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History and War !

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To those of you who become upset at somewhat dijointed writing, you may wish to evacuate this thread !

I personally feel, although I don't know how many may fully agree, that the study of History is for the most part, a study of the recording throughout the ages, of the effects of power, warfare, and the threat or effects that warfare has had upon the various civilizations.

Throughout the world there are millions of degreed historians and teachers of history. Most of these millions, at least those who have studied the History of England, would answer similarly if asked what do you find important regarding the years 1215 and 1776.

However, again IMO, being able to "document" certain events, is of no more value than a geography student "parroting" the capitol and demographics of a particular geographic region.

I do not think that this type of "study" in any way relates to "understanding"....which I feel is the "purpose of study".

In an attempt to somewhat illuminate a point with which I am having a great deal of difficulty, let me state that the importance of the documents referred to as the Magna Carta and the U.S. Declaration of Independence, would at this point in time, have no significance, if the messages of these documents were not supported and fortified by force and power. It is the actual and acknowledged physical force and power which supported these documents that has given them significance and their distinguished place in history. Their success has been a testament to the power which has reinforced them.

Preparing for, the actual conduct of, and the results of WAR, are IMHO, what have defined history even before it was actually recorded. Even myths and legends such as Beowulf...Ulysees...Troy...David and Goliath...are based on the results of warfare.

The reason that I have introduced this thread, is that although there are millions of academics who can quote historical dates and events and their long concluded meanings, there are few who place in a position of prominence, the historical "effects" of warfare on all aspects of civilization. Military tactics and strategy, are elements of history that have experienced but little basic change during the past three thousand years; have impacted the whole of history, but are little studied, except by those holding or preparing to hold ranked positions in an military establishment.

Without effective force there are no governments...only anarchy can exist unless one is able to navigate their way to Utopia.

For a constitutional government to be changed from what has been established by its founding documents and legal ammendments, by ANY means not contained therein, is illegal and its success can only be contemplated thru guaranteed complete control of power.

The enforceable power source within a government resides completely with those having the methods and means of completely controlling the military and law enforcement capabilities within that government by methods, which "APPEAR TO BE", established by those principles and documents upon which the government was founded.

This is exactly what occurred on 11/22/63 ! A successful Coup d' Etat requires military action..... even if that action is accomplished only by the "knowledge of" its physical presence and acknowledged force. I consider this "coup" no different than a "civil war". However a war in which the "losers" did not realize that they were engaged until long after they were defeated.

Some of you have question my determination, motivation, and even possibly my patriotism. The reason for all of the preceding words in this thread is that I am stating that the "OLD USA", in 1963 was defeated by an unnamed entity; in a civil war in which the "losers" never realized was being conducted.....and the "OLD USA" no longer exists.

I am not preaching defeatism....I am stating something that many of you will find even more intolerable. I am stating that "MY U.S." has been defeated for 43 years. We can now however, if we care to admit it, name the agression and most of the agressors that defeated us, and realize how simply and methodically that they have done so.

Military History has always involved much more than overt force. Covertness and its modern acknowledgemet as "Stealth" has always played a prominent role in military activity.

To those of you who thrust out your chests and loudly shout "We have not yet begun to fight"; I say that you are living an illusion.

I think the facts of military history that can currently be "truthfully written", is that those who took control 43 years ago are in much more control now than then! They hold the strongly reinforced high ground, and have complete air, sea, and ground control, and are further reinforced by an ever growing propaganda capability !

"Defeatist" or "Realist" ? I don't suppose it matters what I am called ! I realize ILLEGAL AND UNWANTED CHANGE, and I DETEST IT !

I was born and reared in the "Old Pompei"; which I loved respected and was willing to die for. I do not recognize or am I able to navigate thru this "reconstruction"....which is not even a facsimile!

No ! I have not "quit" ! I have merely "REALIZED"!

I have heard a lot of patriotic rhetoric, tho the only true action that I have seen, was what was undertaken by Jim Garrison.

Since we do not act, I suppose that our military strategy is to "Blind them with our Brilliance"!

NO ! You are absolutely correct....I have no solution or plan of action....but that isn't the really bad news. The really bad news is that "NO


Charles Black

P.S. I wonder if the oracle at Delphi is still oracling?

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A couple of fundamental issues: Military tactics and strategy.

For a long time wars were fought face to face. This meant that the person one killed or maimed was within reach. It was an immediate experience and as such it was also 'assimmilated' or dealt with by the combatants in real time, then and there, and in the aftermath of battle. This meant that there was a mental resolution that generally occurred for the combatants enabling them to, when the war was over, to return to society with a balanced mind.

Tactics and strategies started to change when long range warfare became possible. The combatant who drops a bomb or fires a long range missile is forced into a kind of dissociative psychosis. After WWI and growing till today, the combatants have more and more post war traumas that often are not recognised and dealt with. There are studies in this area from wars in the early europe till recent wars that show that as the combatants become more separate and more simply statistics, mental health problems increase. So a society that engages in highly technical warfare, where the leader is no longer on the battle field, and the combatants never see the person he/she may kill, there is no closure. So this type of society spirals into psychosis from the top down.

WWI was in parts one of the last wars that had remnants of a kind of honor between combatants, where friendships and expressions of respect between hostile forces frequently were displayed, such as giving honourable burials to a respected opponent.

Much of this is denied today and the top Generals never see blood. Yet they are, and cannot escape the fact that they are, responsible for death.

With the advent of the atomic, neutron, hydrogen etc bombs and the new weapons of mass destruction such as EMP, metal dust bombs and the use of remote viewing like satellites etc. modern warfare has strategies previously undreamt of, plus the attendant increase in lack of closure. The scale of atrocities increase dramatically and the responsibility is not acknowledged. To wit the dispassionate slaughter of hundreds of thousands retretating Iraqi troops after Kuwait.

One could say war has gained a life of its own that is a beast out of control and the more it is out of control the more out of control it becomes.


Proudhon: "property is theft" - territory always belonged to someone else at some time.


Kennedy was one of the last significant leaders who sought to keep the need for disarmament on the agenda becuse he recognised fully the possibility for a world at war would likely spell the end of humanity. He had first hand experience of war. Bush is a coward who hides behind rhetoric and the soldiers in Iraq and elsewhere. The leaders of countries who want to fight wars should really be locked in a room, and not let out till they have fought it out themeselves.

So what is the solution? Absent some sort of epiphany happening within the rulers, the non violent strategies of people like Ghandi, Lennon and King and people realising that they can say no, I will not do this killing for those who set themselves up as one's ruler, and the strengthening of the non aligned nations and the setting up of separate alternative relationship structures by nations and populations that supplant the IMF and other such groupings, plus an increase in the agitation highlighting, reminding people of the danger of nuclear energy and nuclear weapons, and their removal from the face of the earth.


There is an interesting theory to do with left right brain relationship and cosciousness evolution which contends something to the effect that during the greek empire, people 'lived' in the left half of the brain and the right was a repository of the mystical. Gradually consciousness spread to encompass the whole brain and attendant with this came 'conscience'.

The reading of the Iliad and other early greek texts are remarkable in the absence of the person being involved in events. Rather they are dispassionate series of acts in concert with such as the oracles. There appears to have been a secret society that (possibly through the influence of descendants of the ambassadors Guatama, the Buddha, sent off to wander in all directions spreading the 'path', reaching greece at this time. Early it was a wisdom kept by the select few. The symbol being the sword of Democles and the gordian knot with the knots represented by two intertwined snakes and a mirror with wings at the top. This has now become a symbol of medicine.

"It is also not unusual for swords to represent reason - as in "cutting through" a series of elements in a problem in order to leave only those with proven relevance, most famously of Alexander the Great cutting the Gordian Knot."

"The knot may in fact have been a religious knot-cipher guarded by Gordium's priests and priestesses. Robert Graves suggested that it may have symbolized the ineffable name of Dionysus that, enknotted like a cipher, would have been passed on through generations of priests and revealed only to the kings of Phrygia."

Germans, in the 18th century, brought the first european translation of the Vedas to Europe and the Theosophists talked about this process in various ways.

Basically it's about a balance of mind that when achieved, the twin snakes, or Kundalini, rise, vibrating in union, severing the gordian knots, physically placed in the spinal cord but mentally experienced as a series of epiphanies, the conclusion being the light of the mirror taking flight and the deepest ignorance of reality as it is being uncovered. IOW enlightenment.

Alexander the great is said to have done this and in dying was freed from the cycle of ignorance.

This 'secret' knowledge is poorly understood in the west which continually ties knots rather that undoing them.

It's a bit like suspending something from a string and twirling it. A moment comes when the tension in the string is such that a sudden resolution of the stress is effected by the string forming a knot. Continuing to twist the string causes one after an other of knots to form untl even if one stops the the twisting and releases the string to hang freely it does not unravel.

The wisdom kept 'secret' was how to, by equanimity and surrender of ego, to what is, rather than what one desires it to be, the unraveling or severing of the knots occur.

Western society is kept in a delicate balance with the masses of people a bundle of knots. The pure form of the wisdom was retained by a series of teachers in Burma and Ceylon, passing on 'the Dhamma', untainted by mysticism and ritual, to today, and a rapidly growing, often with origins in the hippie trails of India during the sixties, spread of this is happening worldwide today. Once it touches the lives of significant rulers one may see a change happening in the world. (keywords: S. N. Goenka, Vipassana)


Edited by John Dolva
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