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Michael Hogan


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Thanks, Dixie, for your account, which seems largely accurate.

My memories differ a little:

I thought it was earlier than 2000, but all those conference years merge together.

I have been saying the same things about the guy I met for at least five years,

which would have been since about 2002...and the meeting occurred long before

that, as I recall.

I do not remember it being a year that I was with Fetzer and Mantik. I was with

Fetzer and Mantik in the plaza in 1997, 98 and/or 99, as I recall. I have not been

to the plaza the last three or four anniversaries.

I do not remember Groden being involved.

I have a good memory for faces; the "Miller" I met was not husky with bushy red hair

and a Leno chin. I think I would have remembered that. But as you say, I meet so

many researchers, I could be remembering someone else I met in the plaza who

was in a suit on a hot day carrying a briefcase.

The guy I met told me certain things which do not jibe with the current "Miller".

He told me he was retired as a salesman for a major corporation, and I thought

he looked too young to retire. Now he tells a different story of being a cancer

victim, though he seems robustly healthy. I have known three people with

Hodgkins cancer; none survived. None got $750,000 malpractice settlements.

This may all be much ado about nothing, and explainable. I could be mistaken.

But even so, it is suspicious because of the ongoing personal attacks and other

unexplained activities.

Thanks.

Jack

Hi Kathy,

Just wanted to make sure that you haven't overlooked anything important:

"...ongoing personal attacks..."

If you've already noted this, then pardon the repetition. Maybe you do not consider this important.

Oh, maybe you missed this from Dixie as well:

"After awhile. at that form, Bill seemed to drastically change. In fact, I was seeing that he was baiting Jack for something. I even sensed he was setting him up for the kill. And actually that is what occurred. He did become more beligerant towards Jack. and he was also 86'd because of it."
Again, these things may not be important to you.

On the other hand, maybe you didn't see them. :huh:

If you did, then forgive me in a true Christian spirit. :D

Hey Kathy,

Did you just notice yet another example of Miller's

"...ongoing personal attacks..."

this time directed at me?

Well, one can always count on your responses being void of JFK facts, but at least their getting funnier the more insane your replies get.

Just keep following Miller's posts. You'll notice a steady accumulation of abuse. On another thread Miller calls me a Kook, even though I have not replied to any of his posts.

Notice the mounting accumulation. A stray instance of abuse, OK. But this is constant & unremitting from Miller.

Miles,

I want to do the right thing, Miles. and I am going to do what you suggested:

"Before troubling John with a raft of "See, I locked a bad bad," why not first rouse a couple of other sleeping mods for a quick look around for verification."

Isn't patience a goodly virtue of moderation?" These words are from the Immoderate Mod thread that you created, concerning me, a few days ago, and so I am sure you would want them to apply to your case..

The problem that I have is that I guess it's around 2am GMT, so we'll just have to wait.

In Christian spirit,

Kathy

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Miles..

I did not post my message to give you ammunition to use against Bill. I am just not knowledgable enough in photo analysis, to know who might be right or wrong, so I usually just avoid it. I do know that Bill is rather acerbic, but I am quite sure that he is also aware of that.....:-) Actually, I wouldn't want anyone to talk to me like that either. However, I will say that he has been a big part of the Lancer Forum for several years now and I believe he is highly regarded there.

__________

Dixie

Fair enough, Dixie. Sorry to involve you in this dispute. Recently a thread was deleted by John Simkin because Miller's scurrilous & debased attack on Mike Hogan was, quoting John Simkin: "completely unacceptable." Go figure.

Miller is continuing to abuse other members of this forum, despite the pleas of Mods that the forum move on. I am protesting in order to focus Mods attention on what Miller is continuing to do, despite their wishes & in defiance of their wishes.

I do not participate on the Lancer forum, but I do happen to know that at the Lancer adminstration level Miller is NOT held in esteem. Sorry.

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Miles,

I want to do the right thing, Miles. and I am going to do what you suggested:

"Before troubling John with a raft of "See, I locked a bad bad," why not first rouse a couple of other sleeping mods for a quick look around for verification."

Isn't patience a goodly virtue of moderation?" These words are from the Immoderate Mod thread that you created, concerning me, a few days ago, and so I am sure you would want them to apply to your case..

The problem that I have is that I guess it's around 2am GMT, so we'll just have to wait.

In Christian spirit,

Kathy

Great Kathy & thanks!

Why not just PM the other Mods & ask them to review Miller's posts in general when they get a chance. They can note that I do not reply directly to Miller in order to hold down conflict as much as is possible.

After a couple of days of going over the relevant posts, then share opinions. Fine. Hopefully, a solution will emerge.

If Miller cuts out the incessant abuse of me & of others, then I'll put a cork in my gob. :huh: Why not?

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Guest Mark Valenti

Anyone who's spent a decent amount of time on internet forums knows that alliances and antagonisms come and go like the wind. Someone who is your avowed nemesis is, next week, your ally. These relationships are removed from direct contact, therefore misinterpretation, annoyance and outright hostility grows like fungus in a petri dish.

Miles and Bill, it's quite possible - really and truly - that you both have more in common than you have in opposition. One thing is for certain, the goal is similar, finding the truth of the JFK assassination. I'm not suggesting that we hold hands and sing Kumbaya, but really, your feud is being whipped into fever pitch over some small details and in how you both perceive each other's posts.

And I'm offering this as someone who has leaped before he looked on occasion, getting into stupid arguments with people because I was sloppy about how I said something or maybe took offense at something prematurely.

This isn't to say that some fisticuffs isn't healthy, on the contrary I believe a robust argument can clear the air faster than "we are the world" false friendship. But I'd be willing to bet that most participants here feel that the flare-up has run its course.

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Miles,

I want to do the right thing, Miles. and I am going to do what you suggested:

"Before troubling John with a raft of "See, I locked a bad bad," why not first rouse a couple of other sleeping mods for a quick look around for verification."

Isn't patience a goodly virtue of moderation?" These words are from the Immoderate Mod thread that you created, concerning me, a few days ago, and so I am sure you would want them to apply to your case..

The problem that I have is that I guess it's around 2am GMT, so we'll just have to wait.

In Christian spirit,

Kathy

Great Kathy & thanks!

Why not just PM the other Mods & ask them to review Miller's posts in general when they get a chance. They can note that I do not reply directly to Miller in order to hold down conflict as much as is possible.

After a couple of days of going over the relevant posts, then share opinions. Fine. Hopefully, a solution will emerge.

If Miller cuts out the incessant abuse of me & of others, then I'll put a cork in my gob. :huh: Why not?

Do not consider this an acquiescence. I will do what I will do to take care of this..

And you should be corking your gob now. IMO, this is getting out of hand.

The Immoderate Mod

Edited by Kathy Beckett
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I have thanked David Healy privately for his apology. What was said remains between the two of us, but I was glad to bury the hatchet. I want to take this opportunity to thank him publicly.

To the members that voiced their support for me, I am most grateful.

The moderators closed the other thread for reasons. I've tried to respect that by staying out of this one, but each time Bill Miller mentions me in this thread, it becomes increasingly difficult.

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I have thanked David Healy privately for his apology. What was said remains between the two of us, but I was glad to bury the hatchet. I want to take this opportunity to thank him publicly.

To the members that voiced their support for me, I am most grateful.

The moderators closed the other thread for reasons. I've tried to respect that by staying out of this one, but each time Bill Miller mentions me in this thread, it becomes increasingly difficult.

I'm sure it is difficult when constantly provoked and lied about Mike.

On the other hand the provocateur is simply not to be believed. In so many ways.

:huh:

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Guest Stephen Turner

Hi folks, here's an idea, if you wish to continue insulting each other in this purile manner, please do so by email, or P/M. This thread adds nothing of value to an educational forum, and if it continues I shall, after consultation with my fellow Mods, lock it. After which you may all accuse me of being a Nazi or something....Steve.

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Hi folks, here's an idea, if you wish to continue insulting each other in this purile manner, please do so by email, or P/M. This thread adds nothing of value to an educational forum, and if it continues I shall, after consultation with my fellow Mods, lock it. After which you may all accuse me of being a Nazi or something....Steve.

Threads like this only damage the reputation of the forum. I am tempted to delete the whole thread as I do not have the time to decide which individual insults should be removed. I am also considering putting the worst offenders on permanent moderation. I think this is going to be the only way to control this kind of behaviour.

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Hi folks, here's an idea, if you wish to continue insulting each other in this purile manner, please do so by email, or P/M. This thread adds nothing of value to an educational forum, and if it continues I shall, after consultation with my fellow Mods, lock it. After which you may all accuse me of being a Nazi or something....Steve.

Threads like this only damage the reputation of the forum. I am tempted to delete the whole thread as I do not have the time to decide which individual insults should be removed. I am also considering putting the worst offenders on permanent moderation. I think this is going to be the only way to control this kind of behaviour.

Hear, hear!

I applaud your intervention, at long last. I urge & support this course of putting the worst offenders on permanent moderation, even if that means that I will be placed so. I gladly submit to this stricture if it means the removing of all elements which bring the forum into disrepute. This is a course of repair & improvement that is long overdue.

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Hi folks, here's an idea, if you wish to continue insulting each other in this purile manner, please do so by email, or P/M. This thread adds nothing of value to an educational forum, and if it continues I shall, after consultation with my fellow Mods, lock it. After which you may all accuse me of being a Nazi or something....Steve.

Threads like this only damage the reputation of the forum. I am tempted to delete the whole thread as I do not have the time to decide which individual insults should be removed. I am also considering putting the worst offenders on permanent moderation. I think this is going to be the only way to control this kind of behaviour.

Mike Hogan accepted my apology, which I'm pleased --- this thread has grown into something utterly amazing, do with it as you wish -- thank you, Mike and JohnS..

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(purely IMO) : to reiterate: locking a thread will automatically allow it to progress beyond the first pages, yet at the same time the content that does have value will remain and the overall record remain for future historians.

A blanket delete sets a precedent that once accepeted as a norm, risks diminishing the forums overall commendable stance on censorship as well as introduce a subjective dogma that at times may not be a good thing.

Locking can clearly be productive, and reversible as well, and portions of value can be still be accessed and copied to other threads. Deleting means: that's it. The baby goes out with the bathwater. No good IMO.

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Miles..

I did not post my message to give you ammunition to use against Bill. I am just not knowledgable enough in photo analysis, to know who might be right or wrong, so I usually just avoid it. I do know that Bill is rather acerbic, but I am quite sure that he is also aware of that.....:-) Actually, I wouldn't want anyone to talk to me like that either. However, I will say that he has been a big part of the Lancer Forum for several years now and I believe he is highly regarded there.

__________

Dixie

Fair enough, Dixie. Sorry to involve you in this dispute. Recently a thread was deleted by John Simkin because Miller's scurrilous & debased attack on Mike Hogan was, quoting John Simkin: "completely unacceptable." Go figure.

Miller is continuing to abuse other members of this forum, despite the pleas of Mods that the forum move on. I am protesting in order to focus Mods attention on what Miller is continuing to do, despite their wishes & in defiance of their wishes.

I do not participate on the Lancer forum, but I do happen to know that at the Lancer adminstration level Miller is NOT held in esteem. Sorry.

Debra Conway, the LANCER ADMIN, sent me this to post:

"Kathy

I am out of town and not able to post. Would you please post for me that while bill can be cantankerous and sarcastic (which doesn't read welll and can get in the way of his point), there has been no one more giving and willing to dig deep into the photographic evidence using online techniques to make things more clear. Bill is the go to guy for many of us.

Because I know he will admit when he is wrong I trust his opinions.

Bill gives strong answers because he has a strong heart. In our search for answers, I would rather have the truth unvarnished than a shiny lie.

Sincerely

Debra"

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.14/885 - Release Date: 7/3/2007 10:02 AM

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I'm sure it is difficult when constantly provoked and lied about Mike.

On the other hand the provocateur is simply not to be believed. In so many ways.

Myra ... when you are done doing a little provoking yourself, please feel free to tell us what the "lie" was? I can ask this question in confidence that you cannot state something that was never said. In fact, it was never specifically stated what I was referring to, nor was it ever stated as to what level concerning a possible loss of respect some people might gotten from it. It could have been anything from keeping a messy room to swearing in church. I believe that it is you people who made more of it than it was and you are still doing it by posting that a "lie" was told when you cannot even tell us what the lie was. I can also say that what I touched on was something I have done myself in my life and I saw nothing wrong with Mike doing it. The point was that some people might not agree and that we all have those crosses to bare. Mikes complaint is that I am too hard on Jack, while others have told me not to let up. The rest is history!

Bill Miller

Edited by Bill Miller
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Debra Conway, the LANCER ADMIN, sent me this to post:

"Kathy

I am out of town and not able to post. Would you please post for me that while bill can be cantankerous and sarcastic (which doesn't read welll and can get in the way of his point), there has been no one more giving and willing to dig deep into the photographic evidence using online techniques to make things more clear. Bill is the go to guy for many of us.

Because I know he will admit when he is wrong I trust his opinions.

Bill gives strong answers because he has a strong heart. In our search for answers, I would rather have the truth unvarnished than a shiny lie.

Sincerely

Debra"

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.14/885 - Release Date: 7/3/2007 10:02 AM

seeing that Kathy (or else someone) dragged Debra into this:

opinions are fine, Debra -- evidence, facts and truth are however, another matter. Does "strong heart" = arrogance, Debra? And if that's all it takes to trust and publish...well so be it. The unvarnished truth is JFK was murdered through conspiracy, everything else in this case *pales* in comparison.

Further, I'll keep my longtime tenure as the MODERATOR of the JFK Assassination Research Film/Picture forum in check for the moment. It's enough to know I was there when Bill Miller (under that name) made his JFKResearch forum, internet debut. Film/Photo technical abilities, NOT his strong suit, rhetoric certainly was... it appears not much has changed over the years.

When Bill Miller left the JFKResearch forum he found a immediate home at Debra's *Lancer*, discussion forum. That 1st *Lancer* discussion forum was on its last legs, hardly any participation much less appreciable membership (I was also a member of that old *Lancer* forum, as well as the early days of the new and improved *Lancer*, though seldom posted in the early day's, though that increased during 2002-2003.

Miller showed up at Lancer during the last days of the OLD Lancer forum, the Lancer forum had a face-lift, was rejuvenated, membership drives, etc and went on to interesting things... Away from *Lancer* rumors flew as to the forums newfound successes and just who was responsible in those early days of the new forum. From then on Bill rubbed shoulders with Gary Mack, Groden and the Dallas tribe of: Dealey Plaza Film/Photo History staus quo, at all costs.

Anayway, a lot of that early Lancer success spawned jealousy in quite a few circles. I recall we at JFKResearch wished Debra and her forum well and best of luck and meant it! She even poked her head in a time or two... all that changed in 2003 when Fetzer's The Great Zapruder Film HOAX was published

....btw, for those that care...GIF animation is not rocket science and was not invented by Bill Miller :blink:

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