Mark Bell Film

[Chris Davidson]

I think it is a perspective problem.

Altgens shooting from the left, Wiegman shooting from the right.

The concrete pillars behind Mrs Hester look similar but are two different pillars.

Chris, Robin, Bernice et al.,

Pardon off topic, but please advise:

Is the running man in this Bell (red arrow) the same man running in Dillard 3?

Does anyone have a better copy of Dillard 3?

Thanks

Miles

Miles,

Yes, that is the same man. It's cameraman Tom Atkins.

Here's what I have for Dillard.

chris

[Robin Unger]

Miles/Chris

This is the best resolution i have.

Click on the image to view full size.

Edited July 21, 2007 by Robin Unger

[Miles Scull]

I think it is a perspective problem.

Altgens shooting from the left, Wiegman shooting from the right.

The concrete pillars behind Mrs Hester look similar but are two different pillars.

Chris, Robin, Bernice et al.,

Pardon off topic, but please advise:

Is the running man in this Bell (red arrow) the same man running in Dillard 3?

Does anyone have a better copy of Dillard 3?

Thanks

Miles

Miles,

Yes, that is the same man. It's cameraman Tom Atkins.

Here's what I have for Dillard.

chris

Chris & Robin,

Super!

I was just wondering because Gary Mack said:

"You asked me to review the Bell film for certain information. His first post-assassination sequence shows JFK in the underpass and his SS car just entering the shadow. Since it took 9 seconds for JFK to reach the underpass, and it only takes five seconds or less to drive through it, I would estimate the time to be +15 seconds at the most.

Using a frame blowup off the original film, I can see two men on the north end of the underpass near the fence. One is wearing a white shirt and the other, standing immediately to his left, is wearing a yellow shirt. Both men appear to be facing to the west at that moment.

As I mentioned on the phone, Dillard 3, shot from Elm & Houston from camera car 3 and looking toward the underpass, shows Sam Holland still on top of the underpass over the south lane. The timing of that picture has long been established as about 40 seconds or more after Z313. "

This Bell frame, then, would time stamp spectators (red oval) looking at the area of the steam pipe & switch box at about 40 seconds.

Chris or Robin, any higher rez on the Bell frames?

THX again

Miles

Edited July 21, 2007 by Miles Scull

[Robin Unger]

[Bill Miller]

This Bell frame, then, would time stamp spectators (red oval) looking at the area of the steam pipe & switch box at about 40 seconds.

Miles

The 6th Floor Museum has the ORIGINAL Mark Bell film. I will repeat what Gary Mack said after seeing these images which are far superior in clarity than Groden's copy ....

Mack writes: "One is wearing a white shirt and the other, standing immediately to his left, is wearing a yellow shirt. Both men appear to be facing to the west at that moment."

I would advise people to get a map of Dealey Plaza and find out which way is west. Once this is done, then one can see that the RR box and steam pipe were to the N/NE of these men. IMO, certain individuals who are constantly and purposely misstating the facts do not help students in their study of the JFK assassination. The Groden copy is so poor that one cannot even see a yellow shirt - let alone any details as to which way these men were looking.

Bill Miller

"Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but no one has a right to be wrong about the facts. Without the facts, your opinion is of no value.” Rene

Dahinden, August 1999.

Edited July 21, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

Thanks Robin.

[As an aside, you might be interested that if you run Lane's film of his interview with Sam Holland

you can do a timing measurement. Bring up your Windows "Adjust Date/Time" clock which has a

second hand sweeper.

When you reach the point in the film where Mark & Sam begin to walk with fairly quick, steady strides to the point

at the picket fence where Sam remembers the trampled muddy area, pause the film. Then, as the clock's

second hand reaches, say, 12, then start the film. Watch as Mark & Sam with uniform speed walk to the

sniper's spot. Bingo! Very odd. You'll find that from steam pipe to the sniper's spot at the fence it takes

Mark & Sam almost exactly 40 seconds to walk this distance in a straight line with one turn to go in between the

cars parked perpendicular to the fence.

Of course, as you can hear Sam say, the parking lot was a sea of cars, bumper to bumper, so that

"you could hardly get through." He had to jump over bumpers & hoods of the cars. The sniper would have had

to have done the same with rifle at port arms, according to Ed Hoffman.

Lane's film with Sam is found here with other info: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/hoffman.htm]

[Miles Scull]

This Bell frame, then, would time stamp spectators (red oval) looking at the area of the steam pipe & switch box at about 40 seconds.

Miles

The 6th Floor Museum has the ORIGINAL Mark Bell film. I will repeat what Gary Mack said after seeing these images which are far superior in clarity than Groden's copy ....

Mack writes: "One is wearing a white shirt and the other, standing immediately to his left, is wearing a yellow shirt. Both men appear to be facing to the west at that moment."

I would advise people to get a map of Dealey Plaza and find out which way is west. Once this is done, then one can see that the RR box and steam pipe were to the N/NE of these men. IMO, certain individuals who are constantly and purposely misstating the facts do not help students in their study of the JFK assassination. The Groden copy is so poor that one cannot even see a yellow shirt - let alone any details as to which way these men were looking.

Bill Miller

"Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but no one has a right to be wrong about the facts. Without the facts, your opinion is of no value.” Rene

Dahinden, August 1999.

This post (above) misstates the facts.

The complete Gary Mack quote is:

"You asked me to review the Bell film for certain information. His first post-assassination sequence shows JFK in the underpass and his SS car just entering the shadow. Since it took 9 seconds for JFK to reach the underpass, and it only takes five seconds or less to drive through it, I would estimate the time to be +15 seconds at the most.

Using a frame blowup off the original film, I can see two men on the north end of the underpass near the fence. One is wearing a white shirt and the other, standing immediately to his left, is wearing a yellow shirt. Both men appear to be facing to the west at that moment.

As I mentioned on the phone, Dillard 3, shot from Elm & Houston from camera car 3 and looking toward the underpass, shows Sam Holland still on top of the underpass over the south lane. The timing of that picture has long been established as about 40 seconds or more after Z-313. "

Clearly Mack is saying that the men were facing west at the 15 second moment.

"Both men appear to be facing west at THAT moment."

The Bell frame shown by me (above) is time stamped at about 40 seconds, NOT 15 seconds, as is seen in the text above the photo frame.

Yes, the men at 15 seconds were facing west. True, as Mack says.

But, at 40 seconds the man in the white shirt had turned about to face N/NE.

This man, along with other nearby onlookers (5 to 15 feet away) would have seen Ed's alleged scene play out. No one saw Ed's actors but Ed who was 225 yards away, unfortunately.

It seems that the poster of the above post has not studied the Bell film or, if he has, then he has not understood it or the FACTS that it establishes. He apparently does not realise or know that the man in the white shirt appears in TWO, not one only, Bell sequences: one, beginning at about 7 seconds after Z-313; and two, beginning at about 40 seconds after Z-313.

This poster has made a fundamental misstatement of FACT, yet he feels free to accuse others (myself) of committing the very error which he himself commits.

Quoting this poster:

"IMO, certain individuals who are constantly and purposely misstating the facts do not help students in their study of the JFK assassination."

This poster who has so callously seen fit to try to impugn & insult others (me), may want to consider that he has actually aptly described himself in his own attack on other members, in his own words!

Enough said.

Indeed, I heartily agree with this statement:

"Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but no one has a right to be wrong about the facts. Without the facts, your opinion is of no value.” Rene

Dahinden, August 1999.

[Bill Miller]

When you reach the point in the film where Mark & Sam begin to walk with fairly quick, steady strides to the point

at the picket fence where Sam remembers the trampled muddy area, pause the film. Then, as the clock's

second hand reaches, say, 12, then start the film. Watch as Mark & Sam with uniform speed walk to the

sniper's spot. Bingo! Very odd. You'll find that from steam pipe to the sniper's spot at the fence it takes

Mark & Sam almost exactly 40 seconds to walk this distance in a straight line with one turn to go in between the

cars parked perpendicular to the fence.

If someone got the Holand and Lane walk from the steam pipe to the point straight out from the fence where the smoke was seen to take 40 seconds on their timer, then I will suggest that they remove the video player from their computer and try reinstalling it again because my player shows Holland and Lane starting their walk after having just crossed under the steam pipe at 2:07 on my RealPlayer clock counter. They then reach the front of the car at the fence at 2:34. A simple arithmetic calculation tells me that 27 seconds have elapsed. I do not recall Hoffman saying the assassin had to take extra time to walk out and around any cars. If anyone knows where Hoffman was supposed to have said this, then please post it or I will assume that it doesn't exist. I believe that Hoffman had said that the man turned away from the fence and walked directly towards the steam pipe and no pictures have been offered showing that this was not possible.

As far as the "fairly quick" steady strides attributed to Holland and Lane - they appear to be no faster than the walk was behind JFK's casket on its way to the rotunda. Once again it appears that a 'figure of speech' is only as accurate as its interpretation from individual to individual. Anyway, the accuracy of these post can be examined and checked quite easily.

Of course, as you can hear Sam say, the parking lot was a sea of cars, bumper to bumper, so that

"you could hardly get through." He had to jump over bumpers & hoods of the cars. The sniper would have had

to have done the same with rifle at port arms, according to Ed Hoffman.

Let me remind this forum that Holland did not take the route that Hoffman stated that the assassin took. Instead, Holland said he went across the parking lot to a point behind the colonnade before turning back to work his way back to the spot where he saw the smoke come through the trees. So it may be possible that the route Holland took did take some stepping over bumpers and so on, but it has nothing to do with walking a straight path from the Hat Man location to the a point just short of the steam pipe. To leave these points out of ones critique does not paint a fair and accurate picture IMO, which may be the goal trying to be achieved by Hoffman's critics. I have posted Holland's statement concerning his route into the parking lot and the length of time it took him to eventually get to the location at the fence where the smoke was seen. Maybe if it is posted enough times ... it will stop certain individuals from misstating the facts and force them to strive for better accuracy.

Mr. STERN - When you ran behind the picket fence after the shots were fired, did you come near the area where the station wagon was parked?

Mr. HOLLAND - Went up to behind the arcade as far as you could go.

Mr. STERN - So, you would have passed where this station wagon was?

Mr. HOLLAND - Yes.

Mr. STERN - And that was later you came behind the station wagon?

Mr. HOLLAND - Oh, maybe 3 or 4 minutes after I got up there, and 3 or 4 minutes after I got up to the end of the fence.

Bill Miller

"Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but no one has a right to be wrong about the facts. Without the facts, your opinion is of no value.” Rene

Dahinden, August 1999.

Edited July 21, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Ken Rheberg]

I think it is a perspective problem.

Altgens shooting from the left, Wiegman shooting from the right.

The concrete pillars behind Mrs Hester look similar but are two different pillars.

Chris, Robin, Bernice et al.,

Pardon off topic, but please advise:

Is the running man in this Bell (red arrow) the same man running in Dillard 3?

Does anyone have a better copy of Dillard 3?

Thanks

Miles

Miles,

Yes, that is the same man. It's cameraman Tom Atkins.

Here's what I have for Dillard.

chris

Chris & Robin,

Super!

I was just wondering because Gary Mack said:

"You asked me to review the Bell film for certain information. His first post-assassination sequence shows JFK in the underpass and his SS car just entering the shadow. Since it took 9 seconds for JFK to reach the underpass, and it only takes five seconds or less to drive through it, I would estimate the time to be +15 seconds at the most.

Using a frame blowup off the original film, I can see two men on the north end of the underpass near the fence. One is wearing a white shirt and the other, standing immediately to his left, is wearing a yellow shirt. Both men appear to be facing to the west at that moment.

As I mentioned on the phone, Dillard 3, shot from Elm & Houston from camera car 3 and looking toward the underpass, shows Sam Holland still on top of the underpass over the south lane. The timing of that picture has long been established as about 40 seconds or more after Z313. "

This Bell frame, then, would time stamp spectators (red oval) looking at the area of the steam pipe & switch box at about 40 seconds.

Chris or Robin, any higher rez on the Bell frames?

THX again

Miles

Miles,

You made statements in the Ed Hoffman thread about the Bell frame (Atkins running after camera car #1) being 40 seconds after Z313. I then asked you in that thread how you came up with that number. You have yet to respond. Now I see you addressing the subject in this thread. Please post your answer to my question in the Hoffman thread so we can keep that discussion going. You appear to be relying on Gary Mack for support of your 40 second opinion. Please be aware that Gary never said that Dillard 3 (which coincides with the Bell frame under discussion) took place at 40 seconds after Z313. Nor did he say that it took place "about" 40 seconds after Z313 as you are saying in this thread. You're misquoting him. I'll wait for your response in the Hoffman thread. If you don't respond there in a reasonable time, then I'll be back in this thread to go over Gary's answer in greater detail. Thanks.

Ken

[Miles Scull]

This Bell frame, then, would time stamp spectators (red oval) looking at the area of the steam pipe & switch box at about 40 seconds.

Miles

The 6th Floor Museum has the ORIGINAL Mark Bell film. I will repeat what Gary Mack said after seeing these images which are far superior in clarity than Groden's copy ....

Mack writes: "One is wearing a white shirt and the other, standing immediately to his left, is wearing a yellow shirt. Both men appear to be facing to the west at that moment."

I would advise people to get a map of Dealey Plaza and find out which way is west. Once this is done, then one can see that the RR box and steam pipe were to the N/NE of these men. IMO, certain individuals who are constantly and purposely misstating the facts do not help students in their study of the JFK assassination. The Groden copy is so poor that one cannot even see a yellow shirt - let alone any details as to which way these men were looking.

Bill Miller

"Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but no one has a right to be wrong about the facts. Without the facts, your opinion is of no value.” Rene

Dahinden, August 1999.

This post (above) misstates the facts.

The complete Gary Mack quote is:

"You asked me to review the Bell film for certain information. His first post-assassination sequence shows JFK in the underpass and his SS car just entering the shadow. Since it took 9 seconds for JFK to reach the underpass, and it only takes five seconds or less to drive through it, I would estimate the time to be +15 seconds at the most.

Using a frame blowup off the original film, I can see two men on the north end of the underpass near the fence. One is wearing a white shirt and the other, standing immediately to his left, is wearing a yellow shirt. Both men appear to be facing to the west at that moment.

As I mentioned on the phone, Dillard 3, shot from Elm & Houston from camera car 3 and looking toward the underpass, shows Sam Holland still on top of the underpass over the south lane. The timing of that picture has long been established as about 40 seconds or more after Z-313. "

Clearly Mack is saying that the men were facing west at the 15 second moment.

"Both men appear to be facing west at THAT moment."

The Bell frame shown by me (above) is time stamped at about 40 seconds, NOT 15 seconds, as is seen in the text above the photo frame.

Yes, the men at 15 seconds were facing west. True, as Mack says.

But, at 40 seconds the man in the white shirt had turned about to face N/NE.

This man, along with other nearby onlookers (5 to 15 feet away) would have seen Ed's alleged scene play out. No one saw Ed's actors but Ed who was 225 yards away, unfortunately.

It seems that the poster of the above post has not studied the Bell film or, if he has, then he has not understood it or the FACTS that it establishes. He apparently does not realise or know that the man in the white shirt appears in TWO, not one only, Bell sequences: one, beginning at about 7 seconds after Z-313; and two, beginning at about 40 seconds after Z-313.

This poster has made a fundamental misstatement of FACT, yet he feels free to accuse others (myself) of committing the very error which he himself commits.

Quoting this poster:

"IMO, certain individuals who are constantly and purposely misstating the facts do not help students in their study of the JFK assassination."

This poster who has so callously seen fit to try to impugn & insult others (me), may want to consider that he has actually aptly described himself in his own attack on other members, in his own words!

Enough said.

Indeed, I heartily agree with this statement:

"Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but no one has a right to be wrong about the facts. Without the facts, your opinion is of no value.” Rene

Dahinden, August 1999.

Ken, did you see this post? It answers some of your questions.

[Alan Healy]

Pat and others,

Don't waste your time on this.

I get to eat crow again.

Sean Murphy has figured out what I could not see.

That is Mrs.Hester's coat in front of her. Tannish color object in Bell.

It appears in the shape of a body form. imo

She rises above it as we see in both Wiegman and Bell.

This sync's with Mr.Hester's appearance in the red box.

The bombshell turned into a marshmallow.

chris

It's still a great spot Chris thank you!

Now I can ammend my opinion & what I wrote in that other thread.

Hester appears to have got up off the floor & looked out the back from his own volition & not because of any of Sitzman's reactions. He may have even have influenced Sitzman to go that way too, even though it appears from her body laungage that she was in half a mind to head that way anyway.

Both he & Sitzman knew very well where that last shot they heard came from & their "statements" to the police on the scene have to be taken with a large dose of salt.

"I heard two shots ring out. Thye [sic] sounded like they came from immediately behind us and over our heads. We did [not?] see the shooting. I immediately turned and looked at the Texas Book Depository building and did not see anyone. The shots sounded like the [sic] definitely came from in or around the building"

Wrong! He went out of his way to look behind him into the car lot.

However, the fact that they moved that far west from the bench is a clear indication that when they(the Hesters) said, "They were in the direct line of fire" they were probably right, to a degree.

The most likely moved to avoid the shots coming from one direction only to hear another shot come from another position closer to them.

What are the chances that their statements have been edited anyway?

About as much chance as the SS planting there own bullet fragments in the limo I'm guessing.

Regards to all & especially those with sharp eyes &/or good common sense.

Alan

[Bernice Moore]

After seeing Chris's clear Bell gif, of Sitzman making a left turn to head towards the pergola entrance, and Zapruder walking over towards the hester's area.

I am now more convinced than ever, that Altgens 8 shows Sitzman and Zapruder standing near the pedestal as they are starting to walk.

Robin...I have asked Bernice to post my latest study which

I think will change your mind about the authenticity of

Altgens 8. After about an hour of looking at light and shadow,

I compared the same area in Wiegman and Altgens...and

ONE AREA POPPED OUT IN SUNLIGHT THAT IS SHADOWED

IN WIEGMAN. I think this is indisputable. Bernice....

Jack

Jack,

The matching parts of the colonnade are marked in red. Two views from different angles - you picked the wrong one is why they do not match.

Bill

WRONG. see new definitive study.

*****************

Jack.......

B.....

[Jack White]

After seeing Chris's clear Bell gif, of Sitzman making a left turn to head towards the pergola entrance, and Zapruder walking over towards the hester's area.

I am now more convinced than ever, that Altgens 8 shows Sitzman and Zapruder standing near the pedestal as they are starting to walk.

Robin...I have asked Bernice to post my latest study which

I think will change your mind about the authenticity of

Altgens 8. After about an hour of looking at light and shadow,

I compared the same area in Wiegman and Altgens...and

ONE AREA POPPED OUT IN SUNLIGHT THAT IS SHADOWED

IN WIEGMAN. I think this is indisputable. Bernice....

Jack

Jack,

The matching parts of the colonnade are marked in red. Two views from different angles - you picked the wrong one is why they do not match.

Bill

WRONG. see new definitive study.

*****************

Jack.......

B.....

THANKS, BERNICE! This study proves beyond any doubt the fakery

of Altgens 8. It is impossible to have NO SUNLIGHT on the post in

Wiegman and SUNLIGHT ON THE SAME POST in Altgens. Remember,

Altgens denied taking this photo! I am in touch with a researcher

who interviewed Altgens in the Sixties. He DENIED taking Altgens 5

and Altgens 8. He told the researcher, who prefers to remain nameless,

that he snapped the limo turning the corner, grabbed his photo bag,

and sprinted to the location where he SHOT ALTGENS 6. He then

shot Altgens 7, and crossed the street, where he saw a family on

the ground, but did not photograph them. Being a veteran newsman,

he sprinted the three blocks to the DMN and turned in the roll of

film for processing, and told reporters what he saw and did. He

SPECIFICALLY DENIED TAKING FIVE AND EIGHT!

Jack

[Bill Miller]

I am now more convinced than ever, that Altgens 8 shows Sitzman and Zapruder standing near the pedestal as they are starting to walk.

Robin...I have asked Bernice to post my latest study which

I think will change your mind about the authenticity of

Altgens 8. After about an hour of looking at light and shadow,

I compared the same area in Wiegman and Altgens...and

ONE AREA POPPED OUT IN SUNLIGHT THAT IS SHADOWED

IN WIEGMAN. I think this is indisputable. Bernice....

Jack

Jack,

The matching parts of the colonnade are marked in red. Two views from different angles - you picked the wrong one is why they do not match.

Bill

WRONG. see new definitive study.

*****************

Jack.......

B.....

In Altgens 8 - we are looking into Charles Hester's face (3A is to their left as we are facing them) At the same moment in time, Wiegman is looking at the Hester's from a side view whereas the space between columns marked 3A is directly behind the Hesters. Get your 'lazy suzans' out and do a background shifting test. (grin~)

Bill

Edited July 23, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Ed O'Hagan]