Michael Hogan

[Jack White]

Thanks, Dixie, for your account, which seems largely accurate.

My memories differ a little:

I thought it was earlier than 2000, but all those conference years merge together.

I have been saying the same things about the guy I met for at least five years,

which would have been since about 2002...and the meeting occurred long before

that, as I recall.

I do not remember it being a year that I was with Fetzer and Mantik. I was with

Fetzer and Mantik in the plaza in 1997, 98 and/or 99, as I recall. I have not been

to the plaza the last three or four anniversaries.

I do not remember Groden being involved.

I have a good memory for faces; the "Miller" I met was not husky with bushy red hair

and a Leno chin. I think I would have remembered that. But as you say, I meet so

many researchers, I could be remembering someone else I met in the plaza who

was in a suit on a hot day carrying a briefcase.

The guy I met told me certain things which do not jibe with the current "Miller".

He told me he was retired as a salesman for a major corporation, and I thought

he looked too young to retire. Now he tells a different story of being a cancer

victim, though he seems robustly healthy. I have known three people with

Hodgkins cancer; none survived. None got $750,000 malpractice settlements.

This may all be much ado about nothing, and explainable. I could be mistaken.

But even so, it is suspicious because of the ongoing personal attacks and other

unexplained activities.

Thanks.

Jack

[Bill Miller]

This is an addendum for Kathy & the other Mods.

This is the exact forum behavior which is currently being practiced by Miller. This shows that this behavior of Miller's is systemic with & endemic to Miller. The only thing that changes is Miller's victim. Hogan, Jack, EBC, me. Who's next?

Looks like someone is in need of a diaper chance and given his pacifier.

Here is one of the examples I used in showing Jack's 'Moorman in the street' claim was wrong by his own words.

In the same pages, Jack had written that the Muchmore film showed Hill and Moorman standing in the street. For those trollers who don't know the photographical record - the shadows in the bottom right hand side of the Altgens 6 photo belong to Mary Moorman, Jean Hill and Mary Moorman. In those days, as to some extent today, if Jack knows his agrument is about to unravel ... he gets mad and will refuse to respond/debate the evidence against him. This is exactly why in the past I have first asked an innocent question to get Jack locked down before pointing out his error.

Bill Miller

Edited July 2, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

Thanks, Dixie, for your account, which seems largely accurate.

My memories differ a little:

I thought it was earlier than 2000, but all those conference years merge together.

I have been saying the same things about the guy I met for at least five years,

which would have been since about 2002...and the meeting occurred long before

that, as I recall.

I do not remember it being a year that I was with Fetzer and Mantik. I was with

Fetzer and Mantik in the plaza in 1997, 98 and/or 99, as I recall. I have not been

to the plaza the last three or four anniversaries.

I do not remember Groden being involved.

I have a good memory for faces; the "Miller" I met was not husky with bushy red hair

and a Leno chin. I think I would have remembered that. But as you say, I meet so

many researchers, I could be remembering someone else I met in the plaza who

was in a suit on a hot day carrying a briefcase.

The guy I met told me certain things which do not jibe with the current "Miller".

He told me he was retired as a salesman for a major corporation, and I thought

he looked too young to retire. Now he tells a different story of being a cancer

victim, though he seems robustly healthy. I have known three people with

Hodgkins cancer; none survived. None got $750,000 malpractice settlements.

This may all be much ado about nothing, and explainable. I could be mistaken.

But even so, it is suspicious because of the ongoing personal attacks and other

unexplained activities.

Thanks.

Jack

"...ongoing personal attacks..."

No kiddin'?

Where, who? Don't tell me there's a pathogenic troller about? Nnnaaaauugh...

It's just all your fault, Jack. Face up to it like a real he-man. Remember you can count on me, ol' fella!

Edited July 2, 2007 by Miles Scull

[Bill Miller]

I have a good memory for faces; the "Miller" I met was not husky with bushy red hair

and a Leno chin. I think I would have remembered that. But as you say, I meet so

many researchers, I could be remembering someone else I met in the plaza who

was in a suit on a hot day carrying a briefcase.

Jack,

It is funny how the thread you started so long ago questioning who I was - had not mentioned that you could have been mistaken. A long time ago when that nonsense went on - I suggested you asking Groden if the guy with the 8 x 10 Dillard negatives was the red headed Miller that Robert knew and today Robert has just told me over the phone that you have not spoken to him about it one time. One would think that after I told you that Robert was there only a short distance away selling his wares and that it was he who pointed you out to me ... that you would have taken that simple step so to not waste any more time talking about something that you must have been mistaken about. You know ... some may have viewed your starting such a thread as a personal attack within itself. Funny how those things work.

The guy I met told me certain things which do not jibe with the current "Miller".

He told me he was retired as a salesman for a major corporation,

Now I could be wrong, but isn't the 'salesman' title a new addition to your story? When you get me worked up to CEO - let me know.

And about Hodgkins disease - survival depends on early detection. Mine was at "Stage 2", which had at that time about a 90% cure rate. If it has spread to the bones as with a "Stage 4", then you are in trouble. Do you know what stages the people you knew were in when diagnosed with cancer?

Bill

Edited July 2, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Dixie Dea]

Bill

..

I didn't mean that Mary Moorman was also there in DP that day. I was just referring to where the guys were doing the measurements, where Mary and Jean had stood.so many years ago.

Also, I don't recall seeing Al Carrier at Lancer that year either. But I did hear he was there the following year (2001) when I also knew that you spoke..and I wasn't there that year. So, I am still thinking you were there in 2000, but maybe didn't speak until the following year. I know it all get sconfusing....:-) After that, I also don't really recall what years different things occurred when I was there. I only recall about 2000, because it was my first trip there.

_________

Dixie

[Dixie Dea]

Jack

I don't believe that Groden was involved with what you guys were doing that day. It was just that I happened to notice him going out towards the parking lot, probably to his Van to get something...and you had just got put of your car and was headed towards the pergola...so the two of you greeted each other.

_________

Dixie

[Jack White]

This is an addendum for Kathy & the other Mods.

This is the exact forum behavior which is currently being practiced by Miller. This shows that this behavior of Miller's is systemic with & endemic to Miller. The only thing that changes is Miller's victim. Hogan, Jack, EBC, me. Who's next?

Looks like someone is in need of a diaper chance and given his pacifier.

Here is one of the examples I used in showing Jack's 'Moorman in the street' claim was wrong by his own words.

In the same pages, Jack had written that the Muchmore film showed Hill and Moorman standing in the street. For those trollers who don't know the photographical record - the shadows in the bottom right hand side of the Altgens 6 photo belong to Mary Moorman, Jean Hill and Mary Moorman. In those days, as to some extent today, if Jack knows his agrument is about to unravel ... he gets mad and will refuse to respond/debate the evidence against him. This is exactly why in the past I have first asked an innocent question to get Jack locked down before pointing out his error.

Bill Miller

When I wrote that I believed Altgens 6 was genuine I had not reached the conclusions

I now hold...ALL ALTGENS IMAGES ARE SUSPECT, AND ALTGENS 8 IS FABRICATED.

Altgens himself denied taking images 5 and 8. Altgens 6 MAY be cropped.

I know of one researcher who has an early Altgens 6 image which he claims HAS MORE

AREA ON THE LEFT HAND SIDE, thus proving that the extant image was cropped. He

refuses to make this public for some reason. I have no idea why he is afraid to show

the image, which would prove fakery...but he says he is waiting for the appropriate time.

He claims the cropped out area contains important information. I hope he can be

proved correct.

Jack

[Bill Miller]

When I wrote that I believed Altgens 6 was genuine I had not reached the conclusions

I now hold...ALL ALTGENS IMAGES ARE SUSPECT, AND ALTGENS 8 IS FABRICATED.

Altgens himself denied taking images 5 and 8. Altgens 6 MAY be cropped.

Jack, you put that claim about that photo being genuine in the same book that you claim Moorman and Hill as being in the street. The fact is that you didn't question the authenticity of that photo until AFTER you became aware that it debunked your 'Moorman in the street' nonsense.

I know of one researcher who has an early Altgens 6 image which he claims HAS MORE

AREA ON THE LEFT HAND SIDE, thus proving that the extant image was cropped. He

refuses to make this public for some reason. I have no idea why he is afraid to show

the image, which would prove fakery...but he says he is waiting for the appropriate time.

He claims the cropped out area contains important information. I hope he can be

proved correct.

Jack

And how long has he been sitting on this alleged claim?

Bill

[Miles Scull]

Thanks, Dixie, for your account, which seems largely accurate.

My memories differ a little:

I thought it was earlier than 2000, but all those conference years merge together.

I have been saying the same things about the guy I met for at least five years,

which would have been since about 2002...and the meeting occurred long before

that, as I recall.

I do not remember it being a year that I was with Fetzer and Mantik. I was with

Fetzer and Mantik in the plaza in 1997, 98 and/or 99, as I recall. I have not been

to the plaza the last three or four anniversaries.

I do not remember Groden being involved.

I have a good memory for faces; the "Miller" I met was not husky with bushy red hair

and a Leno chin. I think I would have remembered that. But as you say, I meet so

many researchers, I could be remembering someone else I met in the plaza who

was in a suit on a hot day carrying a briefcase.

The guy I met told me certain things which do not jibe with the current "Miller".

He told me he was retired as a salesman for a major corporation, and I thought

he looked too young to retire. Now he tells a different story of being a cancer

victim, though he seems robustly healthy. I have known three people with

Hodgkins cancer; none survived. None got $750,000 malpractice settlements.

This may all be much ado about nothing, and explainable. I could be mistaken.

But even so, it is suspicious because of the ongoing personal attacks and other

unexplained activities.

Thanks.

Jack

Hi Kathy,

Just wanted to make sure that you haven't overlooked anything important:

"...ongoing personal attacks..."

If you've already noted this, then pardon the repetition. Maybe you do not consider this important.

Oh, maybe you missed this from Dixie as well:

"After awhile. at that form, Bill seemed to drastically change. In fact, I was seeing that he was baiting Jack for something. I even sensed he was setting him up for the kill. And actually that is what occurred. He did become more beligerant towards Jack. and he was also 86'd because of it."

Again, these things may not be important to you.

On the other hand, maybe you didn't see them.

If you did, then forgive me in a true Christian spirit.

[Bill Miller]

If you did, then forgive me in a true Christian spirit.

Well, one can always count on your responses being void of JFK facts, but at least their getting funnier the more insane your replies get.

Bill

[Miles Scull]

Thanks, Dixie, for your account, which seems largely accurate.

My memories differ a little:

I thought it was earlier than 2000, but all those conference years merge together.

I have been saying the same things about the guy I met for at least five years,

which would have been since about 2002...and the meeting occurred long before

that, as I recall.

I do not remember it being a year that I was with Fetzer and Mantik. I was with

Fetzer and Mantik in the plaza in 1997, 98 and/or 99, as I recall. I have not been

to the plaza the last three or four anniversaries.

I do not remember Groden being involved.

I have a good memory for faces; the "Miller" I met was not husky with bushy red hair

and a Leno chin. I think I would have remembered that. But as you say, I meet so

many researchers, I could be remembering someone else I met in the plaza who

was in a suit on a hot day carrying a briefcase.

The guy I met told me certain things which do not jibe with the current "Miller".

He told me he was retired as a salesman for a major corporation, and I thought

he looked too young to retire. Now he tells a different story of being a cancer

victim, though he seems robustly healthy. I have known three people with

Hodgkins cancer; none survived. None got $750,000 malpractice settlements.

This may all be much ado about nothing, and explainable. I could be mistaken.

But even so, it is suspicious because of the ongoing personal attacks and other

unexplained activities.

Thanks.

Jack

Hi Kathy,

Just wanted to make sure that you haven't overlooked anything important:

"...ongoing personal attacks..."

If you've already noted this, then pardon the repetition. Maybe you do not consider this important.

Oh, maybe you missed this from Dixie as well:

"After awhile. at that form, Bill seemed to drastically change. In fact, I was seeing that he was baiting Jack for something. I even sensed he was setting him up for the kill. And actually that is what occurred. He did become more beligerant towards Jack. and he was also 86'd because of it."

Again, these things may not be important to you.

On the other hand, maybe you didn't see them.

If you did, then forgive me in a true Christian spirit.

Hey Kathy,

Did you just notice yet another example of Miller's

"...ongoing personal attacks..."

this time directed at me?

Well, one can always count on your responses being void of JFK facts, but at least their getting funnier the more insane your replies get.

Just keep following Miller's posts. You'll notice a steady accumulation of abuse. On another thread Miller calls me a Kook, even though I have not replied to any of his posts.

Notice the mounting accumulation. A stray instance of abuse, OK. But this is constant & unremitting from Miller.

[Dixie Dea]

Miles..

I did not post my message to give you ammunition to use against Bill. I am just not knowledgable enough in photo analysis, to know who might be right or wrong, so I usually just avoid it. I do know that Bill is rather acerbic, but I am quite sure that he is also aware of that.....:-) Actually, I wouldn't want anyone to talk to me like that either. However, I will say that he has been a big part of the Lancer Forum for several years now and I believe he is highly regarded there.

__________

Dixie

[Miles Scull]

Miles..

I did not post my message to give you ammunition to use against Bill. I am just not knowledgable enough in photo analysis, to know who might be right or wrong, so I usually just avoid it. I do know that Bill is rather acerbic, but I am quite sure that he is also aware of that.....:-) Actually, I wouldn't want anyone to talk to me like that either. However, I will say that he has been a big part of the Lancer Forum for several years now and I believe he is highly regarded there.

__________

Dixie

Fair enough, Dixie. Sorry to involve you in this dispute. Recently a thread was deleted by John Simkin because Miller's scurrilous & debased attack on Mike Hogan was, quoting John Simkin: "completely unacceptable." Go figure.

Miller is continuing to abuse other members of this forum, despite the pleas of Mods that the forum move on. I am protesting in order to focus Mods attention on what Miller is continuing to do, despite their wishes & in defiance of their wishes.

I do not participate on the Lancer forum, but I do happen to know that at the Lancer adminstration level Miller is NOT held in esteem. Sorry.

[Miles Scull]

Miles,

I want to do the right thing, Miles. and I am going to do what you suggested:

"Before troubling John with a raft of "See, I locked a bad bad," why not first rouse a couple of other sleeping mods for a quick look around for verification."

Isn't patience a goodly virtue of moderation?" These words are from the Immoderate Mod thread that you created, concerning me, a few days ago, and so I am sure you would want them to apply to your case..

The problem that I have is that I guess it's around 2am GMT, so we'll just have to wait.

In Christian spirit,

Kathy

Great Kathy & thanks!

Why not just PM the other Mods & ask them to review Miller's posts in general when they get a chance. They can note that I do not reply directly to Miller in order to hold down conflict as much as is possible.

After a couple of days of going over the relevant posts, then share opinions. Fine. Hopefully, a solution will emerge.

If Miller cuts out the incessant abuse of me & of others, then I'll put a cork in my gob. Why not?

[Guest Mark Valenti]

Anyone who's spent a decent amount of time on internet forums knows that alliances and antagonisms come and go like the wind. Someone who is your avowed nemesis is, next week, your ally. These relationships are removed from direct contact, therefore misinterpretation, annoyance and outright hostility grows like fungus in a petri dish.

Miles and Bill, it's quite possible - really and truly - that you both have more in common than you have in opposition. One thing is for certain, the goal is similar, finding the truth of the JFK assassination. I'm not suggesting that we hold hands and sing Kumbaya, but really, your feud is being whipped into fever pitch over some small details and in how you both perceive each other's posts.

And I'm offering this as someone who has leaped before he looked on occasion, getting into stupid arguments with people because I was sloppy about how I said something or maybe took offense at something prematurely.

This isn't to say that some fisticuffs isn't healthy, on the contrary I believe a robust argument can clear the air faster than "we are the world" false friendship. But I'd be willing to bet that most participants here feel that the flare-up has run its course.