Chris Davidson Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 The animation consists of 2 photos. Recreation photo is from the Discovery Channel special "Murder in Dealy Plaza". I believe I got the Moorman copy from Robin. Moorman photo was reduced down to 29.2% x 30% for more precise registration. My question is: The backgrounds line up, but the foregrounds (limos) are at different angles. 4 degrees approx, according to the red lines. Possible? It was my understanding they were trying to recreate the Moorman position as close as possible along with the limo, and they did a nice job. imo Also, the limo angle in the RECREATION photo matches that of the Muchmore film, at the headshot. I will show that next, unless this is easily explainable. thanks chris P.S. Take a look at the Pergola openings next to Zapruder which Jack has pointed out many times before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 The animation consists of 2 photos.Recreation photo is from the Discovery Channel special "Murder in Dealy Plaza". I believe I got the Moorman copy from Robin. Moorman photo was reduced down to 29.2% x 30% for more precise registration. My question is: The backgrounds line up, but the foregrounds (limos) are at different angles. 4 degrees approx, according to the red lines. Possible? It was my understanding they were trying to recreate the Moorman position as close as possible along with the limo, and they did a nice job. imo Also, the limo angle in the RECREATION photo matches that of the Muchmore film, at the headshot. I will show that next, unless this is easily explainable. thanks chris P.S. Take a look at the Pergola openings next to Zapruder which Jack has pointed out many times before. The Kennedy limo is turned further away from Moorman than the Cadillac is in the recreation. If the recreation has the car in the middle of its lane, this means the limo cut to the right around 313. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 Interesting, Chris. The limos are at different angles, suggesting that in Moorman it is not parallel to the curbs and stripes. I have a study from years ago that shows the same thing but in a different way. I will try to find it. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted July 7, 2007 Author Share Posted July 7, 2007 The animation consists of 2 photos.Recreation photo is from the Discovery Channel special "Murder in Dealy Plaza". I believe I got the Moorman copy from Robin. Moorman photo was reduced down to 29.2% x 30% for more precise registration. My question is: The backgrounds line up, but the foregrounds (limos) are at different angles. 4 degrees approx, according to the red lines. Possible? It was my understanding they were trying to recreate the Moorman position as close as possible along with the limo, and they did a nice job. imo Also, the limo angle in the RECREATION photo matches that of the Muchmore film, at the headshot. I will show that next, unless this is easily explainable. thanks chris P.S. Take a look at the Pergola openings next to Zapruder which Jack has pointed out many times before. The Kennedy limo is turned further away from Moorman than the Cadillac is in the recreation. If the recreation has the car in the middle of its lane, this means the limo cut to the right around 313. Pat, Not sure I understand that, in relation to the angle of the car on the street. Isn't the car going downhill somewhat at this point, and therefore it should show this, and be consistant among both photos especially with the backgrounds matching for the most part? If the angle of the limo's are different, shouldn't the backgrounds match accordingly? Next is a picture of the photographer taking the recreation picture showing a little more street. Also, the animation is Muchmore (at the head shot) and the recreation photo. Disregard the background lines in this one, but not the limo lines. The car angles appear to match very well. The limo in Moorman appears to be at an upward angle while going downhill. imo chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 The animation consists of 2 photos.Recreation photo is from the Discovery Channel special "Murder in Dealy Plaza". I believe I got the Moorman copy from Robin. Moorman photo was reduced down to 29.2% x 30% for more precise registration. My question is: The backgrounds line up, but the foregrounds (limos) are at different angles. 4 degrees approx, according to the red lines. Possible? It was my understanding they were trying to recreate the Moorman position as close as possible along with the limo, and they did a nice job. imo Also, the limo angle in the RECREATION photo matches that of the Muchmore film, at the headshot. I will show that next, unless this is easily explainable. thanks chris P.S. Take a look at the Pergola openings next to Zapruder which Jack has pointed out many times before. The Kennedy limo is turned further away from Moorman than the Cadillac is in the recreation. If the recreation has the car in the middle of its lane, this means the limo cut to the right around 313. Pat, Not sure I understand that, in relation to the angle of the car on the street. Isn't the car going downhill somewhat at this point, and therefore it should show this, and be consistant among both photos especially with the backgrounds matching for the most part? If the angle of the limo's are different, shouldn't the backgrounds match accordingly? Next is a picture of the photographer taking the recreation picture showing a little more street. Also, the animation is Muchmore (at the head shot) and the recreation photo. Disregard the background lines in this one, but not the limo lines. The car angles appear to match very well. The limo in Moorman appears to be at an upward angle while going downhill. imo chris I would love to know the specs of the shoot. First it appears the camera is too low and second the lens used does not seem to have the same level of distortion as the Moorman polaroid lens. Any chance anyone can find out what was used and where the camera was placed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Unger Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 (edited) Interesting post Chris. The limo does seem to be at a slight UPWARD angle in Moorman. Edited July 7, 2007 by Robin Unger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 (edited) I would love to know the specs of the shoot. First it appears the camera is too low and second the lens used does not seem to have the same level of distortion as the Moorman polaroid lens. Any chance anyone can find out what was used and where the camera was placed? The two photos may look the same, but there are noticeable differences. The camera heights were not the same for openers. I would also like to say that the more distant objects may look to line up because they are far away and harder to detect any slight differences, but they are there and can be checked none-the-less. For instance, I can take two photos taken at different angles of around 15 degrees and still find certain reference points in both photos that will appear to be the same distance apart. But at the same time the angle change will also show other reference points to be way off, thus the photo was not accurate enough to be an exact replication. Place your mouse arrow on the Badge Man tree or the southwest outside shelter wall in the animation and watch them move back and forth off your mouse arrow. Bill Edited July 7, 2007 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted July 7, 2007 Author Share Posted July 7, 2007 I would love to know the specs of the shoot. First it appears the camera is too low and second the lens used does not seem to have the same level of distortion as the Moorman polaroid lens. Any chance anyone can find out what was used and where the camera was placed? The two photos may look the same, but there are noticeable differences. The camera heights were not the same for openers. I would also like to say that the more distant objects may look to line up because they are far away and harder to detect any slight differences, but they are there and can be checked none-the-less. For instance, I can take two photos taken at different angles of around 15 degrees and still find certain reference points in both photos that will appear to be the same distance apart. But at the same time the angle change will also show other reference points to be way off, thus the photo was not accurate enough to be an exact replication. Place your mouse arrow on the Badge Man tree or the southwest outside shelter wall in the animation and watch them move back and forth off your mouse arrow. Bill Bill/Others I see the Moorman limo at an upward angle going downhill. Then I see the recreation at the same spot or very close to, at a downward angle going downhill. I took a couple of photos, tilted the camera a few degrees and this is what I get. I put lines on the side of the truck and it appears to stay at the same angle in relation to itself/street. Is there a way to duplicate what's in Moorman with regards to the limo appearing to be at an upward angle? thanks chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 Was the recreation photo taken with a Polaroid? Is it the same model camera as Mary's? Is it cropped? Thanks. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 (edited) Is there a way to duplicate what's in Moorman with regards to the limo appearing to be at an upward angle?thanks chris To answer the question - IMO, not without being exactly where Moorman was - the same camera tilt - etc. All lines run off a "vanishing point" as has been discussed in another thread. The angle to the car in each photo is causing us to view it from different perspectives, thus they will be different. Think of it this way .... we have discussed the rotation of the limo as it passes by in front of Zapruder. The constant changing of perspective makes the limo appear to be rotating counter clockwise. Even if one had two exact limos - the view Moorman had compared against the test photo will always have a different look to it because the two photographers and the car was not in the same place for each image to match. Had the camera of taken the photo in each so to be precise, then the angle back to each photographer would have been so close as to line up pretty well. However, this did not occur. Bill Edited July 7, 2007 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted July 7, 2007 Author Share Posted July 7, 2007 Was the recreation photo taken with a Polaroid?Is it the same model camera as Mary's? Is it cropped? Thanks. Jack Jack, Quote's from the documentary: "We then took pictures with an exact duplicate of the Moorman camera." (photo supplied) "That could be enlarged, but that's the original off the camera". (Photo supplied of gentleman holding the recreation original). I don't think it was cropped, but it looks like there's a pin-cushioning affect at the top.( Photo supplied) They zoomed in on the pin-cushioning until it was gone and that's when I extracted my comparison frame. They did show the recreation photo without the pin-cushioning, but the quality/detail on that one was not as good for comparison purposes. Gary Mack was there consulting, perhaps he can give us more insight on the positioning of the limo. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 Thanks, Chris....but that obviously is a lie by someone. The camera OBVIOUSLY is not a Model 80A...making the test suspect! Go to Marcel's website at http://www.copweb.be/Moorman%20Camera.htm for views of a model 80...then compare the two cameras! You may want to post a comparison. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 Chris...there seems to be something phony about that recreation photo besides the car not being the same angle. I have not done a comparison, but if that is an UNCROPPED photo, the aspect ratio and the field of view both look dissimilar to the view from the Model 80A. How about showing us a side-by-side comparison, as well as a side-by-side comparison of the two cameras. Thanks. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 Chris...there seems to be something phony about that recreation photo besidesthe car not being the same angle. I have not done a comparison, but if that is an UNCROPPED photo, the aspect ratio and the field of view both look dissimilar to the view from the Model 80A. How about showing us a side-by-side comparison, as well as a side-by-side comparison of the two cameras. Thanks. Jack Chris...I have just done the comparison I had in mind. IT PROVES THAT MOORMAN WAS STANDING IN THE STREET! I will ask Bernice to post it here. Thanks. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 (edited) Chris...there seems to be something phony about that recreation photo besidesthe car not being the same angle. I have not done a comparison, but if that is an UNCROPPED photo, the aspect ratio and the field of view both look dissimilar to the view from the Model 80A. How about showing us a side-by-side comparison, as well as a side-by-side comparison of the two cameras. Thanks. Jack Chris...I have just done the comparison I had in mind. IT PROVES THAT MOORMAN WAS STANDING IN THE STREET! I will ask Bernice to post it here. Thanks. Jack ********************** Here you go Jack... Best B... Edited July 8, 2007 by Bernice Moore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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