Could this be David Morales in Dealey Plaza?

[Charles Drago]

Morales had quite dark skin.

This is him below on the right during a basketball game.

James

Is there a more compelling, complex character in this story -- including LHO?

A man of extraordinary courage and significant intellect ... a man of color ... a descendant of the oppressed ... twisted by and taking orders from his Caucasian masters as far back as high school.

Do not misread me. One needn't be a person's "fan" to appreciate greatness -- even when it is placed in service to the dark side.

I do not know of a more disheartening example of the Stockholm Syndrome than DSM advocating for his captors -- those who ultimately became his killers.

Who talent-spotted this guy? How did he enter the secret world? Too many gaps, too many counter-intuitions in this story.

The widow Morales was said to have lived in Boston for a time. What tales might his family have to tell? Any notion of their whereabouts?

Where do we find such men?

Charles

Charles

Edited June 27, 2007 by Charles Drago

[Myra Bronstein]

Morales had quite dark skin.

This is him below on the right during a basketball game.

James

Is there a more compelling, complex character in this story -- including LHO?

A man of extraordinary courage and significant intellect ... a man of color ... a descendant of the oppressed ... twisted by and taking orders from his Caucasian masters as far back as high school.

Do not misread me. One needn't be a person's "fan" to appreciate greatness -- even when it is placed in service to the dark side.

I do not know of a more disheartening example of the Stockholm Syndrome than DSM advocating for his captors -- those who ultimately became his killers.

Who talent-spotted this guy? How did he enter the secret world? Too many gaps, too many counter-intuitions in this story.

The widow Morales was said to have lived in Boston for a time. What tales might his family have to tell? Any notion of their whereabouts?

Where do we find such men?

Charles

Charles

Thanks to the CIA sociopaths no longer have to be outcasts.

They are gainfully employed in government; our tax dollars in action.

[Charles Drago]

Myra,

Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a sociopath to your door.

Whatever the hell that means.

Seriously (and again, for the love of God please don't conclude that I harbor the slightest admiration for DSM), given what we know of ARTICHOKE and MK/ULTRA and similar operations, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that "talent" still "in neutral" can be spotted and shifted to a specific end of the light spectrum.

The recruitment, indoctrination, and professional develoment, if you will, of DSM are for me extremely important areas of study. I suppose it's the nature v. nurture debate in yet another formulation, but everything we can learn about how this frankenstein was built can help us put an end to the building.

If you recall, one of the most intriguing and impervious-to-revelation aspects of the entire Kim Philby affair was the search for the recruiter of the Cambridge ring. There would be no DSM, no H. A. R. Philby, without the talent spotters.

And make no mistake; they're at work to this day.

Charles

[Charles Drago]

Myra,

Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a sociopath to your door.

Whatever the hell that means.

Seriously (and again, for the love of God please don't conclude that I harbor the slightest admiration for DSM), given what we know of ARTICHOKE and MK/ULTRA and similar operations, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that "talent" still "in neutral" can be spotted and shifted to a specific end of the light spectrum.

The recruitment, indoctrination, and professional develoment, if you will, of DSM are for me extremely important areas of study. I suppose it's the nature v. nurture debate in yet another formulation, but everything we can learn about how this frankenstein was built can help us put an end to the building.

If you recall, one of the most intriguing and impervious-to-revelation aspects of the entire Kim Philby affair was the search for the recruiter of the Cambridge ring. There would be no DSM, no H. A. R. Philby, without the talent spotters.

And make no mistake; they're at work to this day.

Charles

[John Dolva]

Charles: "Who talent-spotted this guy? How did he enter the secret world?"

Capt Bradley Ayers > Eglin Air Force Base > Special Activities Group > Paragon Air Service > Key Biscayne > Zenith Technical Enterprises > south campus Miami University > David Sanchez Morales, alias "the Big Indian"????

[Charles Drago]

John,

Interesting, but ...

I'm most interested in the immediate post-high school years. I'll re-read Twyman, where we find the lengthiest (not to be confused with "most revealing") discussion of DSM's past.

How did this guy attract the attention of his ultimate masters? My educated guess is that it happened early -- very early -- in the game. Was it a combination of physical size, athletic ability, above-average IQ, criminal record/tendencies, pwsychological testing results?

Or is it simply a matter of fire water seeking its own level?

Charles

[James Richards]

Charles,

The so-called official record may hold a clue. In 1944, at a time of war, Morales was rejected for Army recruitment but in 1946, at a time of peace, he was finally accepted.

In 1948 he is in college and in the early 1950's is serving in Korea.

I submit he was indeed accepted in 1944 and because of a certain psyche profile, was trained as a new breed of field operative. His college years I believe were to educate him in the way of government and foreign relations.

According to someone who was very close to him, Morales did not serve in Korea at all so the cover story was being laid down here.

I believe Morales was fast tracked through Intel operations and inserted in the newly formed CIA where he went about his covert operations with great success. One of these successes being the Guatemala operation under the name of Vincent Pivall who received a glowing report from Rip Robertson.

For some strange reason, the Pink Floyd song, 'Dogs Of War' springs to mind here.

James

[Charles Drago]

James,

Most significant. Many thanks.

My instincts vis a vis DSM direct me to the origins of his secret world persona. This all leads to some very dark and little understood areas.

Traditional talent spotting within the hidden realm, as we've come to understand it from scholarship and informed fiction, tells only half the story. Likely subjects for turning and burning (via various forms of blackmail, for instance -- honeytraps, etc.) and the efforts to do so fall on the material or prosaic side of the equation.

Spotting malleable psyches (or, for some of us, consciences or even consciousnesses) is another matter.

Were the reasons behind DSM's rejection for service flagged by/for a spotter looking for that rare combination of sociopathy, physical endurance, and mental acuity?

Nurture v. nature ... here we go again.

Or is it even deeper?

Find the mechanisms and its mechanics who spotted, recruited, trained, and aimed DSM, and you find a wormhole into the heart of darkness.

Charles

Edited July 3, 2007 by Charles Drago

[James Richards]

Charles,

I agree. There is an ugliness to this that very few folk comprehend, or indeed, want to comprehend. It is hidden within the shadows of shadows.

The alleged reason for Morales' initial rejection for service was due to an enlarged heart, what ever that means. I suspect this was added later to help explain his sudden heart attack in 1978.

"Dogs of war and men of hate

With no cause we don't discriminate

discovery is to be disowned

our currency is flesh and bone

hell opened up and went on sale

gather round and haggle

for hard cash we will lie and deceive

even our masters don't know the webs we weave."

(David Gilmour and Anthony Moore)

James

[Gene Kelly]

James/Charles:

What you ponder and desribe is the "Dark Side of the Moon" -- gene

[Charles Drago]

Gene,

I've read worse descriptions of the territory we would explore.

Not to mention at least one other earthly area so labeled

The best guidebook(s) so far: Peter Levenda's Sinister Forces trilogy.

Charles

[Duke Lane]

Now I'm more inclined to believe that Babushka Lady was in fact Betty Oliver. She would have had the connections to put here at the scene with a camera.

Do you have a (humble ) opinion on Babushka Lady's identity James?

Myra, as a female - and I've oft been told that there are only a very few things a guy shouldn't ask a woman, this perhaps being one of them - do you have any opinion about women's ankles? Do they change with age or fluctuations in weight? If they are fat or straight today, might they be "slim and shapely" tomorrow?

This was an issue Mary Farrell had raised some years ago, that TBL's ankles are fat while Beverly's are not, and that time and weight do not change that. That's been my observation as well since then (I'd never noticed ankles before then, actually). Mary nevertheless conceded in front of a couple of dozen people (most with agendas?) that it was "possible" that BO was TBL and that Mary now chose to believe that to be the case.

Despite that - and being there for that - I've never been convinced....

[Gene Kelly]

Charles:

Thanks for the reference on Levenda. What I was playfully referring to is the music of Pink Floyd, and their classic album "Dark Side of the Moon", one of my favorites. -- gene

[Peter Fokes]

A tall man in a light suit jacket carrying an overcoat in his right hand walked from west to east across the knoll a short while after the assassination. A crowd had gathered on Elm by the time the man walked across the knoll. Folks were milling on and off the sidewalk on the west side of the sign. I believe they were gathered around a police motorcycle. I posted a cropped photo of him on alt.assassination.jfk years ago and will see if I can dig it up.

This is the only person I'm aware of who walked across the knoll as you describe with a jacket or coat in his hand. But he's clearly not the Morales lookalike being discussed.

Edit: The image is a bmp image, and I've been informed by the forum software that this extension is not allowed.

But trust me, it's not the same person.

Hi Ron,

Sorry for long delay! I cannot comment on your photo without seeing it.

The Jim Murray photo mentioned in my post is published on page 608 of Pictures of the Pain by Trask. The tall man is carrying a jacket in his right hand and his left arm is raised with his wrist against his left ear. The jacket appears to be darker than I remembered. You can see the crowd milling about on the Elm St. sidewalk.

Regards

Peter Fokes

[Peter Fokes]

Ron, I did ponder the resemblance to Pash but figured one comparison at a time. There is also that guy seen at Parkland with LBJ and Youngblood who resembles Pash.

Russ, thanks for the flipped image, much better.

Bill, Morales from what I can gather was in the 6' 2', maybe 6' 3" range.

Peter, I'm not sure what the time frame for the photograph would be but as an estimate, maybe 15 - 20 minutes after the shooting. Murray took the images of Buddy Walthers looking for something on the grass area ten minutes after the assassination so I guess we can work from there.

As to plotters being present at the scene, Morales wasn't known to anyone in the wider community and he was his own man at JM/WAVE. I have lots of stories of him exercising his autonomy - he was arrogant and feared no one.

Given that things were not going to plan post shooting, then I submit that the plotters were scrambling to get things back on track.

James

Hi James,

I didn't realize at the time of my first post on this thread that I was also referring to a Jim Murray photo.

See page 608 in Trask's Pictures of the Pain. The tall man in middle of photo at top of page is carrying a jacket with left hand behind his head and wrist pressed against his ear.

Sorry for delay.

Chow.

Peter Fokes