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Survey Data Question


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At risk of sounding paranoid!

First off, there is obviously some form of "contamination" in my computer, which could easily be the problem.

However!

Today, I went to pull up CE 884 from the HISTORY MATTERS website in order to expound on some "Vehicle Speed" problems, and found that no matter which way I go, only the first three survey positions:

161

166

185

will download and can be seen.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0464b.htm

SO!

Am I the only recepient of this anomaly?

Tom,

I think I have the same virus

Why would the West and W/C surveys list the same measurements for different frames?

chris

Chris;

Hoped that you were still out there.

No doubt John & David are "lurking" around also.

In answer to your question: How about we first re-establish the facts of the alteration.

After all, we do have some "newbies" here who probably have no idea as to what we speak.

Original "Data Block" from Mr. West's survey. Copied directly from the WC Survey Plat

Original platting of those points which were surveyed in by Mr. West. Copied directly from the WC Survey Plat.

I will not waste attachment space in posting the actual survey notes of Mr. West, as most have seen at least these portions of them.

'tis true, Tom, I am 'lurking', and as far as I can, learning.

However, not having the full West survey plat with all peripheral points, my personal interest of research in locating photographers and filmers and doing my own analysis, and hopefully deriving useful info on where 'what' is said to have been and where 'it' really was by using the existing imagery of the day the way I want to do it, and thus continuing a study on films and missing frames etc. everything for me is 'on hold'. As far as it went, at the time the study was in full progress, the realisation that Don's map is incorrect, brought that to a screeching halt. And there it stays.

Nevertheless, that you, Tom, take the time to create these posts to refer to when the time (hopefully) comes, is much appreciated. Till then: 'lurk' it is. (for me).

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Mr. FRAZIER - Represented by frame 185, this is the first or rather the only position through the foliage of the tree at which a person from the sixth floor could get a clear shot at the back of the President, and I had the car stopped at this position and then we determined that this was frame 185 from the Zapruder films.

In Commission Exhibit No. 891, which is marked frame 186, this is the adjusted position to which the car was moved to accommodate the 10-inch distance at which the actual wound in the President would have been located had the car been the actual Presidential limousine rather than the stand-in car.

================================================================================

===

Mr. GOLDSMITH. Mr. Canning, I would ask you to step to the easel again.

Before I ask any further questions I should correct my earlier statement.

F-136 actually has four pictures in it. The one at the upper left is the Betzner photograph, and the one in the upper right is a partial enlargement of a section of that Betzner photograph. The two photographs at the bottom are photographs of the Presidential limousine used on that day.

Mr. Canning, do you know with what frame of the Zapruder film the Betzner photograph corresponds?

Mr. CANNING. That corresponds with frame 186.

Mr. GOLDSMITH. And was that determined by use of the same method to which you referred earlier?

Mr. CANNING. It was determined by precisely the same method sighting over the shoulder of the Secret Service agent to the photographer Zapruder.

================================================================================

====

It would appear that perhaps there is more "common ground" here than many would recognize upon cursory examination.

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Mr. CANNING. The Croft picture corresponds with frame 161. The Willis photograph corresponds with frame 202.

EL:-----------------------------------329.68

+ Drommer EL:------------------- 94.2

Equals West Street Elevation of 423.88

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z202.jpg

"Scalled", the distance between Z186 and Z202 = 19 feet (=/- 1 foot)

So: 16 elapsed frames and 19 feet traversed = 1.1875 feet per frame X 18.3 = 21.73125 feet per second.

(X 60 x 60 /5280) = 14.816761 mph.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

18 foot scaled =

18/16 = 1.125 feet per frame (X 60 X 60 /5280) = 14.036931 mph.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So! anyone of the opinion that the Presidential Limo was travelling at a rate of 14mph through this area?

Chris & John:

The information is there, when combined with the Drommer survey data (now that you know it's basic meanings), when combined with the Z-film and that information relative to the WC re-enactment and the SS Re-enactment survey data.

If I can be of any further assistance, YELL LOUD!

Tom

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Mr. CANNING. The Croft picture corresponds with frame 161. The Willis photograph corresponds with frame 202.

EL:-----------------------------------329.68

+ Drommer EL:------------------- 94.2

Equals West Street Elevation of 423.88

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z202.jpg

"Scalled", the distance between Z186 and Z202 = 19 feet (=/- 1 foot)

So: 16 elapsed frames and 19 feet traversed = 1.1875 feet per frame X 18.3 = 21.73125 feet per second.

(X 60 x 60 /5280) = 14.816761 mph.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

18 foot scaled =

18/16 = 1.125 feet per frame (X 60 X 60 /5280) = 14.036931 mph.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So! anyone of the opinion that the Presidential Limo was travelling at a rate of 14mph through this area?

Chris & John:

The information is there, when combined with the Drommer survey data (now that you know it's basic meanings), when combined with the Z-film and that information relative to the WC re-enactment and the SS Re-enactment survey data.

If I can be of any further assistance, YELL LOUD!

Tom

"TEN HUT !"

At easy there, soldier.

Just kidding.

How's about checking out:

Report: Epipolar Geometric Analysis of Amateur Films Related to Acoustics Evidence in the John F. Kennedy Assassination / 179 pages / Over 100 Graphic Exhibits

Select the file appropriate for your Internet connection.

Lowest Quality PDF (14.6 MB) Download

Highest Quality PDF (43.9 MB) Download

Right-Click "Download" then select "Save Link As..."

Secrets of a Homicide: JFK Assassination © 1995-2007 Dale K. Myers. All Rights Reserved.

Published by Oak Cliff Press, Inc., P.O. Box 608, Milford, MI 48381-0608

which you can find here: http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm

Get the 43.9 MB ver.

How does this tally up with your excellent analysis & findings?

Carry on :D

Miles

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Mr. CANNING. The Croft picture corresponds with frame 161. The Willis photograph corresponds with frame 202.

EL:-----------------------------------329.68

+ Drommer EL:------------------- 94.2

Equals West Street Elevation of 423.88

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z202.jpg

"Scalled", the distance between Z186 and Z202 = 19 feet (=/- 1 foot)

So: 16 elapsed frames and 19 feet traversed = 1.1875 feet per frame X 18.3 = 21.73125 feet per second.

(X 60 x 60 /5280) = 14.816761 mph.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

18 foot scaled =

18/16 = 1.125 feet per frame (X 60 X 60 /5280) = 14.036931 mph.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So! anyone of the opinion that the Presidential Limo was travelling at a rate of 14mph through this area?

Chris & John:

The information is there, when combined with the Drommer survey data (now that you know it's basic meanings), when combined with the Z-film and that information relative to the WC re-enactment and the SS Re-enactment survey data.

If I can be of any further assistance, YELL LOUD!

Tom

"TEN HUT !"

At easy there, soldier.

Just kidding.

How's about checking out:

Report: Epipolar Geometric Analysis of Amateur Films Related to Acoustics Evidence in the John F. Kennedy Assassination / 179 pages / Over 100 Graphic Exhibits

Select the file appropriate for your Internet connection.

Lowest Quality PDF (14.6 MB) Download

Highest Quality PDF (43.9 MB) Download

Right-Click "Download" then select "Save Link As..."

Secrets of a Homicide: JFK Assassination © 1995-2007 Dale K. Myers. All Rights Reserved.

Published by Oak Cliff Press, Inc., P.O. Box 608, Milford, MI 48381-0608

which you can find here: http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/acoustics.htm

Get the 43.9 MB ver.

How does this tally up with your excellent analysis & findings?

Carry on :D

Miles

Actually!

& Hopefully!

They will check it out and find the "intentional" (slightly minor) error which was made a part of the computations, which makes a minor difference in vehicle speed.

Which, when demonstrated, could lead to other discoveries.

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Although this most probably should be under the "HIDE THE KEY" topic, they have much in common and therefore I will post it here with the CE884 data.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0017a.htm

Anyone who claims to be a "serious" researcher should be well aware of the fact of the missing frames of the Z-film as NOT PROVIDED by the WC.

Z208/209/210/&211.

The best reference to this is SIX SECONDS IN DALLAS, as this also represented the first that these purported frames were made available to the public.

Anyhow, the unofficial word from the WC was that the film which they got from Time/Life did not have these frames of the film.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0052a.htm

Which in itself appears to be relatively incorrect. Considering that it would be quite impossible to make a Composite of Z210 if one was not in possession of Z210.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0464b.htm

Nor, could they do any survey work either*

*As has long ago been posted, the Z210 is actually for what the WC informed Mr. West was Z208, and thereafter surveyed in as such.

Thereafter, the alteration to CE 884.

Now! If one will check the actual survey data of Mr. West, they will find that he was informed of Z207 &Z208 position, and informed to survey in that data.

With Z208 @ Survey Stationing 373.4 and Z207 @ Stationing 371.1, this gave us a 2.3 feet distance travelled for 1 frame of the Z-film.

Which, for the non-mathmatically inclined, equates to a vehicle speed of 28.69 miles per hour.

Twice as fast as previously calculated figures (approximately 14mph), which of itself is in all probability almost twice as fast as the Limo was actually travelling at this point after having completed the hairpin turn onto Elm St.

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Over the past few decades since the assassination, many EEI (Essential Elements of Information) have been uncovered which are, by their very nature, absolutely necessary in order to determine all of the facts of the actual assassination.

Unfortunately, few have taken this information, gathered it together for evaluation, and thereafter "built" on it to refine and make it better and more factual.

This of course takes work and research as well.

Nevertheless, the Drommer Survey work of the HSCA is one of those items.

Yet, without the other information, which apparantly only I and Mr. West were in possession of, the "gathering" could not take place as it requires information gleaned from ALL of the survey work to determine certain aspects of the WC's somewhat phony assassination re-enactment as well as exactly what are the facts.

A distinct advantage that Drommer gave us was the exact positioning of points/Z-frames which the WC had not given us.

Of specific note would be Z202.

And, by it's street elevation, it can thereafter be platted relatively accurately on both the SS/12/63 survey plat as well as the WC larger scale survey plat.

Based on the previously demonstrated calculations, the Drommer street elevation for Z202 would have been approximately El. 423.88 for the SS and/or WC Survey Plat.

With this, we can open new insights into calculated vehicle speeds as well as other aspects of the WC's survey work.

So, to begin, perhaps the best place would be the SS who it would appear made no attempts to deceive us

with their "Houdini" Magic Show.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z202.jpg

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Over the past few decades since the assassination, many EEI (Essential Elements of Information) have been uncovered which are, by their very nature, absolutely necessary in order to determine all of the facts of the actual assassination.

Unfortunately, few have taken this information, gathered it together for evaluation, and thereafter "built" on it to refine and make it better and more factual.

This of course takes work and research as well.

Nevertheless, the Drommer Survey work of the HSCA is one of those items.

Yet, without the other information, which apparantly only I and Mr. West were in possession of, the "gathering" could not take place as it requires information gleaned from ALL of the survey work to determine certain aspects of the WC's somewhat phony assassination re-enactment as well as exactly what are the facts.

A distinct advantage that Drommer gave us was the exact positioning of points/Z-frames which the WC had not given us.

Of specific note would be Z202.

And, by it's street elevation, it can thereafter be platted relatively accurately on both the SS/12/63 survey plat as well as the WC larger scale survey plat.

Based on the previously demonstrated calculations, the Drommer street elevation for Z202 would have been approximately El. 423.88 for the SS and/or WC Survey Plat.

With this, we can open new insights into calculated vehicle speeds as well as other aspects of the WC's survey work.

So, to begin, perhaps the best place would be the SS who it would appear made no attempts to deceive us

with their "Houdini" Magic Show.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z202.jpg

Since I have never assumed myself to be more qualified and/or smarter than the auspices of the US SS, I have always assumed that they knew more than did most.

Just perhaps they should have assisted the Warren Commission more!

Certainly would have prevented the circular discussions as relates to THE SHOT THAT MISSED!

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The Warren Commission Survey Plat is of course nothing more than a larger scale version of the SS Plat.

With of course the Z-frame survey points which Mr. West did for the WC added in.

Since no "re-survey" of the road sign was done, it's position on the WC Survey Plat is virtually identical with the SS Survey, and therefore gives us additional confirmation of the accuracy of the Drommer work of establishment of the Z202 location on Elm St.

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With the aid of the larger scale WC Survey Plat, one can scale the approximate stationing number for the newly platted Z202.

And, with the West survey information which gives the 3+71.1 (371.1) stationing for Z207, one now has additional points with which to make comparative data as regards vehicle speed.

Ultimately, this results in approximately 4.3 feet traversed in 5 frames of the film, which ultimately comes to approximately 10.73 mph through this short distance.

Which when compared with other calculated speeds of 28 mph and/or 14 mph, clearly demonstrates that something with the WC's "frame count" of frames of the Z-film is clearly amiss.

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Now that we have a relatively clear understanding that we are speaking of Z207 & Z208 as opposed to Z207 & Z210 as shown on CE884:

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0464b.htm

Perhaps we should look at more of what CE884 may reveal:

Z207:--Line of Sight distance--Kennedy to Rifle:-----------------------------------174.9 feet

Z210: (actually Z208)--Line of Sight distance--Kennedy to Rifle:-----------------176.9 feet

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/simmons.htm

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; we did. We placed three targets, which were head and shoulder silhouettes, at distances of 175* feet, 240 feet, and 265 feet, and these distances are slant ranges

*The SS as well as all work by the FBI placed this first shot slant distance distance at 184 feet.

The Time/Life Survey work which was somewhat deficient in accuracy, placed the slant distance at 170 feet.

Nevertheless:

Mr. EISENBERG. Are you sure they were not the values I gave to you myself?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0139a.htm

On 3/27/64, Melvin Eisenberg prepared this drawing with the first shot elevation of 423 which clearly demonstrates that he knew the exact elevation of the first shot as determined by the US Secret Service during the 12/5/63 survey work, as well as concurrance by the FBI by their having accepted this impact point for their work of 2/7/64.

Yet, as we all should know, the WC informed us that they really could not determine the impact point of the first shot, and in fact, the first shot might have missed.

Of course they also told us that the second shot might have missed, as well.

It would therefore strike me as being another of those extreme coincidences that Melvin Eisenberg gave Ronald Simmons a "slant" distance of 175 feet for the first shot fired,

That Z207 had a slant distance of 174.9 feet and Z208 (or whatever it actually is) had a slant distance of 176.9 feet.

And, that we have some alteration of survey numbers in this exact same vicinity as well as the beginning of the omitted frames of the Zfilm beginning after Z207.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just another of those Enigma's I would suppose!

Edited by Thomas H. Purvis
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http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0139a.htm

On 3/27/64, Melvin Eisenberg prepared this drawing with the first shot elevation of 423 which clearly demonstrates that he knew the exact elevation of the first shot as determined by the US Secret Service during the 12/5/63 survey work, as well as concurrance by the FBI by their having accepted this impact point for their work of 2/7/64.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0139a.htm

Perhaps I should ""qualify" the above statement in order that there is no confusion.

Melvin Eisenberg did not "prepare" the drawing.

The Drawing was actually made by FBI Agent Robert Frazier.

However, Frazier made the drawing based on information provided to him by Melvin Eisenberg.

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Mr. FRAZIER - Those figures I gave were the elevations or the sighting distances above the target. The 6.7 inches vertical lead or sighting over the target is the equivalent of leading on the ground of 1.4 feet.

Mr. EISENBERG - And that table also shows leads at other car speeds?

Mr. FRAZIER - This table I could calculate them--it only shows miles per hour translated into feet per second.

Mr. EISENBERG - I mean, does it show various miles per hour?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; it shows miles per hour in feet per second.

Mr. EISENBERG - Without going into detail at this time, may I have permission to introduce this table into evidence?

Mr. McCLOY - It may be admitted.

Mr. EISENBERG - This will be Commission Exhibit 560.

Mr. EISENBERG - Now, Mr. Frazier, in the construction of this table and also in your last tests for rapid fire for this rifle, you used a five-and-a-half second figure as a factor in your calculations, and in your attempt at rapid fire accuracy placements. Can you give us the source of that figure?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. You were the source of it, based on examination, as I understood it, of a movie taken at the scene, and measurements taken at the scene. However, I have no knowledge of the actual time.

Mr. EISENBERG - For the record, I just wanted to establish that this is a source that was supplied by the Commission and which is tentative, and it is not to imply any final conclusion on the part of the FBI; is that correct?

Mr. FRAZIER - I hope it is taken that way, because we don't know what the time actually was.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The significance of this information which Melvin Eisenberg provided to FBI Agent Robert Frazier appears to have escaped detection.

First off, this information, as demonstrated by the date, was provided to Frazier on or about March 26 or March 27 of 1964.

This chart clearly demonstrates information which was available ONLY from either the SS Survey work and survey plat of December 1963 or the Survey Plat (CE585) for the FBI Survey Plat of 2/7/64.

The SS Survey Plat clearly demonstrates the impact point of each of the three shot fired, to include the location of the second shot at Z313/elevation 418, and the third shot impact down at stationing 4+95 in front of James ALtgens position.

The FBI Survey plat of 2/7/64 left in place the third/last/final shot down in front of James Altgens position. Left in place the impact point of the first shot, yet attempted to change the impact point of the Z313 impact and move it back up the street prior to even passing Mary Moorman and the yellow mark on the curb.

This "move" by the FBI placed the impact point of the second shot at street elevation of 419.07.

Yet, we can clearly see that Eisenberg clearly provided to FBI Agent Frazier that street elevation which is actually for the true impact location of Z313 at street elevation of 418.

Lastly, even with what is now demonstratable knowledge of those survey plats of the US SS as well as the FBI, the WC has now completely deleted the impact point down in front of James Altgens position at Stationing 4+95/street elevation of 416.83.

For those who are unaware of the exact date, May 24th was the date of the WC re-enactment and survey work which was going to "resolve the truth" for us all.

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Mr. SPECTER. Did you participate in the onsite tests made in Dallas?

Mr. GAUTHIER. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Was a survey made of the scene used to record some of the results of that onsite testing?

Mr. GAUTHIER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And by whom was the survey made?

Mr. GAUTHIER. The survey was made on May 24, 1964, by Robert H. West, county surveyor, a licensed State land surveyor, located at 160 County Courthouse, Dallas, Tex.

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Perhaps it is just my personal nature, but I do resent someone who is going down to Dallas, TX on May 24, 1964 to supposedly

resolve the truth and facts for me, when in fact at some point prior to March 27, 1964 they had already resolved what these facts were going to be.

Kind of makes me think that the May 24, 1964 did not represent a truthful study of the facts, and was in fact more of a somewhat complicated endeavor which was intended to present and prove to me a set of pre-determined facts.

Be they actual fact or not.

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