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Who are Leopoldo & Angelo?


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It seems widely accepted that Leopoldo is Bernardo De Torres.

I don't have a strong opinion about it but he does fit Odio's description.

Whereas I've seen Angelo ID'd as both Angel Murgado/Kennedy and Edwin Collins.

For example, there even seems to be contradiction within Spartacus (which is unusual):

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKtorres.htm

"The following day Leopoldo phoned Odio and told her that Leon was a former Marine and that he was an expert marksman. He added that Leon had said “we Cubans, we did not have the guts because we should have assassinated Kennedy after the Bay of Pigs”. It is believed that De Torres was Leopoldo and Edwin Collins was Angelo."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmurgado.htm

"Bernardo de Torres and Murgado visited Sylvia Odio on 25th September, 1963. When they arrived, Lee Harvey Oswald was also in the apartment."

What do you all think about Angelo's identity?

I'm confused about the prospect of Edwin Collins as Angelo. Wasn't Collins American? And Odio described the two as Latin, probably Mexican. Did Collins have a Latin background? There's a photo of him at the first link and it looks like he could appear to be Mexican or Cuban.

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Myra,

I'm confused about the prospect of Edwin Collins as Angelo.

Based on Sylvia Odio's description, I don't think Edwin Collins was Angelo.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the shorter man was about how tall, would you say? Was he taller or shorter than Oswald?

Mrs. ODIO. Shorter than Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. About how much, could you guess?

Mrs. ODIO. Five feet seven, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. So he could have been 2 or 3 inches shorter than Oswald?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. He weighed about how much, would you say?

Mrs. ODIO. 170 pounds, something like that, because he was short, but he was stocky, and he was the one that had the strange complexion.

Mrs. LIEBELER. Was it pock marked, would you say?

Mrs. ODIO. No; it was like it wasn't, because he was, oh, it was like he had been in the sun for a long time.

Steve Thomas

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  • 1 year later...
This is one of the most contested areas of testimony.

If Morales was Leopoldo,then

While there is a considerable amount of controversy regarding Richard Case Nagell, there is, at least in several researchers opinion a considerable amount of credibility to his claims. I also feel that some of the claims of R.C. Nagell are verifiable, to some degree as to whether the information can be corroborated.

In this regard, considerable attention should be given to these claims.

Among those claims or clues, if you will, regards Angel and Leopoldo.

An August 12, 1974 letter from Nagell to Bernard "Bud" Fensterwald, Jr., states in part...In September 1963, "Laredo" (a code name unknown to Oswald) met with Oswald in Jackson Square in New Orleans, where both were photographed. ["Laredo," as described in Chapter Thirteen, was by Nagell's admitted code name for meetings with his Soviet contact]. Photos of two of Oswald's associates whom I shall call "Leopoldo" and "Angel," were displayed to Oswald. Oswald was informed that neither Leopoldo nor Angel were agents of Cuban G-2 (as the Direccion General de Inteligencia was then called), a story they had strapped on Oswald the previous month. He was informed that the two were in fact counterrevolutionaries known to be connected to a violence-prone faction of a CIA-financed group operating in Mexico City [and elsewhere], that in 1962 both of them had participated in a bomb-throwing incident directed against an employee of the Cuban Embassy there, that both were well known to Cuban and Mexican authorities, and of course, to the CIA....... 1

1 page 437, The Man Who Knew Too Much - Dick Russell - Carroll and Graf - 1993

Since the passage of time has allowed for access to information hitherto not known, it is no great feat to ascertain who "those persons" were.

So, who were they?

Note: In the updated and revised edition of the same book, the same passage is essentially the same, however the passage from the original contains more details such as the parentheses passage in the second sentence.

A degree of corroboration regarding the photograph, alluded to above is contained on page of the revised and updated version of the same book, cites Peter Dale Scott’s interview of a Jackson Square “art dealer” who remembered exactly such an event taking place.

The key to unlocking at least one secret of the Kennedy Assassination concerns Oswald’s whereabouts and activities between August 23 through 27th 1963

See The Man Who Knew Too Much updated version page 275....

CUESTA DEL VALLE, ANTONIO "TONY"

Sources:

CD 205 (152); CD 1107 (1057-59); HSCA VOL X (100); The Fish is Red, Hinckle & Turner (155-56); Life April 12, 1963; List of "Cuban Raiders Ordered Not to Depart"; International Terrorism and the CIA, V. Syrokomsky (90); New York Times, 12/4/92, p. A13; HSCA Reel 5, Box 3, Folder F, G, H (AMKW 4)

Mary's

Comments:

FBI File No. 105-11722 (L-66); 97-3728; A11 885 764; 105-84265; 109-584; R-592; indefinite parole; served with notice not to depart 3/30/63; restricted to land limits of Dade Co., Fla; also known as: Antonio Cuesta Del Valle; former Havana businessman who led attacks on Cuba in Sept 1963 and early 1963 for Alpha 66. Had been intelligence officer for Castro's police before defecting to U.S. in 1960. Founded Comandos L (Comandos Libertad). Imprisoned in 1966 following the loss of his sight and left hand in attack on Cuba and held for 12 years (until 1978) when Cuba released him. Died Dec 2, 1992 in Miami. Survived by wife Maria; son, Inocencio; daughter, Cynthia.

At the risk of sounding arrogant, it seems pretty cut and dried to me...

And if the preceding information, does not seem conclusive, it should be noted that when Syliva Odio was shown photographs of Lawrence Howard, Loran Hall and William Seymour, she did not indicate she was familiar with those faces.

See

Larry Hancock post on the following thread

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...pic=9725&hl

Edited by Robert Howard
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Robert,

Interesting post indeed.

One of the more curious characters one could research is Tony Cuesta. He connects early (1960 - 1962) with the CIA before they allegedly let him go.

In mid 1962, the FBI got wind of (and foiled) a plot by Larry LaBorde to blow up a Panamanian ship docked in Miami. Other conspirators were to be Tony Cuesta, Gerry Hemming and Ed Collins. This was then to be followed by a raid on a CIA storage warehouse in Key West which contained weapons and radio equipment.

What is really curious about Cuesta is his wife Lourdes (married to him during the September 1963 period). She was also known as Maria Luise Viza Blanco.

She crossed paths with a man named Chiafe Homero Saker who at the time was connected with the New York Cuba Mission. He was later to become her contact.

After Cuesta was captured and imprisoned in Cuba, Lourdes was allowed to visit him (she came into Cuba via contacts in Mexico City). If I remember correctly, this was in the mid 1967 period.

The FBI later told the Miami CIA Station that while Lourdes was in Cuba, she had been recruited by the CuIS (Cuban Intelligence Service). Mmm.

BTW, during that September 1963 period, Tony Cuesta's main associate was Ramon Font. It was also at this time that Font and Hemming had a major falling out. I don't have the details but maybe Lee Forman can chime in here.

FWIW.

James

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It seems widely accepted that Leopoldo is Bernardo De Torres.

I don't have a strong opinion about it but he does fit Odio's description.

Whereas I've seen Angelo ID'd as both Angel Murgado/Kennedy and Edwin Collins.

For example, there even seems to be contradiction within Spartacus (which is unusual):

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKtorres.htm

"The following day Leopoldo phoned Odio and told her that Leon was a former Marine and that he was an expert marksman. He added that Leon had said “we Cubans, we did not have the guts because we should have assassinated Kennedy after the Bay of Pigs”. It is believed that De Torres was Leopoldo and Edwin Collins was Angelo."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmurgado.htm

"Bernardo de Torres and Murgado visited Sylvia Odio on 25th September, 1963. When they arrived, Lee Harvey Oswald was also in the apartment."

What do you all think about Angelo's identity?

I'm confused about the prospect of Edwin Collins as Angelo. Wasn't Collins American? And Odio described the two as Latin, probably Mexican. Did Collins have a Latin background? There's a photo of him at the first link and it looks like he could appear to be Mexican or Cuban.

Myra;

The "Angelo" question was pretty well resolved by Gerry Hemming. And, although GPH's statements should rightfully be questioned, I do not question the son of Angelo Murgado/aka Angel Kennedy.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...=5333&st=30

My father has for lack of a better word, made me his representative, so I speak for him when I write this. When my father went to meet with Silvia, he has assured me that Oswald was already in the apartment. The only reason Oswald was known to my father was the same way most of New Orleans new him...through the newspaper and other media outlets. Oswald if you remember was working very hard at getting himself noticed. My father says he never even shock hands with Oswald nor did he speak with him as his business was with Sylvia. At no time did my father have any type of association with Oswald besides this brief encounter.

Amaury Murgado (son of Angel/Angelo Murgado) is a retired NCO from the United States Army Special Forces.

His credentials are impeccable, and were it that his father was anything other than a true patriot of the Cuban Freedom fighters, then one can be assured that Amaury Murgado would never have been entrusted to the postion which he has ultimately received.

This is one of those areas in which the knowledge of GPH has helped to eliminate suspicion from some (such as Angel Murgado), while also pointing to those aspects of LHO's activities which demonstrate that someone was "feeding" him information which he could use to attempt to point the finger at the Cuban Freedom Fighters.

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It seems widely accepted that Leopoldo is Bernardo De Torres.

I don't have a strong opinion about it but he does fit Odio's description.

Whereas I've seen Angelo ID'd as both Angel Murgado/Kennedy and Edwin Collins.

For example, there even seems to be contradiction within Spartacus (which is unusual):

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKtorres.htm

"The following day Leopoldo phoned Odio and told her that Leon was a former Marine and that he was an expert marksman. He added that Leon had said “we Cubans, we did not have the guts because we should have assassinated Kennedy after the Bay of Pigs”. It is believed that De Torres was Leopoldo and Edwin Collins was Angelo."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmurgado.htm

"Bernardo de Torres and Murgado visited Sylvia Odio on 25th September, 1963. When they arrived, Lee Harvey Oswald was also in the apartment."

What do you all think about Angelo's identity?

I'm confused about the prospect of Edwin Collins as Angelo. Wasn't Collins American? And Odio described the two as Latin, probably Mexican. Did Collins have a Latin background? There's a photo of him at the first link and it looks like he could appear to be Mexican or Cuban.

Myra;

The "Angelo" question was pretty well resolved by Gerry Hemming. And, although GPH's statements should rightfully be questioned, I do not question the son of Angelo Murgado/aka Angel Kennedy.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...=5333&st=30

My father has for lack of a better word, made me his representative, so I speak for him when I write this. When my father went to meet with Silvia, he has assured me that Oswald was already in the apartment. The only reason Oswald was known to my father was the same way most of New Orleans new him...through the newspaper and other media outlets. Oswald if you remember was working very hard at getting himself noticed. My father says he never even shock hands with Oswald nor did he speak with him as his business was with Sylvia. At no time did my father have any type of association with Oswald besides this brief encounter.

Amaury Murgado (son of Angel/Angelo Murgado) is a retired NCO from the United States Army Special Forces.

His credentials are impeccable, and were it that his father was anything other than a true patriot of the Cuban Freedom fighters, then one can be assured that Amaury Murgado would never have been entrusted to the postion which he has ultimately received.

This is one of those areas in which the knowledge of GPH has helped to eliminate suspicion from some (such as Angel Murgado), while also pointing to those aspects of LHO's activities which demonstrate that someone was "feeding" him information which he could use to attempt to point the finger at the Cuban Freedom Fighters.

I did not update my previous post because I needed to obtain more information regarding Dick Russell's reference to the "bomb throwing incident at the Cuban Embassy," which is connected to the two Cuban's who were with Oswald at various times and whom Nagell stated were trying to recruit Oswald into the assassination of President Kennedy.

Russell writes.....As we have seen, Nagell would never reveal the true identities of "Angel" and "Leopoldo"

--- the two Cuban exiles who he said had decieved into believing they were Castro operatives. Instead, on several occasions when I prodded him, Nagell had cleverly steered the conversation toward a man named Tony Questa --- indicating that this man possessed the knowledge that he himself chose not to express. Cuesta, as noted earlier, had been taken prisoner in Cuba during a raid in 1966. Cuesta was blinded [in an explosion] and spent most of his time in the hospital. Escalante recalled. In 1978, he was among a group of imprisoned exiles released through an initiative of the Carter administration. "A few days before he was to leave," according to Escalante, "I had several conversations with Cuesta. He volunteered, "I want to tell you something very important, but I do not want this made public because I am returning to my family in Miami --- and this could be very dangerous.........In a declaration he is said to have written for the Cubans, Cuesta named two other exiles as having been involved in plotting the Kennedy assassination. Their names were Eladio del Valle and Herminio Diaz Garcia."

Robert: In this section, Russell points out that Diaz Garcia was a "Mulatto" or "dark skinned" Cuban, and notes the fact that on November 22, 1963 there were two incidents in which a person is cited whose description is similar to Herminio Diaz Garcia, i.e. in both Arnold Rowland's description of a shooter other than Oswald, in the TSBD, and also in Roger Craig and three other persons description of the Rambler that departed from the TSBD, with either Oswald or an Oswald double in the passenger seat.

Furthermore, another DRE member came to Miami using a recently expired Cuban passport in October 1961. After the CIA requested a FBI check, which apparently came back positive Juan Francisco Blanco-Fernandez was approved for a special six-month trainig program at Fort Jackson, South Carolina. That, as we have seen is where wher Nagell said "Leopoldo" went for training.

Privately, Carlos Lechuga --- who was Cuban Ambassador to Mexico prior to taking the United Nations post early in 1963 --- verified another of Nagell's allegations: There had indeed been a bomb-throwing incident by Cuban exiles directed against an employee of the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City during 1962.

From: The Man Who Knew Too Much Carroll & Graf 2003 Edition. Excerpts from pages 459-462.

Edited by Robert Howard
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It seems widely accepted that Leopoldo is Bernardo De Torres.

I don't have a strong opinion about it but he does fit Odio's description.

Whereas I've seen Angelo ID'd as both Angel Murgado/Kennedy and Edwin Collins.

For example, there even seems to be contradiction within Spartacus (which is unusual):

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKtorres.htm

"The following day Leopoldo phoned Odio and told her that Leon was a former Marine and that he was an expert marksman. He added that Leon had said “we Cubans, we did not have the guts because we should have assassinated Kennedy after the Bay of Pigs”. It is believed that De Torres was Leopoldo and Edwin Collins was Angelo."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmurgado.htm

"Bernardo de Torres and Murgado visited Sylvia Odio on 25th September, 1963. When they arrived, Lee Harvey Oswald was also in the apartment."

What do you all think about Angelo's identity?

I'm confused about the prospect of Edwin Collins as Angelo. Wasn't Collins American? And Odio described the two as Latin, probably Mexican. Did Collins have a Latin background? There's a photo of him at the first link and it looks like he could appear to be Mexican or Cuban.

Myra;

The "Angelo" question was pretty well resolved by Gerry Hemming. And, although GPH's statements should rightfully be questioned, I do not question the son of Angelo Murgado/aka Angel Kennedy.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...=5333&st=30

My father has for lack of a better word, made me his representative, so I speak for him when I write this. When my father went to meet with Silvia, he has assured me that Oswald was already in the apartment. The only reason Oswald was known to my father was the same way most of New Orleans new him...through the newspaper and other media outlets. Oswald if you remember was working very hard at getting himself noticed. My father says he never even shock hands with Oswald nor did he speak with him as his business was with Sylvia. At no time did my father have any type of association with Oswald besides this brief encounter.

Amaury Murgado (son of Angel/Angelo Murgado) is a retired NCO from the United States Army Special Forces.

His credentials are impeccable, and were it that his father was anything other than a true patriot of the Cuban Freedom fighters, then one can be assured that Amaury Murgado would never have been entrusted to the postion which he has ultimately received.

This is one of those areas in which the knowledge of GPH has helped to eliminate suspicion from some (such as Angel Murgado), while also pointing to those aspects of LHO's activities which demonstrate that someone was "feeding" him information which he could use to attempt to point the finger at the Cuban Freedom Fighters.

What information, and which 'Cuban Freedom Fighters' ?

-Bill

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It seems widely accepted that Leopoldo is Bernardo De Torres.

I don't have a strong opinion about it but he does fit Odio's description.

Whereas I've seen Angelo ID'd as both Angel Murgado/Kennedy and Edwin Collins.

For example, there even seems to be contradiction within Spartacus (which is unusual):

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKtorres.htm

"The following day Leopoldo phoned Odio and told her that Leon was a former Marine and that he was an expert marksman. He added that Leon had said “we Cubans, we did not have the guts because we should have assassinated Kennedy after the Bay of Pigs”. It is believed that De Torres was Leopoldo and Edwin Collins was Angelo."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmurgado.htm

"Bernardo de Torres and Murgado visited Sylvia Odio on 25th September, 1963. When they arrived, Lee Harvey Oswald was also in the apartment."

What do you all think about Angelo's identity?

I'm confused about the prospect of Edwin Collins as Angelo. Wasn't Collins American? And Odio described the two as Latin, probably Mexican. Did Collins have a Latin background? There's a photo of him at the first link and it looks like he could appear to be Mexican or Cuban.

Myra;

The "Angelo" question was pretty well resolved by Gerry Hemming. And, although GPH's statements should rightfully be questioned, I do not question the son of Angelo Murgado/aka Angel Kennedy.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...=5333&st=30

My father has for lack of a better word, made me his representative, so I speak for him when I write this. When my father went to meet with Silvia, he has assured me that Oswald was already in the apartment. The only reason Oswald was known to my father was the same way most of New Orleans new him...through the newspaper and other media outlets. Oswald if you remember was working very hard at getting himself noticed. My father says he never even shock hands with Oswald nor did he speak with him as his business was with Sylvia. At no time did my father have any type of association with Oswald besides this brief encounter.

Amaury Murgado (son of Angel/Angelo Murgado) is a retired NCO from the United States Army Special Forces.

His credentials are impeccable, and were it that his father was anything other than a true patriot of the Cuban Freedom fighters, then one can be assured that Amaury Murgado would never have been entrusted to the postion which he has ultimately received.

This is one of those areas in which the knowledge of GPH has helped to eliminate suspicion from some (such as Angel Murgado), while also pointing to those aspects of LHO's activities which demonstrate that someone was "feeding" him information which he could use to attempt to point the finger at the Cuban Freedom Fighters.

What information, and which 'Cuban Freedom Fighters' ?

-Bill

which 'Cuban Freedom Fighters' ?

Bay of Pigs survivors!

What information

LHO, according to Murgado, was there waiting when they arrived at the residence. Therefore, unless one is a believer in massive circumstance, then someone would have had to inform LHO of the predicted presence of Anti-Castro Cubans at the location.

In being present with these persons, LHO managed to "cast a smell" on them (along with all of the other false scents/trails which he left) as if he had some connection to the anti-Castro faction.

(Sound Familiar to anyone?)

However, this "coincidental" meeting, assuming that it was not coincidence, points back to a "common ground" which had the ability to manipulate the Anti-Castro faction as well as feed information to LHO as to where and when to be somewhere that he could cast suspicion in their direction.

Just as in many other instances of LHO's actions.

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It seems widely accepted that Leopoldo is Bernardo De Torres.

I don't have a strong opinion about it but he does fit Odio's description.

Whereas I've seen Angelo ID'd as both Angel Murgado/Kennedy and Edwin Collins.

For example, there even seems to be contradiction within Spartacus (which is unusual):

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKtorres.htm

"The following day Leopoldo phoned Odio and told her that Leon was a former Marine and that he was an expert marksman. He added that Leon had said “we Cubans, we did not have the guts because we should have assassinated Kennedy after the Bay of Pigs”. It is believed that De Torres was Leopoldo and Edwin Collins was Angelo."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmurgado.htm

"Bernardo de Torres and Murgado visited Sylvia Odio on 25th September, 1963. When they arrived, Lee Harvey Oswald was also in the apartment."

What do you all think about Angelo's identity?

I'm confused about the prospect of Edwin Collins as Angelo. Wasn't Collins American? And Odio described the two as Latin, probably Mexican. Did Collins have a Latin background? There's a photo of him at the first link and it looks like he could appear to be Mexican or Cuban.

Myra;

The "Angelo" question was pretty well resolved by Gerry Hemming. And, although GPH's statements should rightfully be questioned, I do not question the son of Angelo Murgado/aka Angel Kennedy.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...=5333&st=30

My father has for lack of a better word, made me his representative, so I speak for him when I write this. When my father went to meet with Silvia, he has assured me that Oswald was already in the apartment. The only reason Oswald was known to my father was the same way most of New Orleans new him...through the newspaper and other media outlets. Oswald if you remember was working very hard at getting himself noticed. My father says he never even shock hands with Oswald nor did he speak with him as his business was with Sylvia. At no time did my father have any type of association with Oswald besides this brief encounter.

Amaury Murgado (son of Angel/Angelo Murgado) is a retired NCO from the United States Army Special Forces.

His credentials are impeccable, and were it that his father was anything other than a true patriot of the Cuban Freedom fighters, then one can be assured that Amaury Murgado would never have been entrusted to the postion which he has ultimately received.

This is one of those areas in which the knowledge of GPH has helped to eliminate suspicion from some (such as Angel Murgado), while also pointing to those aspects of LHO's activities which demonstrate that someone was "feeding" him information which he could use to attempt to point the finger at the Cuban Freedom Fighters.

What information, and which 'Cuban Freedom Fighters' ?

-Bill

which 'Cuban Freedom Fighters' ?

Bay of Pigs survivors!

What information

LHO, according to Murgado, was there waiting when they arrived at the residence. Therefore, unless one is a believer in massive circumstance, then someone would have had to inform LHO of the predicted presence of Anti-Castro Cubans at the location.

In being present with these persons, LHO managed to "cast a smell" on them (along with all of the other false scents/trails which he left) as if he had some connection to the anti-Castro faction.

(Sound Familiar to anyone?)

However, this "coincidental" meeting, assuming that it was not coincidence, points back to a "common ground" which had the ability to manipulate the Anti-Castro faction as well as feed information to LHO as to where and when to be somewhere that he could cast suspicion in their direction.

Just as in many other instances of LHO's actions.

Thomas, There were two different Cuban factions or philosophies represented at this supposed ''meeting". JURE (Sylvia) was supposedly not simpatico with the likes of Torres, and or Murgado. Yet even that is not certain, as Sarita's (DRE) associations suggest.

It's still not clear who was zoomin' who there, IMO

-Bill

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It seems widely accepted that Leopoldo is Bernardo De Torres.

I don't have a strong opinion about it but he does fit Odio's description.

Whereas I've seen Angelo ID'd as both Angel Murgado/Kennedy and Edwin Collins.

For example, there even seems to be contradiction within Spartacus (which is unusual):

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKtorres.htm

"The following day Leopoldo phoned Odio and told her that Leon was a former Marine and that he was an expert marksman. He added that Leon had said “we Cubans, we did not have the guts because we should have assassinated Kennedy after the Bay of Pigs”. It is believed that De Torres was Leopoldo and Edwin Collins was Angelo."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmurgado.htm

"Bernardo de Torres and Murgado visited Sylvia Odio on 25th September, 1963. When they arrived, Lee Harvey Oswald was also in the apartment."

What do you all think about Angelo's identity?

I'm confused about the prospect of Edwin Collins as Angelo. Wasn't Collins American? And Odio described the two as Latin, probably Mexican. Did Collins have a Latin background? There's a photo of him at the first link and it looks like he could appear to be Mexican or Cuban.

Myra;

The "Angelo" question was pretty well resolved by Gerry Hemming. And, although GPH's statements should rightfully be questioned, I do not question the son of Angelo Murgado/aka Angel Kennedy.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...=5333&st=30

My father has for lack of a better word, made me his representative, so I speak for him when I write this. When my father went to meet with Silvia, he has assured me that Oswald was already in the apartment. The only reason Oswald was known to my father was the same way most of New Orleans new him...through the newspaper and other media outlets. Oswald if you remember was working very hard at getting himself noticed. My father says he never even shock hands with Oswald nor did he speak with him as his business was with Sylvia. At no time did my father have any type of association with Oswald besides this brief encounter.

Amaury Murgado (son of Angel/Angelo Murgado) is a retired NCO from the United States Army Special Forces.

His credentials are impeccable, and were it that his father was anything other than a true patriot of the Cuban Freedom fighters, then one can be assured that Amaury Murgado would never have been entrusted to the postion which he has ultimately received.

This is one of those areas in which the knowledge of GPH has helped to eliminate suspicion from some (such as Angel Murgado), while also pointing to those aspects of LHO's activities which demonstrate that someone was "feeding" him information which he could use to attempt to point the finger at the Cuban Freedom Fighters.

What information, and which 'Cuban Freedom Fighters' ?

-Bill

which 'Cuban Freedom Fighters' ?

Bay of Pigs survivors!

What information

LHO, according to Murgado, was there waiting when they arrived at the residence. Therefore, unless one is a believer in massive circumstance, then someone would have had to inform LHO of the predicted presence of Anti-Castro Cubans at the location.

In being present with these persons, LHO managed to "cast a smell" on them (along with all of the other false scents/trails which he left) as if he had some connection to the anti-Castro faction.

(Sound Familiar to anyone?)

However, this "coincidental" meeting, assuming that it was not coincidence, points back to a "common ground" which had the ability to manipulate the Anti-Castro faction as well as feed information to LHO as to where and when to be somewhere that he could cast suspicion in their direction.

Just as in many other instances of LHO's actions.

Thomas, There were two different Cuban factions or philosophies represented at this supposed ''meeting". JURE (Sylvia) was supposedly not simpatico with the likes of Torres, and or Murgado. Yet even that is not certain, as Sarita's (DRE) associations suggest.

It's still not clear who was zoomin' who there, IMO

-Bill

Agreed!

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It seems widely accepted that Leopoldo is Bernardo De Torres.

I don't have a strong opinion about it but he does fit Odio's description.

Whereas I've seen Angelo ID'd as both Angel Murgado/Kennedy and Edwin Collins.

For example, there even seems to be contradiction within Spartacus (which is unusual):

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKtorres.htm

"The following day Leopoldo phoned Odio and told her that Leon was a former Marine and that he was an expert marksman. He added that Leon had said “we Cubans, we did not have the guts because we should have assassinated Kennedy after the Bay of Pigs”. It is believed that De Torres was Leopoldo and Edwin Collins was Angelo."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmurgado.htm

"Bernardo de Torres and Murgado visited Sylvia Odio on 25th September, 1963. When they arrived, Lee Harvey Oswald was also in the apartment."

What do you all think about Angelo's identity?

I'm confused about the prospect of Edwin Collins as Angelo. Wasn't Collins American? And Odio described the two as Latin, probably Mexican. Did Collins have a Latin background? There's a photo of him at the first link and it looks like he could appear to be Mexican or Cuban.

Overly concerned/frightened that she {Sylvia Odio} might hurt the Anti-Castro cause, and

with her Cuban 'thought accent' suggested the names, Leon, Angelo and Leopoldo

Leon = Lee Oswald

Angelo = Alonzo {Escruido}, birth name of Lawrence "Larry" Howard, Mexican American

Leopoldo = Lorenzo {Pacillo}, birth name of Loran "Skip" Hall, White/Latin extraction

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What do you all think about Angelo's identity?

I'm confused about the prospect of Edwin Collins as Angelo. Wasn't Collins American? And Odio described the two as Latin, probably Mexican. Did Collins have a Latin background? There's a photo of him at the first link and it looks like he could appear to be Mexican or Cuban.

Overly concerned/frightened that she {Sylvia Odio} might hurt the Anti-Castro cause, and

with her Cuban 'thought accent' suggested the names, Leon, Angelo and Leopoldo

Leon = Lee Oswald

Angelo = Alonzo {Escruido}, birth name of Lawrence "Larry" Howard, Mexican American

Leopoldo = Lorenzo {Pacillo}, birth name of Loran "Skip" Hall, White/Latin extraction

Harry, I am a little confused by your post; who suggested the names?

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It seems widely accepted that Leopoldo is Bernardo De Torres.

I don't have a strong opinion about it but he does fit Odio's description.

Whereas I've seen Angelo ID'd as both Angel Murgado/Kennedy and Edwin Collins.

For example, there even seems to be contradiction within Spartacus (which is unusual):

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKtorres.htm

"The following day Leopoldo phoned Odio and told her that Leon was a former Marine and that he was an expert marksman. He added that Leon had said “we Cubans, we did not have the guts because we should have assassinated Kennedy after the Bay of Pigs”. It is believed that De Torres was Leopoldo and Edwin Collins was Angelo."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmurgado.htm

"Bernardo de Torres and Murgado visited Sylvia Odio on 25th September, 1963. When they arrived, Lee Harvey Oswald was also in the apartment."

What do you all think about Angelo's identity?

I'm confused about the prospect of Edwin Collins as Angelo. Wasn't Collins American? And Odio described the two as Latin, probably Mexican. Did Collins have a Latin background? There's a photo of him at the first link and it looks like he could appear to be Mexican or Cuban.

Myra;

The "Angelo" question was pretty well resolved by Gerry Hemming. And, although GPH's statements should rightfully be questioned, I do not question the son of Angelo Murgado/aka Angel Kennedy.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...=5333&st=30

My father has for lack of a better word, made me his representative, so I speak for him when I write this. When my father went to meet with Silvia, he has assured me that Oswald was already in the apartment. The only reason Oswald was known to my father was the same way most of New Orleans new him...through the newspaper and other media outlets. Oswald if you remember was working very hard at getting himself noticed. My father says he never even shock hands with Oswald nor did he speak with him as his business was with Sylvia. At no time did my father have any type of association with Oswald besides this brief encounter.

Amaury Murgado (son of Angel/Angelo Murgado) is a retired NCO from the United States Army Special Forces.

His credentials are impeccable, and were it that his father was anything other than a true patriot of the Cuban Freedom fighters, then one can be assured that Amaury Murgado would never have been entrusted to the postion which he has ultimately received.

This is one of those areas in which the knowledge of GPH has helped to eliminate suspicion from some (such as Angel Murgado), while also pointing to those aspects of LHO's activities which demonstrate that someone was "feeding" him information which he could use to attempt to point the finger at the Cuban Freedom Fighters.

I did not update my previous post because I needed to obtain more information regarding Dick Russell's reference to the "bomb throwing incident at the Cuban Embassy," which is connected to the two Cuban's who were with Oswald at various times and whom Nagell stated were trying to recruit Oswald into the assassination of President Kennedy.

Russell writes.....As we have seen, Nagell would never reveal the true identities of "Angel" and "Leopoldo"

--- the two Cuban exiles who he said had decieved into believing they were Castro operatives. Instead, on several occasions when I prodded him, Nagell had cleverly steered the conversation toward a man named Tony Questa --- indicating that this man possessed the knowledge that he himself chose not to express. Cuesta, as noted earlier, had been taken prisoner in Cuba during a raid in 1966. Cuesta was blinded [in an explosion] and spent most of his time in the hospital. Escalante recalled. In 1978, he was among a group of imprisoned exiles released through an initiative of the Carter administration. "A few days before he was to leave," according to Escalante, "I had several conversations with Cuesta. He volunteered, "I want to tell you something very important, but I do not want this made public because I am returning to my family in Miami --- and this could be very dangerous.........In a declaration he is said to have written for the Cubans, Cuesta named two other exiles as having been involved in plotting the Kennedy assassination. Their names were Eladio del Valle and Herminio Diaz Garcia."

Robert: In this section, Russell points out that Diaz Garcia was a "Mulatto" or "dark skinned" Cuban, and notes the fact that on November 22, 1963 there were two incidents in which a person is cited whose description is similar to Herminio Diaz Garcia, i.e. in both Arnold Rowland's description of a shooter other than Oswald, in the TSBD, and also in Roger Craig and three other persons description of the Rambler that departed from the TSBD, with either Oswald or an Oswald double in the passenger seat.

Furthermore, another DRE member came to Miami using a recently expired Cuban passport in October 1961. After the CIA requested a FBI check, which apparently came back positive Juan Francisco Blanco-Fernandez was approved for a special six-month trainig program at Fort Jackson, South Carolina. That, as we have seen is where wher Nagell said "Leopoldo" went for training.

Privately, Carlos Lechuga --- who was Cuban Ambassador to Mexico prior to taking the United Nations post early in 1963 --- verified another of Nagell's allegations: There had indeed been a bomb-throwing incident by Cuban exiles directed against an employee of the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City during 1962.

From: The Man Who Knew Too Much Carroll & Graf 2003 Edition. Excerpts from pages 459-462.

Robert

Tried four times to answer yours re Odio, below, but would not take, so sent an e-mail answer.

H. Dean

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In Dick Russell's book "The man that knew too much" there is mention of a tape that Richard Nagell claimed he had in his possession. He offerred (by letter from prison) to hand it over to Jim Garrison as "absolute proof of conspiracy", providedthat certain conditions were met. The tape reportedly was a recording of conversation bewteen four people, that Nagell secretly made. The four people where Nagell, Oswald, "Angel" and another man that Nagel would not identify. The names Sergio Archacha Smith and "Raul" can be heard on the tape. This is all what Nagell said about the tape, which he never turned over. He had given it for safekeeping to afriend in Los Angeles.

The name Raul Salcedo was allegedly one of the aliases used by David Atllee Phillips , according to his nephew Shawn Phillips.

Wim

PS: As for Angel & Leopoldo, I would not rule out David Morales and Cesar Diosdado.

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