Who Killed JFK?: Poll and Discussion?

[Mark Knight]

I, too, feel that LBJ may have had some prior knowledge of the assassination, but it's fairly obvious that he wasn't one of the major players before the fact. In fact, the evidence as I understand it implies that, while LBJ may have known it was coming, he was only informed on a "need-to-know" basis...as far as exactly where [he may have known it would happen in Dallas, but I doubt he knew that Dealy Plaza was the location], I believe LBJ was kept in the dark for security reasons...the fewer who knew specific details, the less chance of a leak.

But I'm leaning toward the EXECUTIVE SANCTION idea more each day, though more for reasons having to do with nuclear weapons than any other reason.

If they really ARE out to get you, does that mean you're NOT paranoid?

[Ron Ecker]

after Kennedy entered Texas, his life was in the deadly hands of 'extremist veteran riflemen' of Walker's former Munich, Germany 24th Infantry Command.

Harry,

You have said in the past that the John Birch Society hired Eladio del Valle and Loran Hall to shoot JFK. Is it your view that these two and Walker's riflemen were used in combination as the hit team?

Ron

[Harry J.Dean]

after Kennedy entered Texas, his life was in the deadly hands of 'extremist veteran riflemen' of Walker's former Munich, Germany 24th Infantry Command.

Harry,

You have said in the past that the John Birch Society hired Eladio del Valle and Loran Hall to shoot JFK. Is it your view that these two and Walker's riflemen were used in combination as the hit team?

Ron

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi, Ron

I have answered this in e-mails to you as you know. The facts of what I said are in the 1990 manuscript/book mentioned. Other statements made before and/or after that are by 'other{s'}.

Harry

[Shanet Clark]

Regular readers and members will know what I have to say:

An Executive Sanction was imposed on John F. Kennedy by the national security clearance granting agencies. A group of executives, including JCS chief Maxwell Taylor, (an associate of General Edwin Walker), Republican Treasury Secretary Clarence Douglass Dillon (overall head of the Secret Service), John McCone of CIA, Mr. John McCloy with Fred Korth and Robert Anderson (former Navy Secretaries) and Allen Dulles, were privy to John Kennedy's surveillance files, and declared him unfit, or incapacitated, and removed him from office, physically.

Mary Pinchot Meyer's LSD, JFK's sexual contact with foreign agents, his Addison's disease and his other 1960s Hollywood style activities made JFK's security clearance lapse, and he was removed in a bloody coup, which was then covered up by the CIA and FBI, with the consent of the new President Johnson.

Although it was a joint agency executive sanction, the CIA was not the principle, the military intelligence agencies were, specifically the ONI, which had records on Kennedy back to WWII, and the NSA, which wiretapped and photographed him.

This is the only theory that fits all the facts.................

Edited June 4, 2005 by Shanet Clark

[Tim Gratz]

And those facts are, Shanet?

Man, you accuse one of JFK's closest friends, the Secretary of the Treasury, of complicity in his murder, but you can't even spell his name correctly!

I mean it's one thing to accuse the man of murder without a SHRED of evidence, but to misspell his name just adds insult to injury. I for one would never accuse anyone of murder unless I was certain of the spelling of his or her name.

Dillon's biography here:

http://www.medaloffreedom.com/CDouglasDillon.htm

* * * * * * * * * *

I would also be interested in your basis for asserting that John McCloy had access to confidential surveillance files on JFK.

Edited June 6, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Shanet Clark]

And no centurion ever raised a spear against a ceasar

and poison was never used in any palace.

[David G. Healy]

Tim wrote:

And those facts are, Shanet?

Man, you accuse one of JFK's closest friends, the Secretary of the Treasury, of complicity in his murder, but you can't even spell his name correctly!

what? one of his closest friends - come on, rofl -- you want to know anything about Dillon Read -- catch up with Robert Sobel and his publications, taught at Hofstra University for years died in '98(?), and a great great guy. The best, when you needed a Wall Street Historian so said NBC and CNBC. 'THE' leading expert when it came to Dillon-Read and on a first name basis with Mr. Dillon

I mean it's one thing to accuse the man of murder without a SHRED of evidence, but to misspell his name just adds insult to injury. I for one would never accuse anyone of murder unless I was certain of the spelling of his or her name.

I believe the poster said "theory". Did I spell that right?

Dillon's biography here:

http://www.medaloffreedom.com/CDouglasDillon.htm

* * * * * * * * * *

be nice if the article went into how much Dillon Read [the company] made while screwing the American Investor during the Gold Dollar Bond scandals post WW1 [1924-1935].

When one thinks about it, the OSS didn't have far to go when forming their foreign service ranks - just look to Wall Street firms. Which reminds me, some would say the bond scandals were the driving force for the creation of the SEC (Securites Exchange Commission) first headed by none other than Joseph P. Kennedy

I would also be interested in your basis for asserting that John McCloy had access to confidential surveillance files on JFK.

[Tim Gratz]

David wrote:

what? one of his closest friends - come on, rofl

Do you dispute that C. Douglas Dillon was a close friend of JFK? That is incredible!

Your opinion of Dillon's business ethics, of course, tells us nothing of the relationship between JFK and Dillon.

Have any of you folks who are so interested in solving the assassination of JFK read the basic biographies of him, e.g. Sorenson, Schlesinger, Reeves?

Edited June 8, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Tim Gratz]

Shanet wrote:

Although it was a joint agency executive sanction, the CIA was not the principle, the military intelligence agencies were, specifically the ONI, which had records on Kennedy back to WWII, and the NSA, which wiretapped and photographed him.

Shanet: You are indeed correct that the CIA was not the principal (but you misspelled it: it's "principal" (primary) not "principle" (a belief). The CIA was not even involved; nor were the military intelligence agencies or the NSA.

But you know my scenario.

My principal reason for this post was to indicate that principal, meaning primary, is spelled principal. As a matter of principle, we ought to get these two words sorted out!

[David G. Healy]

David wrote:

what? one of his closest friends - come on, rofl

Do you dispute that C. Douglas Dillon was a close friend of JFK? That is incredible!

presidental politics and you think CLOSE friends exist within the political community. Now THAT'S incredible

Your opinion of Dillon's business ethics, of course, tells us nothing of the relationship between JFK and Dillon.

you dispute Wall Streets involvement in the '24 - '35 GOLD Dollar Bond scandals?

Have any of you folks who are so interested in solving the assassination of JFK read the basic biographies of him, e.g. Sorenson, Schlesinger, Reeves?

why? You think any of the above were involved?

Edited June 8, 2005 by David G. Healy

[Tim Gratz]

The above is a TRULY incredible post! Replete with non sequiturs and the assertion that there are no close friends in politics! Well, what about James Carville and Mary Matalin, both political activists (from opposite ends of the political spectrum) and even closer than close friends.

I told Shanet that C. Douglas Dillon could not have been a conspirator because he was JFK's close friend. It is Mr. Healey's response to assert I am wrong-- not because he has read any of the Kennedy biographies but rather because he asserts there ARE no close friends in politics!

[Shanet Clark]

DGH is exactly 100% right.

The notorious Andrew Mellon era Republican, DILLON, an effort by Kennedy at bipartisanship, was not a close friend of Kennedys

He was rather a political peer and contemporary like Smathers and Symington.

Tim is so naive and he has fond nostalgia which blocks his apprehension of reality.

When given the facts of an executive sanction, this man at treasury followed protocol.

His was not a "hit" an act of personal hatred, he called off the Secret Service and turned over control in dallas for professional reasons, whether or not he "liked" John Kennedy.

The cabinet secretary with the portfolio for protection was the domestic officer named and exonerated in the twenty fifth amendment, I have reason to believe.

Dillon and his father Douglas were the devil, and nothing can be put past them.

DGH is right, it is all about CROMWELL SULLIVAN, DULLES and the ROCKEFELLER DUPONT trusts in the 1925 -1965 generation, the American militant right wingers did play well with their democratic friends and used EVERY PLOY to advance their plans for a neo conservative cold war America, even murder............

and the post war trilateral settlement.

Edited June 9, 2005 by Shanet Clark

[Tim Gratz]

Shanet wrote:

Dillon and his father Douglas were the devil, and nothing can be put past them.

Oh, Shanet, I doubt that either one of them would have ever defaced one of those certificates in elevators the defacement of which is a violation of law!

But now we know the real secret behind the assassination! The devil made them do it! That explains a LOT. The devil was indeed "the big fish"!

Shanet also wrote:

The notorious Andrew Mellon era Republican, DILLON, an effort by Kennedy at bipartisanship, was not a close friend of Kennedys

He was rather a political peer and contemporary like Smathers and Symington.

Shanet, with all due respect, I submit Theodore Sorenson knows a lot more about the relationship between JFK and C Douglas Dillon than you could ever hope to.

I gather from this post you have not even bothered to read the Sorension biography of JFK.

And by the way, Shanet, the name of the prestigious Manhattan law firm is Sullivan and Cromwell (not vice versa as you have it).

And while we are at it, for your information, there were no "neoconservatives" in the 1960s. I doubt whether you even understand the distinction between neoconservatives and paleoconservatives, or how and why the "neocon" movement started.

Respectfully, learn your history before you post.

An aside: I once encountered a photo of Sorenson on the corbis website. It listed Sorenson as an aide to Nixon! Corbis quickly corrected it after the error was drawn to their attention.

Edited June 12, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Christopher T. George]

I thought it might be a good idea to start a thread where we vote and speculate on who killed JFK.

I will start the ball by suggesting the Military Industrial Complex. The operation was a complete success and the group achieved all its objectives. This includes the cover up that involved the implication of several groups and individuals in the plot. One reason for this was to guarantee the help of these individuals and groups in the cover up. This involved implicating LBJ, the CIA, the FBI and the Secret Service. It also involved implicating the Kennedy brothers in other terrible events. This ensured that the Kennedy family and its close associates joined in the cover up. This cover up included both the Warren Commission and the House Select Committee of Assassinations (this involved a change in tactics with the finger now being pointed at the Mafia).

It also included a far more sinister cover up that will have long term implications for the history of the world. I believe that the CIA and FBI were involved in destroying a large number of documents relating to the assassination in November/December, 1963. These were replaced with false documents that have yet to be released. These documents will only become available when all those who are referred to are dead. These documents, because of the fact they have been held back, will be believed to be genuine. They will do two things: (1) They will show that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman. (2) They will link the Kennedy brothers with a series of crimes and wrongdoings, including the murder of Marilyn Monroe. Others smeared will be those associated with what the Military Industrial Complex would refer to as dangerous radicals (Martin Luther King, etc.)

I believe that the people behind the assassination were representatives of what Eisenhower called the Military Industrial Complex. The main objective was to ensure the continuance of the Cold War. To achieve this they had the convince the American public that they faced a real communist threat. The presence of a revolutionary communist government on its doorstep (Cuba) was permanent evidence of this. So also was the presence of WMD in the Soviet Union and China. As in Iraq, we now know the CIA and MI5 exaggerated this threat.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi John

But what would be the advantage of convincing "the American public that they faced a real communist threat"? I would say that the American public in 1963 were utterly convinced they faced a communist threat, having lived through the McCarthy era, the A Bomb threat, the U2 incident, and the Cuban missile crisis. I would think that in 1963 you would be hard put to find an American who did not think they were faced with a Communist threat.

Was there any danger that JFK would suddenly end the Cold War? Of course not. That being so, what would be the need to assassinate JFK on the basis that you are positing? Isn't it probable that the Mafia had more of a grudge against the Kennedys than the CIA with the Kennedys being active in fighting organized crime?

Last, what would be the advantage of any, as you theorize, forged documents once more claiming a lone gunman? You yourself say that the lone gunman scenario has few followers. If there are forged documents ready to produce wouldn't they be more likely to show a multi-gunman conspiracy consistent with the thinking on this forum and the prevalent public view that there was more than one gunman and a conspiracy, contrary to the findings of the discredited Warren Commission report? Wouldn't documents that show all that to be the case be more likely to find ready acceptance?

Just some thoughts from a bystander who was alive in 1963 but who does not claim to be an expert on the Kennedy assassination.

Best regards

Chris George

Edited June 12, 2005 by Christopher T. George

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I thought it might be a good idea to start a thread where we vote and speculate on who killed JFK.

I will start the ball by suggesting the Military Industrial Complex. The operation was a complete success and the group achieved all its objectives. This includes the cover up that involved the implication of several groups and individuals in the plot. One reason for this was to guarantee the help of these individuals and groups in the cover up. This involved implicating LBJ, the CIA, the FBI and the Secret Service. It also involved implicating the Kennedy brothers in other terrible events. This ensured that the Kennedy family and its close associates joined in the cover up. This cover up included both the Warren Commission and the House Select Committee of Assassinations (this involved a change in tactics with the finger now being pointed at the Mafia).

It also included a far more sinister cover up that will have long term implications for the history of the world. I believe that the CIA and FBI were involved in destroying a large number of documents relating to the assassination in November/December, 1963. These were replaced with false documents that have yet to be released. These documents will only become available when all those who are referred to are dead. These documents, because of the fact they have been held back, will be believed to be genuine. They will do two things: (1) They will show that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman. (2) They will link the Kennedy brothers with a series of crimes and wrongdoings, including the murder of Marilyn Monroe. Others smeared will be those associated with what the Military Industrial Complex would refer to as dangerous radicals (Martin Luther King, etc.)

I believe that the people behind the assassination were representatives of what Eisenhower called the Military Industrial Complex. The main objective was to ensure the continuance of the Cold War. To achieve this they had the convince the American public that they faced a real communist threat. The presence of a revolutionary communist government on its doorstep (Cuba) was permanent evidence of this. So also was the presence of WMD in the Soviet Union and China. As in Iraq, we now know the CIA and MI5 exaggerated this threat.

Therefore we have to identify the representatives of the Military Industrial Complex in the government. Their main man was John McCone, Director of the CIA. That is not to say that the assassination of JFK was a CIA operation (although it did use a CIA agent, David Morales, to organize the assassination).

McCone is a classical case of a representative of the Military Industrial Complex. The owner of a small engineering company before the war, between 1942-45 his new company, California Shipbuilding, made $44 million in profits from an investment of $100,000.

After the war McCone was brought into the government and served as Deputy to the Secretary of Defense (1948) and Under Secretary of the Air Force (1950-1951). What did he know about these matters? Only that it was in the best interests of MIC to spend increasing amounts of money on the arms trade. McCone was an ardent Cold War warrior and in 1956 attacked the suggestion made by Adlai Stevenson that there should be a nuclear test ban. McCone accused American scientists of being "taken in" by Soviet propaganda and of attempting to "create fear in the minds of the uninformed that radioactive fallout from H-bomb tests endangers life." Read that quote again if you did not get it the first time. Now that is what I call disinformation.

In 1958 Eisenhower appointed McCone as Chairman of the Atomic Energy commission. After the Bay of Pigs disaster, President John F. Kennedy sacked Allen W. Dulles as Director of the CIA. Under pressure from right-wingers in the intelligence community, Kennedy appointed McCone as the new director.

Morales was put in charge of the assassination. He employed people he had been working with in Miami to undermine the government of Cuba. This included figures in the ant-Castro Cuban community. It also involved American military advisers to groups like Alpha 66. The Cubans believed that the reason for this plot was that after the assassination of JFK, LBJ would order the invasion of Cuba. In fact, this was never the objective. It was part of the overall conspiracy to keep Castro in power. The presence of a communist state so close to the United States helped to reinforce the communist threat and the need for massive arms spending.

The Cubans would obviously feel betrayed when they realised Castro would not be toppled. Those Cubans who knew anything about the assassination had to be got rid of. Soon after the assassination most of this group were sent on a mission to kill Castro and create a reason for the United States to invade Cuba. This group was betrayed to the Cuban Secret Service. As a result they were executed in Cuba. A few Cubans remained. Some of these were the victims of hit men (who had no idea why they were killing them).

I believe one or two of these survived. They, like me, took out an insurance policy. They recorded what they knew about the case and placed the information with lawyers, solicitors, etc. These documents, tapes, etc. were only to be released in event of their dying in suspicious circumstances. These people have become untouchable. They are the only ones who will ever be able to provide any hard evidence of this conspiracy. Even if they do talk, they will only have evidence of a small part of the plot. No one will have information that implicates anyone higher than Morales. The conspiracy was a complete success. Or can we fight back?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

John;

As a first time poster, let me inform you and others that to a reasonable degree of certainty, LHO was the person who pulled the trigger of the weapon that is responsible for the death of JFK.

This does not however indicate that I am of some assumption that he was a "lone nut".

He was not!

All of his actions have meanings, and those who maneuvered him into the position of assassin were a group of the utmost secrecy.

Tom