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Triple Underpass.., Posted But did not show on Forum


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You're welcome, William.

The laborious, yet very productive, precise establishing of your position, and movements, and timing of movements, was a most worthwhile exercise as a basis for further study. Your patient, and to the point responses, greatly appreciated. (I've got the results saved to resume the discussion when the time comes. Let's hope the full Cancellare doesn't stay witheld too much longer.)

Frank also made some interesting studies at the time regarding the shadows cast by the trees etc.

An other issue that relates to the shots is the peculiarities of the underpass as a series of regular sound reflectors that may deal with ear witness statements.

Progress is being made in dealing with a number of issues here, and that you have choosen to resume posting is no doubt welcomed by others as well.

_________

William: "Have you ever notice how threads get hijacked?"

I have indeed noticed how sometimes threads are led away from their original intent, often by a long series of one/two line squabbles with wholesale repeats of growing quotes that swamp the topics, and the relevant stuff gets buried, bypassed, and, if not actually deliberately ignored, thery're easily missed in the process of being relegated to past pages by the sheer volume of the 'irrelevancies'. One page only shows about 14 posts and stuff is easily 'buried', (sometimes in a matter of many minutes when the topic is 'hot'), and it's a frustrating attempt to find posts and responses to them, particularly when one has periods of delays between visiting the Forum, and then trying to 'catch up'.

Also noted is the oft studied refusal to deal with the difficult questions, (perhaps, in some cases, with a hope they will get swamped by endless repetitions of already established, or dealt with, issues).

There are also always new members who need attention as well, even though the issues raised, have by many long since been dealt with and a reluctance to revisit them exists, particularly if they shake fundations of theories or beliefs. Fortunately many are helpful and encouraging. A certain persistence is nevertheless essential.

There are many who do, as a matter of course, maintain focus, and despite the difficulties, 'soldier on'. Hopefully, ultimately, they make the difference. At least, (for me) often it's their persistence that sustains one through the discouraging periods.

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You're welcome, William.

The laborious, yet very productive, precise establishing of your position, and movements, and timing of movements, was a most worthwhile exercise as a basis for further study. Your patient, and to the point responses, greatly appreciated. (I've got the results saved to resume the discussion when the time comes. Let's hope the full Cancellare doesn't stay witheld too much longer.)

Frank also made some interesting studies at the time regarding the shadows cast by the trees etc.

An other issue that relates to the shots is the peculiarities of the underpass as a series of regular sound reflectors that may deal with ear witness statements.

Progress is being made in dealing with a number of issues here, and that you have choosen to resume posting is no doubt welcomed by others as well.

_________

William: "Have you ever notice how threads get hijacked?"

I have indeed noticed how sometimes threads are led away from their original intent, often by a long series of one/two line squabbles with wholesale repeats of growing quotes that swamp the topics, and the relevant stuff gets buried, bypassed, and, if not actually deliberately ignored, thery're easily missed in the process of being relegated to past pages by the sheer volume of the 'irrelevancies'. One page only shows about 14 posts and stuff is easily 'buried', (sometimes in a matter of many minutes when the topic is 'hot'), and it's a frustrating attempt to find posts and responses to them, particularly when one has periods of delays between visiting the Forum, and then trying to 'catch up'.

Also noted is the oft studied refusal to deal with the difficult questions, (perhaps, in some cases, with a hope they will get swamped by endless repetitions of already established, or dealt with, issues).

There are also always new members who need attention as well, even though the issues raised, have by many long since been dealt with and a reluctance to revisit them exists, particularly if they shake fundations of theories or beliefs. Fortunately many are helpful and encouraging. A certain persistence is nevertheless essential.

There are many who do, as a matter of course, maintain focus, and despite the difficulties, 'soldier on'. Hopefully, ultimately, they make the difference. At least, (for me) often it's their persistence that sustains one through the discouraging periods.

Right on , John.

Tosh is the goods.

If you look about you find gold dust. For example, from Oct 19, 2004, 07:56 PM :

I have said that nobody was on the bridge at the time the President came into the zone. I do remember that there were people above the President on the north side on the underpass, on the bridge, about six or seven as the Limo passed under. I remember Sergio and I questioned that.

"... there were people above the president on the bridge after he had been shot...". (de-briefing West Palm Beach Florida to Rex Beardsley and Bob Bennette and Tracy Barns, report of debriefing transmitted to field HQ, Miami to Bill Harvery, JMWAVE HQ., November 25, 1963) Miami Desk Miami Florida)

The FBI told me in Denver at a latter datem ( Feb 1964) that I was wrong. They said.

"That area above the bridge had been cleared of people before the President came into the Plaza. Nobody was on the bridge. That area had been cleared by the Secret Service before the President got to the Plaza. Why do you insist on incerting yourself into this? You know giving false (FAG) information to a Federal officer can keep you in this jail for a very long time?" (ref; Scott Warner, SAC interview at Denver County Jail Feb. 1964)

"FAG" charge. "False Information to Government officials".

However, I do know that the South side of the underpass was cleared and nobody was there. The north side is another matter. I have questioned over the years photos of this area and of the people on the underpass. One set of prints shows nobody there... another set before the limo came into the zone shows people on the bridge and another six seconds after the fatal shot does not show anyone on the south side or above the President as he and the Limo crossed under. I remember a man leaning over the back of the Limo and notice that people were on the bridge above the limo as it past under. That was just before we reached the man in the pickup truck. Sergio and I were in shock for a few seconds before we started walking away toward the underpass. Most of the people on the north side of the "Tripple Underpass" crossed over the bridge and watched the Limo head for Parkland.

note: It has been said that a south knoll shot would put Jackie and the Texas Gov. in the path and a shot could not have comefull Cancellare from the south side of the Plaza. I might point out the slight curve to the southwest at the point of impact about four or five degrees just before it makes a more of a turn, about ten or twenty degrees) before reaching the underpass. If you draw a line and the Limo is even with Main, then the line would rule out a south shot, but turn the limo five degrees to the left (south) and what do you have? A second or two and.., "An open window for a clean shot"...: Check it out. Thank you Tosh.

Thx, Tosh. Keep well.

John,

BTW, what's deal on the full Cancellare? Withheld? Who? ;)

Miles

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I don't know what aerial photo is being referred to in post #1 and would like to see it. Below are photos of the tracks north and south from 1964 (WC exhibit 2214). These photos aren't clear, but it looks to me like the crossties are not on any raised bed nor are they unusually high off the ground. But it looks like the rails themselves are higher than usual. What do others make of it?

underpasswc.jpg

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I don't know what aerial photo is being referred to in post #1 and would like to see it. Below are photos of the tracks north and south from 1964 (WC exhibit 2214). These photos aren't clear, but it looks to me like the crossties are not on any raised bed nor are they unusually high off the ground. But it looks like the rails themselves are higher than usual. What do others make of it?

underpasswc.jpg

2004 view fwiw

post-675-1184206729_thumb.jpg

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You're welcome, William.

_________

"....... ...........

BTW, what's deal on the full Cancellare? Withheld? Who? ;) ...".

Miles

I will try to tell you what I was told by three sources some years ago.

1990 "..... the photo negative in question was lost or misplaced by Life Magazine sometime before the Church Committee started their investigation...".. around '72' I think.

I was told they had obtained the negative to work on a new form of enhancement of the south knoll because someone had said they were standing next to a fork in a tree. I was told "Life paid for the negative",and it was their property and would not release it public". 1993.

A fine researcher, who by the way lost everything in his investigation of this matter (JFK Investigation) made attempts to obtain the original negative, but could only obtain a print. He turned this over to a XXWilson but nothing ever came from the "photo expert" this researcher hired but would not release his findings to the researcher.m. Although he said many times his work was complete and there were people at the location in question he failed to release his findings... then he died.. Other people know the history of the Cancellare and how and why it was croped. Why is this picture shrouded in mystery.

In 1977 Senator Berry Goldwater and his security adviser were told about the two people standing at the fork of the tree and I think Barnard Finisterwald Jr and Garry Shaw provided Goldwater a croped copy of the Cancellare photo which apeared in Shaws early 70's book. However, Goldwater and his people could not get a clean copy of the photo.

It was at this time that I told the Senator and his staff about John Roselli and my concern about my safety and that of Roselli. The Senator made arrangements for me to meet with the Phoenix FBI to voice my concerns. This I did and the documentation is on the internet. (toshplumlee.info) The FBI re-wrote the information but left Rosellie's name out of the information and refered to me as "The Informat" and then went into a series of "...he said... he alledged.." type information to discredit. If one lookes close at those documents you will notice that this FBI conversation was held at the Phoenix FBI 1976-78) where I expressed my concern for Rosellie. However the FBI refered to Roselli as the unnamed source, but some weeks after Rosellie's death the FBI came to my home in Phoenix wanting to know what all I knew about Rosellie.

( ref; 1981 FOIA http://toshplumlee.info/pdf/FBI81a.PDF note the date.., three days before Rosellie was reported missing)

( ref; 1998 FOIA http://toshplumlee.info/pdf/fbi9396.PDF ... this was a few days after the murder of Roselli ... if I had not named Rosellie in the first set of interviews in July, then why did the FBI come to my house and ask me about Rosellie? ) point being FBI had notice of concern for Roselli before he was abducted and murdered. Its in the FBI record before the fact.

Because of the nature of the story told to Goldwater's staff about the abort team of the assassinatiopn and pending death of Rosellie , Goldwater's Security Advisom XXX Lombordo(phoe)contacted the Phoenix FBI and the Phoenix Organized Crime Detail. Full reports were given to these people. Shortly thereafter I was asked by the FBI to come into their office for interview. However the record has been slanted in their documents, in my view a form of obstruction of justice... as I see it. It, stated I contacted them when in fact they contacted me via way of Goldwater. My CIA case officer went crazy and SITF.

note: other information such as names and dates were blacked out of the documents... names like Martino..... Barns..... Harvey.... WAVE Station, Dallas safehouses, ect.. however Rosellie was not blacked out.. Rosellie at one point according to the FBI was the "unnamed source which they said I did not name at the time", as they FBI stated in the doctored documents. All this was before the HSCA was formed and I had been talking also with Congressmen Tomas Downing about the Rosellie file and the Abort Team and my safety. (Rosellie/Plumlee FBI 62-2116 and PHX-72 and FFBI 302. other files were destoried by the FBI as they stated in their 1998 FOIA releases.

Today it is said I was the source for the information thderefore it is not creditable. The documents have been slanted to discredit the source as the secord set of documents released some years after (1998) the first FBI releases (1981) show.

I was question at length by the Phoenix and Denver FBI at their request but the documents state "I contacked them". This was all a few days before Roselli was murdered and lasted into the weeks after his death. In 1981 my house in Grant Colorado was "firebombed and I lost everything in the fire.(ref; Rocky Mountain News, Aug 1980) Documents were burned and taken by unknown sources from the gutted house. Some years later one of thes burned documents a letter written to Robert Morrow of Congressmen Tom Downing's staff was released by the FBI to me (copies posted on this site some years ago)

Sorry, T too drift off topic but the Cancellare photo is a thorn in the side of the CIA and Hoover's old FBI Department of Justice. I have to ask at this late date Why?

Eleven of my friends have died under strange circumstances from 1964 until 1986 all fairly young (50-60's) John Rosellie and Howard Hunt were my friends at the time. I was a young man then and times were different. It was a time when our Government could do no wrong. A time when we Americans thought what we were told by our elected officials and Commanders was the truth. Boy have we sunk to new lows in this day and time.

What have I learn from all this? They are all Crooks and should be taken out and............................. you fill in the blanks.

Now its time to "hi-jack this thread and also to start a name calling he said I said they said and cause others to get fed up with the crap and move on...

Its not my loss.... but yours. I have tried to talk but but have been blocked... Nothing has changed...

Thx, Tosh, for valuable post. I think I found the Cancellare photo you describe. Uncropped. In this regard, can you send me a PM, please? Thx.

Miles

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  • 8 months later...

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