Thomas H. Purvis Posted July 9, 2007 Author Share Posted July 9, 2007 Temporarily at least, I will move away from the third/last/final shot. However, I am reminded of long ago when I first began to make posting in regards to this shot. At that time I was firmly accousted and informed that I had no facts to support the third shot impact location. Then: http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car. Mr. ALTGENS - Because I didn't see who fired it. After the Presidential car moved a little past me, I took another picture--now, just let me back up here--I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Along with a few others! SO! For those who DID NOT do their homework before inserting foot into mouth, might I recommend that they pay particular close attention. And, those who have not made the mistake of learning an "error", at least you do not suffer the difficulty of having to "unlearn" something which was never factual to begin with. Tom P.S. LHO was an EXCELLENT SHOT! Take it or leave it, it does not change the facts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted July 9, 2007 Author Share Posted July 9, 2007 OK! Anyone out there who is not relatively well aware as to exactly how the WC made the third/last/final shot disappear? In that regards one can rest assured that if they can make the entire evidence of this shot (almost) disappear, then there was little difficulty in also making the actual bullet "disappear" as well. ERGO: "Politicians, not unlike Magicians, can make things disappear!" The primary difficulty being that if the shot & bullet were going to disappear, then those wounds which it created had to be incorporated into one of the two other shots which they were actually going to tell us about. The bullet at the headshot at Z312/313 fragmented severly, but JBC was hit in the back/right shoulder by an intact bullet. And that folks is primarily how the "Magic/aka SBT" theory came into being. If there are two intact bullets and one fragmented bullet, and one intact bullet is made to disappear, then all wounds which were created by an intact bullet must thereafter be blamed on the one and only remaining intact bullet. CE399 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 I had nothing else to do, so I read the entire thread of Mr. Purvis. Except one response by Chris, the entire thread is written by Purvis to goad the unwary into some kind of argument. Nobody doubts that Mr. West played a significant role in drawing accurate plats of the plaza. So far as I know, West and his assistant Breneman both DOUBTED the conclusions of the WC. I do not understand Purvis's "game" of trying to prove that West supports his "LHO acted alone" nonsense. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted July 9, 2007 Author Share Posted July 9, 2007 I had nothing else to do, so I read the entire thread of Mr. Purvis.Except one response by Chris, the entire thread is written by Purvis to goad the unwary into some kind of argument. Nobody doubts that Mr. West played a significant role in drawing accurate plats of the plaza. So far as I know, West and his assistant Breneman both DOUBTED the conclusions of the WC. I do not understand Purvis's "game" of trying to prove that West supports his "LHO acted alone" nonsense. Jack I do not understand Purvis's "game" From everything that I am aware, fact is that you really do not understand anything! Especially facts related to the assassination of JFK. Why not go chase your mythological "six-groove" bullet? Or perhaps your Carcano with the sling swivel merely reversed? Or any other number of the erroneous assumptions which you jump to in order to foster some mythological multiple assassin scenario. Purvis's "Game" is to demonstrate to a new generation of research persons that the "old garbage" has gotten this subject matter nowhere, so why not take an approach which deals with factual evidence. Guess what Jack? It would appear that it is starting to take hold with certain persons who clearly have demonstrated the ability for self thought and deductive reasoning. Of course, that pretty well omits you from ever understanding much of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted July 10, 2007 Author Share Posted July 10, 2007 (edited) Here you go Jack! I recognize that this is quite complicated and requires considerable effort to understand, but if you try hard, just perhaps you may grasp it. Since I personally consider that the US Secret Service, who was in possession of an original and un-altered version of the Z-film, as well as having access to the witnesses, are considerably more qualified than either you or I to resolve the issues, then personally, I would have to believe them over you. No offense! Just that I have had a few dealings with the SS, and they all seemed to be relatively intelligent persons to me. However, if it helps you to have a Unicorn or some other mytholigical creature (such as multiple assassin's or body snatchers) drawn in/around the grassy knoll, then I would most certainly be glad to oblige. Three Shots! Three Hits! Really, really complicated there. P.S. Exactly who was the dufas here who believed the WC's story in regards to Z313 having been the last shot, and that there was a SHOT THAT MISSED? Wern't me! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot. Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct? Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear. Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side? Mr. HUDSON - Right hand. Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here altogether? Mr. HUDSON - Three. Mr. LIEBELER - Three shots? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right? Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was. Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there? Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-benne.htm "a second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the President's head" http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce2112.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car. Mr. ALTGENS - Because I didn't see who fired it. After the Presidential car moved a little past me, I took another picture--now, just let me back up here--I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera. http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z344.jpg There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack; Take your choice as to which you can grasp! The "drawn" picture, or the written word! Edited July 10, 2007 by Thomas H. Purvis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted July 10, 2007 Author Share Posted July 10, 2007 For those who require the "written word" as well as the "drawn picture", I made a combined edit to the last posting which included the SS Survey plat. It just may assist some in not taking the incorrect road, as well as also point to the correct road to those who have made the wrong turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Here you go Jack!I recognize that this is quite complicated and requires considerable effort to understand, but if you try hard, just perhaps you may grasp it. Since I personally consider that the US Secret Service, who was in possession of an original and un-altered version of the Z-film, as well as having access to the witnesses, are considerably more qualified than either you or I to resolve the issues, then personally, I would have to believe them over you. No offense! Just that I have had a few dealings with the SS, and they all seemed to be relatively intelligent persons to me. However, if it helps you to have a Unicorn or some other mytholigical creature (such as multiple assassin's or body snatchers) drawn in/around the grassy knoll, then I would most certainly be glad to oblige. Three Shots! Three Hits! Really, really complicated there. P.S. Exactly who was the dufas here who believed the WC's story in regards to Z313 having been the last shot, and that there was a SHOT THAT MISSED? Wern't me! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot. Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct? Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear. Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side? Mr. HUDSON - Right hand. Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here altogether? Mr. HUDSON - Three. Mr. LIEBELER - Three shots? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right? Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was. Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there? Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-benne.htm "a second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the President's head" http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce2112.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car. Mr. ALTGENS - Because I didn't see who fired it. After the Presidential car moved a little past me, I took another picture--now, just let me back up here--I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera. http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z344.jpg There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack; Take your choice as to which you can grasp! The "drawn" picture, or the written word! Tom, In previous posts, you pointed out the shot near Altgen's, but never made reference to a specific frame if I remember corrrectly. At some point I responded with a 3 picture series from the Zfilm near Altgens, pointing out a specific frame with a red circle/halo and what appears to be some type of scratch/residue within the halo. Could this be some type of designation on the film representing/showing the flesh particles? Or just a film anomaly? Coincidence/No Coincidence thanks chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted July 10, 2007 Author Share Posted July 10, 2007 Here you go Jack!I recognize that this is quite complicated and requires considerable effort to understand, but if you try hard, just perhaps you may grasp it. Since I personally consider that the US Secret Service, who was in possession of an original and un-altered version of the Z-film, as well as having access to the witnesses, are considerably more qualified than either you or I to resolve the issues, then personally, I would have to believe them over you. No offense! Just that I have had a few dealings with the SS, and they all seemed to be relatively intelligent persons to me. However, if it helps you to have a Unicorn or some other mytholigical creature (such as multiple assassin's or body snatchers) drawn in/around the grassy knoll, then I would most certainly be glad to oblige. Three Shots! Three Hits! Really, really complicated there. P.S. Exactly who was the dufas here who believed the WC's story in regards to Z313 having been the last shot, and that there was a SHOT THAT MISSED? Wern't me! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot. Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct? Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear. Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side? Mr. HUDSON - Right hand. Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here altogether? Mr. HUDSON - Three. Mr. LIEBELER - Three shots? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right? Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was. Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there? Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-benne.htm "a second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the President's head" http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce2112.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car. Mr. ALTGENS - Because I didn't see who fired it. After the Presidential car moved a little past me, I took another picture--now, just let me back up here--I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera. http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z344.jpg There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack; Take your choice as to which you can grasp! The "drawn" picture, or the written word! Tom, In previous posts, you pointed out the shot near Altgen's, but never made reference to a specific frame if I remember corrrectly. At some point I responded with a 3 picture series from the Zfilm near Altgens, pointing out a specific frame with a red circle/halo and what appears to be some type of scratch/residue within the halo. Could this be some type of designation on the film representing/showing the flesh particles? Or just a film anomaly? Coincidence/No Coincidence thanks chris Chris; In order to determine the "true" frame# at which one should observe some evidence of the impact, one would have to be in possession of absolutelly original and first generation color copies of the Z-film. Therefore, I make no attempt to distinguish what "might" be seen in the film as there are far more than enough persons telling us what they see. There is an item of some notice. However, the WC was quite adept at creating their own false leads as well as all those others who have done so either by intention or by lack of research. http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z350.jpg And in that regards I have always found the above frame of the film of interest, when compared with Z349 & Z351. From all that is understood, Jackie did not begin to climb out of the car until such time as JFK's head exploded (for the second time) when she was holding him. Thus this, Z350, would not be the impact, yet could have shown us something such as what Altgens clearly described as being blown out into his direction. Nevertheless, it also appears that LHO/the shooter just may have gotten this last shot off in slightly less time than the FBI gives as the minimum time allowed. Although certainly a "snap shot", this does not mean that LHO/the shooter still did not have time to utilize the scope, and due to the mounting of the scope it certainly appears that LHO/the shooter may have been, at minimum, a left-eye dominant shooter. Which would make it considerably easier to acquire the target & sighting with the left-mounted scope, than it would have been for a right-eye dominant shooter. Without going into great detail, there are several items which tend to support the "left-eye dominant" trait of LHO. Which if so, could easily account for a minimum firing time of slightly less than the 2.3 to 2.4 second FBI times. However, that does not mean that 1.8 seconds is reasonable or rational. Quick Note: For a right-eye dominant shooter, due to the nature of the stock design and the "spot-weld" of the cheek to the stock, the right eye normally aligns relatively close to the center of the rifle in alignment with the barrel/rear sight/front sight. This makes it simple for the shooter to easily acquire the sight picture. However, with a left of center mounted scope, the right-eye dominant shooter has to un-naturally "cock" his head to the left, thus disrupting the natural spot-weld of cheek to stock position. All of which creates a somewhat un-natural shooting position and sighting alignment, and which delays sighting/targeting acquisition. However, if one is left eye dominant and has a left-of-center scope alignment, then with the right cheek spot-weld onto the stock, the left eye automatically falls close to the alignment of the scope. Thus, one not only does not have to go through the exercise of "cocking" the head to the left in order to achieve a sight picture, but the left-hand mounted/left of center scope alignment is in fact a compliment to a left eye dominant shooter. And although to a right-eye dominant shooter the scope cross-hair alignment would seem to be far out of adjustment, to the left-eye dominant shooter, it may be exactly correct. How's that for no direct answer? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Thanks Tom, I think your first few sentences are pretty clear. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Where does Tom's SPOT WELD OF THE CHEEK TO THE STOCK come from? When I was in the service, we were told to keep our face out of the way of the stock because of the strong recoil. After a day at the rifle range, having never before fired a rifle, I spent the next week with a purple cheek and fat lip. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted July 11, 2007 Author Share Posted July 11, 2007 Thanks Tom,I think your first few sentences are pretty clear. chris Chris; This too has always given me problems. Especially since it is virtually in the exact vicinity of where the third shot was. http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted July 11, 2007 Author Share Posted July 11, 2007 Where does Tom's SPOT WELD OF THE CHEEK TO THE STOCK come from?When I was in the service, we were told to keep our face out of the way of the stock because of the strong recoil. After a day at the rifle range, having never before fired a rifle, I spent the next week with a purple cheek and fat lip. Jack One thing which is consistant Jack, is how little you actually know about most things, as well as your apparant inability to even find things in the day of instant information on the internet. ANYONE who has any experience besides just shooting a gun, is familiar with the necessity of a proper "spot weld" in achieving quality and repetitive accuracy in rifle fire. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.gospelplow.net/abasr.html Basic Rifle Marksmanship Use the Spot Weld on rifles that allow it. Place the right cheekbone against the right thumb as it wraps around the small of the stock. This locates the shooter's eye at the same place behind the rear sight each time the weapon is shouldered. Use the Stock Weld on rifles with stocks where the length of pull or presence of a pistol grip preclude the use of the spot weld. Place the cheek directly against the stock. Be diligent to locate the cheek in the same location on the stock each time t -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.tpub.com/content/advancement/12...s/12018_382.htm FIRING TECHNIQUES—RIFLE It is important to keep your eye the same distance from the peep sight in any particular firing position. To ensure this distance is always the same, you must hold the rifle in the same exact location for each shot. This location is commonly called the spot weld or anchor. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.proz.com/kudoz/257964 English term or phrase: consistent spot weld Emphasize: Fundamentals of marksmanship, proper body position and consistent spot weld. The spot weld is the point of firm contact between the shooters cheek and thumb on the small of the stock. The spot weld is the point of firm contact between the sniper’s cheek and thumb on the small of the stock. The firm contact between the head, hand, and rifle enables the head and weapon to recoil as one unit, facilitating rapid recovery between rounds. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Which knowledge should clearly demonstrate the difference between a "Bull Shooter" and a "Bull Sh---er". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 Where does Tom's SPOT WELD OF THE CHEEK TO THE STOCK come from?When I was in the service, we were told to keep our face out of the way of the stock because of the strong recoil. After a day at the rifle range, having never before fired a rifle, I spent the next week with a purple cheek and fat lip. Jack One thing which is consistant Jack, is how little you actually know about most things, as well as your apparant inability to even find things in the day of instant information on the internet. ANYONE who has any experience besides just shooting a gun, is familiar with the necessity of a proper "spot weld" in achieving quality and repetitive accuracy in rifle fire. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.gospelplow.net/abasr.html Basic Rifle Marksmanship Use the Spot Weld on rifles that allow it. Place the right cheekbone against the right thumb as it wraps around the small of the stock. This locates the shooter's eye at the same place behind the rear sight each time the weapon is shouldered. Use the Stock Weld on rifles with stocks where the length of pull or presence of a pistol grip preclude the use of the spot weld. Place the cheek directly against the stock. Be diligent to locate the cheek in the same location on the stock each time t -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.tpub.com/content/advancement/12...s/12018_382.htm FIRING TECHNIQUES—RIFLE It is important to keep your eye the same distance from the peep sight in any particular firing position. To ensure this distance is always the same, you must hold the rifle in the same exact location for each shot. This location is commonly called the spot weld or anchor. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.proz.com/kudoz/257964 English term or phrase: consistent spot weld Emphasize: Fundamentals of marksmanship, proper body position and consistent spot weld. The spot weld is the point of firm contact between the shooters cheek and thumb on the small of the stock. The spot weld is the point of firm contact between the sniper’s cheek and thumb on the small of the stock. The firm contact between the head, hand, and rifle enables the head and weapon to recoil as one unit, facilitating rapid recovery between rounds. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Which knowledge should clearly demonstrate the difference between a "Bull Shooter" and a "Bull Sh---er". Hey...I was 18 years old and had never held a rifle in my hands, nor have I since. I know nothing about guns except the BB gun I had as a kid shooting at tin cans. Call it bullxxxx if you want, but that was 1945, and the gunnery people gave us no personalized instructions. Sailors do not use rifles anyway except when pulling guard duty...and then they made sure that the guns were UNLOADED. The only instruction was to walk back and forth with the unloaded gun on our shoulder, and if we encountered anyone to say...HALT! ADVANCE AND BE RECOGNIZED. I claim to be ignorant of all the things beloved by gun afficionadoes. I do know a lot about an MC rifle...but just from reading. Have a peaceful day. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted July 11, 2007 Author Share Posted July 11, 2007 Here you go Jack!I recognize that this is quite complicated and requires considerable effort to understand, but if you try hard, just perhaps you may grasp it. Since I personally consider that the US Secret Service, who was in possession of an original and un-altered version of the Z-film, as well as having access to the witnesses, are considerably more qualified than either you or I to resolve the issues, then personally, I would have to believe them over you. No offense! Just that I have had a few dealings with the SS, and they all seemed to be relatively intelligent persons to me. However, if it helps you to have a Unicorn or some other mytholigical creature (such as multiple assassin's or body snatchers) drawn in/around the grassy knoll, then I would most certainly be glad to oblige. Three Shots! Three Hits! Really, really complicated there. P.S. Exactly who was the dufas here who believed the WC's story in regards to Z313 having been the last shot, and that there was a SHOT THAT MISSED? Wern't me! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot. Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct? Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear. Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side? Mr. HUDSON - Right hand. Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here altogether? Mr. HUDSON - Three. Mr. LIEBELER - Three shots? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right? Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was. Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there? Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-benne.htm "a second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the President's head" http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce2112.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car. Mr. ALTGENS - Because I didn't see who fired it. After the Presidential car moved a little past me, I took another picture--now, just let me back up here--I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera. http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z344.jpg There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack; Take your choice as to which you can grasp! The "drawn" picture, or the written word! Before leaving the subject of the 12/5/63 SS work and the 3-shot/3-hit, perhaps another "slight" sleight-of-hand episode is worth also bringing out. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/simmons.htm Mr. SIMMONS. The marksmen were instructed to take as much time as they desired at the first target, and then to fire--at the first target, being at 175 feet--to then fire at the target emplaced at 240 feet, and then at the one at 265 feet. Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state where you derived these distances? Mr. SIMMONS. These distances were the values given on the survey map which were given to us. Mr. EISENBERG. Are you sure they were not the values I gave to you myself? Mr. SIMMONS. I stand corrected. These are values--we were informed that the numbers on the survey map were possibly in error. The distances are very close, however. Mr. EISENBERG. Could you explain your reference to a map? You have made several references to that. Mr. SIMMONS. I refer to the survey plat which is dated December 5, 1963. Mr. EISENBERG. And how were you supplied with that? Mr. SIMMONS. To the best of my knowledge, you gave it to one of the employees in my office. Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, this is a plat made by a licensed surveyor of the area immediately adjoining the Texas School Book Depository. I would like to introduce it into evidence solely to show the basis which Mr. Simmons was using in his test, and not for the truth, of the measurements which are shown in here. Mr. McCLOY. It may be received. Mr. EISENBERG. That would be Commission 585. (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 585 and received in evidence.) http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0144b.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- First off: The respective distances, as calculated during the US SS work which culminated on 12/5/63 were: Shot#1:--------------------------------184 feet Shot#2:--------------------------------267 feet Shot#3:--------------------------------294 feet And, CE585 IS NOT the SS Survey Plat of 12/5/63. It is in fact a second generation plat done for the FBI at which has a revision date of 2/7/64 located in the bottom center of the plat. This was done when the FBI was attempting to tell us their version of the lie in which shot#1 and shot#3 were left in their original impact locations, and shot#2 aka Z313 was moved back up Elm St. towards the School Book Depository bldg approximately 24.5 feet prior to the actual impact point at Z313. Part of what you can not see on this survey plat is that Shot#2 is platted at elevation 419.07, which is well before JFK had passed the yellow mark on the curb of Elm St. located at Mary Moorman and Jean Hill. CE585 is a copy of the "Hoover Lie" survey work of 2/7/64 in which it was going to be told about the first bullet striking JFK and only lodging in his back (which was true), the second shot hitting JBC, and then the third shot hitting JFK. The slant/slope distances on this survey for the shots are: 1. 184 feet 2. 242 feet (267 feet to Z313 on original SS Survey before being changed by JEH & Company) 3. 294 feet. It is noteworthy that Eisenberg "changed" the distances which he gave to Ronald Simmons in that he gave them a distance of 265 feet for the longest shot (which is in fact only 2-feet short of the actual Z313 distance), completely deleted the longer 294' shot, even though it is in fact shown on the FBI Plat of 2/7/64, and gave the phony 240' (242') distance of where JEH & Company had made an attempt to move Z313 to. What makes this even more glaring is the drawing which Eisenberg had made in March of 1964 which clearly demonstrated that the exact impact location of Z313 was known as he had written down the street elevation "418" for this shot. (elevation of Z313 was 418.48. by WC work and 418.35 by the SS Survey work. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0139a.htm Truthfully folks! This is all so obvious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 Thanks Tom,I think your first few sentences are pretty clear. chris Chris; This too has always given me problems. Especially since it is virtually in the exact vicinity of where the third shot was. http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg Tom, I think the problem first arises from MPI mislabeling frame 342 as 341, and then forgets to include 341? Just another coincidence. But wait, there is something about the curb that doesn't seem right. When we put in a somewhat discernable frame 341, and take a look at the crack in the curb, it appears to change angles. How can that be? I've got it, he changed camera angles in 1/18 of a second. Is the "jig" up???? thanks chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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