement, it's just a guess, and you damn well know it, so cut the crap and try posting with reference to the topic in hand instead of acting like an overgrown baby and calling on Admim for your dummy. Admin have already stated that they are monitoring this thread. All they need to do is go to Lancer and see the thread which got me banned to find out how devious you really are.

Duncan

Duncan,

You make an excellent point. Hadn't thought it.

Yes, let Antti or John Simkin look over Miller's abusive behaviour on other forums. See: http://jfkresearch.com/

Let Shelby Della Rosa, the Webmaster & forum leader over there give his account.

So, Miller's real motive is to eliminate, by dirty tricks, those who PROVE him wrong? Just so he can boast that he is right, without interference, when he is obviously wrong?

Let John & Andy look over at Lancer, to see what's being repeated here, now.